India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 10 Oct 2014 02:09

Pakistan shocked by massive Indian Army retaliation after govt's fire-at-will directive.

Islamabad may not be awed but it certainly is shocked by the ferocity and volume of the Indian response to ceasefire violations along the International Border in Jammu and Kashmir. Given complete freedom to act by the government, the Indian Army and Border Security Force are firing back at will from every spot the Pakistanis have targeted. The volume and intensity of India's return fire is much higher than the usual calibrated response the Pakistanis have come to expect.

Top government sources told Mail Today that Indian forces are systematically targeting infrastructure and force deployment nodes on the other side.
The damage on the other side is so high that Pakistan is, according to an internal report sent to South Block by the Indian mission in Islamabad, "ducking for cover" (see accompanying report). A media blackout of sorts is in place in Pakistan's affected areas so as to keep a lid on the extent of damage suffered; Pakistan's military establishment is on the verge of losing face, and it doesn't like the evolving situation one bit.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi was the picture of confidence on Thursday evening during a function at Air Chief Arup Raha's residence. "Everything will be all right soon," he said. The government is understood to have also told Indian forces not to seek any flag meeting with the other side, thus sending the signal that it is in no mood to ease situation on the border with Pakistan until the ceasefire violations come to a complete halt. Top government sources said that firing on the International Border was a result of Islamabad's frustration over New Delhi blocking all of its attempts to internationalise the Kashmir issue.

India's massive retaliation to the ceasefire violations has resulted in at least 35 deaths across the border, as per an assessment based on open sources. The government is not prepared to hold any discussion with Pakistan until the firing stops as it wants to underline the point that Islamabad cannot dictate the terms of dialogue.

The border move is no flash in the pan; it comes after a series of deft diplomatic moves. A top government functionary said a series of steps were taken in recent weeks to block every attempt by Pakistan to internationalise the Kashmir issue. To begin with, the UN Military Observer Group (UNMOGIP) was made irrelevant. Prime Minister Narendra Modi's address to the UN General Assembly in New York ensured that Kashmir was not allowed to dominate the agenda. Coupled with some diplomatic engagements with Japan and China, the moves ensured that the Kashmir issue became irrelevant. Calling off the foreign secretary level dialogue with Pakistan because of its continued parleys with Hurriyat leaders also played a part in frustrating Pakistan.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who is busy touring Haryana and Maharashtra where Assembly elections are due, has remained in close touch with the service chiefs to get the updates on the situation on the border. Sources said New Delhi is prepared for a long haul and will not stop at massive retaliation until its objective of keeping the sanctity of ceasefire was met.

Firing along the Line of Control would not have attracted international attention, sources ascribed as the reason for why the International Border was chosen for a series of ceasefire violations. But it hasn't worked, and there is no pressure on India to scale down firing, said sources.

India does not want to give any space to Pakistan that can dilute or weaken New Delhi's basic condition of 'no dialogue in the shadow of gun'. By resorting to tactics like ceasefire violations, Islamabad is only making matters worse, sources said.

Another reason for Pakistan's latest border tantrum is the government's concern that the BJP may do well in the forthcoming Assembly elections in the state and thus have a major say in a possible coalition government.

Sources said there has not been major ceasefire violation along the Line of Control since Wednesday, but the International Border, particularly in the Jammu region, continues to be rocked by firing. Secretary (Border Management) Snehlata Kumar has briefed Home Secretary Anil Goswami who also met National Security Advisor Ajit Doval.

BSF chief D.K. Pathak is on the ground assessing the situation and personally supervising operations. "Pakistani troops are targeting the civilian areas because they think that they are not being able to cause any big damage to the BSF posts," he said adding at present there are no talks about flag meeting. IAF chief Arup Raha also said that firing on the border was "serious" and government wanted quick resolution of the problem.

The latest episode marks a considerable toughening of India's stand on border standoffs. Similar resistance was shown during the stand-off in eastern Ladakh's Chumar area last month. After India refused to budge, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) vacated its positions in the disputed territory and agreed to the pre-1 September situation.

It seems Pakistan's military establishment did not anticipate a strong Indian response to the shelling at the Line of Control (LoC) and International Border. According to an internal report sent by the Indian mission in Islamabad to South Block, Pakistani military establishment is now running for cover in the face of India's retaliation.

