Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Oct 2014 18:31

Can it be a submarine rescue/replenishment vessel at sea ? Looking at the dimensions could be possible ..as well as timing !

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Oct 2014 18:36

Kartik wrote:New developments in the field of submarine propulsion..Japan looking to move from AIP to Li-Ion batteries for the Soryu class submarine.

Japan makes major sub propulsion switch

Japan has decided to power its new batch of Soryu-class submarines with Lithium-ion batteries instead of air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology — a move that could raise eyebrows after similar types batteries were faulted for fires aboard the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

However, experts brush aside those concerns and instead say this type of technological leap increases power and performance, while reducing maintenance. It also could make Japanese subs more marketable overseas.

....

For the Navy, Kojima said AIP technology, which reduces the speed of submerged submarines to just a few knots, is being increasingly seen as too slow for emerging strategic uses and that the Navy regards AIP as maintenance intensive. Improvements in batteries make this technology the better long-term bet.

Bob Nugent, a consultant at naval consulting firm AMI International, said it is “plausible” that going to Li-ion batteries will provide more speed and power.

The Soryu-class is about one-third larger than most European subs that use AIP technology, he said, adding the increased power and energy density of the batteries would allow for longer cruise and sprint bursts of speed.

...

Very significant move...only tactical advantages here but yes costly initially .. as well as saving more space and improved performance ! Could be that some new improvements in lithium technology ?

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 07 Oct 2014 18:37

Probably we shouldn't discuss this for the sake of national security. It seems more like a surveillance ship than anything else. No weapons and all. Maybe it's labor intensive because personnel from multiple departments will be working on this ship at a time (navy, disaster management, oil and gas etc.)

It's not for the sole use of Navy is it?

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Oct 2014 18:41

narendranaik wrote:Probably we shouldn't discuss this for the sake of national security. It seems more like a surveillance ship than anything else. No weapons and all. Maybe it's labor intensive because personnel from multiple departments will be working on this ship at a time (navy, disaster management, oil and gas etc.)

It's not for the sole use of Navy is it?

You could be right ..better leave it off discussions

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Oct 2014 20:05

^^^ Gentlemen, lets end the speculations please.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Oct 2014 18:44

Russia is already the leader in new battery tech for 5th-gen subs.Excuse the poor Eng. translation!

http://www.enews163.com/2014/08/27/russ ... 51712.html

Russia Research 5th generation conventional submarines with AIP unit lithium battery

Core Tip: Itar – Tass August 25, 2014 reported that Russia will start air independent propulsion device (AIP) testing machine and the fifth -generation conventional submarines new lithium battery research and development work in 2014 .

China Defense Science and Technology Information Network on August 27 reported Itar – Tass August 25, 2014 reported that Russia will start air independent propulsion device (AIP) testing machine and the new fifth-generation conventional submarines in 2014 lithium battery research and development. Ruby Design Bureau chief architect Igor Molchanov , confirmed the news , he said, the research and development work is in the research stage, up to the end of 2014 , research and development on the AIP and lithium batteries will be more in-depth , Although it can not produce mature technology experimental prototype , but progress in the development will be very close to that goal , fully mature technology and test prototype development of new battery will start in 2015 .

For specific schedule of the project, in June 2014 , General Manager of the Ruby Design Bureau Igor Willie Bennett said in the end of 2014 , while the previous design bureau deputy general manager of ruby Andrei Baranov it said it plans to complete the development of a prototype in 2016 , the Russian Navy will receive the first aircraft (!) equipped with conventional submarines AIP unit in 2016-2017 .

According Molchanov said the new lithium batteries and lead batteries have a fundamental difference. Lithium batteries have greater capacity and better security , and does not require expensive security systems , the two works are completely different. Although the new battery size has not changed , but the project is completely different wire cloth , therefore , before the battery is applied to 877 and 636.3 submarines , need to replace the electric power system .

Molchanov also disclose the Russian Navy decided to AIP devices and lithium batteries used in conjunction with , and together with the equipment to the ” Lada ” class submarines. AIP devices and lithium battery research will be carried out under the framework of the development of Russia’s fifth-generation submarines . ( China Shipbuilding Technology and Economy Institute Zhong uranium )

( Original title : Russia is developing a fifth -generation conventional submarines , AIP devices and lithium batteries used in conjunction )

Original link: http://war.163.com/14/0827/16/A4LUL6IA00014OMD.html
This entry was posted in Military on August 27, 2014.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/upg ... at-026828/

Upgrades At Last: Keeping India’s U209 Subs Afloat
Sep 03, 2014

India’s Navy will be hard-pressed to keep an adequate submarine force afloat over the medium term. Its 6 “Project 75″ Scorpene Class submarines won’t begin deploying before 2019, 2 of its 10 aging Kilo Class boats have been wrecked, and its 4 U209 submarines are quickly approaching the end of their useful lives.

