Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Oct 2014 21:28

prataparudra wrote:Watched the video of Dr. Saraswat presentation. A few thoughts of my own. With research experience in US universities, I can say that some of the technologies that DRDO is aiming to achieve, would require a lot of investment in research tools, personnel etc, that Its hard for me to believe that they would be realized in any time soon.

Each of the bullet points in his presentation, be it Structures, materials, engines, guidance&navigation would require a lot of people with advanced degree and interest in these fields and years and years of research, and still they have to be lucky.

It almost feels like DRDO short lists all the cutting edge tech,science (typically borrowed from overseas) and then throws people and money at it , and see if they can figure it out. The advantage of this approach is that you are really not working on any project that has no real end use, unlike west (US) where lot of research is done without immediate clear goals.
The disadvantages are many, first you are always playing catchup. Secondly, you only have few teams or people working at it, versus, west where multiple universities work on similar projects. Hence significant delay in figuring out stuff, if at all the Indian teams get lucky.

I sincerely hope , the government looks into attracting more Phds with higher stipends, NRI professors with exact pay package as in us and investment in research tools and BIG BIG investements for design iterations and prototype testing. Without this, a big portion of what Dr. Saraswat presented will remain a dream.

Yes, its hard no doubt but remember whatever we are being shown in that presentation is meant for a public audience. A lot of what has been mentioned has already been achieved or we are well on that path. For instance the points he raised viz nav systems, or the radars or the missile subsystems - in each, we are not starting from scratch and are fairly ahead already in terms of managing some critical systems eg BMs while other items (eg seekers are being worked on as priority). In short, while things are not ideal, its not that they are so behind that this is utopian either, most of the stuff in that presentation rounds out what we knew in bits and pieces of what they are on track towards or have demonstrated in some form or the other In short, in another decade, we will have a fairly robust local aerospace system able to churn out a wide variety of systems.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 20 Oct 2014 21:42

Austin wrote:Range with 1 T warhead with 50,000 Gross weight for Agni-5 would be in range of 10000-12000 Km ..Similar to Topol-M , which has similar throw up weight and range.

But Roosies probably use much better propellant.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2014 21:52

OT Alert:

prataparudra wrote:...I sincerely hope , the government looks into attracting more Phds with higher stipends, NRI professors with exact pay package as in us and investment in research tools and BIG BIG investements for design iterations and prototype testing. Without this, a big portion of what Dr. Saraswat presented will remain a dream.

higher stiphends, i agree
nri brofs - nope! why? otoh, did you hike the pay for satisfying NRIs?
i think NRIs should return and join at normal pay scale as with their local peers and spread their experience and leverage their expertise rather demand more money only because they are NRIs. /OT

what is important is India must charter to its needs. If it keeps khaan systems as inputs, there is nothing wrong with it.. heck why waste money on something that is already proven to be failure, unless something our lab boys have done it or can do it better or want to do it?

again, after a threshold point, nobody can copy khaan systems.. India would have moved sooooo forward to even think. that is the time you will wake up NRIs to think.. did they do the right job?
/OT

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Oct 2014 22:04

prataparudra wrote:Watched the video of Dr. Saraswat presentation. A few thoughts of my own. With research experience in US universities, I can say that some of the technologies that DRDO is aiming to achieve, would require a lot of investment in research tools, personnel etc, that Its hard for me to believe that they would be realized in any time soon.

Each of the bullet points in his presentation, be it Structures, materials, engines, guidance&navigation would require a lot of people with advanced degree and interest in these fields and years and years of research, and still they have to be lucky.

It almost feels like DRDO short lists all the cutting edge tech,science (typically borrowed from overseas) and then throws people and money at it , and see if they can figure it out. The advantage of this approach is that you are really not working on any project that has no real end use, unlike west (US) where lot of research is done without immediate clear goals.
The disadvantages are many, first you are always playing catchup. Secondly, you only have few teams or people working at it, versus, west where multiple universities work on similar projects. Hence significant delay in figuring out stuff, if at all the Indian teams get lucky.

I sincerely hope , the government looks into attracting more Phds with higher stipends, NRI professors with exact pay package as in us and investment in research tools and BIG BIG investements for design iterations and prototype testing. Without this, a big portion of what Dr. Saraswat presented will remain a dream.

