India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 13 Oct 2014 15:32

Basically all bullies are cowards. So when met with greater force they run away. But paki army is a mad bully. So let us see what the current response will result it. I expect these kind of things happen once in a while.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 13 Oct 2014 16:18

^^^

Rahul Mehta,

we did not use arty - 105 mm, 130 mm or 155 mm. But our volume of mortar and MMG and HMG fire was more than theirs. Thats my info from army formations covering the area. Can't say more here. Nobody is expecting things to quieten down for long. Strong belief that hindus/sikh civilains being trageted. Need MSM and national mainstream to relaise that so that we can respond effectively.

But that apart morale is high, govt has been given various options and feeling is that more coherent and pragmatic thinking is starting after the mudlle of the last decades. One of the happiest people is an ex GOCnC Northern Command who would have been army chief (and a damn fine one I think) if VKS had not been manipulated out early.

God bless Modi.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 13 Oct 2014 20:12

Well worrying about terror attack because of tough stance on border is meaningless because they were happening even when border was quiet and things worked according to their term. They always dictated the term on all fronts. They pulled off terror attacks when they wanted, lit up borders when they wanted and they talked when they wanted. We did absolute zilch about it. At least now we are dictating the border and talks on our terms. The internal security will have to be taken care by home ministry and I'm sure they are working on it. Also, there will have to be deterrent against such terrorist attacks. I think the message is being sent very clearly that it will cost heavily to bakis which is a good sign. If it comes to it, we should not shy from carrying out punitive strikes. There is absolutely no way that they will go for an all out war. Best they can do is to go to UN. We need to exploit their weakness. IMO they will not do a terrorist attack in near future because they will have to prepare for any potential eventuality they might face by this new assertive GOI. I guess they would be sh1t scared of NM as they know what a strong India can do to them and what they themselves are capable of. They will sit and re-analyse the situation and find new options which will take time. By that time we should take out the slipper cells within.

In any case, we can't live with fear forever. We have to take it head on like Israelis do. The rulers of the land of the brave heart victors have disgraced the nation for far too long. Not anymore. Not anymore.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 13 Oct 2014 20:15

^^ I assume you are referring to Gen KT Parnaik.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Oct 2014 20:37

williams wrote:All these analysis is being made, because India has been accommodating Pakistani BS from the beginning. Right from the day Chacha Nehru went to UN to the time when MMS indulged in sharm el sheik fiasco, we are perceived as naive fools who will tolerate Paki thugs no matter what. Most of Paki thug acts have become routine now. Talking to Hurriyat is a routine. Firing across the border is a routine. Infiltration is a routine. Nuclear blackmail is a routine. So these analysts are questioning why make a big fuss about these routine things. Peacefully accept these routine things for the sake of democracy.
Time has come to put the thugs in their place.

Regarding Chacha's trip to UN, he resisted advice to go to the UN and get the Pukes branded as the agressor during the initial days, finally after all the damage was done and the forces were making gains, he went to the UN and managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. He agreed to ceasefire, pullback, plebisite and what not...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Oct 2014 20:43

As couple of posters have mentioned above, Internal Security is a worry... We have Diwali coming shortly and the pigs will defenitely try some dramabaazi. More worisome is the situation is states like Bihar, UP, WB where the ruling dispensation is so islam pasand, will goto any length to please MALSI. Ex: in WB, after the explosionin a bomb making factory of jihadis, WB police collected all explosives and performed a conftrolled explosion to destroy all evidence before the NIA team came on site... The story got out due to an Initial assessment of the situation submitted by one of the first responders...

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 13 Oct 2014 20:54

I am proposing creation of an air wing inside BSF (or anywhere else really except IAF) akin to 'Homeland Air Defense'. LCA is a short to medium range quick reaction fighter which fits the 'defense' needs perfectly. If we have 1000 of these birds, then no one will dare take us on.

Another reason been that I am 'DONE' with IAF flagellation of LCA and see no end to Rafale fantasizing. Not interested to be stuck in 1970-80-90 or 2000's issues of IAF-ADA-HAL. Time to junk these 'ego' maniacs and move on to serve the next generation.

We have a good bird in our hands and let's make the most of it now!