Nevertheless, if submarine strength is to be maintained while waiting for the Scorpenes, it’s the U209s that are going to have to fill the numbers gap…
Advertisement

India’s Shishumar Class
Indian Navy: U209/1500 Shishumar Class
Shishumar Class
(click to view full)

Shishumar Class submarines are 64.4m long U209/1500 boats, displacing 1,850t fully submerged and powered by diesel-electric motors. They carry a crew of 40. The 1st boat, INS Shishumar [S44], was commissioned in September 1986. The last boat, INS Shankul [S47], was commissioned in May 1994. The boats have received mid-life upgrades, but details are sketchy. Sonar upgrades are believed to have been part of the work.

INS Shishumar will turn 30 years old in September 2016, and the stress of repeated water compression creates a safety limit for submarine life extensions. If the standard 30-year limit is respected, the submarines will have to leave service in 2016 (Shishumar & Shankush), 2022 (Shalki) and 2024 (Shankul).

The current round of upgrades is reportedly targeted at INS Shalki [S46] and INS Shankul [S47], leaving a decision regarding the older INS Shishumar [S44] and INS Shankush [S45] for later. Those upgrades appear to revolve around their weapon fit.
UGM-84 launch
UGM-84 launched
(click to view full)

These submarines currently have 14 storage slots for heavyweight torpedoes, firing through 8 x 533mm torpedo tubes. India uses the Atlas Elektronik AEG SUT-66 Mod-1 wire-guided, active/passive homing torpedo with active and passive sonar, as well as wire guidance. It has a range of 28 km at 23 knots, dropping to 13 km at 35 knots fast pursuit, and delivers a 260 kg RDX warhead. Up to 24 mines can also be strapped on externally.

Planned weapon upgrades in this round include the ability to fire sub-sonic UGM-84L Harpoon Block II anti-ship and land attack missiles, with an operational range of around 140 km. Each Harpoon missile container would take up a storage slot otherwise reserved for a torpedo, but their presence would vault the Shishumars ahead of even India’s Russian Sindhugosh (Kilo) Class submarines, thanks to the Harpoon’s GPS guidance and land attack capability.(How? When the IN's Kilos are Klub equipped with greater range and speed ,M-3.0+ terminal homing warheads with both anti-ship and land attack versions)

India will also need to upgrade or replace its AEG SUT-66 torpedoes, and reports indicate that this is underway. The nature of the upgrades hasn’t been specified, beyond 15 – 17 years of torpedo life extension.
Other Upgrade Options
Why AIP matters

Some level of structural inspection and remediation should be expected in any Shishumar Class upgrade. The question is how much, and that may depend on what any inspections find. Beyond that, weapons and propulsion are the most promising upgrade areas for any conventional SSK.

If India wished to replace their existing torpedo stocks, the Atlas DM2A4 Seehecht (Seahake) heavyweight torpedo offers greatly improved sonar and fiber-optic guidance, while extending torpedo range to over 50 km at 50 knots. The Seahake Mod4 ER goes a step further, and has hit an astonishing maximum range of 140 km. Unfortunately for the Shishumars, the Scorpene submarine’s planned torpedo buy remains in limbo. India favors the Finmeccanica WASS Black Shark torpedo that comes pre-integrated with the Scorpene, but the government’s issues with Finmeccanica have stalled any purchase. Atlas Elektronik’s Seahake was the other competitor in India, and in the unlikely event that it’s eventually picked, the door might open to refitting the Shishumars with Seahakes as well. Otherwise, it would be an expensive weapon buy with nowhere to go once the Shishumars leave service.

A September 2004 proposal from Siemens of Germany offered India an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system upgrade for the Shishumar Class, and the necessity of cutting through the hull to add this block section would have made additional life extension work sensible. India was unable to seize the opportunity at that time. The Shishumar fleet’s age makes it very unlikely that such an expensive upgrade would be considered now, despite its stealth benefits for the boats.
Contracts and Key Events
U209/1500 Shishumar Class
Shishumar Class
(click to view full)

Aug 29/14: DAC OK. The new BJP government’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) makes a number of key moves, beginning with cancellation of the 197-helicopter Light Utility Helicopter competition. At the same time, however, DAC cleared INR 48 billion to cover mid-life upgrades for 6 submarines: 4 Sindhughosh (Kilo Class) and 2 Shishumar (U209 Class) boats. Sources: Business Standard, “Govt clears defence deals worth Rs 17,000 cr” | Defense News, “India Cancels $1 Billion Light Helicopter Tender” | Financial Express, “Make in India kicks off with defence deals” | Indian Express, “Centre scraps light utility helicopter tender, opens it to Indian players” | NDTV, “Modi Government Drops Rs 6000-Crore Foreign Chopper Plan, Wants ‘Made in India'”.

