Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shrinivasan » 08 Oct 2014 20:12

merlin wrote:6 new of the 2nd batch were ordered. 1 more was ordered separately to replace the once that crashed.
Thanks Merlin... any links or sources for this? even the MOD AR does not talk about the replacement order?!?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shrinivasan » 08 Oct 2014 20:16

chackojoseph wrote:A squadron number focused IAF should re consider the concept?
Indian Air Force in the age of Unmanned, Hypersonic, Intelligent, Stealthy, and CPGS world
Quantity has its own quality... we need both, particularly in a two front war. In 1965, our Air Force was "Supposedly Inferior" to the Fizzlya, but it was able to hold its ground and even inflict some damage on the enemy. People, Process and Technology are all important... in the case of IAF, process encompasses Strategy, Tactics, Procedures etc... People and Technology are apparent... Hence IAF's fetish with a Light, Medium, Heavy category Air Force.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Victor » 08 Oct 2014 20:57

ravip wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
P1 = Pawan = Panchi ?


http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/eye-in-the-sky-army-eyeing-iit-made-uav-for-border-patrolling/article1-1253989.aspx.

Our pee one developed by eye eye ttian!!!

From the report:
The project started in January 2014 and was jointly funded by IIT Kanpur and Prabhu Goel foundation. “The entire system was designed using a systems engineering approach, to meet the desired specifications and target the need of Low Altitude Long Endurance (LALE).

They've reached this far in less than a year. The specs were tightly controlled to fill a specific need--observation--and nothing else. ITT Kanpur has a pretty advanced aeromodelling club and Aurora Integrated Systems of B'lore was started by 7 of them. Prabhu Goel, whose foundation is funding the effort, is also an IIT-K alumnus and founding member of TiE. Kudos to them and hope GoI will give them full support.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 08 Oct 2014 21:15

Can the IAF spare a IL-76 and a MiG-29 to this team?

Oh, what the heck, just give one of each to them.

While they wait they can also build a few diff wind tunnels too.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 08 Oct 2014 21:44

iit kanpur also has a airstrip of sorts for towed glider flights and a aeronautical dept with its own wind tunnel. so some amt of testing can be done on campus itself before moving to proper test ranges like kolar.http://students.iitk.ac.in/glidingclub/

the place is a bit old school (motorola/intel/netz) type vs the flashy bratty metro iits like mumbai or delhi which always hog the limelight with their placements and well funded festivals like mood indigo :-?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_27862 » 08 Oct 2014 21:46

Singha wrote:iit kanpur also has a airstrip of sorts for towed glider flights and a aeronautical dept with its own wind tunnel. so some amt of testing can be done on campus itself before moving to proper test ranges like kolar.


IIT K has a Cessna 206H (with glass cockpit) and a Hansa aircraft........

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2014 08:22

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Shrinivasan » 09 Oct 2014 10:13

^^^ Thats all Migs in one shot... If I ID them correctly. the lead fighter is a Mig25 Foxbat. The second one is a Mig 23 Flogger, the third in the foreground with a silver grey paint is a Mig 21 - Fishbed, the one behind the Mig 21 is a Mig 27 (with its Army style Camo) and the last fighter holding the rear is the Mig 29 Fulcrum.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby merlin » 09 Oct 2014 10:53

Shrinivasan wrote:
merlin wrote:6 new of the 2nd batch were ordered. 1 more was ordered separately to replace the once that crashed.
Thanks Merlin... any links or sources for this? even the MOD AR does not talk about the replacement order?!?


FWIW, http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... _C130J.htm

I read another article about the replacement for the crashed one was also ordered, can't locate that now.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2014 19:00

http://brahmand.com/news/Air-version-of ... /1/15.html
NEW DELHI (FINANCIAL EXPRESS): In recent times, the Indian Air Force has witnessed swift expansion with a comprehensive modernisation drive being undertaken to acquire multi-role capability platforms and weapons, along with multi-skill capability of its personnel.

The IAF is now gearing up to induct the 290-km range supersonic BRAHMOS cruise missile after it was successfully inducted in the Indian Army and Navy. Precision weaponry has revolutionised contemporary warfare by multiplying the effectiveness of using air and ground power together. The air-launched BRAHMOS missile system will be a lethal strike power in IAF's arsenal.