Ivanev wrote:
nik wrote:We have pushed Paki snakes back in to their sh*t holes, but these scheming bas*ards are going to be back for sure. Expect a year at the most before they try to bite us again.

Are we going to finally equip BSF with Dhanush + Desi weapons locating radars + Nishant and LCA? All of prior weapons are considered below 'royalty' grade while BSF will be more than happy to get their hands on these.
How can BSF operate LCAs? They already operate Nishanth I think.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 13 Oct 2014 21:29

Shrinivasan wrote:As couple of posters have mentioned above, Internal Security is a worry... We have Diwali coming shortly and the pigs will defenitely try some dramabaazi. More worisome is the situation is states like Bihar, UP, WB where the ruling dispensation is so islam pasand, will goto any length to please MALSI. Ex: in WB, after the explosionin a bomb making factory of jihadis, WB police collected all explosives and performed a conftrolled explosion to destroy all evidence before the NIA team came on site... The story got out due to an Initial assessment of the situation submitted by one of the first responders...

Internal security is bloody ****** up.. WB, Assam, Bihar, western UP, TN, Kerala all have sleeper cells..
Suspicious activity going on in Hyd for last few weeks targeted at the Army..

Good news is the man at the top is the best man to deal with it.. The Prime Minister could not have picked a better man for this role.. listen to some of his talks on youtube - the depth & breadth of his understanding is unparalleled..

is anybody following incidents in WB? That's how badly fcucked up is the internal security - hostage to votebank politics... the cops destroyed evidence in a matter of national security involving terrorist modules I mean.. what the fcucking hell is that? The destroyed the bombs without keeping a sample for analysis... NSG wanted to visit blast site to pick samples - the state govt did not let them.

read these links.. feel ashamed..

The terror module was near to the police station, Cops had no clue
http://www.rediff.com/news/special/what ... 141013.htm

NSG team asked for access to blast site to collect samples.. WB govt & police did not let them.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... IIndiaNews

Local SP oversaw destruction of evidence, bungled evidence at blast site
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1141013/j ... DwAwVeNFWj

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 13 Oct 2014 21:43

The morale of the troops at the border is bloody high.. So far not much involvement from the Indian Army (very limited to a few location on the LOC).. Most of the action is for BSF..

In an unprecedented move, PM spoke personally with DG BSF to instruct heavy retaliation..

Biggest threat to the new strategy dealing with Pakistan is the civil society "intellectuals" (Mahesh Bhatt, Pritish Nandy types) and Pak agents in media who are beneficiaries of ISI-sponsored track2 junkets (Barkha Dutt, Shekhar Gupta, Karan Thapar, Mani Shankar Aiyar) who will try to influence civil society opinion about importance of peace...

Just note how many articles peddling Pak point of view will flood print media as well as TV debates.

Nodel Laureattes Ms.Malala the great with her 30year experience in security matters & her Indian counter part will be foisted on us by the W(v)ested interests as angels/messengers of peace.. Full PsyOps will be launched with internal as well as external agents !!

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 13 Oct 2014 21:59

Well, civil society isn't a bunch of drooling retards who will accept whatever is fed them. Even 15-20 year olds know what's cooking in the media. Some people here are dhoti shivering for no particular reason

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 13 Oct 2014 22:51

habal wrote: secondly Pakistan does have longer range artillery, which they haven't used.

the only reason for that being, if we retaliate, they have huge civilian clusters lying directly within range. Lahore to Pakistan which is well within our range is what Bombay or Delhi are to India. But Lahore can be targeted by artillery, while Bombay and Delhi can only be targeted by Cruise/BM.

Now Cruise/BM means nuclear response by India.

So what does Pakistan do. They can't even use artillery without risking Lahore.

I highly doubt this as a reason. If we use artillery to target Lahore, they will probably respond with nukes. They don't have a defined threshold. We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 13 Oct 2014 22:56

We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.

That works both ways. In their demonology, Hindus can and will nuke Makkah.

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 13 Oct 2014 23:02

sanjaykumar wrote:We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.

That works both ways. In their demonology, Hindus can and will nuke Makkah.

