Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 15 Oct 2014 00:09

Few quick points.

Q: What did the Obama administration announce would be the key strategic goal of US military power projection, following the "winding down" of Eyeraq and Afghanistan wars?

A: The "Pivot To Asia".

Q: Which power stood to lose the most from the US successfully installing said "Pivot To Asia"?

A: Peopres Lepubric of China.

Q: What happened to the "Pivot to Asia"?

A: It got sawed in half and planted in West Asia (ISIS land) and Eastern Europe (Ukraine). As long as the US has to be ready for power projection in these theatres, no Pivot to Asia in the Pacific region is ever going to happen. Japan, Taiwan, Philippines are on their own.

Q: Which country has the most to gain from the absence of a Pivot to Asia? (Why Obama telegraphed the "Pivot to Asia" strategy many years ahead of its intended implementation is itself a good question; it was about as moronic as his loud public announcement of a "draw-down date" from Afghanistan.)
Q: Which country gains not only strategic advantage but also international superpower status by compelling the US to contest it, not in its near abroad sphere of influence but in proxy war theatres far away from its home coast?
Q: Which country is sitting on colossal heaps of $$$, and has both the financial muscle AND the level of institutional access needed to buy leverage in virtually any government... even (as amply seen before) the GOTUS?

A: _______ (same for all three of the above questions).

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 15 Oct 2014 01:14

FWIW: Nothing to confirm or deny the veracity

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/20 ... -services/

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 15 Oct 2014 01:32

Turkey, meanwhile, is the pakistan of Europe. Mirror image of Bakistan w.r.t. India.

1) Both represent themselves in international circles with Ingliss spikking suited-booted RAPE types who are rabid Islamists under the Armani wearing, single-malt-swilling personas. Both have two-faced “civilian politicians” who likewise pretend to be modern, reasonable leaders but are in fact frothing ghazis.

2) Both harbor grandiose delusions about having inherited the legacy of bissful, world-conquering, kufr-killing empires. The strategic design of both nations is to achieve Caliphate supremacy by empowering ghazi Islamist ideology with the tools of modern technology and the efficiency of modern systems.

3) Both are states where the army as an institution has (a) a lot of political power; (b) a superficial appearance of "modern, secular western outlook" bequeathed by the loins of Western military tradition that supposedly spawned them; (c) a deep-seated commitment to rancid Jihadi bigotry within.

4) Both have pathological complexes of feeling simultaneously superior and inferior to their neighbours. The Turks want desperately to be recognized as legitimately European, admitted into the EU, etc... but still consider themselves culturally superior to EU, and see themselves as descendants of the bissful conquerors of much of kufr Europe. Exactly the same sentiment as Bakis with respect to "South Asia" (a word they invented because they can't even bear to acknowledge that it is India they want acceptance from).

5) Both are key "al-lies" of the West against "terrorism"... Turkey a NATO al-lie, Bakistan a major non-NATO al-lie. Both have enlisted in the "war on terror" as a means to fulfilling their own pro-Islamist and pro-terrorist agendas. Bakistan gives safe haven to Taliban and Al Qaeda, Turkey winks at the oil-supply lifelines which are critical to the survival and enrichment of ISIS.

6) Both use their double-dealing "war on terror" roles as an opportunity to demand that their own interests be served at the expense of everyone else's. Turkey will not fight ISIS or Al-Nusra in Syria unless US also agrees to regime-change Assad. Pakistan will not do anything about the Taliban unless the US gives them Cashmere.

7) Both use their al-lie status as an excuse to perpetrate horrific war crimes against disenfranchised peoples whom they control only by imperial brute force. The Bakistanis can commit genocide in Baluchistan, the Turks in Kurdistan, without fear of international censure because they are key anti-terror al-lies.

8 ) Both Turkey and Bakistan have their economies fed and their military machines nurtured by US largesse. Meanwhile. the groups who REALLY did the fighting on the US' behalf while the Turkish and Baki armies sat on their asses are the ones who are left out in the cold, having received none of what they were promised. No homeland, no civilized nation to call their own, no resources, no protection. I refer to the Kurds in Iraq, and to the original anti-Soviet mujahedin resistance (Ahmad Shah Massood, Sibghatullah Mojadeddi, Burhanuddin Rabbani) in Afghanistan.

In each case, the fat-cat "al-lies" were given carte blanche by the US to undermine and destroy these groups who had done the real fighting. The Bakis did so via the Taliban. Currently, the Turks are doing so via ISIS.