2 upgrades approved

July 1/14: Weapons. The US DSCA announces India’s formal export request for a possible initial sale of 12 UGM-84L Harpoon Block II Encapsulated Missiles, 10 UTM-84L Harpoon Encapsulated Training missiles, 2 Encapsulated Harpoon certification training vehicles, containers, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical data, and other forms of US Government and contractor support. The estimated cost is up to $200 million.

“This Harpoon missile system will be employed on the Indian Navy’s Shishumar class submarine (Type-209) and will provide enhanced capabilities in defense of critical sea lines of communication. India has already purchased [AGM-84] Harpoon missiles for integration on Indian Air Force Jaguar aircraft and Indian Navy P-8I maritime patrol aircraft. India will have no difficulty absorbing these additional missiles into its armed forces.”

The principal contractors will be the Boeing Company in St Louis, MO (Harpoon); and Delex Systems Inc., in Vienna, VA. In accordance with the Indian Defense Procurement Policy, a contractor may be expected to conclude offset agreements with the Government of India.

Implementation of this proposed sale won’t require any additional US Government or contractor personnel in India, but visits will be required on an intermittent and temporary basis for program, technical, and management oversight and support requirements over a period of about 5 years. Sources: US DSCA #14-21, “India – UGM-84L Harpoon Missiles”.

DSCA request: Harpoon Block II (12)

June 23/14: Batteries. India’s government new has decided to take swift action to replace submarine battery stocks, as India works to keep its existing fleet in the water until 2016.

The Navy has issued an RFP to buy 7 Type-I battery sets (248 batteries each) for Russian-made Kilo-class submarines, plus 2 sets of Type-II batteries (540 batteries each) for their U209 Shishumar Class. They’re also buying new cables. The Kilo Class submarine INS Sindhuratna needs those cables to become operational again, and the belief that old and dangerous battery sets may have played a role in Sindhurakshak’s sinking (q.v. Feb 26/14) has made it clear that the red tape blocking new buys needed to be cut.

What the report doesn’t say is whether a resolution was found for the fact that “the Defence Ministry had stopped purchases from a particular vendor.” Sources: Mail Online India, “Centre rushes to buy new submarine batteries as Navy suffers shortage”.

Nov 11/13: Weapons. The Indian Navy picks OEM Atlas Elektronik to upgrade 64 German-built AEG SUT-66 Mod.1 heavyweight torpedoes deployed on the Shishumar Class. What they don’t say is how extensive the upgrade will be, beyond mentioning that it will give the torpedoes another 15-17 years of service life. Sources: Indian Express, “Navy to upgrade torpedoes, sonars of warships soon” | SP’s Naval Forces, “Atlas Elektronik to upgrade Indian Navy torpedoes”.

Torpedo upgrade

Sept 9/13: India is moving to try and expedite defense proposals that include an upgrade for the Shishumar class (HDW Type 209) to equip them with anti-ship missiles, a fire control system upgrade for its Sindhugosh (Kilo) submarines, simulators for training the crews on weapons firing, and the Project 75i tenders for a new range of conventional submarines.

Sources said the upgrade for the Shishumar class of submarines is likely to be cleared first. The upgrade for two of the four submarines of the class with the Navy is likely to cost under Rs 1,000 crore (about $), which will include the purchase of nearly 100 Harpoon missiles from the USA.

The submarine’s original designers at TKMS subsidiary HDW will reportedly be roped in for the upgrade and training of the crew. While INS Shalki and Shankul will be upgraded, a decision on the other 2 will be taken later. To reduce crew training costs, and conserve the Shishumar fleet’s dwindling operational life, India also plans to buy 2 torpedo simulators will from Germany. Sources: Indian Express, “Navy set to upgrade, boost existing fleet”.

June 20/12: The Navy is planning a major upgrade for its Shishumar class of submarines by equipping them with tube-launched UGM-84 Harpoon sub-sonic anti-ship missiles.

“Sources said the Navy had moved a proposal to the Ministry of Defence to equip the fleet with Harpoon anti-ship missiles when the submarines go for the next round of refits. In the first step, the Navy plans to upgrade the INS Shalki and Shankul with the Harpoon system, followed by the 2 older submarines in the class…. At present, the combat range of the Shishumar class is limited to under 20 nautical miles — the effective range of its AES SUT torpedoes…. The Kilo Class submarines are equipped with anti-ship Klub S missiles with a range of just over 100 nautical miles.”

Sources: Indian Express, “Navy plans missiles for four submarines”.