Pakistan Rangers have been resorting to unprovoked mortar shelling and heavy firing along the International Border, particularly since Monday. But the Narendra Modi government in New Delhi is firm about disciplining Pakistan. Top sources in the government told Mail Today that NSA Ajit Doval has told the security establishment that the BSF should respond with full force and shouldn't ask for any flag meeting with the Pakistani Rangers.

According to the Indian mission's report, India's retaliation has been so effective that Pakistani television channels have been directed by the Pak GHQ and ISI to completely black out any media coverage of the damage caused on the Pakistani side, and not to show any visual of the casualties or damage on the ground.

Even the Dawn newspaper was asked on Wednesday by the Pak Army commanders to tone down its initial report about a few persons being killed in retaliatory Indian fire. Pakistani diplomatic sources admit that even though they have petitioned the UN, in reality the Pakistan Army has tied itself into knots. Its aim of targeting India was to divert attention of Pakistani people from the internal strife and to test the new Indian government. But the plan has clearly backfired.

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 10 Oct 2014 02:27

I really wish army also marches in and takes over some territory. It's time to take back what belongs to us and end the paki khujli once and for all.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 10 Oct 2014 03:08

Pakistani television channels have been directed by the Pak GHQ and ISI to completely black out any media coverage of the damage caused on the Pakistani side, and not to show any visual of the casualties or damage on the ground.

Can't our spy drones take the images and release them on the internet? Will be fun to watch. How about our raw agents on the ground?

Niranjan · Post by **Niranjan** » 10 Oct 2014 03:11

^^^^^

Surveillance drones have taken pictures of the damage (that is the only way to asses damage - take pictures). They have not been released to the public. Although there was one source that claimed a few things - do not recall which thread.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Oct 2014 05:59

NDTV ‏@ndtv 14m14 minutes ago

Sharp decline in firing along the international border in Jammu. Firing in Hira Nagar reported for 20 minutes last night, no casualties

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Oct 2014 06:03

GAURAV C SAWANT @gauravcsawant · 9h 9 hours ago

Destroy Pak army/Rangers Permanent defences & infrastructure: instruction from brass to troops on ground after a free hand from @PMOIndia

GAURAV C SAWANT @gauravcsawant · 10h 10 hours ago

Pakistan is telling friendly envoys Indian action at border/LoC is 'disproportionate' ) & unexpected (Pak painted itself in a corner?)

GAURAV C SAWANT @gauravcsawant · 9m 9 minutes ago

Both at the International Border & LoC guns were silent last night. Last bullet fired was 2030 hours Samba sector. Hope Good Sense prevails

GAURAV C SAWANT @gauravcsawant · 6m 6 minutes ago

As Pak's national security council meets, there will be sabre rattling, more imp are indicators on ground. Pak for now wants to de-escalate

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Oct 2014 06:25

7 BMos batteries deployed all along IB.Media report News X.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 10 Oct 2014 07:21

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Oct 2014 07:47

I Paki permanent defenses, fortifications are greatly damaged, destroyed then it will be great of BSF/IA wont let them rebuild these structures for long time. Winter will set in 2-3 months and It will be fun to watch Pakirats doing Qalandar Dance Shiv-e-Ring in cold , manning the territory.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 10 Oct 2014 07:56

Jhujar wrote:I Paki permanent defenses, fortifications are greatly damaged, destroyed then it will be great of BSF/IA wont let them rebuild these structures for long time. Winter will set in 2-3 months and It will be fun to watch Pakirats doing Qalandar Dance Shiv-e-Ring in cold , manning the territory.

I hope the BSF will enforce a no-paki buffer zone 2 km wide on the paki side of border/ loc.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 10 Oct 2014 08:35

Rediff is reporting a sharp decline in Paki shelling since last night.