Hence, Turkey is the Bakistan of Europe. Q.E.D.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 15 Oct 2014 01:50

Rudradev well said.

Reminds me of the Blunt project as the gurus put it. Turkey and TSP being the two poles...

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 15 Oct 2014 02:34

Rudradev, good post on Turkey-Bakistan similarity. Apologists for jihad are usually full of praise for Turkey as an exemplar of a "modern secular" muslim state (never mind Erdogon's Islamist ambitions); your summary is good for debunking it.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 15 Oct 2014 02:54

Turkey is encouraging ISIS to go massacre the Kurds. Kurds as you know have been strengthened in Iraq and in Syria and the Kurdish workers party, PKK has been causing much takleef to Turkey.

This is a Pakistan redux of using Taliban against the Baloch.

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 15 Oct 2014 03:41

We also a need a post of ISI-Indian media connections, same with politicians connected to ISI.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Oct 2014 06:38

These worms make Hitler and his gang look civilized, so it is very difficult to stay calm and analyze them.

But.. maybe some good can be done by carefully analysing and thus exposing the real nature of this. The so-called 'Al Qaeda' based its popularity on its pan-Islam appeal: Bin Laden's gang tried to treat all Islamic Jehadis the same regardless of sect, color, language and national origin. The Taliban were not like that they were anti-Shia, they committed genocide against the Hazaras etc. But the "foreign fighter" of Bin Laden were a cohesive unit because fundoo Islooness was their common thread.

The ISIS has torn that Islamic unity to pieces. This is clearly Sunnis vs. The Rest. This really surprises me. Does KSA really want to go down this road? Are they going to ban Shias from going to Mecca? If not, how many soosai bums can they expect along the way? Do they want millions of loony, desperate Eyeranian and Balochi shias swearing out Fatwas against the Sheikhs?

How are relations between Turkey and KSA?

I am waiting to hear about the first Refinery Takeover inside KSA.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 15 Oct 2014 08:13

UB
I dont know if you recall, but Al Keeda was not really "Islamic Secular". In 1988 Shias of Gilgit wanted some Azadi for themselves. So Zia sent "Phreedom phyters" led by one Mr Bin Laden and he is reputed to have massacred upto 700 Shias. This is from SATP

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publicati ... ticle4.htm

Since the initial clashes ended with a truce between local community leaders, the Shias were unprepared for the attack. According to unofficial reports, about 700 Shias were killed.18 It is also pointed that Osama bin Laden had led the Wahabi Pashtuns.

and this is from Late B Raman

http://www.outlookindia.com/article/The ... ger/221654

Faced with a revolt by the Shias of the Northern Areas (Gilgit and Baltistan) of Jammu & Kashmir (J&K), under occupation by the Pakistan Army, for a separate Shia State called the Karakoram State, the Pakistan Army transported Osama bin Laden's tribal hordes into Gilgit and let them loose on the Shias. They went around massacring hundreds of Shias -- innocent men, women and children.

Ofcourse if there are "phreedom phyters" can TFTAs be far behind giving them "Moral, political, diplomatic support"? . So Zia sent a SSG group too. Let by one Brigadier Pervez Musharraf. All this in 1988.

You can also read it here, it was written by B Raman in 2001 (a month before 9/11)

http://acsa.net/isi/index.html

When the Shias of Gilgit rose in revolt in 1988, Musharraf used bin Laden and his tribal hordes from the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) and the Federally-Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) to suppress them brutally. When the Mohajir Qaumi Movement (MQM---now called the Muttahida Qaumi Movement) of Altaf Hussain rose in revolt in the late 1980s in Karachi, Hyderabad and Sukkur in Sindh, the ISI armed sections of the Sindhi nationalist elements to kill the Mohajirs. It then created a split between Mohajirs of Uttar Pradesh origin (in Altaf Hussain's MQM) and those of Bihar origin in the splinter anti-Altaf Hussain group called MQM (Haquiqi--meaning real). In Altaf Hussain's MQM itself, the ISI unsuccessfully tried to create a wedge between the Sunni and Shia migrants from Uttar Pradesh.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 15 Oct 2014 13:19

Currently, KSA and Turkey are on opposite ends. Qatar & Turkey vs KSA, UAE, Bahrain, Jordan etc.

