Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Oct 2014 08:43

Guys, it is heartening that the tender has been issued to so many SDRE SMEs. The number of warhead is quoted as 10, we should atleast see 5 missile tests.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Oct 2014 08:44

Yagnasri wrote:When is Nirbhay getting tested? Monsoon season is almost over.

Tarmak tweeted that it is going to be in the first half of October.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Oct 2014 08:46

Only question, if we on a public forum are able to monitor so much, have in the name of transparency and corruption give too many of our secrets away.

I hope we have separate covert means where we can hide our black programmes and capabilities within the country.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Oct 2014 09:28

Aditya_V wrote: I hope we have separate covert means where we can hide our black programmes and capabilities within the country.

There are so many projects whose prototypes have existed for years about which we don't hear about at all, other than a fleeting mention is some report or other, because they are shrouded in secrecy.
For eg:-
Aditya Gas Dynamic Laser DEW system.
Anything related to EW capabilities.
Anything related to the new family of PGMs under development.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Oct 2014 10:12

It looks like a dispenser casing. The slots are to carry the real EFP.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Oct 2014 10:32

Thakur, thats good to hear. It is very important that the enemy underestimates you in war and losses his critical assets in battle early.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Oct 2014 11:45

ramana wrote:It looks like a dispenser casing. The slots are to carry the real EFP.

Ramana, MEFP waheads are unibody. No dispensing of sub-munitions. Think of a shaped charge with several shape charge like projectiles (effective upto a great distance) emanating from a single package at speeds up to mach 6. The slots are probably for reinforcing the side walls.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Oct 2014 12:44

Thakur_B wrote:
ramana wrote:It looks like a dispenser casing. The slots are to carry the real EFP.
Ramana, MEFP waheads are unibody. No dispensing of sub-munitions. Think of a shaped charge with several shape charge like projectiles (effective upto a great distance) emanating from a single package at speeds up to mach 6. The slots are probably for reinforcing the side walls.

MEFPs as the name "Multiple Explosively Formed Penetrator " suggests are "self forging projectiles" which are formed by an explosion. The force of the blast molds the liner into any of a number of shapes, depending on the shape of the plate and how the explosive is detonated. The detonator can be fired in different arrangements causing different types of waveform in the explosive, resulting in either a long-rod penetrator, an aerodynamic slug projectile, or multiple high-velocity fragments.

See more info on MEFP here @ http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA432897

in the tender, the 16 holes / groves are meant to act as a Sieve to produce multiple projectiles. The effect of such a detonation would be devastating to soft skinned vehicles and even buildings.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 03 Oct 2014 12:46

Aditya_V wrote:Only question, if we on a public forum are able to monitor so much, have in the name of transparency and corruption give too many of our secrets away.

Valid point... but then there is also extensive Psych ops going on...

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 03 Oct 2014 17:39

What we actually get to see is what we are shown.

PsyOps is now an integral part. Imagine I say that we are working on a next gen anti-armour projectile system, which splits into two on launching with both top-attack and in line attack system at the same time.
Later after say a few months this is again posted/comes up in discussions, soon this becomes a part of the capability projection that might come up during war. It is possible that the enemy fears this or chases his tail while coming up with a solution. So yes, both pros and cons.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2014 09:02

Thakurji, Patha hain. Once designed a W shaped thing that uncoils like a cobra!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Oct 2014 12:55

The India Express is reporting that DRDO is readying a Cannister based Agni-V for testing. this is to be followed by multiple Agnoy (lesser ones) and then Nirbhay LRCM.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 465547.ece

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 07 Oct 2014 16:28

ramana wrote:Thakurji, Patha hain. Once designed a W shaped thing that uncoils like a cobra!

You had my curiosity, now you have my attention

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 07 Oct 2014 21:43

Exceeeeellent News

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 08 Oct 2014 08:49

Gentlemen,
Saurav Jha has tweeted about the LRSAM tests, it looks like multiple rounds have been successfully done, wonder what is holding up induction on IN ships? a Noob Pooch, Are they being produced in desh or in Israel currently. I know eventually they would be produced by BDL.

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 08 Oct 2014 11:12

^^^^
There is wealth of information in the MoD Annual report (link posted in other thread). Saurav Jha's tweets are quote verbatim from that report. There were other nuggets too,

eg. 2 sets of launchers, radars and other electronics for SRSAM are supplied to be installed on Navy ships.
All most all our shipbuilding yards are completing their modernization projects, MDL now have modular building capability with 300T gaint crane, GRSE has achieved it for modules upto 200T etc. Good info on the Radars and electronics as well.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 08 Oct 2014 16:05

Shrinivasan wrote:The India Express is reporting that DRDO is readying a Cannister based Agni-V for testing. this is to be followed by multiple Agnoy (lesser ones) and then Nirbhay LRCM.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 465547.ece

It says "Capable of destroying enemy satellites, this missile flies at a speed of Mach 24.". IRBM for Satellites ????