The BRAHMOS is a state-of-the-art weapon system having no competitors till date. After proving its prowess with unmatched speed, precision and power, in land and sea both, BRAHMOS air-launched version is getting ready to be test-flown from the Su-30MKI fighter aircraft of the IAF.

The Su-30MKI armed with BRAHMOS missile is a combination of lethal strike with the ability of air fighting within and beyond the visibility range. It will provide IAF with the capability of attacking targets protected by powerful air defence assets, including aircraft carriers. The air-launched version of the BRAHMOS missile is under progress and the first test-firing is expected to take place either by the end of this year or in the beginning of next year.

Sudhir Kumar Mishra, CEO & MD of BrahMos Aerospace, has stated that BrahMos Aerospace will begin delivery of the air-launched version of BRAHMOS missile system to the IAF by 2016. The air version of BRAHMOS will be lighter than its other variants and will weigh 2.5 tonne, though it would be equally potent in firepower and devastating capability as its range and maximum speed of 290-km and 2.8 Mach respectively will remain unchanged.

The weight of the 3000-kg missile has been reduced by half a tonne so as to be integrated on the Sukhoi fighter which can carry a maximum payload of 8,000-kg. BrahMos Aerospace is closely coordinating with HAL, the Indian Air Force and its Russian partners to ensure that the maiden trial of the BRAHMOS air-launched version takes place at the earliest as deliveries will commence from 2016.

The arming of BRAHMOS on Su-30MKI will dramatically enhance IAF's capability for neutralising seaborne as well as land targets far from boundaries. The combination of the strike fighter aircraft and supersonic cruise missile will together give the IAF tremendous combat potential.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby putnanja » 11 Oct 2014 04:28

An account of a SU30-MKI that went down when ammo detontated on the wing, and how the two airmen survived ...

Ejecting At Night From a Doomed, Disintegrating Sukhoi: A Hero's Story

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby nachiket » 11 Oct 2014 04:43

putnanja wrote:An account of a SU30-MKI that went down when ammo detontated on the wing, and how the two airmen survived ...

Ejecting At Night From a Doomed, Disintegrating Sukhoi: A Hero's Story

Spine chilling stuff. Well at least we know why the third MKI went down now. I don't know if the reason had been mentioned before. The first (or the seond) crash, was because of the FBW system getting shut off. That leaves one other crash whose cause we (or atleast I) don't know.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 11 Oct 2014 06:02

Talk about living on the edge!!!

BTW, this was the fourth crash, on Feb 19, 2013.

This was the fourth crash of an IAF Su-30 MKI. The previous three were on 13 Dec 2011, November 2009 and 30 April 2009.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 11 Oct 2014 06:36

putnanja wrote:An account of a SU30-MKI that went down when ammo detontated on the wing, and how the two airmen survived ...

Ejecting At Night From a Doomed, Disintegrating Sukhoi: A Hero's Story

..and suddenly, out of the blue, the military aviation thread actually has something interesting and informative.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 13 Oct 2014 02:35

NAL's Annual Director's report is out

About Saras:
In a notable achievement in composite construction, the Advanced Composite Division team from NAL won the prestigious JEC Asia Innovation Award (Fig. 1) for innovative composite construction of horizontal tail (HT) bottom integrated skin of 14 seat SARAS aircraft. The innovative construction resulted in reduction of 25% weight of the bottom sub structure and also eliminated 2500 fasteners. The award was conferred to CSIR-NAL by the organizers of the JEC Asia during 25- 27, June 2013 in Singapore.

Under the laboratory’s major civil aircraft programme, more than fifty ground runs have been carried out on SARAS PT1N aircraft in association with ASTE,
IAF to assess the functionality of various aircraft systems. Subsequently, six low speed taxi trials on this aircraft have been completed by the IAFASTE crew at the HAL airport, and the results were on expected lines. The PT1N aircraft is currently positioned at the Golden Jubilee Aircraft Hanger to carry out minor modifications based on the RFAs issued by ASTE, prior to proceeding with the high speed taxi trials. High Speed Taxi Trials (HSTT) and Flight Testing will be taken up after obtaining formal approval for extension of the project is obtained from the competent authority. (par kab? :(( )


About NM-5
Progress has been made in the development of five-seat general civil aircraft CNM5, the country’s first civil transport aircraft development in PPP mode in collaboration with Mahindra Aerospace Private Ltd. A way forward and work share arrangement between CSIR-NAL and MAPL has been charted out for certification by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, Australia.