Why? KSA, Turkey etc support MB while the rest look at it as a way of threating the current status quo and thereby as a threat to the current autocratic regimes.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Oct 2014 20:47

Here is the other congnitive dissonance: the ISIS having 'local support and sympathy'. OK, in the Sunni areas, but Iraq is MAJORITY SHIA, hain?How can ISIS acquire local 'sympathy' (supplies by looting, yes, but sympathy?)

Why isn't Iraqi Army just concentrating on defending Shia and other non-Sunni polulation centers first, and then on counter-attacking in the Sunni areas?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Oct 2014 21:04

Anujan wrote:UB
I dont know if you recall, but Al Keeda was not really "Islamic Secular". In 1988 Shias of Gilgit wanted some Azadi for themselves. So Zia sent "Phreedom phyters" led by one Mr Bin Laden and he is reputed to have massacred upto 700 Shias. This is from SATP
********

True, good point, BUT, 1988 is pre-1991. That was the big turnaround of OBL; the sight of haraam dejenerate kuffar wimmens defiling the Pure streets of Riyadh and Jeddah and shocking the worms that looked up, by walking around in broad daylight, showing their ankles (and much else) - and being quite out of reach of any proper Islamic educational action such as stoning because they carried M-16s. Absolutely U-turn time, and OBL decided to devote his gentle life to greater causes.

Then by 1992 the Pakiban had taken over Kabul and subjected its population to the gentle Houristani caresses of Pure Islam (remember the DAWA website with the basket of severed hands?) And all those half-time festivities at the Kabul soccer stadium where they executed wimmens to wild applause?

The Eye-Ess-Eye had no use for the Americans after that. So they invited OBL to their major events. The major turn was his famous "It is The Duty of All Muslims to Kill Americans and Jews" Fatwa speech at the Lashkar-e-Toiba Annual Global IT Convention and Circusat Muridke, niyar LaHore. For this holy purpose, as with fighting the Soviets, they were willing to accommodate pests from all shades of Islam and all parts of the world, no discrimination.

The proper AQ type organization only came into effect after 1990. Before that it was all Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, and OBL was getting his practice on the wimmens Shias and goats in Gilgit. The other thing may be that the combat veterans who returned from A'Stan after the Soviet withdrawal, were from all sorts of places, and these were the only ppl OBL trusted. If u were OBL, would U trust the Eye Ess Eye or their poppas the See Ayy Yeahs?

Just as Abdul bin Lincoln's speech at Dera Gettys Khan started with "Four Score and Seven Saal Pehle", Sheikh OBL's FAtwa started with "Just Over Seven Saal Pehle".

It is surely a Fatwa that every AK-wielding and soosai-vest-wearing Abdul must learn in the madarssas, so I shall post in full the kuffar Angreji translation:

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement

23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with my mijjile between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear (and it is long!) and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people (by having haraam wimmens DRIVE and walk around showing their ankles!!), terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors and buggering their friends the Pakistani Generals as if they were goats.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets (P.S. he forgot Syria, Tunisia and Libya) and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."

Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Oct 2014 02:35

So ISIS is simply carrying out OBL's fartwa which in turn wraps itself in Koranic bladderdash.
Its all from the book.

Are the ISIS just revamped Kharjites? The ones who killed Ali.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Oct 2014 06:15

Good point, ramana. One way of looking at it is that ISIS is trying to get a second chance. The Taliban, with its Paki netaship, lined up its forces on the Shomali Plain, and the recruits sold their family jewels to pay for the AK-47 and the trip up there in trucks...

All got pulverized by American F-18s and F-16s and B-52s. Those that returned, deafened, shell-shocked, were "debriefed" by the Faithful in the Khyber and Bolan passes. The rest who surrendered were taken out into the deserts in the Dostum Container Express and "ventilated" with machine guns.

This time, notice, they are doing it 'right'. All Toyota pickups/SUVs, spread out over the landscape. The simple calculation is depressing: each JDAM costs 3 times the cost of a Toyota, without counting the cost of the missions. How is the US going to take out the hordes?

At the same time, their PR outfits are making SURE that the images they convey are tuned to excite the greatest rage in the West, esp. American living rooms. You have to ask why they are doing this. I am beginning to see that the intent is precisely to force the American hand. Even Hitler did not ADVERTISE what his forces were doing to the Jews, Gypsies etc. Why is ISIS being so blatant in advertising brutality against innocents?

American ground troops caught in an Islamic desert and villages - the dream of the Taliban and OBL. Now on the point of being realized.