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Oct 2014 16:13

you would not need such a huge missile for ASAT role except if targeting Geostationary sats (commsats, GPS)
the Agni1 size might be enough for medium earth orbit like 700km (the ELINT and IMINT sats lurk in that range).
I dont know if anyone plays anymore in low earth orbit, short service life sats except random players like PAKSATs

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 08 Oct 2014 16:16

parshuram wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:The India Express is reporting that DRDO is readying a Cannister based Agni-V for testing. this is to be followed by multiple Agnoy (lesser ones) and then Nirbhay LRCM.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 465547.ece

It says "Capable of destroying enemy satellites, this missile flies at a speed of Mach 24.". IRBM for Satellites ????

Yes of course. Akash also had a nuclear warhead.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Oct 2014 10:38

An earlier report by Saurav Jha said the new NAG seeker has an improved range of 6-7 Km. The MoD report confirms the news:-

HELINA is a 7 plus km third generation Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM) for Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). Critical sub-systems have been realised for the missile system and flight performance has been evaluated through ground flight trials. The autonomous ballistic test has also been conducted from ALH. The land-to-land preliminary trials of HELINA were carried out in September 2013. Helicopter trials of HELINA Fire Control System (FCS) were conducted in December 2013. Propulsion systems have also been tested for HELINA. Flight trials with the reconfigured missile system were conducted which proved the redesigned propulsion, aerodynamic and control performances. The repeat control performance and Lock On Before Launch (LOBL) guided performance at 7 km have been established. HELINA separation flight trials from ALH both from outboard and inboard stations have been successfully conducted ensuring suitability of the modified Propulsion Configuration for Helicopter Launch.

This should make NAMICA an excellent strike platform, increasing the effective range from 4 km to 7 km, outside the targeting range of most older tanks. A LOBL range of 7 km means that Rudra/LCH/Apache can shoot and scoot, instead guiding HELINA via two way data link till the seeker locks on at 4km range, as was the initial plan.

Also, about DRDL's anti radiation missile NGARM:-

New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (NGARM): A project has been initiated for development of an air launched missile designed for destroying a variety of radar targets on ground. It is planned to have an interception range of 15-100 km from launch altitudes of 100 m to 15 km from Su-30 MKI aircraft. Preliminary Design Review (PDR) of sub-systems and mission review have been completed. Hardware fabrication including rocket motor fabrication is in progress.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2014 11:16

^^^How does NAMICA acquire targets at 7 kms range?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Oct 2014 11:22

rohitvats wrote:^^^How does NAMICA acquire targets at 7 kms range?

There were rumours about the EO sights on NAMICA being mounted on a mast, not sure if true. Besides, if the missile seeker can lock on at 7 Km, the same shouldn't be difficult for the sights on NAMICA to do so (if line of sight is available). I am not sure if NAG can be guided by UAVs.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 12 Oct 2014 11:27

With capability of 7km nothing else matters. This range is good enough to produce zillions of Nag/Heli-mounted-Nag. Roughly like Air to Air BVR missile with shoot and scoot routine. Better to drop alternates and get mass production, may be with Russia.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Oct 2014 11:58

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 2m 2 minutes ago

New NAG IIR seeker is good to 7 km in LOAL.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2014 12:24

pankajs wrote:
Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 2m 2 minutes ago

New NAG IIR seeker is good to 7 km in LOAL.

What does the above statement mean?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 12 Oct 2014 12:36

LOAL = Lock on after launch. The new seeker must have been tested.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Oct 2014 12:37

The tweet has been deleted. If it is true, which is not certain, the launch vehicle will have to guide the missile during the initial phase till it locks on.

Hopefully the AeroIndia 2015 will clear the air. LOAL Guidance scheme From AI2011. Start @ 5:00 mins

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2014 12:56

pankajs wrote:The tweet has been deleted. If it is true, which is not certain, the launch vehicle will have to guide the missile during the initial phase till it locks on.

Hopefully the AeroIndia 2015 will clear the air.

Well - that 7 km Lock-on-after-launch using missile seeker was looking fishy to begin with. Couple of points:

1. How does a missile seeker even acquire a target at 7 km range? An attack helicopter with much more powerful EO sensors itself would've issues with acquiring and identifying targets at such a range.