A system, comparative to the US/West, is a desirable one, but *may not* be a practical one.

India has two problems: 1. to "catch-up" (with the latest-n-greatest) and 2. to simultaneously compete with outsiders to produce products for her internal users (Services). Both are about equally important, so, the question is how to support both at the same time, with limited funds. Not an easy answer.

Next, the US in specific, funds risk - multiple research, most of whom would "fail" (in the AF area they fund at least two players and one is selected, space they funded three and selected two, etc.). Then, again specifically in the US, there is a cultural aspect, "failure" (outside of sports) is not a big deal. This allows competing efforts to thrive - many a times the looser contributes in some way or is able to recoup via commercial deals. ???? India does not that much funds to be able to fund multiple sources and I am not too sure how "failures" would be treated/addressed.

Finally, it is not that India does not contribute. It is that her contributions are binary: either India or a foreign entity. As of now, it seems to be rare that an Indian entity does both, sell a product within India (Def services) and also export it. If there is a product that is needed by the Indian services, it will be a while before it gets exported - the demand is so great.

JMTs.

James B · Post by **James B** » 20 Oct 2014 23:51

Apparently these are the waypoints of recent Nirbhay test

Got it from another forum

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/stra ... post958871

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Oct 2014 01:26

That is rather wild!!! Tail end, if true, looks like a Ebola virus.

What would be neat is if it could be updated with threat information and provide it with the ability to select the path with the least threat.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Oct 2014 04:47

Are those loops and sharp u turns - almost about turns?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Oct 2014 05:15

Thakur_B, What is height of burst of A-1 in the youtube video shown a few pages back ? ~1.5km?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 21 Oct 2014 06:08

ramana wrote:Thakur_B, What is height of burst of A-1 in the youtube video shown a few pages back ? ~1.5km?

Can't find the said video Ramana. Can you post it again ?

John · Post by **John** » 21 Oct 2014 06:23

srai wrote: 3 x P-15A has enough room in the front section (between Brahmos and Barak-8) for a 8-cell Nirbhay VLS module. If more are required, one of the two 8-cell Brahmos VLS modules could be replaced with an additional Nirbhay module. The follow-on 4 x P-15B would have similar capacity.

The L&T VLS cells should be capable of firing Nirbhay it would require a plug to accommodate it similar to how Russian UVLS is capable of firing both Brahmos and Klub missiles.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Oct 2014 06:34

Gagan wrote:Are those loops and sharp u turns - almost about turns?

?>>

Around the same time, the turboprop engine kicked in and provided thrust to the missile which began cruising like an aircraft at a speed of Mach 0.7. Cruising at an altitude of 4.8 km, Nirbhay then performed a series of manoeuvres and navigated along 15 waypoints using a state-of-the-art inertial navigation system during its flight of one hour and 10 minutes.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 513461.ece

sounds like it did a lot terminal maneuvers! speaks volume about guidance/evasion techniques.

say, an SA-2 avoidance algorithm. / just kidding - mach levels are way too much for SAMs

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Oct 2014 07:26

kmkraoind wrote:I have some noob questions:
1. Is booster rocket of Nirbhay salvageable, at least some parts like rocket motors, fin controllers, etc.
2. What is sanitation zone (in meters, is 500 m enough?) for Nirbhay, i.e. where rocket booster fells?

1. No.
2. About 0.5-0.75 km.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 21 Oct 2014 07:40

There was news that an SRK company makes flexible seals for the rocket motor of Nirbhay, with an image (will search for it). This means the booster has TVC.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Oct 2014 20:17

Thakur_B wrote:
ramana wrote:Thakur_B, What is height of burst of A-1 in the youtube video shown a few pages back ? ~1.5km?
Can't find the said video Ramana. Can you post it again ?

Agni I launch video has the picture of the terminal stage (1:21 onwards) of the flight with fuze functioning.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Oct 2014 20:21

pankajs wrote:Pukes gave the remnants of the tomahawks to the Chinese and got the missile in return for their help.

OT
That is pure crapjust to disuade America from further strikes and fake bravado from Pakis who created a silver lining from violation sovereignity, just like Pakis got UAV technology from IAF UAV crash in 2002 and would build Isreali UAV's?