Once they can get a hurriedly-prepared, vastly outnumbered bunch of American boys on the ground, it is Vietnam all over again: the night belongs to the ISIS. What is American going to defend? Syria? Shia villages? Baghdad? Fallujah? Kurdistan? This, it appears, is the strategy of ISIS: they are attacking all over the place. No identifiable mass force, just sh1ts with AK-47s and RPGs behind rocks and inside buildings.

Already Americans seem pretty reluctant to use Apache attack helicopters, because the ISIS has MANPADS and RPGs. Like Mogadishi, 'Blackhawk down'. If a few are downed, it will get much worse, and it looks like US commanders are clearly warned of the political fallout, and have one hand tied behind the back by a clueless WHOTUS-COTUS.

Recipe for Vietnam-2. Just like OBL wanted.

But the question remains: who is behind ISIS? If I can see the plot, so can the aces in the See Aiyyeh and NSA, hain?

The consistent, historic, bi-Partisan American Administration failure to target the real Paki/Saudi/Gelf/Oiro-Levant entities behind OBL, Taliban, Somalia and 9/11, is finally coming to bite America.

Why don't they rush, at least now, to "take out" / "terminate with extreme prejudice" those responsible for ISIS? "Rendition" a ton of them into Guano Bay? Wipe out their oil wealth? Take over any Gelf Sultanate found helping ISIS? Threaten flat-out to nuke Riyadh/Mecca, maybe do a demo at least?

Instead the Administration seems to be tied up with their own limp mijjiles. "Inherent Resolve" indeed!

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 16 Oct 2014 06:33

But the question remains: who is behind ISIS? If I can see the plot, so can the aces in the See Aiyyeh and NSA, hain? Why don't they rush to "take out" / "terminate with extreme prejudice" those responsible for ISIS? "Rendition" a ton of them into Guano Bay? Take over any Gelf Sultanate found helping ISIS?

Political compulsion UB. Everyone knows where 11 of the 14 hijackers came from. Everyone knows where OBL and Mullah Omar are/were hiding and where Bad Haqqani & sons go for some R&R. Why wasnt anything done about them? Just like how Eyeran learned from NoKo that having Nukes protects from invasion, Saudi and Turkey have learned from Pakistan that becoming an Al-lie gives a free pass for training terrorists for political purposes, even if they kill Americans. People outraging by the British journalist who was beheaded probably have a very short memory that they forgot Daniel Pearl who was beheaded in the same fashion. A few people complained. Then it was back to normal, because Pakistan was "front line al-lie against terror". Just like how Saudi money & Paki army and Afghan canon fodder joined to force the Godless communists out of Afghanistan, I suspect Saudi money & Turkish army and Syrian canon fodder have joined forces to massacre the Shias and Kurds. Recall that Pakistan had takleef with Afghanistan vis-a-vis the Durrand line. Turkey has takleef with the Kurds vis-a-vis Kurdistan and Saudis have takleef with Shias. Syria & Eyeraq are the new Afghanistan.

Already turkey has conducted airstrikes on .... wait for it .... kurds!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/mid ... story.html

Turkish warplanes hit Kurdish rebels, complicating fight against Islamic State

And Erdogan has gone "RAW, CIA & Mossad" just like the Pakis

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -isis.html

Turkish President Declares Lawrence of Arabia a Bigger Enemy than ISIS
In a stunning speech, Erdogan railed against Western “spies” and journalists and seemed to endorse the ISIS plan to redraw the region’s borders.

I predict 2 things
1. Eyeran will get into the fray, make a Shia terror organization. Probably blow up a few in Saudi. Eyeran will also be very reluctant to give up Nukes.
2. Saudis will overtly get Nukes. Maybe even ask Pakis to test one for them. Good for us, we can iron out any kinks with the TN maal we have.
3. US will acknowledge all ISIS bigwigs go to Turkey for some R&R but will sign a Kerry-Lugar bill to give Turkey some money because they are an Al-lie

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Oct 2014 06:38

Wonder what they are feeding the aces who decide foreign policy in DupleeCity. So as recently as a week back, BO was said to be "waiting" and 'urging' his Al-Lie Turkey to send ground troops and tanks and planes to the war. Well... he sure knows how to identify friend from foe, doesn't he?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 16 Oct 2014 06:51

I think Turkey and Saudis have learned well from Pakistan.