Other test beds (For NAL-Kadet UAV?)
Two Hansa aircraft at CSIR-NAL (VTHBL & VT-HOA) have been re-registered for flying under experimental category in order to conduct flight research activities at NAL.


About DRISHTI
Further, I am very happy to inform you that NAL’s DRISHTI, a high tech indigenous system for estimating visibility during landing and takeoff at airports received prestigious awards during the year. It has received 'Meritorious Invention' award from National Research Development Corporation (NRDC), 'IETE Corporate
Award' from Institution of Electronics and Telecommunication Engineers (IETE), India, and 'Most Innovative Product of the Year' award from Indian Electronics and Semiconductor Association (IESA). The reporting period has seen significant achievements and progress in our programmes.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ramana » 13 Oct 2014 03:35

putnanja wrote:An account of a SU30-MKI that went down when ammo detontated on the wing, and how the two airmen survived ...

Ejecting At Night From a Doomed, Disintegrating Sukhoi: A Hero's Story



Very gripping account.

Brf link in SU-30 thread...

viewtopic.php?p=1413146#p1413146

Most likely the fuze got activated/energized in the ordnance. It bypassed the many relays.

I had earlier thought the weapon was heavier and struck the plane due to aerodynamics.
I was wrong based on above account.

Do we have a picture of the 100Kg bomb to see its aero profile?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 13 Oct 2014 08:22

The following image is of a home that was assessed as having suffered damage from 100 kg of explosive. In the case of the Su 30 - the cockpit remained intact and retained enough control for ejection without loss of life. That says something
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 13 Oct 2014 09:39

ok so who was playing with 100kg of explosive in this house...is that europe or massa? the houses and sidewalk style looks massaish.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 13 Oct 2014 12:21

Considering an AAM has warhead of any where between 8 to 16 kg a explosion even 10-15 m away from the aircraft can bring down the plane and pilot , A 100 Kg explosion on the wings few meters away from cockpit the pilot is very lucky to have a functioning ejection seat and getting the courage to eject safely.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby nachiket » 13 Oct 2014 12:52

Austin wrote:Considering an AAM has warhead of any where between 8 to 16 kg a explosion even 10-15 m away from the aircraft can bring down the plane and pilot , A 100 Kg explosion on the wings few meters away from cockpit the pilot is very lucky to have a functioning ejection seat and getting the courage to eject safely.

Not to mention that there were five other 100kg bombs hanging on the same wing.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 13 Oct 2014 13:07

nachiket wrote:
Austin wrote:Considering an AAM has warhead of any where between 8 to 16 kg a explosion even 10-15 m away from the aircraft can bring down the plane and pilot , A 100 Kg explosion on the wings few meters away from cockpit the pilot is very lucky to have a functioning ejection seat and getting the courage to eject safely.

Not to mention that there were five other 100kg bombs hanging on the same wing.


Yes they could have easily experience sympathetic detonation

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 13 Oct 2014 13:10

Just a question. Does the 100Kg bomb refer to the weight of the bomb, or the amount of high-grade explosives in it, or to the destruction equivalent of 100Kg of TNT?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Oct 2014 13:15

Refers to the weight of the bomb, it probably has 40KG of Explosives in it. Regarding sympatetic detonation, I think the other 5 bombs dropped expect the that malfunctioned, but still for the pilots to escape was a miracle.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 14 Oct 2014 04:15

It underscores the ruggedness of Soviet/Russian eqpt.Their weapon systems which might be marginally less sophisticated than western eqpt. ,but are built for rough use and heavy punishment.The salvaged hulls of the Kursk and SRatna show that the pressure hulls were almost intact other than at the bows,despite the massive explosive damage caused to both subs.It is why they've lasted so long in Indian colours,operating way beyond their sell-by date as we've seen with almost all Russian eqpt.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 14 Oct 2014 08:03

Philip wrote:It underscores the ruggedness of Soviet/Russian eqpt.Their weapon systems which might be marginally less sophisticated than western eqpt. ,but are built for rough use and heavy punishment.The salvaged hulls of the Kursk and SRatna show that the pressure hulls were almost intact other than at the bows,despite the massive explosive damage caused to both subs.It is why they've lasted so long in Indian colours,operating way beyond their sell-by date as we've seen with almost all Russian eqpt.