To add to this BS, Pakistan must be able to reverse engineer F-16's, M-109's, P-3C orion, Stinger, AMRAAM, AIM-9M, Harpoons at very cheap rates- why havent they??

Pakis are giving BS, the just imported Cj-10 missile exports from China.

The Chinese sold thier CM's which they developed with purchase of knowhow from Ukraine.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Oct 2014 20:44

PratikDas wrote:As the wing swivels from the stowed configuration to the deployed configuration, the top portion of the wing (Right wing) swings from front to back and the bottom portion of the wing (Left wing) swings from back to front.

PD, in one of the NDTV videos by Pallav Baghla, shot before the the 2013 tests, they demonstrated how the wing would spring out. one can hear a sharp clang when the two pieces snap OUT and become wings.

member_28442 · Post by **member_28442** » 21 Oct 2014 21:00

Dileep wrote:There was news that an SRK company makes flexible seals for the rocket motor of Nirbhay, with an image (will search for it). This means the booster has TVC.

SRK?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 21 Oct 2014 21:01

They rotate out (one side to th front and the other to the back to become the wings.So it is stored axially and rotates to become a horizontal wings.There seems to be a "flap" which folds shut and closes the slot thereafter probably to make it aerodynamically stable.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Oct 2014 22:35

He is ref to soc republik of Kerala

The company was most likely keltech now Brahmos owned
http://www.batl.co.in/index.php/site-map

kit · Post by **kit** » 21 Oct 2014 22:46

Does nirbhay has some sort of terrain matching/avoidance system ??

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 21 Oct 2014 22:59

NRao wrote:That is rather wild!!! Tail end, if true, looks like a Ebola virus.

What would be neat is if it could be updated with threat information and provide it with the ability to select the path with the least threat.

White lines are not way points, they are actually coastline.

Dark blue lines actually denote waypoints, where it went to sea, took a u turn and came back.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 21 Oct 2014 23:22

Rudra launching Helina from Tarmak

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 21 Oct 2014 23:37

prasannasimha wrote:
Rudra launching Helina from Tarmak

Doesn't look at all like HeliNa. The distinct plume of both motors firing together is missing.

Launching NAG ATGM from Rudra:-

High-speed Motion Capture of NAG ATGM Launched from HAL-Rudra at t=200ms

High-speed Motion Capture of NAG ATGM Launched from HAL-Rudra at t=220ms

High-speed Motion Capture of NAG ATGM Launched from HAL-Rudra at t=242.67ms

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Oct 2014 23:47

It could be. Dr. Saraswat did say that they are doing away with the separate nozzles for the booster and sustainer. They are going to have a blast tube for the booster, which would mean that plume would come out from the back.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Oct 2014 01:22

abhik wrote:Now we just have to produce 1000's of them and gift wrap them like this

I have been advocating a solution like this from Prahaar test days. It would be a mega Whammy if we can deploy Nirbhay and/or Shaurya in containers. A double whammy if these are secretly Exported to Shitistan and pre-sited by RAA agents in some remote warehouse in Baloochistan and activated when necessary.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Oct 2014 02:21

Sid wrote:
NRao wrote:That is rather wild!!! Tail end, if true, looks like a Ebola virus.

What would be neat is if it could be updated with threat information and provide it with the ability to select the path with the least threat.
White lines are not way points, they are actually coastline.

Dark blue lines actually denote waypoints, where it went to sea, took a u turn and came back.

Ouch. You are right. Thanks.

Those maneuvers, nonetheless, are impressive.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Oct 2014 07:17

Last time they fired Nirbhay over Wheeler Is on a track closely hugging the coast before it crashed inland near Jagatsinghpur, barely 20 miles from Bhubaneshwar. This time the waypoints show they fired it straight out to sea for about 50 miles before it turned south and flew to a point approx 50 miles off the coast of Vizag before turning back. Impressive indeed. Range covers horn of Africa, most of middle east, whole of China, SE Asia, Malacca and most of Indian Ocean from within Indian territory.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Oct 2014 07:22

indranilroy wrote:It could be. Dr. Saraswat did say that they are doing away with the separate nozzles for the booster and sustainer. They are going to have a blast tube for the booster, which would mean that plume would come out from the back.