PS:Nice to see BR quoted in the link for "additional reading"!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Oct 2014 18:56

http://fortunascorner.com/2014/06/17/ru ... th-drones/
Russian Navy To Equip 5th Generation Submarines With Drones
June 17, 2014 ·

Russian Navy to Equip Fifth-Generation Submarines With Military Robots

Nuclear submarine (Archive)
17/06/2014

Tags: Yasen-class submarine, Borey-A class, robots, Russian Navy, Russia
SEVERODVINSK, June 17 (RIA Novosti) – Russian fifth-generation submarines will be armed with military robots, Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy said.

“The combat capabilities of the multipurpose nuclear and conventional submarines will be improved in the future through integration of promising robotic systems into their weaponry,” admiral Viktor Chirkov said on Tuesday.
He stressed that tough laws of shipbuilding demand to avoid pauses in the creation of new generations of submarines. This is due to the construction time, cyclical use of ships and submarines, and the rapid development of scientific and technical progress.

“Therefore, we demand from the industry to avoid pauses and start designing the next generation of submarines as soon as they finish designing the previous one,” Commander-in-Chief said.

This is the only way the Russian Navy can keep up with technological progress and have submarines that “meet the latest requirements,” the admiral said.

Currently, the fourth-generation ships are passing into service of the Russian Navy – the Yasen-class nuclear multipurpose attack submarines [NATO reporting name: Severodvinsk] and the Borey-class ballistic missile submarines.

After raising a flag over the leading Yasen-class submarine, Chirkov said that the fifth-generation submarines are already being designed

Will this sub design be offered to INDIA?
http://brahmand.com/news/Russia-announc ... /1/10.html
The Commander of Russian Navy, Adm. Viktor Chirkov said on Wednesday that the new fifth-generation submarines will be designated as the Kalina class.

"Russia is currently designing a fifth-generation conventional submarine, dubbed Project Kalina, which will be fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system," Adm. Viktor Chirkov said.

"Our industry promises to develop this AIP system by 2017 and build the first boat fitted with such a system by 2018," Chirkov was quoted as saying by Ria Novosti.

The admiral earlier said that the new AIP system could be initially tested on the only operational Lada-class diesel-electric submarine in service with the Russian Navy, the St. Petersburg, which is undergoing sea trials in the Barents Sea after a series of design changes.

Air-independent power plants offer significant advantages over diesel-electric submarines, which must surface regularly to recharge their batteries, and nuclear submarines, which must continually run noisy pumps to cool their reactors.

The newest submarines will possess enhanced stealth technology, improved communication systems and systems preventing collision with other vessels, as well as advanced weaponry, the Navy Chief said.

Russian Navy is currently operating third-generation submarines while the fourth-generation subs of the Project 955 Borey class of strategic boats and Project 885 Yasen class of attack boats are being adopted for service.

The Russian Navy plans to build eight Borey-class and eight Yasen-class submarines by 2020 which are expected to become the mainstay of the country's nuclear-powered submarine fleet.
[/quote]

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 09 Oct 2014 22:52

So Russia is now almost ready with a nth generation sub with lithium batteries and AIP system. Almost ready. It just needsa few turns of a screwdriver and a few bilion$$$ (from India, who else) and it will deliver the first sub to India by Dec 2014 (or maybe by 2024/2034) latest.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 09 Oct 2014 22:54

Indian Navy.
Klub. Uran. Exocet. Harpoon. Styx. Brahmos.
Any AShM left out ?

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 10 Oct 2014 00:13

Nirbhay coming soon
plus Shaurya, K2-,K15 etc ...

Unity in Diversity

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 10 Oct 2014 00:14

K15 & K4 and Brahmos-M

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Oct 2014 06:32

Kersi Russia hasn't used a single rupee in its sub programmes.In many aspects it is more advanced than even the US in sub tech. and weaponry.There is no western equiv. to Klub, BMos and Shkval.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 10 Oct 2014 06:43

http://navyrecognition.com/index.php?op ... ew&id=2029

DCNS too has unveiled a new generation of conventional submarine, SMX Ocean, based on their Barracuda design.

Endurance for 14000 nautical miles/ 3 months.
14 knot speed on AIP for 1 week.
One large modular VLS tube that can fire 6 Scalp/Storm Shadow missiles.

SMX Ocean V/s Kalina V/s Type-214/216 V/s Soryu(?) V/s The Swedes V/s The Spaniards.