Grandoise statements work only in books and newspaper articles. We have a lot more to lose in a nuke war. They are a failed state, we are future world leaders. Ergo, no IG is stupid to go down the path of a nuke war.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 13 Oct 2014 23:04

That is just the paki propaganda that shelling Lahore will invite a nuclear response. That is exactly what they want us to believe. If no threshold is defined why not respond with a nuke for the shelling that it received at the hands of the BSF, which going by pak media was massive? They are not as crazy as they would like us to believe.

Shelling of Lahore will invite shelling of Amritsar. But why go there when we can use the opportunity to take out many of their border fortifications.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Oct 2014 23:07

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.That works both ways. In their demonology, Hindus can and will nuke Makkah.Grandoise statements work only in books and newspaper articles. We have a lot more to lose in a nuke war. They are a failed state, we are future world leaders. Ergo, no IG is stupid to go down the path of a nuke war.

After cleaning the land from Mleccas,Not all but big chunk of the cost of war can be recovered. In long run , it will be net plus.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 13 Oct 2014 23:08

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:
habal wrote: secondly Pakistan does have longer range artillery, which they haven't used.

the only reason for that being, if we retaliate, they have huge civilian clusters lying directly within range. Lahore to Pakistan which is well within our range is what Bombay or Delhi are to India. But Lahore can be targeted by artillery, while Bombay and Delhi can only be targeted by Cruise/BM.

Now Cruise/BM means nuclear response by India.

So what does Pakistan do. They can't even use artillery without risking Lahore.
I highly doubt this as a reason. If we use artillery to target Lahore, they will probably respond with nukes. They don't have a defined threshold. We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.

Saar let me get it straight nukes are not salt/pepper that one can use it on every occasion. The day puki use nuke, Porkistan will be wiped off from this world every single inch of it.

And please stop this dhoti shibering over nuke bogey.

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 Oct 2014 23:09

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote: I highly doubt this as a reason. If we use artillery to target Lahore, they will probably respond with nukes. They don't have a defined threshold. We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.

Using nukes is very risky. They know that. Even that swine Hafeez Sayeed will think twice. If they use a nuke, how much ever small, it will be the end of Pakistan. It may even trigger a chain reaction (:p) leading to WW3 and Islam khatre mein hain could become a reality. Pakistan does have some options before even thinking of nukes like simultaneously activating jihadi sleeper cells all over India.

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 13 Oct 2014 23:27

Saars, hardly dhoti shivering ... I don't care about their existence.
And w.r.t craziness, we already have rogue TSP commanders helping terrorists to almost fire a missile at a USN carrier. I really don't think there is much more craziness left in that rabbit hole.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 13 Oct 2014 23:44

Get a hold on the dhoti shivering there, mister. Pakistanis using Nukes is same as a naked beggar with a gun to his head and stones in the other hand, throwing them at your house and threatening to enter your house and shoot himself if you retaliate. You think the Pakis don't know that using Nukes is suicide for them? They can only send suicide bombers, they don't want to commit suicide themselves! Even if Modi orders a full scale invasion of Pakistan and dares them to throw a single Nuclear projectile across the border, they will still not, because they know India can and will turn every inch of Porkistan into a nuclear wasteland.

And all this is when we are assuming that they have nukes, which itself is in question.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 13 Oct 2014 23:46

by Saurabh
Grandoise statements work only in books and newspaper articles. We have a lot more to lose in a nuke war.

Indeed it is Dhoti Shivering!!!! They have only tested smaller nukes (all evidence points to that about the same or even smaller than the used in Second World war) and their North Korean missiles only hit 50% of the time.

and All great nations and world power do indeed have to go through small tests like these!!!

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 13 Oct 2014 23:50

Lets say they DO use all their 200 nukes on us. What do you think will be our response. It will be their end, even if one of them is used. It is at the peak of the escalation ladder and someone up there must be really really crazy OR really really desperate has to make that call. Bakis jernails and ISI are not suicidal. Which means there is a window where we can act, and I am sure everyone involved from our side have factored this in their modeling of the situation.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 13 Oct 2014 23:57

Grandoise statements work only in books and newspaper articles. We have a lot more to lose in a nuke war. They are a failed state, we are future world leaders. Ergo, no IG is stupid to go down the path of a nuke war.