Pakistan was the first to say a big F-You to US, train terrorists for their territorial ambitions, even if that meant the terrorists kill Americans and scorch the earth as an uninhabitable sh1thole of pious & pure Houristan. No other country had tied down Massa with such lack of options (Vietnam is not an example, they fought Massa and died. Pakis fought Massa and got aid and arms from Massa). Pakis have used 3 things

1. Knowledge of territory & intelligence agents to know who to kill and what to capture to destabilize the region close to their border. Look at the skill with which they bumped off politicians and tribal elders in Afghan areas so that the only power left is the local taliban 'commander'
2. Have just about enough deterrence against Massa. This is by having nukes, threatening to become a failed state, threatening to stop supply chain
3. Make common cause with some other benefactor, Saudis to get money. Indulge in some Heroin trade to fund the insurgency. In case of turkey/ISIS, Oil is the Heroin.

I am sure the Al Baghdadi fella is relaxing in some multi storeyed villa near Turkey's Defence Academy. Ofcourse nobody in Turkey knows about this and they didnt help him at all.

Turkey is surprisingly going down the same path. Massa couldnt do sh1t against Pakis, they wont be able to do anything against the Turkey & Saudis. I think Eyeran/Eyeraq should learn from Afghanistan. Afghans learned to bribe & recruit some of the Yahoos and motivate them to establish a caliphate in all of Pakistan too. I am sure ISIS can be bribed to motivate them to take over Mecca (whats a caliphate that doesnt control Mecca hain ji?) and to take over the historic lands in Turkey which belonged to the glorious Caliphs.

Turkey banega Pakistan.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Oct 2014 07:03

This looks like the entire US setup in the MidEast is about to go up in flames. Once the rescue helicopters have taken off from the Baghdad Green Zone and those remaining have been beheaded, crucified or sold into slavery, ISIS controls all of Iraq, most of Syria and Turkey. The Gelf States will be bissing in their sheets - but will soon be taken over too, expelling the westerners. Sudan, Somalia, Tunisia, all will follow suit, maybe Algeria will too. Jordan is sending plenty of recruits to ISIS, I think Jordan will fall very soon.

I can't see why the ISIS lost Egypt.

And through all this, due to Israeli and DupleeCity pig-headedness, the US is failing to enlist the help of Iran, the one power that can help roll back the entire ISIS/KSA/Turkey combine.

Wonder how well the Israelis will love having ISIS on their doorstep. They better mass-produce Drones and Hellfires, to have any hope.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 16 Oct 2014 07:24

The problem with Eyeran is that they arent much better either. I read some Piskology book whose name I forget, about how the Eyeranian Ayatollahs think. They view themselves through the Persian lens and are an expansionist power. They have this huge persecution complex (dating back to Ali) of how the world has conspired to cut them to size and deny one united Eyeran from the Indus till the Red sea. They act that way too. All with the population of Tamil Nadu! While Tamil Nadu is mourning that Amma is in Jail and doing tearful swear ins and drowning the sorrow with white-saree-jiggling-thighs-songs on TV, Eyeran funds Hezbollah (when their economy is down the pakistan, somehow they find time, energy and money to fund and maintain pretty much a huge paramilitary abroad). They tied up with Syria to bump off a few like Rafiq Hariri. Heck, they even sent a few of their agents to bomb an Israeli diplomat's car in Desh!

Think about it from Eyeran's eyes. Millenia old civilization tied up in knots by a camel rider who seduced a man from birtannia, overthrew the ottomans, conquered the Arabian peninsula and signed a peace treaty with Massa. Pretty much the Sunni-western nexus has defeated the Persian empire.

Now one has to think carefully what is better? Shia hordes who finally reclaim their oil rich lands from the Saudi monarchs, take half of Eyeraq, all of Syria, fund the Kurds to give major Takleef to turkey?

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 16 Oct 2014 11:22

It is a given that Iran wont be much better. They are malsi too. Nevertheless at this time it makes sense for the global policeman to join hands with the other malsi in town to counter the more threatening malsi.
What other choice do the super martial strategic geniuses of America have.
BTW where is TSJones ?

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 16 Oct 2014 16:42

though Iraq is majority shia, its a segmented state. It has neighborhoods and its pretty much ghettoized. So there are regions and areas which are Sunni, Shia and Kurd dominated. IS overruns and dominates the Sunni regions and gains support from the local warlords / tribal leaders while it doesn't get much of support in the Shia regions and so on. If it hits a Kurdish region, it gets into a fight and peshmerga tries to defend.