It's like a naval MMRCA, only bigger.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Oct 2014 07:12

>> One large modular VLS tube that can fire 6 Scalp/Storm Shadow missiles.

that is a weak point, a loadout of atleast 12-16 is needed to make a solid impact.
perhaps design can be lengthened to accomodate atleast one more tube.
plus it must be adaptable to take any of our key missiles like nirbhay or brahmos to be considered palatable.
buying 10 scalps at $100 mil each is not going to fly...

but atleast its a step in right direction.

the U216 and Soryu have no UVLS which is a must nowadays with swing-role/low-unit-number/agile/virtualized inventories...their power plants may already be maxed out and cannot accomodate another plug for the inline UVLS without speed penalty.

the Kalina is a total unproven unknown, given Rus does not operate a single AIP sub yet

in the end I think doubling down on more Arihants is better than wasting money on these costly bideshi kit which will cost just as much with much less endurance and top speed.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 10 Oct 2014 07:48

Kersi D wrote:Indian Navy.
Klub. Uran. Exocet. Harpoon. Styx. Brahmos.
Any AShM left out ?

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:Nirbhay coming soon
plus Shaurya, K2-,K15 etc ...
Unity in Diversity

Bheeshma wrote:K15 & K4 and Brahmos-M

Guys, Jokes apart, imagine the plight of the captain of the ship at the receiving end, He will be clueless about what is coming in, what counter measures to take etc...
Lets imagine, Bogey at 3'O clock, designate it Sierra 1. designation unknown.
distance 200km
Probably SDRE fighter, transonic
sound alarm, Ack Ack Ready, SAM ready.
distance 100km
designation unknown, height 3 m, probably Anti ship missile, speed transonic
distance 50km
designation missile, height 3 m, transonic. type Uran
distance 40km
designation missile, height 3 m, transonic. type harpoon
distance 30km
designation missile, height 3 m, transonic. type club
distance 20km
designation missile, height 3 m, transonic. type Exocet
distance 5km
designation missile, height 3 m, supersonic. type Brahmos
distance... BOOOM... ship sunk with all hand on board...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Oct 2014 11:31

Ultimately,developing two lines of N-subs,SSGNs and SSBNs based upon the experience of the ATV is the way of the future.However,these will be expensive and technologically challenging.Without the Russian help for our N-sub programme it will be extremely difficult to go it alone.This should be one of the times on the agenda of the meeting with the Russian pres. when he visits India in two months time.Until we have developed our own SSGN design,we should acquire another 2 Akula-2/3s to complement the Chakjra-2.The conventional AIP subs are needed for littoral warfare in the Arabian Sea with Pak and any ops in nd around Gulf waters.They will cost much less and certainly far less than the ultra-expensive Scorpenes. Either existing Amur/Lada designs or the new Kalina, if offered,may be suitable as the former would be cost effective acquisitions.The IN sub fleet should be around 30-36 subs ,both N-subs and conventional.China and Pak combined willl possess at least 3 times that amount.

I've posted the poss. of German U-boat upgrades.It appears from the DID report that only 2 of the 4 subs are worth upgrading.Having operated German subs for 3 decades+,we are very familiar with German sub tech and perhaps acquiring a few more German U-boats would not be a bad idea.I've been saying this for a decade+.We would thus have the best tech from both east and west with us,apart from indigenous N-subs.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Oct 2014 11:48

Shrinivasan wrote:
Kersi D wrote:Indian Navy.
Klub. Uran. Exocet. Harpoon. Styx. Brahmos.
Any AShM left out ?
saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:Nirbhay coming soon
plus Shaurya, K2-,K15 etc ...
Unity in Diversity
Bheeshma wrote:K15 & K4 and Brahmos-M
Guys, Jokes apart, imagine the plight of the captain of the ship at the receiving end, He will be clueless about what is coming in, what counter measures to take etc...
Lets imagine, Bogey at 3'O clock, designate it Sierra 1. designation unknown.
distance 200km
Probably SDRE fighter, transonic
sound alarm, Ack Ack Ready, SAM ready.
distance 100km
designation unknown, height 3 m, probably Anti ship missile, speed transonic
distance 50km
designation missile, height 3 m, transonic. type Uran
distance 40km
designation missile, height 3 m, transonic. type harpoon
distance 30km
designation missile, height 3 m, transonic. type club
distance 20km
designation missile, height 3 m, transonic. type Exocet
distance 5km
designation missile, height 3 m, supersonic. type Brahmos
distance... BOOOM... ship sunk with all hand on board...

I think the newer generation AESA radars coming from Japan and USA are quite capable at target differentiation .. software based threat libraries

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 10 Oct 2014 14:35

Kersi D wrote:Indian Navy.
Klub. Uran. Exocet. Harpoon. Styx. Brahmos.
Any AShM left out ?

Precisely for this reason IN will be a headache for any adversary navy especially their sea suface based assets.

member_28714 · Post by **member_28714** » 10 Oct 2014 14:43

Kersi D wrote:Indian Navy.
Klub. Uran. Exocet. Harpoon. Styx. Brahmos.
Any AShM left out ?

