LCA News and Discussions, 22-Oct-2013

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Oct 2014 19:30

Great Pics. Thank you. Hope the AC is made in big numbers soon.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Oct 2014 19:37

any idea when the derby tests will take place? Wasnt it supposed to be in Oct 14?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 24 Oct 2014 20:02

srai wrote:ADA - LCA Flight Test News

That page has monthly updates since May 2010.

I get this -privacy error- attackers might steal your credit cards passwords etc.

https://www.ada.gov.in/images/flighttestnewsMain.htm

koti · Post by **koti** » 24 Oct 2014 20:07

Is there a possibility that LCA-1 can be used as an AJT? Will it be able to get to the price point of Hawk if we strip it off enough?
Perhaps re-engine it with Kaveri in the future?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 24 Oct 2014 20:09

What is that little object on the ~~left~~ right intake. A white device thats attached to a round red base. It is there on almost all pictures.

Added later : Yes shiv ji it is on the right one. Thanks. Also in the following picture it does look like a camera. In which case I hope ADA releases some of that footage too.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 5149_o.jpg

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Oct 2014 20:50

ravi_g wrote:What is that little object on the left intake. A white device that is attached to a round red base. It is there on almost all pictures.

You mean under the right (starboard) intake? That is where the cannon twin muzzle is supposed to be. I wonder if they have installed some camera or something there.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Oct 2014 21:12

Please don't thank me. Credit goes to Rana and ADA.

koti wrote:Is there a possibility that LCA-1 can be used as an AJT? Will it be able to get to the price point of Hawk if we strip it off enough?
Perhaps re-engine it with Kaveri in the future?

The potential of LCA with the GE F-404 to be used as a light supersonic trainer has always existed and discussed. It will be a competitor to the South Korean T-50, both in price and capability. But IAF has never shown any interest in a supersonic LIFT. In fact, ADA did not even fly the trainer for over 3 years between Jan'2011 and March of this year. However, since then there has been renewed interest and the prototype (PV-5) has flown 28 more sorties.

I don't know what will happen of the trainer version. Probably it will only be used as a type conversion trainer.

But a yeh dil mange more.

LCA trainer with a Kaveri engine is a dream. I will distribute sweets on the street if it happens. But I don't think that they will be working on that engine for much longer (other than for AURA). They will migrate to the 115 kN engine soon.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Oct 2014 01:34

would love to see an ASM on board the pylons.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 25 Oct 2014 05:26

The first set of pics with 500lb LGB as it seems, but not with the sometimes reported twin launchers so far. Does anybody have further infos on them or when further weapon trials might happen?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Oct 2014 07:42

Sid wrote:Wow, so they have finally integrated LGBs with LCA.

What world have you been living in? LGBs were integrated eons ago.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Oct 2014 09:19

Any idea of the origins of the 500lb LGB being carried? The fins etc look rather huge, which might make it difficult to dual stack them.

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Oct 2014 11:03

Any idea of the origins of the 500lb LGB being carried? The fins etc look rather huge, which might make it difficult to dual stack them.

Those are 500KG (or 1000 lb) bombs kitted out with laser guidance. The receivers at the business end of these will have serious "takleef" like the Pakis at Kargil.

My guess, the existing kit (Paveway II/III) from IAF inventory.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 25 Oct 2014 12:06

abhik wrote:Any idea of the origins of the 500lb LGB being carried? The fins etc look rather huge, which might make it difficult to dual stack them.

As per the FB Page it is PB-500 Bombs

PB-500 - Hard-Target Penetration Bomb Origin : Israel

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Oct 2014 12:28

Kakarat wrote:
As per the FB Page it is PB-500 Bombs

PB-500 - Hard-Target Penetration Bomb Origin : Israel

PB-500 seems to be the iron bomb not the LGB Kit.

member_28640 · Post by **member_28640** » 25 Oct 2014 14:15

abhik wrote:PB-500 seems to be the iron bomb not the LGB Kit.

The brochure says that it is integrated with all existing guidance systems and is compatible with all aircrafts.. Looks to be a smart bunker buster

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 Oct 2014 15:19

^^ Looks like the Israeli Griffin guidance kit.