Philip - the Su-7 also developed a reputation for being able to take great punishment and still survive.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 14 Oct 2014 12:35

Yes,I remember the pic of an SU-7 shot to pieces,tail looked like a mosquito net piloted by Sqd. Ldr.Mangeet Singh(?,pl. ck.) It was a mystery how the aircraft kept flying and how he landed it.

Some interesting news of a new Russian strat. bomber and tactics currently being used in recent AWSTs. The Tu-160s (13) and TU-95s (60+) are being upgraded with common systems used in the SU-34s,which are smaller and more capable than the Tu-22 M3 Backkfires.These aircraft will be operational until the new bomber is in service.The Tu-95s,same type as out naval Tu-142 Bears,originally developed as strat. bombers have incredible range and usually do not need refuelling.Both bombers will carry the new KH-101/2 LR LACM with a phenomenal range of 2,700nm(!) will be escorted by upgraded MIG-31BMs,giving the attacker various options.recently a flock of the same ,with two Il-78 tankers,flew within 55Nm of Alaska and turned back when they were intercepted by US F-22s.

The IAF's glaring absence of a dedicated strat. bomber should be met asap with one option being the SU-34,making it easy to acquire,induct and maintain as it is a Flanker variant of which we are acquiring 270+.The IN could also use its 8 TU-142s both for the maritime role as well as the strat. role should a crisis arise.Acquiring another batch of which Russia has dozens in mothballs would enhance the strat. bombing capability against China if they are equipped with LR LACMs like Nirbhay which is to be tested again shortly. One wonders why there has been so little debate about the need for a strat./tact. LR bombers to deal with China,landmass as well as in the Indo-Asia-Paciific maritime arena.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srin » 14 Oct 2014 12:59

Ahh - the familiar Su-34 argument all over again. Let's start with: how is it different from the MKI ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 14 Oct 2014 14:02

-108. the su34 is not that +ve over the mki except perhaps slightly better range and the toilet. it is not a strategic bomber neither it carries enough in conventional role to be the kind of terror weapon (in sanitized skies) the B1/B52/Blackjack can be armed with 100s of bombs.

I suppose we could get ourself a few PAKDA when it comes. but in the meantime focus on air & ground launched nirbhay also in parallel to the sea launch model to perfect the technology and keep things like pylon interfaces ready to fit to the PAKDA rotary bomb rack etc.

unfortunately any dreams of a A330 bomber conversion are unlikely to happen.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby RajD » 14 Oct 2014 17:45

BREAKING NEWS - SU-30MKI GOES DOWN NEAR PUNE, FURTHER DETAILS AWAITED. BOTH THE PILOTS ARE SAFE.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 14 Oct 2014 21:34

CROSS POST:

And now the 56 Naval Utility helicopters will be made in India. Tender for 56 naval choppers scrapped

HAL will soon have serious competition on its hands with respect to helicopters (excellent news). There will be a competitor for LUH, Dhruv (these NUH replacements) and medium-weight IMRH (though NMRH replacements). HAL does hold an upper hand in the ultra-light (LUH) and light-weight (Dhruv) categories for the military. But it has a weaker hand in the light civilian versions and medium-weight helicopters. Interesting times ahead.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 15 Oct 2014 02:47

We need a 'Domestic' competitor for HAL for sure. It's necessary to keep the contractor in check, lean and nimble.

Just see how prices have started ballooning for US once consolidation in defense aviation led to Lockheed and Boeing vs. numerous suppliers previously. The high expense is basically a barrier for new entrants.

Future US planes (F-22,35...) are coming from Lockheed only - a single supplier scenario, and check how they are been royally scr*wed by price and development cost escalations.

Not surprised Textron came up with the 20 million fighter as Lockheed cannot even play in this price range while justifying 100 million plus F-35 prices. Now why in the world are we paying 150 million plus for Rafale is another question - not even worth debating as it is outlandish^infinity.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 15 Oct 2014 02:54

Your post was all fine till you compared the Scorpion and the F-35.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 15 Oct 2014 03:20

nik wrote:We need a 'Domestic' competitor for HAL for sure. It's necessary to keep the contractor in check, lean and nimble.