2. Also, as has been reported, HELINA and Rudra/LHC combo will be using a two-way RF command-video data link.

A LOAL technique with RF video link would mean HELINA being fired at max range possible in general direction of the target followed by missile seeker becoming active at about 4 km from the target. This is the range of seeker on NAG as well.

The missile seeker relays back the images to the helicopter using the RF Video link and is assigned a target by the weapons officer. And it autonomously goes ahead and hits the target.

Since the range given for RF Video link is ~10 km and missile range is 7 km, the gunship can stay out of the harms way as it targets the enemy tanks and other vehicles/fortifications.

What I would like to understand is whether such RF video link requires LOS arrangement between helicopter and missile? And what impact would natural obstructions have on RF Video link? Because if it does not require LOS then the missile can be launched in lofted trajectory from behind natural features.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 12 Oct 2014 13:01

rohitvats wrote:Well - that 7 km Lock-on-after-launch using missile seeker was looking fishy to begin with. Couple of points:

1. How does a missile seeker even acquire a target at 7 km range? An attack helicopter with much more powerful EO sensors itself would've issues with acquiring and identifying targets at such a range.

I think you meant Lock-on-before-launch going by your first point. I had later added the DRDO presentation made during AI2011 on their LOAL guidance scheme to my last post.

rohitvats wrote:What I would like to understand is whether such RF video link requires LOS arrangement between helicopter and missile? And what impact would natural obstructions have on RF Video link? Because if it does not require LOS then the missile can be launched in lofted trajectory from behind natural features.

Seems to me the heli EO would need LOS to identify and track the target till the missile seeker takes over. So can the missile be launched from behind an obstruction?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2014 14:04

pankajs wrote: I think you meant Lock-on-before-launch going by your first point. I had later added the DRDO presentation made during AI2011 on their LOAL guidance scheme to my last post.

rohitvats wrote:What I would like to understand is whether such RF video link requires LOS arrangement between helicopter and missile? And what impact would natural obstructions have on RF Video link? Because if it does not require LOS then the missile can be launched in lofted trajectory from behind natural features.
Seems to me the heli EO would need LOS to identify and track the target till the missile seeker takes over. So can the missile be launched from behind an obstruction?

Yes - I meant the LOBL. Thanks for correction.

And while searching for the answers on HELINA guidance, I also chanced upon the same video which you're linked. Each and every jingo on BRF needs to see that video to understand what we're doing with HELINA and plans for future.

The video very nicely explains all the points about guidance and answers the queries I had. Some important points:

1. The program director also talks about difficulty in acquiring the target at 7 km range even with powerful EO systems on board an attack helicopter. Current seeker on HELINA (and NAG) cannot 'see' beyond 3-4 km.

2. There is an element of LOS system at least in the initial phase; the gunship needs to be pointing towards the general area where the target(s) are. Once the WSO identifies the target/general area of the target, the helicopter is aligned to +- 5 degree in azimuth to the axis of TAS. And TAS is put on auto-tracking mode.

3. LRF used to find the range of the target/target area (LOS requirement). The trajectory of the missile is calculated by on board computer - lofted or otherwise. The WSO can also decide on the trajectory of the missile.

4. The missile seeker is slaved to the 'direction' of the TAS - it will maintain +-1 degree in azimuth to where the target gate of the TAS is centered. The actual target may or may not be visible.

5. Once the target is within the range of the missile seeker, the missile starts relaying back the images via down-link to the WSO.

6. The WSO identifies and locks the missile on a particular target - however, he also has the option of guiding the missile till end-point using the RF Video down-link and TAS of the helicopter.

7. The FOV of HELINA is currently 3 degree which they're working on reducing to 2 degree.

8. Each LCH can carry max of 8 HELINA missiles with 4 missiles per wing @ 2 missiles per weapon station.

9. There is a separate/autonomous RF link channel (Transmission-Reception System) on each side for each set of 4 missiles; the same is mounted on each wing between the two weapon pylons.