The Israeli bombs were specifically developed for Su-30MKI, MiG27 & MiG21 and probably MiG29K/UPG

Check the bomb here http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=66597 with the bomb here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... Dacca.html

Curiously, no Litening pod and the bombs are not marked, so looks like carriage trials flight. In Iron Fist 2013, Tejas did drop LGBs.

Each Tejas inner wing pylon can carry two unguided HSLD bombs like the Jaguar shown here http://lh3.ggpht.com/-qKtynYtR_6k/UbhdP ... t-2013.jpg

Though not two guided bombs.

Lot of Jaguar learnings were put to use for Tejas in those early days.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 Oct 2014 15:32

Off topic here, but found these not so usual pictures of Jaguar IM carrying HSLD bombs. Jaguar IM don't have laser rangefinders, so interesting whether they use conventional bombsights http://data1.ibtimes.co.in/en/full/3088 ... -image.jpg

Even more interesting is Jaguar IM carrying BL755 Cluster Bombs http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/i ... IAF_lg.jpg

and dropping them. The aircraft on the right is IM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/phot ... id=1301017

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755
http://en.valka.cz/files/bl-755_138.jpeg

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 25 Oct 2014 17:24

abhik wrote:
Any idea of the origins of the 500lb LGB being carried? The fins etc look rather huge, which might make it difficult to dual stack them.

As said by others, it seems to be the Israeli Griffin LGB kit that we have seen on 1000lb bombs on LCA earlier too. And yes, the kit seems to bee too big to allow a twin carriage, that's also why I asked too about infos on integration of a twin launcher, since the limited space at the midwing station might be a problem for the aims of using a twin launcher. But then the question is, if they wanted to use the twin launchers at the wings in the first place, or if a configuration like the Mirage 2000 use it at the centerline is the aim.

vina wrote: Those are 500KG (or 1000 lb) bombs kitted out with laser guidance...

...My guess, the existing kit (Paveway II/III) from IAF inventory.

Definitely smaller than the 1000lb in this pic (left Paveway, right Griffin) :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-17rJT_d2Q7w/T ... 282%29.jpg

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Oct 2014 17:48

tsarkar wrote:Off topic here, but found these not so usual pictures of Jaguar IM carrying HSLD bombs. Jaguar IM don't have laser rangefinders, so interesting whether they use conventional bombsights http://data1.ibtimes.co.in/en/full/3088 ... -image.jpg

Even more interesting is Jaguar IM carrying BL755 Cluster Bombs http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/i ... IAF_lg.jpg

and dropping them. The aircraft on the right is IM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/phot ... id=1301017

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755
http://en.valka.cz/files/bl-755_138.jpeg

I think BR has a painting of a cover image of an IAF 50 years book that shows Jags dropping BL 755 on a column of tanks. I recall having scanned that image (I have the booklet) and uploded to BR.

That aside there is also a video of Jags (Tilpat 1979) dropping them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0oegPHT ... aABJoSc-wg

The final explosion appears to be fake, and created for Rajiv Gandhi

Sorry - this is OT for the LCA thread

sattili · Post by **sattili** » 25 Oct 2014 18:00

tsarkar wrote: Curiously, no Litening pod and the bombs are not marked, so looks like carriage trials flight. In Iron Fist 2013, Tejas did drop LGBs.

Are you referring to the LCA pictures above? Tejas is carrying Litening pod under port side air intake saar!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 25 Oct 2014 18:09

Its a shame that 10 squadrons of the LCA are not on order! This can only happen in a corrupt system like ours!

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Oct 2014 18:25

tsarkar wrote:...
Each Tejas inner wing pylon can carry two unguided HSLD bombs like the Jaguar shown here http://lh3.ggpht.com/-qKtynYtR_6k/UbhdP ... t-2013.jpg

Though not two guided bombs.

Lot of Jaguar learnings were put to use for Tejas in those early days.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Oct 2014 18:29

indranilroy wrote:...

What bomb is that?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Oct 2014 18:35

srai wrote:
tsarkar wrote:...
Each Tejas inner wing pylon can carry two unguided HSLD bombs like the Jaguar shown here http://lh3.ggpht.com/-qKtynYtR_6k/UbhdP ... t-2013.jpg

Though not two guided bombs.

Lot of Jaguar learnings were put to use for Tejas in those early days.