CM 400 AKG

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Oct 2014 23:43

Philip wrote:Russia is already the leader in new battery tech for 5th-gen subs.

'Leader in new battery tech' based on what? The Japanese are switching to LiON on their new Soryus. The Germans will employ it on the U-216. The US doesn't operate any SSKs but will be using them on their new SEAL mini-subs as well as UAVs. In addition, they've been operational on civilian aircraft (787) for a while now (albeit with problems).

PS:Nice to see BR quoted in the link for "additional reading"!

Nice.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Oct 2014 06:28

Sumeet wrote:
Kersi D wrote:Indian Navy.
Klub. Uran. Exocet. Harpoon. Styx. Brahmos.
Any AShM left out ?
Precisely for this reason IN will be a headache for any adversary navy especially their sea suface based assets.

But the downside is inventory management of all these types along with training. That will be a headache for the IN

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Oct 2014 07:21

Kersi D wrote:Indian Navy.
Klub. Uran. Exocet. Harpoon. Styx. Brahmos.
Any AShM left out ?

Gabriel III

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 11 Oct 2014 10:24

Fire Scout is a naval UAV. It hunts sea mines and subs and obviously surface vessels from the air - among other things.

The key is not building some rotary aircraft that can fly autonomously. The key is building the sensor package around it.
____________

US Navy Using LiDAR from Helicopter Drones

The US Navy has used their Fire Scout helicopter drone (seen here) to capture cocaine smugglers. Their next target is pirates operating from small boats. The new system will include the use of LIDAR to make the Fire Scout even more powerful. “Infrared and visible cameras produce 2-D pictures, and objects in them can be difficult to automatically identify,” said Dean Cook, principal investigator for the MMSS program at the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division. “With LADAR data, each pixel corresponds to a 3D point in space, so the automatic target recognition algorithm can calculate the dimensions of an object and compare them to those in a database.” -

See more at: http://blog.lidarnews.com/navy-using-li ... 3rua2.dpuf
_______________

NRUAV

Northrop-Grumman has made multiple presentations to the Indian Navy explaining why the IAI-HAL Naval Rotory UAV (NRUAV) based on the Chetak airframe is a bad idea. Remember, the NRUAV is a programme that has considerable Indian investment, not to mention a fully Indian-built helicopter airframe. I heard from a couple of my sources in the Navy that the Americans were making a powerful pitch against the NRUAV, so I sent NG an e-mail a few days ago.

Mike Fuqua, Northrop's Business Development Director (Tactical Unmanned Systems) replied, "Northrop Grumman is aware of the initiative announced by the Indian Government regarding NRUAV. However, we are convinced that once the issues of complexity, capability, maturity and reliability are evaluated, the Indian Navy will recognize that Fire Scout will provide the best, most cost effective, and most rapid VTUAV capability for their forces at sea."

The NRUAV is currently in its trial stage, and is still some way off from sea trials. However, the Indian Navy has fully backed the programme and has invested in it as well. At the same time, Fuqua said, "The Indian Navy has shown interest in the Fire Scout VTUAV and Northrop Grumman has been engaged with the Indian Navy to discuss capabilities. We have provided briefings and answered questions from the highest level of the Indian Navy, at their request."

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Oct 2014 13:54

Thakur_B wrote:
Gabriel III

The IN is lacking the latest PRC and Taiwanese the Norwegian ASHMs as well.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Oct 2014 14:05

Sumeet wrote:
Precisely for this reason IN will be a headache for any adversary navy especially their sea suface based assets.

We seem to be assuming that the small numbers of the different missiles will help us in terms of fighting a war. But please note that with the possible exception of Brahmos. All the other missiles can be dealt with any one of the point defense systems that a modern ship carries.

This diversity has no advantages to the IN. It is in fact creating a mindset, which suggests that such a diversity is a good thing. When it is not.

IMO the IN needs to work in terms of rationalizing its AShM inventory, over the next 10 years. So that, it has 2 types of ASHMs. A light one for Missile boats and subs and Bhrahmos & its successors for everything larger.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Oct 2014 19:54

Western navies are worried about only 2 anti-ship missiles other than Russian super-heavyweight missiles which can carry a N-warhead.They are Klub with a M 3.0+ terminal warhead and BMos./Yakhont.The Chinese anti-ship BM is a definite threat but the PLAN's targeting capability is in doubt.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Oct 2014 20:50

Neshant wrote: NRUAV

Northrop-Grumman has made multiple presentations to the Indian Navy explaining why the IAI-HAL Naval Rotory UAV (NRUAV) based on the Chetak airframe is a bad idea. Remember, the NRUAV is a programme that has considerable Indian investment, not to mention a fully Indian-built helicopter airframe. I heard from a couple of my sources in the Navy that the Americans were making a powerful pitch against the NRUAV, so I sent NG an e-mail a few days ago.