Effect of RM's ultimatum?

khan · Post by **khan** » 10 Oct 2014 08:35

KLNMurthy wrote:
Jhujar wrote:I Paki permanent defenses, fortifications are greatly damaged, destroyed then it will be great of BSF/IA wont let them rebuild these structures for long time. Winter will set in 2-3 months and It will be fun to watch Pakirats doing Qalandar Dance Shiv-e-Ring in cold , manning the territory.
I hope the BSF will enforce a no-paki buffer zone 2 km wide on the paki side of border/ loc.

if they hadn't stopped (I think they did), that might very we'll have been the next step

khan · Post by **khan** » 10 Oct 2014 08:38

Nikhil T wrote:Rediff is reporting a sharp decline in Paki shelling since last night.

Effect of RM's ultimatum?

I hope there is no reduction in our shelling. There must be zero tolerance.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 10 Oct 2014 08:41

Don't want to play spoil sport but veterans like lt gen panag and some others in conversation with him on twitter are not convinced... They say this kind of tactical action were always taken during every ceasefire violation and this time also it is nothing different....the only difference they say is the govt is blowing hot through media...don't know whom to believe.... Any credible chaiwaals????

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 10 Oct 2014 08:47

-- deleted --

[If its crass why post it!Ramana]

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Oct 2014 08:49

I have been on twitter with lt gen panag on China questions. Sad to say he has become partisan and lost his objectivity.

munna · Post by **munna** » 10 Oct 2014 08:53

ramana wrote:I have been on twitter with lt gen panag on China questions. Sad to say he has become partisan and lost his objectivity.

The Chandigarh Club is unhappy to see the power slip away from their cozy clique. For them MMS could do no wrong and anything that his government did is/was the gold standard. Eg Lt. Gen. Panag, Amb KC Singh, Editor Raj Chengappa and so on.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 10 Oct 2014 09:04

munna wrote: The Chandigarh Club is unhappy to see the power slip away from their cozy clique. For them MMS could do no wrong and anything that his government did is/was the gold standard. Eg Lt. Gen. Panag, Amb KC Singh, Editor Raj Chengappa and so on.

Sir u may disagree with them but without credible proof backing your statement of painting them this club or that club is nothing but hit and run job....because these people have served the country for more than 4 decades and one should not take their words lightly...but you can challenge or contradict them with pure facts...no offence ment to any one but there is always the other side even if you disagree with them you have hear them.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 10 Oct 2014 09:09

^^^
You trust Lt Gen Panag and I trust Modi. Depends whom you feel more dependable. Neither of them are placing facts as yet and as a side note, if you say Modi is a politician, Lt Gen Panag is an APP member now.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 10 Oct 2014 09:12

ravip-ji,

The big data point is this: Why werent they running to 3.5, UN before when this happened? They always wanted the 3.5 to get involved in Cashmere, and an incident like this if it had happened before (especially when MMS was in charge), would have been a perfect opportunity for an insertion operation by the 3.5. MMS would have found one backdoor to open or the other. Why did that not happen then? Why now?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 10 Oct 2014 09:15

To me the strange thing is: whenever there is tension on Bhaarath-baki border, there are wails of new-clear flash point from western outlets. This time, there have not been such wails till now. Why?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 10 Oct 2014 09:20

Here are some random thoughts on why nucular phlashpoint has not been used yet:

1) Could be because Bakis have lost credibility in the eyes of average wersten man (and woman).
2) could be that reality of the situation (i.e. where India stands and where Bakis stand) has sunk in to a large number of media folks.
3) Could be that everyone started going "yaaaawnnn, we know, whats news..., hey there is a new child rapist in brishitstain" aka hunting for higher TRP.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Oct 2014 09:26

The problem is the "establishment" is seeing their "aman ki asha" gravy train getting near permanently decimated on long term basis and NM who they thought will be novice proved unmanageable to them and their friends in pakiland. After this escalation it will be very difficult for any Indian Govt to keep quite in the face of serious violations from paki side. NM is drawing long term, hopefully permanent redlines

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 10 Oct 2014 09:38

johneeG wrote:To me the strange thing is: whenever there is tension on Bhaarath-baki border, there are wails of new-clear flash point from western outlets. This time, there have not been such wails till now. Why?