So, in so far as that aspect is concerned, a sympathy is surely possible too because there are enough disaffected Sunni pop in Iraq who feel cheated by the Iraqi central govt. [However, a lot of the tribal leaders also got shocked when they saw the true colors of IS?]

I do think US is discreetly moving hands in glove with Iran on a few things and moving away from Iran on a few things. Suleimani is getting an image makeover and the Shia militias are doing their bit in Iraq and Syria. I wonder why he stepped down as Quds commander a few wks back though?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Oct 2014 16:47

stepped down as Quds commander

Whiyar do u find such news that does not make the headlines even on UBNC?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Oct 2014 19:16

A request. If anyone has access to mind map software please draw up a ISIS mind map based on the info in this thread and post so it can be used as handy reference guide. Thanks, all this should not go to waste.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 16 Oct 2014 19:29

ramana wrote: Are the ISIS just revamped Kharjites? The ones who killed Ali.

I suspected since Gaddafi's fall that 'Arab Spring' is just a Ummayad-Ottoman hybrid which has successfully pre-empted/held at bay a Rashidun-Fatimid redux in the region.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Oct 2014 20:14

Klaus, Decoder need for the common people to understand. I got it. Please translate for others.
Ummayad_Ottoman hybrid is old time Kharjite Sunni Islam.
Rashidun-Fatimid hybrid is reformist Islam!

So what you are saying is after the Arab Nationalists of Gaddafi genre fell, the U-O took over and prevented the R_F nexus from progress.

IOW Arab Spring is a revisionist movement and not the progress movement its made out to be in US.

is this last hurrah of the revisionists before the flame goes out?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Oct 2014 20:44

RSoami wrote:It is a given that Iran wont be much better. They are malsi too. Nevertheless at this time it makes sense for the global policeman to join hands with the other malsi in town to counter the more threatening malsi.

Now Imagine the stupid Chinese get real brain, settle with India and both send Million Peacemakers right in the Muddle camping on the bank of Eupharates and enjoying the Euroasian Sangam view from Kurdish Mountain. This could, would have been the opportunity to bring real humane Civilization in the area for first time.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 16 Oct 2014 21:24

Ramana ji, exactly. Usurpers posing as revisionists. Remnants of R-F are the Alawites and Lebanon now, not Iran as is commonly believed.

Objective critics would not even title Sher Shah's decade old rule in India as a Caliphate, so if the same yardstick is applied here then we could have a whole new set of players by beginning of 2016!

This is going to come apart at the seams with a bitter spat and a lot of public washing of dirty linen between KSA and Turkey. Qatar is increasingly geographically isolated with its immediate neighbors choosing to drift further away. A heavy-weight like Egypt has become a millstone around the neck of the gulf states and this pain will only increase. This cannot be sustained as ME is fading demographically as well, they'll start dusting off the well-worn Khorasan files sooner than later. There is even a possibility of a North-South Islamic State split, if they do not get direct coastal access soon enough.

When it comes to Turkey, the Euro-continentals are going to get dressed for battle real fast, lets wait for the awareness to spread within the old-continent.

Turkey has gamed this since 2011 and dictated both the pace and location of the "Arab" Spring (nothing Arab about it below the surface) in order to snatch the initiative of Islam away from the Arabs. They are going to lose their major tacit trans-continental partners- the PRC, the Hans will rally behind Iran if the Persians prove themselves here. The Shias can always use the oil-droplet strategy to rebound in the Arabian peninsula, we are going to see some surreal partnerships, Iran-Kuwait come to mind!

Oman wants no part of this fiasco, could be a conduit for intelligence gathering if India wishes though.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Oct 2014 21:30

Note the KSA sentencing the Shia cleric in Eastern KSA i.e. oil lands Nejad province!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Oct 2014 22:07

Turkey Pulling the strings behind ISIS with Paki joining them all Gung ho, Chinese must be scratching their noses thinking how big a moral boost Uighers will get after Caliphate is established by their Toorkashi Cousins.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Oct 2014 22:36

Same with Comrade Putin flexing his mijjile thinking about Chechens. Not 2 menshun desi equivalents. The Toyota 4x4 w/ machinegun and RPG may be the next soosai-vest?

