India Border Watch: Security and Operations

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Oct 2014 12:01

Kashi wrote:
habal wrote:the answer is very simple. How did they become a general ?

there are a lot of good officers who rise uptil rank of Colonel based on their capability or based on the fact that they have caused no significant damage as yet, but beyond Colonel their rise is all a subset of their 'connections'. And how far they can soap their seniors. To be promoted beyond a Colonel, you have to be a 'climber'. Now being a 'climber' comes with entirely different and parallel skillset as compared to a purely military operations capability. .
I do wonder how FM Maneckshaw, Sundarji, Padmanabhan, VK Singh and others of similar ilk made it to the very top.

50s 60s 70s kee baat alag hain. I am talking of present.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Oct 2014 12:04

Syed Talat Hussain @TalatHussain12 · 2h 2 hours ago

Gen Tahir denies any infiltration. Challenges counterparts to prove it.

Syed Talat Hussain @TalatHussain12 · 2h 2 hours ago

Says it is possible only if Indian BSF persons take bribe and let someone in.

Syed Talat Hussain @TalatHussain12 · 2h 2 hours ago

Says he had called Indian counterpart but still awaiting return call.

Syed Talat Hussain @TalatHussain12 · 2h 2 hours ago

Says Working Boundary is being turned into LoC. There is a design.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 10 Oct 2014 12:06

habal wrote:50s 60s 70s kee baat alag hain. I am talking of present.

Sundarji was in 1980s...

Padmanabhan in 2001

VK Singh only 2 years back..

There were a few more in between whose names I forget..

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Oct 2014 12:09

Kashi wrote:
habal wrote:50s 60s 70s kee baat alag hain. I am talking of present.
Sundarji was in 1980s...

Padmanabhan in 2001

VK Singh only last year..

There were a few more in between whose names I forget..

there are always exceptions sire. It is not written anywhere that a capable warrior can not have the 'climber' skillset. Some people have both. VK Singh is admirable in that aspect, he is a genius.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 10 Oct 2014 12:12

habal wrote:
Kashi wrote:there are always exceptions sire. It is not written anywhere that a capable warrior can not have the 'climber' skillset. Some people have both. VK Singh is admirable in that aspect, he is a genius.

habal ji, I am not disputing your assertions. I have had interactions with some senior folks associated with armed forces they have said something similar. One need not look beyond Bikram Singh to realise that favouritism is deeply entrenched in the armed forces..

I was merely observing that it's admirable that some capable folks still manage to overcome the odds..how they do it and does it have lessons for others cut from the same cloth?

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Oct 2014 12:21

there are always exceptions, one cannot expect exceptions to be the norm unless there is overhaul of society and social outlook. A lot of colonel-level officers are excellent material and exemplary strategists but are never allowed to rise above their station because either

1. they may be a threat to other 'climbers'
2. they themselves do not have the 'climber' subset

so we are deprived of some excellent material at many higher levels. It is important that they do not be allowed to just fade away, and just retired generals get all the soundbytes.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 10 Oct 2014 12:45

@ habal ji,

your comments and views are not the reality, 2-3 ppl can use their pull and push but not 100%

- To move beyond col rank one has to be staff college pass and there are other courses that are required to pass before moving further. (passing is just an understatement here)
- the competition in higher ranks is very high and is of very high caliber
- previously there was a scope of pull and push in 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s but today its very very hard to use pull and push
- from LT Col onwards every ACR counts ppl with 8 pointers dont move up because that is the level of competition
- plus the vacancy's available beyond col rank are limited, thus competition is very high

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 10 Oct 2014 12:47

Although OT, pre-90s were different times. Just have a look at this. See what I mean?

from LT Col onwards every ACR counts ppl with 8 pointers dont move up because that is the level of competition

How does one ensure that one always gets 8 pointers - please don't tell me it is purely merit based. I have seen and met some very competent officers retiring at Col/Brig because at some point in time they did what was right and their superiors, for whatever reasons didn't like it. Result - retirement at col or max. at brig. rank.

Bottomline, this is a very subjective thing and one's got to have lady luck by their side to get superiors who evaluate objectively.

munna · Post by **munna** » 10 Oct 2014 12:48

Rakshaks and Rakshakniyos it would help a bit to have a vibrant debate over "Peace at all costs policy" for border actions or "Calibrated Pain" approach in addition to reporting the current events at border. Let us avoid the whole who rose through the ranks and how? debate.

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Oct 2014 12:51

berwal ji, who writes on ACR ?

munna, I am sorry for digression.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 10 Oct 2014 12:59

habal ji, ACR is written by ones Boss and He has to justify To his Boss the markings and his Boss can change the report if he feels some one is being harmed.

@ P Chitkara ji, one can twist the debate to objective vs subjective but 8 pointers dont move up.