That picture, I think, is a model not a real aircraft.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Oct 2014 18:37

Aero-India 2001 LCA display had these weapons laid out:

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Oct 2014 18:39

abhik wrote:
srai wrote:quote="tsarkar"]...
Each Tejas inner wing pylon can carry two unguided HSLD bombs like the Jaguar shown here http://lh3.ggpht.com/-qKtynYtR_6k/UbhdP ... t-2013.jpg

Though not two guided bombs.

Lot of Jaguar learnings were put to use for Tejas in those early days./quote]

That picture, I think, is a model not a real aircraft.

Yes, of course. It was more meant to show that the early model matches what tsarkar is talking about how multiple 250kg/450kg bombs on a same rack will be carried on the LCA.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Oct 2014 19:45

^^^ That configuration is no longer possible, because the mid wing pylons are not plumbed.

But they did wind tunnel tests on carrying two bombs in tandem on the mid wing pylon.

member_28819 · Post by **member_28819** » 25 Oct 2014 21:23

^^ Even if they were plumbed, the middle pylon has the capacity to carry only 800 kg, i.e. it is not capable of carrying a 1200 ltr drop tank. A smaller drop tank might be used, but that would require further development and testing.

member_28819 · Post by **member_28819** » 25 Oct 2014 21:28

indranilroy wrote:Please don't thank me. Credit goes to Rana and ADA.
koti wrote: LCA trainer with a Kaveri engine is a dream. I will distribute sweets on the street if it happens. But I don't think that they will be working on that engine for much longer (other than for AURA). They will migrate to the 115 kN engine soon.

Sir but don't you think that if there was no plan to use LCA with Kaveri even as a trainer, ADA would have discontinued the LCA with alternate engine program? Since ADA is still on the alternate engine program, it is reasonable to assume that Kaveri may be integrated with it in the future at least in the trainer version.

Will · Post by **Will** » 25 Oct 2014 21:39

SaiK wrote:is that 5 headed snake?

Haha

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Oct 2014 04:13

tsarkar wrote:Off topic here, but found these not so usual pictures of Jaguar IM carrying HSLD bombs. Jaguar IM don't have laser rangefinders, so interesting whether they use conventional bombsights http://data1.ibtimes.co.in/en/full/3088 ... -image.jpg

Even more interesting is Jaguar IM carrying BL755 Cluster Bombs http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/i ... IAF_lg.jpg

and dropping them. The aircraft on the right is IM
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/phot ... id=1301017

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755
http://en.valka.cz/files/bl-755_138.jpeg

IM have radars, radars can range..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Oct 2014 04:16

Can BR add a gallery of LCA with all different tanks and payload combos seen till date? Very useful for judging progress and countering misinfo

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 26 Oct 2014 04:56

DevendraC wrote: Sir but don't you think that if there was no plan to use LCA with Kaveri even as a trainer, ADA would have discontinued the LCA with alternate engine program? Since ADA is still on the alternate engine program, it is reasonable to assume that Kaveri may be integrated with it in the future at least in the trainer version.

AFAIK the alternate engine program is for Mk2, i.e. using GE-414 instead of the GE-404. The Kaveri program has been been delinked from the Tejas program. They still wanted to test it on a prototype, but even that has started dying down. The latest that one hears is that a Mig-29 may be modified as a test-bed (great if it happens). The 115 kN engine program that GTRE has embarked, if successful, will make it into LCA Mk2 and AMCA. For the Mk2, they would be whenever the SPs start coming in for middle life engine upgrades. And for the AMCA, we might see them in the series produced models from the get go. The prototypes and SPs will have imported engines.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Oct 2014 14:45

indranilroy wrote:^^^ That configuration is no longer possible, because the mid wing pylons are not plumbed.

But they did wind tunnel tests on carrying two bombs in tandem on the mid wing pylon.

It would be great to see "max" bomb load configurations being carried by the LCAs!