It is called game theory. Can Pakistan trust India to be rational whilst its strategy is predicated on India believing it to be irrational.

muraliravi · Post by **muraliravi** » 14 Oct 2014 01:51

SBajwa wrote:
by Saurabh
Grandoise statements work only in books and newspaper articles. We have a lot more to lose in a nuke war.
Indeed it is Dhoti Shivering!!!! They have only tested smaller nukes (all evidence points to that about the same or even smaller than the used in Second World war) and their North Korean missiles only hit 50% of the time.

and All great nations and world power do indeed have to go through small tests like these!!!

Pakis dont have any nukes that work, this was proven during the chagai test and the PU sample that was picked up. They detonated chinese loans after the 1st failure. Everything else is just hawa.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 14 Oct 2014 02:10

LokeshC wrote:Lets say they DO use all their 200 nukes on us. What do you think will be our response. It will be their end, even if one of them is used. It is at the peak of the escalation ladder and someone up there must be really really crazy OR really really desperate has to make that call. Bakis jernails and ISI are not suicidal. Which means there is a window where we can act, and I am sure everyone involved from our side have factored this in their modeling of the situation.

The nuke escalation calculus does not work that way. As ABV once said, "we are not going to wait for them to bomb us...."

We (as others) have a launch on warning system in place. Once certain event chains start occurring in Pakiland, the Indian response events are initiated. Remember, our NFU is only against non-nuclear weapon states. Pakistan is not a NNWS.

This is why the pakis have toned down the nuke rhetoric: they don't want inadvertently convince us they are about to launch. They are rational not suicidal. For the latter they have cannon fodderayeen.

patel · Post by **patel** » 14 Oct 2014 02:10

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.

That works both ways. In their demonology, Hindus can and will nuke Makkah.
Grandoise statements work only in books and newspaper articles. We have a lot more to lose in a nuke war. They are a failed state, we are future world leaders. Ergo, no IG is stupid to go down the path of a nuke war.

Well this is a risk we have to take then isn't it? I hope you sleep well at night though and oh, do have some confidence in your countrymen. After decades we have men who care for this country at the helm, interesting times ahead for sure.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 14 Oct 2014 02:50

Let's keep this in mind. We wiped out northern flight infantry during Kargil and shelled their artillery positions across the border. One single raid at Munto Dhalo by itself dispatched dozens of officers and over 300 dispatched in five minutes. That didn't escalate to nuke attacks. We have a margin that stretches all the way up to the intensity of kargil action.

member_28442 · Post by **member_28442** » 14 Oct 2014 03:38

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote: I highly doubt this as a reason. If we use artillery to target Lahore, they will probably respond with nukes. They don't have a defined threshold. We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.

in that case, it would be smart of us to nuke them first if they start heavy artillery fire

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Oct 2014 04:24

Anujan wrote:Let's keep this in mind. We wiped out northern flight infantry during Kargil and shelled their artillery positions across the border. One single raid at Munto Dhalo by itself dispatched dozens of officers and over 300 dispatched in five minutes. That didn't escalate to nuke attacks. We have a margin that stretches all the way up to the intensity of kargil action.

I take it couple more notches...
1) 400% of all terrorist action in Pakeeland in the past decade has been blamed on India - no new-clear threat
2) PNS Mehran - blamed on India - Krachi, Sindh
3) Lahore Airport Attack - blamed on India - some Indian injections were showcased as proof - Lawhore, Pakjab
4) Current firing across the IB - Pakees have been pummeled (by their own admission as well as by multiple sources within Desh and elsewhere), this is in Pakjab proper

In all this, the nuclear detergent did not wash... even under mickey mouse Singh, they did not dare do anything. Assorted numb-nut cried themselves hoarse... some thing today. Even 3.5 friends have stopped parroting this nu-clear flashpoint rhetoric... all this points towards the pigs being nuke-nude or at best couple of trophy nukes...

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Oct 2014 06:26

Ivanev wrote:
nik wrote:We have pushed Paki snakes back in to their sh*t holes, but these scheming bas*ards are going to be back for sure. Expect a year at the most before they try to bite us again.