I have seen many many instances where boss's Boss nullified the low ACR points and corrected the wrong done. If one works his caliber is visible and ppl will not let him be harmed.

In todays IA The Higher ups want to promote high caliber ppl as it improves their changes of getting good ACR, if one has low caliber ppl in his team his own ACR will suffer.

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Oct 2014 13:12

berwal ji, a climber always ensures exellent ACR. Because having good relations with boss is necessary for good ACR. You need to speak most of the times what he wants to hear, and not necessarily what he 'ought to hear'. Govt Services are full of excellent human material pulled down with poor ACR.

Now if you have a benevelont Godfather and you are also otherwise capable, then surely it is an exception.

I have seen many many instances where boss's Boss nullified the low ACR points and corrected the wrong done. If one works his caliber is visible and ppl will not let him be harmed.

so you yourself admit, one needs a benefactor at certain crucial times to improve career.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 10 Oct 2014 13:22

Habal ji, Govt services I dont know but that is not with IA.

what you are taking is what was prevalent in 90s ,80s ,70s , 60s but today the Godfather types are an exception.

I do agree that having good relations with the boss help good acr but where i differ is this has to be good working relationship and not chamcha type relation. Most of the boss admire their juniors who can walk-the-talk and not just be talk. Chamcha types are cut out at Col & Brig level only.

Sirji dont twist my words

so you yourself admit, one needs a benefactor at certain crucial times to improve career.

benefactor is your point of view and your view. What i said if your Boss harms you Boss's Boss can intervene and correct it, Plus if Boss tries to Push you upeven if you are non deserving Boss's Boss can intervene and correct it.

I have seen many many case of both the scenarios. One's Boss is not the final authority on ACR if he cannot justify his rankings Boss's Boss will intervene.

member_27164 · Post by **member_27164** » 10 Oct 2014 14:53

Sorry if posted earlier.
India Today- Pakistan issues 'nuclear warning' to India

member_26255 · Post by **member_26255** » 10 Oct 2014 15:06

India fighting small-scale war with Pakistan: DG Rangers Punjab

LAHORE: As violence on border between Pakistan and India continues, DG Rangers Punjab on Friday said India is not just violating ceasefire but fighting a small-scale war with Pakistan, Express News reported.
In a comprehensive briefing to the media at the working boundary, DG Rangers Major General Tahir Javaid Khan said though the aggression appears to be military, there could a political agenda behind the recent border clashes.
While talking to the media, DG Rangers provided a breakdown of firearms used in the ceasefire violations between 2010 and 2014. According to him, Indian Border Security Force (BSF) used 3.48 million small firearms on the working boundary during the stated period.
More than 30,000 mortar shells have also been fired between the aforementioned years and DG Rangers said such a large amount is not even used in a full-scale war.
Denying allegations that Pakistan started firing on LoC, Foreign Office said border clashes were initiated by India and the armed forces are only responding to Indian aggression.
As firing began on the first day of Eidul Azha on 193-km long working boundary, thousands of firearms have reportedly landed in Pakistan.
On October 6 alone, over 51,000 small arms were fired across the boundary, while on October 7, more than 4,000 mortar shells were fired. Exceeding the previous number, India fired over 6,000 mortar shells on October 8.
Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif summoned a meeting of National Security Council today in light of the recent border clashes.
Pakistan calls upon India to allow UN observer to visit LoC
Pakistan has called upon India to allow the United Nations (UN) military observer group to visit the LoC to investigate the recent ceasefire violations, Radio Pakistan reported.
Moreover, Foreign Office spokesperson Tasneem Aslam, during a media briefing in Islamabad, said that Pakistan took UN observers to their side of the LoC to show them the aftermath caused by the firing.
She added that the observers have compiled a report and have sent it to the UN.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 10 Oct 2014 15:06

aditya_dange wrote:Sorry if posted earlier.
India Today- Pakistan issues 'nuclear warning' to India

Yes it was posted earlier, actually it posted every year by pakistan without fail!

member_28714 · Post by **member_28714** » 10 Oct 2014 15:12

Philip wrote:7 BMos batteries deployed all along IB.Media report News X.

What? really? Thats nearly two regiments. Thats 1/3rd of our operational missiles including whats on the China front. I think this is BS news.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 10 Oct 2014 17:12

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Oct 2014 17:29

Devirupa Mitra @DevirupaM · 32m 32 minutes ago

We are simply responding to a situation that has been created on the line of control and the working boundary: Pakistan FO spokesperson

Devirupa Mitra @DevirupaM · 30m 30 minutes ago

+We did not start the violation of the ceasefire, we have not escalated the situation and our response has been strong but measured:Pakistan

Devirupa Mitra @DevirupaM · 28m 28 minutes ago

By firing on the LoC or by escalating the situation on the LoC, Pakistan cannot be brought to the negotiating table: Pak foreign office spox

Wah! Wah! This is some spin ... perhaps they can educate their NewsTrader friends in here that India was onlee trying to bring the Pakis to the negotiating table by firing on LOC.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 10 Oct 2014 17:31

hecky wrote:

Ambani ki gaand fat rahi hogi.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 10 Oct 2014 17:34

^Unfortunately nothing can embarrass DDM vermin. They would even pimp their mom for the right amount.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 10 Oct 2014 17:47

merlin wrote:
hecky wrote:

Ambani ki gaand fat rahi hogi.