Just see how prices have started ballooning for US once consolidation in defense aviation led to Lockheed and Boeing vs. numerous suppliers previously. The high expense is basically a barrier for new entrants.

Future US planes (F-22,35...) are coming from Lockheed only - a single supplier scenario, and check how they are been royally scr*wed by price and development cost escalations.

...


Basically, you are referring to Oligopoly. From HAL monopoly, it will become an oligopoly with one or two additional player(s).

An oligopoly is a market form in which a market or industry is dominated by a small number of sellers (oligopolists). Oligopolies can result from various forms of collusion which reduce competition and lead to higher prices for consumers.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby abhik » 15 Oct 2014 07:20

So indegnious designs will have to compete with foreign owned designs, #ScrewdriverMakeInIndia ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_28797 » 15 Oct 2014 07:29

abhik wrote:So indegnious designs will have to compete with foreign owned designs, #ScrewdriverMakeInIndia ?


Where did you reach that conclusion?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_26622 » 15 Oct 2014 08:51

Design needs to be Indian. In fact we should have two design bureaus like MIG and Sukhoi - otherwise bottleneck will shift to ADA/NAL...Wishlist!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 15 Oct 2014 13:31

Srin,in a report on China and Russia developing new strat. bombers,the SU-34 was rated better than the Tu-22M3 even though it was much smaller.I've in the intl. td. thrown a few thoughts based upon the report.Why the SU-34 may be a better bet for the IAF is that it would be easiest to absorb since the MKI is being manufactured here.Commonality of systems,components,etc. Russia has the single-seat SU-35,equiv to the MKI and is yet manufacturing the SU-34,which is a dedicated bomber variant.Perhaps the Super-Sukhoi being developed for the IAF could peform similarly,but in terms of endurance and crew facilities,would lack the loo,etc. on the bomber.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby JTull » 15 Oct 2014 16:52

abhik wrote:So indegnious designs will have to compete with foreign owned designs, #ScrewdriverMakeInIndia ?


Not such a bad thing, especially if you want to build up manufacturing skillset in India. Someone argued against giving that $12bln Tejas-Mk2 contract to private companies precisely for lack of that skillset outside HAL.

I'd like to to stretch this a bit. For all the imported nuclear reactors that we're negotiating at this moment, one major stumbling block is that foreign companies want entire reactors to be imported, upto the last screw. India would like most of the major components to manufactured locally to their specification. We only lack the latest instrumentation which can be imported (until we learn to produce those).

So, we're going about it in the right way.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srin » 15 Oct 2014 17:46

Philip wrote:Srin,in a report on China and Russia developing new strat. bombers,the SU-34 was rated better than the Tu-22M3 even though it was much smaller.I've in the intl. td. thrown a few thoughts based upon the report.Why the SU-34 may be a better bet for the IAF is that it would be easiest to absorb since the MKI is being manufactured here.Commonality of systems,components,etc. Russia has the single-seat SU-35,equiv to the MKI and is yet manufacturing the SU-34,which is a dedicated bomber variant.Perhaps the Super-Sukhoi being developed for the IAF could peform similarly,but in terms of endurance and crew facilities,would lack the loo,etc. on the bomber.


Heavens knows why Russia is going for Su-34. Maybe the Su-35 doesn't have the necessary avionics for strike ? There isn't any logic to Russian procurement ... if they are getting Su-35, why are they getting Su-30SM (russianized MKI) and Su-30MK2 (russianized MKK) ? Seems like their version of MNREGA.

IAF seems happy to use MKI for strike missions. So - why complicate the logistics with one more when you have something that is equivalent if not good enough ? And given that MKI uses Israeli and French components (including the targetting pod), I wonder how much %age of LRUs are really compatible ?

I'd have understood the dedicated bomber logic (though not really agreed) if you had asked for IL-476 based bomb truck - capable of carrying a dozen Nirbhays or Brahmoses for stand-off strike.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 15 Oct 2014 17:52

With oil around $85 a barr, wonder where is Russia going to get any funds to buy anything. They need it to be around $115 to make ends meet (balance their famous budget).

India should not make the same mistake again.


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