Mike Fuqua, Northrop's Business Development Director (Tactical Unmanned Systems) replied, "Northrop Grumman is aware of the initiative announced by the Indian Government regarding NRUAV. However, we are convinced that once the issues of complexity, capability, maturity and reliability are evaluated, the Indian Navy will recognize that Fire Scout will provide the best, most cost effective, and most rapid VTUAV capability for their forces at sea."

The NRUAV is currently in its trial stage, and is still some way off from sea trials. However, the Indian Navy has fully backed the programme and has invested in it as well. At the same time, Fuqua said, "The Indian Navy has shown interest in the Fire Scout VTUAV and Northrop Grumman has been engaged with the Indian Navy to discuss capabilities. We have provided briefings and answered questions from the highest level of the Indian Navy, at their request."

IAI-HAL NRUAV project is dead. Development was completed around 2008 but the orders never came.http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rk-225004/

ADE was planning to field an alternate platform (unknown size) in 2015-2017 time frame.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=265 ... evelopment

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 Oct 2014 13:55

Pratyush wrote:
Sumeet wrote:
Precisely for this reason IN will be a headache for any adversary navy especially their sea suface based assets.
We seem to be assuming that the small numbers of the different missiles will help us in terms of fighting a war. But please note that with the possible exception of Brahmos. All the other missiles can be dealt with any one of the point defense systems that a modern ship carries.

This diversity has no advantages to the IN. It is in fact creating a mindset, which suggests that such a diversity is a good thing. When it is not.

IMO the IN needs to work in terms of rationalizing its AShM inventory, over the next 10 years. So that, it has 2 types of ASHMs. A light one for Missile boats and subs and Bhrahmos & its successors for everything larger.

Me thinks we should have Beahmos, Nirbahy and Klub (or its Indian equivalent). Styx should have been retired ages ago. It should be replaced with Uran or Klub till we get an Indian deisgn, Nirbhay Mini.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Oct 2014 14:17

the urans are also getting a bit long in the tooth without any known upgrades to targeting and eccm unlike the periodic 'block' upg to the harpoon.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Oct 2014 16:39

Lifespan of the missiles and the cost of replacing them.We can't afford to fire them at a Diwali show! One supposes that when their lifespan ends they will be replaced by more modern ones. However,there is a case for using some of the older missiles aboard our NOPVs and smaller warships which have space for combat upgrades. While we have a galaxy of anti-ship missiles,the naval SAM systems and anti-sub weaponry urgently needs a huge shot in the arm. It is here where we are weakest.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 13 Oct 2014 18:15

There is confirmation from the MOD AR that the Kolkata actually has the LRSAM installed (page 88-89). And not the Barak-1 (temporary installation) as some here had predicted. The Barak-8 system has not been tested but is still installed on an operational warship? Are we missing something here?

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 13 Oct 2014 18:30

Anyone heard any storm damage assessment post Hudhud?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Oct 2014 18:33

There is confirmation from the MOD AR that the Kolkata actually has the LRSAM installed (page 88-89). And not the Barak-1 (temporary installation) as some here had predicted. The Barak-8 system has not been tested but is still installed on an operational warship? Are we missing something here?

The missiles..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Oct 2014 18:35

Thakur_B wrote:
Neshant wrote: NRUAV

Northrop-Grumman has made multiple presentations to the Indian Navy explaining why the IAI-HAL Naval Rotory UAV (NRUAV) based on the Chetak airframe is a bad idea. Remember, the NRUAV is a programme that has considerable Indian investment, not to mention a fully Indian-built helicopter airframe. I heard from a couple of my sources in the Navy that the Americans were making a powerful pitch against the NRUAV, so I sent NG an e-mail a few days ago.

Mike Fuqua, Northrop's Business Development Director (Tactical Unmanned Systems) replied, "Northrop Grumman is aware of the initiative announced by the Indian Government regarding NRUAV. However, we are convinced that once the issues of complexity, capability, maturity and reliability are evaluated, the Indian Navy will recognize that Fire Scout will provide the best, most cost effective, and most rapid VTUAV capability for their forces at sea."

The NRUAV is currently in its trial stage, and is still some way off from sea trials. However, the Indian Navy has fully backed the programme and has invested in it as well. At the same time, Fuqua said, "The Indian Navy has shown interest in the Fire Scout VTUAV and Northrop Grumman has been engaged with the Indian Navy to discuss capabilities. We have provided briefings and answered questions from the highest level of the Indian Navy, at their request."