10 x 250kg bombs (2,500kg) -> 2 each on mid and inner wing pylons plus 2 on centreline
6 x 450kg/1000lb bombs (2,700kg) -> 1 each on mid wing pylons; 2 each on inner wing pylons
24 x 100kg bombs (2,400kg) -> 3 each on mid wing pylons; 6 each on inner wing pylons and centreline

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Oct 2014 15:46

Good photo for a visual size comparison.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Oct 2014 00:01

shiv wrote:I think BR has a painting of a cover image of an IAF 50 years book that shows Jags dropping BL 755 on a column of tanks. I recall having scanned that image (I have the booklet) and uploded to BR. That aside there is also a video of Jags (Tilpat 1979) dropping them

Thanks Shiv, for taking the effort to archive that book. Also, good work by cybersurg who archived the video. Those documents give good insight into operations in that decade.

sattili wrote:Tejas is carrying Litening pod under port side air intake saar!

Thank you, Sattili, its too big to miss, my lame excuse being I am using my mobile.

Karan M wrote:IM have radars, radars can range..

Ah, I was thinking about the Thomson CSF Agave that couldn't. Elta 2032 does have A2G modes. The Jaguar IM upgrade forms the stepping stone for DARIN 3 upgrade for Batch 1 Jaguars.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 27 Oct 2014 00:01

srai wrote: It would be great to see "max" bomb load configurations being carried by the LCAs!

For guided bombs which is the standard today,the number of weapons that can be carried is far lower. LCA has realistically only 3 weapon stations for LGBs/PGMs, but LCA test pilot Suneet Krishna once stated to the Tarmark007 blog, that a tandem pylon would be integrated and that it was part of the FOC tasks. So the qestion now remains how they look like and for which hardpoints they are meant. I still think that it might be similar to Mirage 2000 and it's tandem pylons, maybe IAF will use even the same for the LCA and the upgraded Mirage. The only problem will remain, that the use of the midwingstations for bombs, makes LCA limited to IR missiles only, so very basic self protection, similar to the Jags.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Oct 2014 01:27

tsarkar wrote:Ah, I was thinking about the Thomson CSF Agave that couldn't. Elta 2032 does have A2G modes. The Jaguar IM upgrade forms the stepping stone for DARIN 3 upgrade for Batch 1 Jaguars.

Thomson CSF Agave could range too..wide array of modes.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 01116.html
Ranging is critical to all fighter radars, after all, what use is detection (bearing only), if it cant range.

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Oct 2014 04:52

Sancho wrote:
srai wrote: It would be great to see "max" bomb load configurations being carried by the LCAs!
For guided bombs which is the standard today,...

For Western airforces maybe, but not yet for the IAF, which has a very low inventory (<2,000) of PGMs in its arsenal. Compounding this low inventory is yet another issue which is that quite a few of the PGM types are specific to a aircraft platform.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Oct 2014 11:06

Karan M wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Ah, I was thinking about the Thomson CSF Agave that couldn't. Elta 2032 does have A2G modes. The Jaguar IM upgrade forms the stepping stone for DARIN 3 upgrade for Batch 1 Jaguars.
Thomson CSF Agave could range too..wide array of modes. http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 01116.html
Ranging is critical to all fighter radars, after all, what use is detection (bearing only), if it cant range.

From the same link -

Thomson-CSF Agave Flight-testing of this lightweight multi-role radar is new completed and production is under way to equip the Dassault-Breguet Super Etendard. Four operating modes can be used for air-to-air or air-to-ground attacks: search, automatic tracking, ranging, and target designation. Operating frequency is in I/J-band. Like earlier radars from the same company, Agave is fitted with a stabilized reverse-Cassegrain antenna. Maximum range against a fighter is between 10 and 15 n.m., and in the air-to-surface role a patrol boat can be detected at between 22 and 30 n.m. As on the Cyrano series, a map display mode is provided, while contour mapping and blind penetration remain as options. Pulse width, PRF and beam shape can all be varied to suit the various operating modes. In the search mode the Agave antenna scans through 140° in azimuth and 60° in elevation. Once the target has been identified, the pilot switches to automatic tracking. Target data can then be passed to a cathode-ray tube HUD and to missile homing heads.

The ranges are low and the resolution required for bombing is not there in older radars of that generation. All it does is give ground contours. While large targets can be detected & ranged, it does not have the resolution for precision bombing. High resolution SAR/ISAR/GMTI comes with modern radars like Elta 2032.

The Litening Pod on Tejas can do very accurate rangefinding and enable a high degree of precision even with conventional bombs.