10. Jam proof RF link with high quality images being transferred to the WSO from missile seeker.

11. The 2 x missile tubes on each pylon require only 2 minutes to be changed/replaced.

12. He mentions that tandem warhead is same as on NAG which has been a tremendous success - 'We're able to defeat ERA's of thickness up to 800mm'

13. Future plan - have seeker which is powerful enough to have LOBL capability at 7 km range. Also, use of INS system for missile guidance.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 12 Oct 2014 14:49

Old IIR Seeker: Nag - 4Km Range (in better conditions), 2.5Km (in extreme conditions); HELINA - 7Km Range
New IIR Seeker (with higher resolution FPA): Nag - 6-7Km Range (in better conditions), 4Km Range (in extreme conditions); HELINA - >10Km Range.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2014 15:13

^^^As per above presentation, the 'OLD' HELINA had the same seeker as NAG and this was as of AI 2011. That is why in the presentation he says that once the target is in range of missile seeker, the missile seeker relays back the target to WSO. The 'OLD' HELINA had 7 km missile range with seeker range of 4 kms.

So, which 'OLD' HELINA and seeker are you referring to?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Oct 2014 17:11

hecky wrote:Old IIR Seeker: Nag - 4Km Range (in better conditions), 2.5Km (in extreme conditions); HELINA - 7Km Range
New IIR Seeker (with higher resolution FPA): Nag - 6-7Km Range (in better conditions), 4Km Range (in extreme conditions); HELINA - >10Km Range.

The seeker was/is the same in both variants. The difference was in LOAL/LOBL mode of operation.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2014 19:38

^^^Correct. The main difference is the two-way RF Video link developed for HELINA. Which is a very encouraging sign because even the Spike-ER from Israel uses optic cable for this task on their helicopter launched version. Frankly - before missile seeker reaches a level for 7 km LOBL performance, the TAS on LCH/Combat helicopters will need that capability. If a much more powerful EO sensor of a helicopter can have issues with identification of targets at 7 km range, expecting a miniature seeker (relative) on a missile to be able to do so in all weather conditions would be asking for too much.

John · Post by **John** » 12 Oct 2014 22:38

.

rohitvats wrote:Which is a very encouraging sign because even the Spike-ER from Israel uses optic cable for this task on their helicopter launched version.

There is a reason for that actually fibre optic guidance provides immunity to jamming and interference. Even Hizb supposedly have deployed jammers to try to jam Satellite and GPS guided weapons.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Oct 2014 02:55

From NAL's annual director's report 2013-2014

For the first time in the laboratory, drop test of stores from a SU-30MKI aircraft model in NAL’s 1.5m low speed wind tunnel using Froude scaling principles to enable the tests at low speeds (M<0.3) has been carried out. The study provided the ideal conditions for the stores release at actual flight Mach Nos. including the deflection setting angles for the fore and aft fins.
<SNIP>
Further, wind tunnel tests were also carried out on a scaled isolated store model in the 0.6m trisonic wind tunnel to obtain the aerodynamic loads. The same
store model was attached to a scaled SU-30MKI aircraft model and aerodynamic loads on the complete configuration were determined in the 1.2 m wind tunnel (Fig. 6). Tests were carried out in the Mach number range 0.55 to 1.2 at various angles of attack and sideslip to ascertain installation effects, store load in carriage position and in aircraft interference flow-field.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 13 Oct 2014 07:20

Nuclear-capable missile to be tested on October 17
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 74648.aspx

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 13 Oct 2014 08:40

the article from the last post

Nuclear-capable missile to be tested on October 17

India will test-fire the nuclear-capable Nirbhay cruise missile from the integrated test range at Balasore in Odisha on October 17, the second launch of the indigenous weapon developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

All eyes will be on the upcoming launch as the Nirbhay’s much-hyped maiden launch last March had failed to hit the pre-designated target in the Bay of Bengal. When ready, the missile will be able to deliver nuclear warheads at ranges of up to 1,000 km.

The DRDO had to terminate the Nirbhay flight mid-way in March 2013 after the long-range missile deviated from its intended course, leading to some delays in the programme. A senior DRDO official said glitches in the missile’s inertial navigation system had been ironed out.

“The first test was a partial success as several mission objectives were met. The upcoming test is crucial as we have to demonstrate the capability of the missile,” he added. It will require a few more successful tests before being declared ready for induction.

Low-flying cruise missiles such as the Nirbhay can easily slip past enemy air-defence systems due to small radar cross section. The Nirbhay will be configured to be launched from multiple platforms such as land, air and sea.

Source : Hindustan Times

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Oct 2014 14:37

France Extends Help to Expedite 'Maitri'

...

Contradicting the IAF claims, another MoD official said, “As far as I understand, there is no match between two missile systems. While the range of SRSAM will be of 40 km, Akash’s range is only 25 km. Moreover, the SRSAM will be much cheaper than Akash, if produced in India.”

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 13 Oct 2014 14:44

When is Nirbhay is being tested. Already there is a cyclone in east coast and Monsoon season is over.