Mind your language sir. Appropriate word here has to be g***d.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 10 Oct 2014 18:29

George wrote:
Philip wrote:7 BMos batteries deployed all along IB.Media report News X.
What? really? Thats nearly two regiments. Thats 1/3rd of our operational missiles including whats on the China front. I think this is BS news.

We have always had two Brahmos regiments pointed towards Pak and AFAIK Brahmos ever ready to hit out at Pak, launchers are ready to fire and deployed carefully across the length of the border with Pak, China will get more dedicated regiments too. I am sure some batteries also have their designated targets programmed and ready to go, given the word 'GO', it would take seconds to get in place and launch, with-in minutes most of Pak's Army key command and control structures would be dust.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 10 Oct 2014 18:36

LokeshC wrote:Here are some random thoughts on why nucular phlashpoint has not been used yet:

1) Could be because Bakis have lost credibility in the eyes of average wersten man (and woman).
2) could be that reality of the situation (i.e. where India stands and where Bakis stand) has sunk in to a large number of media folks.
3) Could be that everyone started going "yaaaawnnn, we know, whats news..., hey there is a new child rapist in brishitstain" aka hunting for higher TRP.

The nuclear flashpoint has not been used simply becos bakistan has no nukes and India knows this very well. Barking dogs dont bite. Have you ever seen a country which really has nukes go around telling the world that we are nuclear armed 1000 times a day. Those who have it dont open their mouth. Have you ever seen Indian GOI establishment claim about our nukes day in and day out. Reality is bakis dont have nukes. Its a different matter that if push comes to shove, chinkis will lend them some. But do they have any of their own, the answer is a no.

member_28714 · Post by **member_28714** » 10 Oct 2014 18:39

Septimus P. wrote:
What? really? Thats nearly two regiments. Thats 1/3rd of our operational missiles including whats on the China front. I think this is BS news.
We have always had two Brahmos regiments pointed towards Pak and AFAIK Brahmos ever ready to hit out at Pak, launchers are ready to fire and deployed carefully across the length of the border with Pak, China will get more dedicated regiments too. I am sure some batteries also have their designated targets programmed and ready to go, given the word 'GO', it would take seconds to get in place and launch, with-in minutes most of Pak's Army key command and control structures would be dust.

I know two regi's are on the western border but the news seemed to suggest that they are parked right at the fence. I was just pointing out the news trader syndrome.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Oct 2014 18:48

The Arnab show yesterday was a joke with a hyper-ventilating Paki retd. Brig. venting his spleen at India,promising to set us back "a hundred years" when Jet Li's warning was repeated to him! Arnab too was behaving in asinine fashion,hogging the whole show, not allowing others to speak and expose themselves.The retd. Paki AM was a better guest,speaking in sober fashion but was repeatedly interrupted by the Robespierre of the Indian media.Arnab should've allowed the Pakis to speak their mind fully which gives us valuable insights into their warped mentality. The Paki lady diplomat set the telly afire with hilarity when she called Hafeez Sayed a "social worker"! Who said that circuses are dead in the Indian subcontinent?

Meanwhile ,if our reports are accurate,Pak has suffered around 60 posts plastered all along the IB by both the BSF and IA using heavy arty too. The Sherrif has called for an emergency security meeting as he does not want another humiliating experience of rushing off to the US with tail well tucked between his legs,begging the US to make India stop its onslaught as he did when the Kargil gambit of Gen.Mush-a-rat turned into a fiasco and hell-for-leather retreat.India's robust counter-moves have taken the Pakis by surprise as Mr.Modi has called the Paki bluff.

saip · Post by **saip** » 10 Oct 2014 19:00

d_berwal wrote:@ habal ji,

your comments and views are not the reality, 2-3 ppl can use their pull and push but not 100%

- To move beyond col rank one has to be staff college pass and there are other courses that are required to pass before moving further. (passing is just an understatement here)
- the competition in higher ranks is very high and is of very high caliber
- previously there was a scope of pull and push in 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s but today its very very hard to use pull and push
- from LT Col onwards every ACR counts ppl with 8 pointers dont move up because that is the level of competition
- plus the vacancy's available beyond col rank are limited, thus competition is very high

Do they still have PPO (permanently passed over)?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2014 19:17

ravip wrote:Anthore article by veteran ashok k mehta

http://m.economictimes.com/opinion/gues ... 766124.cms

With respect to the general, who appears quite sane and reasonable on TV - I disagree with him on 2 points

1. He says Pakistan has "internationalized" the Kashmir issue. So what?
2. He says, "Some divine force — read US — has managed to restrain Pak army after Mumbai 2008 terror attacks from using its strategic assets like Lashkar-e-Taiba and other loonies from staging cross-border terrorist attacks on Indian mainland". The good general forget that out own internal security and intel have done yeoman service in destroying cells before they could act. He gives credit to America and puts the US on par with God.