Are we going to finally equip BSF with Dhanush + Desi weapons locating radars + Nishant and LCA? All of prior weapons are considered below 'royalty' grade while BSF will be more than happy to get their hands on these.
How can BSF operate LCAs? They already operate Nishanth I think.

CRPF ordered Nishant, not BSF.

partha · Post by **partha** » 14 Oct 2014 07:15

Anujan wrote:Let's keep this in mind. We wiped out northern flight infantry during Kargil and shelled their artillery positions across the border. One single raid at Munto Dhalo by itself dispatched dozens of officers and over 300 dispatched in five minutes. That didn't escalate to nuke attacks. We have a margin that stretches all the way up to the intensity of kargil action.

Exactly. Nukes come into picture very late in the game. Nukes are really the end game. Even Dear Leader's NoKo which is way more irrational and unpredictable compared to Pakistan is all talk, no action regarding nuclear threats. So we should not hesitate to escalate and hurt Pakis if they hurt us. As Shri Defence Minister said, make the cost unaffordable to Pakistan. I'm looking forward to surgical strikes across LoC to destroy terror camps as predicted by Motorma Fair.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Oct 2014 08:47

Rahul Mehta
Some rag called Karachi POST wrote Indian response was 12 times their shelling Yes only mortars and machine guns used.And mostly BSF.
Fact noted by many observers.

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Oct 2014 09:15

Guys - think of the message going across to the world and to their own country: the great Pakistan army whose each soldier is equivalent to 10 of Indian army soldiers, responds to BSF's firing (not even the IA) with nukes ?

What would it to do their image ?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Oct 2014 09:22

SSharma wrote:
saurabh.mhapsekar wrote: I highly doubt this as a reason. If we use artillery to target Lahore, they will probably respond with nukes. They don't have a defined threshold. We should not assume them to portray the kind of restraint shown by other countries.
in that case, it would be smart of us to nuke them first if they start heavy artillery fire

we have no first use policy

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 14 Oct 2014 09:27

krishnan wrote:we have no first use policy

Against Non-nuclear weapon states only..which Pakis keep screaming hoarsely that they are not..

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Oct 2014 09:28

Veteran defence journo r. Prasanans take:

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... c.facebook

As THE WEEK reported four weeks ago, the current squabble started after Modi asked the UNMOGIP to pack up and go. Not after Modi cancelled the foreign secretaries' talks over envoy Abdul Basit's tea-chat with Hurriyat leaders.

For those who missed the issue, the UN Military Observers' Group in India and Pakistan was set up in 1948 to check ceasefire violations. Indira Gandhi withdrew recognition to it in 1972 after she and Bhutto agreed at Shimla to sort out all quarrels bilaterally. Bhutto, sly fox, went back on his word. He continued to recognise UNMOGIP.

We continued to give office space and visas, but never went whining to UNMOGIP over ceasefire breaches. We would instead fire back. Last month, Modi asked UNMOGIP to get lost. With it went Pakistan's last straw that linked the UN to Kashmir.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Oct 2014 09:39

All of you are wrong. One Paki Marshal Islamic Mortor round is equal to 10 India Bania rounds. So there is no excessive response by India. NM is weak only

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 14 Oct 2014 09:49

The government has asked UNMOGIP to vacate their Delhi offices..cannot seem to find a link if they have done so yet.

The only bit that I found was this

Major Nicolas Diaz, in charge of the Delhi office said [that] the observers group would continue to operate in line with the U.N. mandate and that it was looking at alternative accommodation.

It seems they plan to continue to stay here.

Can GOI not ask them to leave the country?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Oct 2014 09:55

Pakis want UNMOGIP to assess damage done by India

srin · Post by **srin** » 14 Oct 2014 10:18

Two words to describe this: Dehati Aurat

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 14 Oct 2014 10:37

The oh-so-crazy bakis are already showing their rationality and wisdom on the border after Indian onslaught. I doubt they have guts to resort to full blown war even if we do a controlled strike on slum-abad. In case of war they will be more worried about saving their nukes (IF they really have them) ending up in Indian hands. Let alone using them. Remember, even massa would want to get rid of their nukes in that case.