1. Actually new-clear flash point is being used to browbeat India, but after ISIS and AQ headaches, no body wants to strengthen Islamic new-clear weapons in any way (even diplomatically).
2. Ajit Doval staying a few days in US more then Modi. I bet he met have policy makers in US and had given what India is expecting and what US can expect from India. Probably, they will adhere to that unwritten code.
3. After OBL incident, I bet US must have secured most of strategic assets of Pak. Even I read somewhere here in the forum recently that their F-16 cannot be used as Pakis will. So Us have placed tighter controls on Pak. US know that India has intention of spoiling its growth story with Nuclear blackmails and Pak cojones are in US hands, so no worry of escalation.
4. US needs a big ally in Asia, either to tame PRC or Araps, so anything that spoils India's growth story is not in interest of US, so they must have given red lines to big news corporations. No doubt leftists like NYT can cross some yellow lines, but not all lines. All US news papers will depend on US establishment for such global juicy bits.

I bet after PNS Zulfiquar incident (either it may be hijack or an effort to steal new-clear material), US-India must have come to on same page on many things.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Oct 2014 09:53

ramana wrote:I have been on twitter with lt gen panag on China questions. Sad to say he has become partisan and lost his objectivity.

Whats surprising is that he sometimes tweets week old articles from Western News-paupers. I expected him to have first hand "currentest" info.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 10 Oct 2014 10:06

^^^ For what its a worth, info to veterans is as limited as the civilians and the ex- generals are guessing. Unless, one is involved in some capacity, there is no authentic news.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Oct 2014 10:22

Noclear phlashpoint argument is aimed at the Indian public onleee and is effective only till such time that it is believed by the Indian masses. The moment it is ripped apart in public by Modi by perusing retaliation in face of noclear blackmail it stops being a factor except when it is used.

The Pakis, west and the WKK's realized that the only way to preserve the sanctity of the noclear umbrella in the face of Modi's stand is to leave it in the background for the moment.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 10 Oct 2014 10:33

It is interesting to note that Doval Sa'ab visited China separately before Eleven visited for his jinpegs with NaMo. And then Daval Sa'ab stayed back in the US after NaMo had his Nimbu Pani sessions with Om baba. Now, in the biggest flare up since '99, these two have made no noises. Which has ensured that the others in the 3.5 daddydom have also not chirped up.

Maybe, they are busy with the ISIS thing or maybe Doval Sa'ab gave them some food for thought - Gin and Nimbu tonic.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2014 10:34

deejay wrote:^^^ For what its a worth, info to veterans is as limited as the civilians and the ex- generals are guessing. Unless, one is involved in some capacity, there is no authentic news.

Agree 100000%. Unless they are part of think-tank, either MODs or of the Saffron variety, they dont have access to any information from inside... Our newstraders are wailing about lack of access...

People to watch out for WRT inside info are G Partasarathy, Lt Gen S A HASNAIN, Adm Raja Menon, Adm Arun Prakash etc.. They are all part of the the advisory circle and have been blessed to various degrees

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2014 10:37

Desh and Uncle signed couple protocols on Terrorism... There is a lot more appreciation of India's concerns now.. also Om Baba wants India in Afghanistan ( so do Afghans) and in Iraq against ISIS.
What is surprising is Ms Faire has talked about the exact scenario just some time back.

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Oct 2014 10:50

try not to get constipated by watching these lofty arguments by pakis, Ikram Sehgal and some general interviewed by Hamid Mir.

Itne nek aur sharif log dhunde nahin milenge, also shows interviews, clips from pakist border

[youtube]WycJlzHb1Vc&list=UU_vt34wimdCzdkrzVejwX9g[/youtube]

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 10 Oct 2014 10:52

Shrinivasan wrote:
deejay wrote:^^^ For what its a worth, info to veterans is as limited as the civilians and the ex- generals are guessing. Unless, one is involved in some capacity, there is no authentic news.
Agree 100000%. Unless they are part of think-tank, either MODs or of the Saffron variety, they dont have access to any information from inside... Our newstraders are wailing about lack of access...

Disagree.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2014 11:11

merlin wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: Agree 100000%. Unless they are part of think-tank, either MODs or of the Saffron variety, they dont have access to any information from inside... Our newstraders are wailing about lack of access...
Disagree.

what are you dis agreeing, ACCESS for Ex Military?