IAI-HAL NRUAV project is dead. Development was completed around 2008 but the orders never came.http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... rk-225004/

ADE was planning to field an alternate platform (unknown size) in 2015-2017 time frame.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=265 ... evelopment

Chee yuck, why are you showing all these garage level hobbyist stuff.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Oct 2014 18:57

K_Rohit wrote:There is confirmation from the MOD AR that the Kolkata actually has the LRSAM installed (page 88-89). And not the Barak-1 (temporary installation) as some here had predicted. The Barak-8 system has not been tested but is still installed on an operational warship? Are we missing something here?

Perhaps Barak-1 are fitted into Barak-8 launchers, Israel just tested an improved Barak missile that can intercept super sonic targets and could be active guided. I wouldn't be surprised if the most recent order are for updated missiles.

The Navy Successfully Tested an Upgraded "Barak" Missile System

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 13 Oct 2014 20:36

Hindustan Times ‏@htTweets 51m51 minutes ago

India to scrap Rs. 6,000-cr deal for minesweepers, reports @rahulsinghx http://read.ht/kDP

Middlemen aren’t allowed in the Indian defence sector. A top defence ministry official told HT, “The deal is on the verge of being cancelled. It was not above board.”

The decision to scrap the deal will hurt the navy as its minesweeping capabilities are at an all-time low and a fresh tender will add to the force’s agonising wait – the procurement of minesweepers will be delayed by five to six years.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Oct 2014 03:26

I am bewildered.Is the new dispensation no better than that of its predecessor,which cancelled everything whenever there was a sniff of something irregular? The Q to be asked is has there been ANY defence deal in recent times that has not had a whiff of "tilt" or something more behind the decision? The cabinet/MOD should take swift decisions when it comes to critically important deficiencies,otherwise it will have to pay dearly for its dereliction of duty ,the dear Lord forbid if it comes to a conflict.The decision on the LUH is also incomprehensible as the desi helo will never arrive (from the manner in which the programme is moving) before 2020 and the IA/IAF ill have to soldier on with the existing antique pieces of which one recently crashed.

Wanting everything built in India by the Modi regime is v.laudable,but when the DPSUs cannot seamlessly absorb high tech in defence and are struggling with major projects,heavily delayed causing great distress to the armed forces,the DM/PM must plug the gap from anywhere asap.Mine warfare is the cheapest form of asymmetric naval warfare ,used to good effect by the Iranians in the Gulf a long time ago,where large tankers had to negotiate Gulf waters with warships trailing behind,as the larger maritime vessels were less susceptible to Iranian mines.Imagine our predicament if a few Paki subs laid mines at the entrances to our major naval bases.We hardly have 6-8 subs in fighting condition too to ward them off.

PS:Remember that is exactly what the Ghazi was attempting to do in '71. The PN has far more capable AIP subs today hich could carry out the same task.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Oct 2014 05:13

Karan M wrote:There is confirmation from the MOD AR that the Kolkata actually has the LRSAM installed (page 88-89). And not the Barak-1 (temporary installation) as some here had predicted. The Barak-8 system has not been tested but is still installed on an operational warship? Are we missing something here?

The missiles..

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 14 Oct 2014 08:41

Karan M wrote:There is confirmation from the MOD AR that the Kolkata actually has the LRSAM installed (page 88-89). And not the Barak-1 (temporary installation) as some here had predicted. The Barak-8 system has not been tested but is still installed on an operational warship? Are we missing something here?

The missiles..

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Oct 2014 11:08

pushkar.bhat wrote:Anyone heard any storm damage assessment post Hudhud?

Navy partly restores communication lines - S.Anandan, The Hindu

The Navy on Monday restored both runways at naval air station INS Dega under the Eastern Naval Command in Vizag that were flooded in the downpour that accompanied cyclone ‘Hudhud.’

Maritime recce aircraft Dornier and naval helicopters conducted sorties from the air station to gauge the extent of the disaster and to chip in with relief. Civil aircraft could not operate as the building housing air traffic control and other structures had collapsed, sources said.

The Navy was able to also partly restore its communication lines. Antennas of naval satellite Rukmani that had been removed as a precautionary measure would soon be reinstalled to resume operations.

Volna tower on Dolphin Hill, the tower used for alignment of the Volna surface-to-air missiles (SAM) fitted on some Rajput-class destroyers, collapsed in the cyclonic storm.

Early on Monday, a P8-I long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft was airborne from INS Rajali at Arakkonam to assess the extent of damage caused by the cyclone. A Navy spokesperson said preventive measures helped minimise the damage to the Naval Dockyard. Some 24 diving teams carried out rescue and relief operations in and around Vizag.