I think the general himself is ill informed about the current status of Pakistan and the US. He may have political views - which is OK but erring on other things makes his political views stand out like a sore thumb.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Oct 2014 19:26

hahahaha , the way the paki pigs are scared at the border , the look in their face and the way they are firing the mortars, 3 guys telling 4th how use the mortar round

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Oct 2014 19:35

Saswati Sarkar ‏@sarkar_swati 44m44 minutes ago

Indian army believes Pak choosing villages for shelling based on the religion of the inhabitants. Hindus targeted http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 73684.aspx …"

member_28397 · Post by **member_28397** » 10 Oct 2014 19:44

shiv wrote:
ravip wrote:Anthore article by veteran ashok k mehta

http://m.economictimes.com/opinion/gues ... 766124.cms
With respect to the general, who appears quite sane and reasonable on TV - I disagree with him on 2 points

1. He says Pakistan has "internationalized" the Kashmir issue. So what?
2. He says, "Some divine force — read US — has managed to restrain Pak army after Mumbai 2008 terror attacks from using its strategic assets like Lashkar-e-Taiba and other loonies from staging cross-border terrorist attacks on Indian mainland". The good general forget that out own internal security and intel have done yeoman service in destroying cells before they could act. He gives credit to America and puts the US on par with God.

I think the general himself is ill informed about the current status of Pakistan and the US. He may have political views - which is OK but erring on other things makes his political views stand out like a sore thumb.

He is also the elder brother of the renowned journalist and editor, Vinod Mehta.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Oct 2014 19:49

I think everybody now understands what Modi implied when he said, "Soon everything will be all right".

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 10 Oct 2014 20:15

krishnan wrote:hahahaha , the way the paki pigs are scared at the border , the look in their face and the way they are firing the mortars, 3 guys telling 4th how use the mortar round

Where is this ?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Oct 2014 20:18

saw it on TV ,

, the way the guy ran back after dropping the mortar into the tube

, as if it was gonna explode there itself

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 10 Oct 2014 20:20

Can you give a you tube link ?
By the way is everything silent now on the western front ?
Me thinks they will try now to use subterfuge now that they got whacked. if they do that then probably the Israeli way of taking control of a few meters of the LOC for every infringement as punishment may have to be done.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 10 Oct 2014 20:23

it was on TV , dunno whether it will be on utube

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 10 Oct 2014 20:38

krishnan wrote:saw it on TV , , the way the guy ran back after dropping the mortar into the tube , as if it was gonna explode there itself

Maybe they are showing the due confidence for the Cheeni maal.

-M

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 10 Oct 2014 20:45

Views from the other side by Yawn.

The lull in fighting followed some of the worst violence in a decade in the region, which is divided between the nuclear-armed neighbours.

“The firing last night was less intense than the previous night and confined to a smaller area,” said an official with India's Border Security Force (BSF) on condition of anonymity.

An Indian police official told AFP that 10 civilians were injured overnight on the Indian side of the border due to the fighting, but there were no deaths.

Pakistan confirmed late Thursday that three more civilians had died on its side of the disputed Kashmir region and in Punjab province, taking the toll up to 13. At least seven civilians have died on the Indian side this week.

Pakistan concluded on Friday that war against India was “not an option” after a meeting of top security officials chaired by Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif.

“The Committee stressed the fact that both countries are aware of each other's capabilities. War is not an option. It is shared responsibility of the leadership of both countries to immediately defuse the situation,” an official statement said.

Meanwhile India threw the ball in Pakistan's court, saying “de-escalation is now entirely in Pakistan's hands”.

“It is for Pakistan to either escalate or de-escalate. We will respond as appropriate to what will be their efforts in this regard,” foreign ministry spokesman Syed Akbaruddin said at a press conference in New Delhi.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 10 Oct 2014 20:52

hecky wrote:

So white man has beared his burden of making us stop fighting like the immature lesser people we are. Does not get more house slavish than this.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 10 Oct 2014 21:00

Malala was poised to be the only Binner of Nobel prije. Suddenly from nobhere an Indian came and grabbed halph of the gold from the poor kids hand. These Indians