This is the thing that keeps bothering me: how did 50+ (or many more?) desis get recruited, who is it that they contacted to volunteer, who arranged payment, where did they fly / swim to, who received them? And why were they allowed to return alive (i.e., from there) knowing that they would be put through the wringer? Were they captured? Did they get tired of being used as goats, run away and surrender?

These days the airports don't let ppl out without pretty definite documentation in addition to passport, hain? What was presented to get them out? Guvrmand is pretty silent on this. Why?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 17 Oct 2014 09:22

ramana wrote:Note the KSA sentencing the Shia cleric in Eastern KSA i.e. oil lands Nejad province!

Came to know from local peoples returning from Hejaz: not just the eastern peninsula areas, even the natives of Hejaz were always restive since 1930s and the current rulers had issues that are under reported. I had asked if there are any blog writeups on this, but peoples are worried about their necks.

No wonder the rulers hold on to Pentagon's heels so tightly.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Oct 2014 09:39

Hejaz is not Ibn Saud territory. Its Hashemite area. Hence restive.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 17 Oct 2014 10:13

UlanBatori wrote:Same with Comrade Putin flexing his mijjile thinking about Chechens. Not 2 menshun desi equivalents. The Toyota 4x4 w/ machinegun and RPG may be the next soosai-vest?

This is the thing that keeps bothering me: how did 50+ (or many more?) desis get recruited, who is it that they contacted to volunteer, who arranged payment, where did they fly / swim to, who received them? And why were they allowed to return alive (i.e., from there) knowing that they would be put through the wringer? Were they captured? Did they get tired of being used as goats, run away and surrender?

These days the airports don't let ppl out without pretty definite documentation in addition to passport, hain? What was presented to get them out? Guvrmand is pretty silent on this. Why?

UB,

You would be surprised that most of the people who get 'recruited' are pretty normal chaps - workers, supervisors, etc. And to meet the right people, they just have to let their local madrassa mullah know about their interest. This mullah would know somebody, who would know somebody....

Regarding documentation, these guys generally go to a 'safe' country like Dubai/UAE. After that they are transported to hotspots via terrorist channels, and they don't need any documentation. These guys can return to India because papers show that they went to Dubai for 1 year.

Regarding why they are allowed to return - it is like a tour of duty for these guys. They go to Syria, fight for 1 year, get paid an ok to nice salary (yes, that's right), and return home with gifts for their family.

Terrorism is a business.

Kamboja · Post by **Kamboja** » 17 Oct 2014 10:40

UBji, regarding Shia majority in Iraq -- as was pointed out above, while it is true that it's ~65% Shia, that number obscures the reality, which is that the more densely populated south-east (adjacent to Iran) is heavily Shia, while the sparsely populated north-west is majority Sunni. This latter area, not coincidentally, overlaps with the areas that ISIS has a presence/control.

Some maps that illustrate this clearly:
Ethnic groups in Iraq

Areas of ISIS control

Kamboja · Post by **Kamboja** » 17 Oct 2014 10:45

And a bit of historical context: this area has always been the battleground between Persia and the Anatolian power -- the Ottomans and before them the Eastern Romans.

The Shia Safavids (who were responsible for converting Persia from majority-Sunni to majority-Shia) lost Mesopotamia to the Sunni Ottomans around 1600. Notice the fault-lines are close to the religious distribution today:

Even further back, the Zoroastrian Sassanids were fighting the early Christian Romans over the same territory.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 17 Oct 2014 11:51

UlanBatori wrote:
stepped down as Quds commander
Whiyar do u find such news that does not make the headlines even on UBNC?

Well, first things first: whats UBNC?

I keep tracking that guy from time to time to get insights on iran, its moves on Syria, Iraq etc. His wiki page says he stepped down and Hossein Hamdani has taken over. Besides, if Wiki did a mistake, ideally the page will have been edited by now, surely? [its been having this info for about 3 wks atleast, I think]

I still wonder why that happened, though.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 Oct 2014 14:17

Let me guess (out of turn) UBNC -> Ulan Bator News Corp.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Oct 2014 08:14

C stands for Conspirajy onlee. Wiki page, hain?

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 18 Oct 2014 09:08

Ah, I thought it was UB News Corporation (also thought of network channel / connection?) when I asked the qn.

Yes, its all in the wiki onlee. Looks like QS has taken a more hands on approach to the Iraq / Syria problem. And he has gotten an image makeover through Iran too.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Oct 2014 19:29

Kamboja thanks for the maps and historical context.