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 10 Oct 2014 11:13

Anthore article by veteran ashok k mehta

http://m.economictimes.com/opinion/gues ... 766124.cms

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2014 11:19

ravip wrote:Anthore article by veteran ashok k mehta

http://m.economictimes.com/opinion/gues ... 766124.cms

What happens to many ex generals, they just turn soft and become peacenicks. Do they get co-opted by WKKs so easily? I see that so many Ex Military people and their family members are getting attracted to AAP which is another veritable WKK

munna · Post by **munna** » 10 Oct 2014 11:35

ravip wrote:
munna wrote: The Chandigarh Club is unhappy to see the power slip away from their cozy clique. For them MMS could do no wrong and anything that his government did is/was the gold standard. Eg Lt. Gen. Panag, Amb KC Singh, Editor Raj Chengappa and so on.
Sir u may disagree with them but without credible proof backing your statement of painting them this club or that club is nothing but hit and run job....because these people have served the country for more than 4 decades and one should not take their words lightly...but you can challenge or contradict them with pure facts...no offence ment to any one but there is always the other side even if you disagree with them you have hear them.

So the standard "they have served, so they must know" defence. Please understand one thing, there are people who have served and are serving on all sides. Till the time there is an overwhelming consensus regarding the falsity of a policy. The "opinions" of the so called "great patriots who served" will be just one amongst the multitude who "think" otherwise. For every Gen.Panag there are tens of Gen. GD Bakshis who almost come to tears when talking about how UPA admin. tied hands of their boys. I have neither time nor inclination to debate things endlessly but in case people are curious, do try and find out where ED arrested two folks about a week ago? (In an arms setback case). Or to pick up a copy of The Tribune of Chandigarh and check their "slant" on all issues relating to Modi/Pak Policy.

And finally, when I say Chandigarh Club, I mean a school of policy regarding the "Border Actions" that advocated peace at all costs. There are active proponents of this policy and they should be able to own it and not couch it under the banners of "neutrality", "expert advice" or "sensible policy". Modi has shifted the centre of gravity regarding "Border Actions" and the naysayers are busy advocating the old policy. So, let us see who comes up trumps?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 10 Oct 2014 11:42

Btw, Lt.Gen Panag's daughter is an AAPtard so his loyalties are unclear, he will not want to praise BJP.

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Oct 2014 11:44

Shrinivasan wrote:
ravip wrote:Anthore article by veteran ashok k mehta

http://m.economictimes.com/opinion/gues ... 766124.cms
What happens to many ex generals, they just turn soft and become peacenicks. Do they get co-opted by WKKs so easily? I see that so many Ex Military people and their family members are getting attracted to AAP which is another veritable WKK

the answer is very simple. How did they become a general ?

there are a lot of good officers who rise uptil rank of Colonel based on their capability or based on the fact that they have caused no significant damage as yet, but beyond Colonel their rise is all a subset of their 'connections'. And how far they can soap their seniors. To be promoted beyond a Colonel, you have to be a 'climber'. Now being a 'climber' comes with entirely different and parallel skillset as compared to a purely military operations capability. This is a fact in both GoI babudom and Indian Armed Forces and maybe everywhere else in the world.

So if a retired general wants to be on the gravy train, he has to join the NGO set and be a sounding board for their narrative. Just because they are retired, doesn't mean they are no longer ambitious.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 10 Oct 2014 11:58

habal wrote:the answer is very simple. How did they become a general ?

there are a lot of good officers who rise uptil rank of Colonel based on their capability or based on the fact that they have caused no significant damage as yet, but beyond Colonel their rise is all a subset of their 'connections'. And how far they can soap their seniors. To be promoted beyond a Colonel, you have to be a 'climber'. Now being a 'climber' comes with entirely different and parallel skillset as compared to a purely military operations capability. .

I do wonder how FM Maneckshaw, Sundarji, Padmanabhan, VK Singh and others of similar ilk made it to the very top.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Oct 2014 12:00

Syed Talat Hussain ‏@TalatHussain12

Indian shelling has hit practically all villages (thousands) along 193 km Working Boundary.

Syed Talat Hussain @TalatHussain12 · 2h 2 hours ago

In Sialkot now. Gen Tahir Khan of Chenab Rangers calls Indian shelling 'mini war'.