When did this happen ?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Oct 2014 07:55

^^^ Watch the question-answer session of the Dr. Saraswat's talk at IITB.

I asked Tarmak007 about legitimacy of the pic and when it is from. He was understandably offended about the legitimacy question,

but he said the picture is from June 2014. He does get the credit for getting the first picture of Helina is this configuration. Three cheers to him. Jingo khush hua!

kit wrote:Does nirbhay has some sort of terrain matching/avoidance system ??

Of course, how else do you think it can fly a few hundreds of feet off the ground at such speeds.

morem · Post by **morem** » 22 Oct 2014 08:16

Victor wrote:Last time they fired Nirbhay over Wheeler Is on a track closely hugging the coast before it crashed inland near Jagatsinghpur, barely 20 miles from Bhubaneshwar. This time the waypoints show they fired it straight out to sea for about 50 miles before it turned south and flew to a point approx 50 miles off the coast of Vizag before turning back. Impressive indeed. Range covers horn of Africa, most of middle east, whole of China, SE Asia, Malacca and most of Indian Ocean from within Indian territory.

Whole of China

I thought max range was 1500 km

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 22 Oct 2014 09:07

SSharma wrote:
Dileep wrote:There was news that an SRK company makes flexible seals for the rocket motor of Nirbhay, with an image (will search for it). This means the booster has TVC.
SRK?

Socialist Republic of Kerala.

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 22 Oct 2014 09:14

morem wrote:
Victor wrote:Last time they fired Nirbhay over Wheeler Is on a track closely hugging the coast before it crashed inland near Jagatsinghpur, barely 20 miles from Bhubaneshwar. This time the waypoints show they fired it straight out to sea for about 50 miles before it turned south and flew to a point approx 50 miles off the coast of Vizag before turning back. Impressive indeed. Range covers horn of Africa, most of middle east, whole of China, SE Asia, Malacca and most of Indian Ocean from within Indian territory.

Whole of China
I thought max range was 1500 km

All these places are within 1500 km of India you phool!!!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Oct 2014 09:44

^^question is legitimate. Let Victor explain please. No need to be abusive towards a member, even with changed spelling and "meaning"...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Oct 2014 23:30

pankajs wrote:Pukes gave the remnants of the tomahawks to the Chinese and got the missile in return for their help.

Not just remnants, they had couple of un-exploded missiles which had impacted inside shitland. This was promptly commandeered and loaded onto a transporter (most likely Khan's Baksheesh C-130s) to PRC.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 22 Oct 2014 23:38

I doubt Barber has anything to do with tomahawk. Its most likely a reverse engineered ukranian Kh-55 that china managed to acquire.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Oct 2014 06:57

the same kh55 pool of technology fed into the china CJ-10 GLCM program which is now their premier CM. it is operated by the 2nd arty exclusively I think, which indicates a nuclear strike role as well as prime conventional LR targeting role.

John · Post by **John** » 23 Oct 2014 07:01

If it was reversed engineered TLAM it would range in excess of 2000 km right of the bat, there is reason why the baseline Babur had a range of just 500 km and they barely stretched able to increase it to 700 km.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Oct 2014 07:07

John wrote:If it was reversed engineered TLAM it would range in excess of 2000 km right of the bat, there is reason why the baseline Babur had a range of just 500 km and they barely stretched able to increase it to 700 km.

I'm guessing that the chemistry of the propellants and the materials used are difficult to copy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Oct 2014 10:03

it uses simple aviation fuel whether for turbojet or turbofan. so probably a turbojet than a fuel efficient turbofan. Cheen would have kept the better technologies for their own CJ10 family and passed on the bandar level tech as a product Babur to TSP. the base KH55 has a engine that entire drops down outside the body and ends up looking like a Kh59 in flight....to increase range they added saddle fuel tanks being air delivered only with no launch tube...high RCS due to exposed engine. Babur has a scoop air intake like the old model Thawks. Nirbhay has a recessed air intake like new model Thawks.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Oct 2014 10:56

morem wrote: Whole of China
I thought max range was 1500 km

Oops, my bad. Not used to quoting Km.

Range from Dibrugarh:
1,500 miles
1,500 km
Same exercise from J&K, extent of Indian waters off Bhuj, Cochin, Chennai & Port Blair is still pretty impressive.