Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 24 Oct 2014 22:35

jamwal wrote:Brahmos is limited to just 290 km.

Even pakis don't believe that.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Oct 2014 22:50

Bheeshma wrote:
jamwal wrote:Brahmos is limited to just 290 km.
Even pakis don't believe that.

May be because submarines and ski skimming missiles are hard to detect in the first place. Who knows.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Oct 2014 23:00

sea skimming should be easier to detect than ground skimming (terrain hugging) if one considers the clutter responses. in sea skimming cases, the only that would respond are the surface bound vessels and the skimmer, as rest of radio would be absorbed by water. no?

pakis don't believe it is 290 because they know our capabilities.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 24 Oct 2014 23:37

Wonder if we should pursue lighter, smaller and lesser range CM in the 250-300km range. Most pigsheds are within that range anyway. We can retire prithvis and use it in the same role as Iskandars.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Oct 2014 23:47

Anujan wrote:Wonder if we should pursue lighter, smaller and lesser range CM in the 250-300km range. Most pigsheds are within that range anyway. We can retire prithvis and use it in the same role as Iskandars.

Prahaar and variants will likely be available for that role. CMs are expensive, thx to engine, seeker.

John · Post by **John** » 25 Oct 2014 01:22

Karan M wrote:
Prahaar and variants will likely be available for that role. CMs are expensive, thx to engine, seeker.

I don't think price will be Prahaar's selling point it would be its speed which would give it better penetration ability against bunkers. Solid propelled missile that is around 1.5 tons won't be cheap by any means. The most direct comparison is ATACMS vs TLAM. For US Army MGM-140 are currently around 1.3 million, TLAM cost around the same 1.34 to 2 million. So at least Prahaar will cost half as much as Nirbhay with a local engine.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Oct 2014 02:27

On sea you have less clutter but you also have to deal with anomalous propagation. I read that in transitions to triumph. I think that was the biggest problem trishul had.

member_28722 · Post by **member_28722** » 25 Oct 2014 02:47

Karan M wrote:Prahaar and variants will likely be available for that role. CMs are expensive, thx to engine, seeker.

Prahaar and variants would mainly serve as CAS replacement during actual fighting, freeing up IAF for air superirority
Brahmos, Nirbhay and anything in between would mainly be for high value targets, communications, command centers, nuclear launchers etc ... mostly used as first strike ....

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 25 Oct 2014 11:58

Sea cluuter is as difficult to segregate as ground clutter and worse in rough seas

nash · Post by **nash** » 25 Oct 2014 16:23

TIMES NOW ‏@timesnow 12m12 minutes ago

DAC approves Israeli anti-tank guided missiles worth Rs 3,200 crore for the Army (PTI)

Seems like its SPIKE not JAVELIN

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Oct 2014 16:29

nash wrote:TIMES NOW ‏@timesnow 12m12 minutes ago

DAC approves Israeli anti-tank guided missiles worth Rs 3,200 crore for the Army (PTI)

Seems like its SPIKE not JAVELIN

Spike were being purchased for BMPs as well.
http://www.defencenow.com/news/143/indi ... om-us.html

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Oct 2014 16:30

Details awaited but ...

Hindustan Times ‏@htTweets 37m37 minutes ago

#NewsAlert | Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) clears projects worth about Rs 80,000 crore: PTI

Ultimately, the Army had to buy the Akash only. So this business of putting out int RFIs for systems which are under devpt at home must stop

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 1h 1 hour ago

Some dalals are trying to diss the Akash Army version by talking about 'fire on the move'. Bloody jokers.

Jai ho! if the news is true.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 12m 12 minutes ago

BDL has achieved over 65 % indigenization in the Invar ATGM. Has already completed the initial indent.

nash · Post by **nash** » 25 Oct 2014 16:38

TIMES NOW
11 minutes ago

Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) under Defence Minister Arun Jaitley clears projects worth about Rs. 80,000 crore.
Six submarines worth about Rs. 50,000 crore for Indian Navy to be built in India.
DAC also clears purchase of 12 Dronier aircraft at cost of about Rs. 1,850 crore and
Israeli anti-tank guided missiles worth Rs 3,200 crore for the Army.

thats 55K,

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 25 Oct 2014 16:57

If Spike is approved, that mean Javelin is out. Right?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Oct 2014 17:00

and the Javelin NG too ... Boost for NAG and HELINA. The assumption here is that the NG thing was to kill NAG/HELINA.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Oct 2014 17:03

pankajs wrote:and the Javelin NG too ... Boost for NAG and HELINA. The assumption here is that the NG thing was to kill NAG/HELINA.

Paul wrote:If Spike is approved, that mean Javelin is out. Right?

Spike is for BMPs.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/2013 ... -made-ATGM

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 25 Oct 2014 17:03

What about summer/winter trials for imported maal? Seems foreign maal-with-ToT will get malaai while homegrown production will have to lick milk off empty bowl.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Oct 2014 17:23

http://www.ptinews.com/news/5276363_Cen ... 00-cr.html

New Delhi, Oct 25 (PTI) Defence projects worth a whopping Rs 80,000 crore were today cleared by the government which decided that six submarines will be made indigenously and over 8,000 Israeli anti-tank guided missiles and 12 upgraded Dornier surveillance aircraft will be purchased.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-na ... es-2029101

Defence projects worth a whopping Rs 80,000 crore were cleared on Saturday by the government which decided that six submarines will be made indigenously and over 8,000 Israeli anti-tank guided missiles and 12 upgraded Dornier surveillance aircraft will be purchased.

The decisions were taken following a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council, chaired by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, that lasted for over two hours with Defence Secretary, the Chiefs of all three services, DRDO Chief and other senior officials attending it. The bulk of the decisions went in favour of the Navy that was in dire need of up-gradation and capability enhancement.

The big ticket step was the decision to build six submarines in India at a cost of about Rs.50,000 crore rather than source it from outside. The other major decision was to purchase 8,356 Anti Tank Guided Missile of Israel worth Rs 3,200 crore rather than the US' Javelin missile for the Indian Army. The Army will also purchase 321 launchers for the missile.

Another 12 Dornier surveillance aircraft with enhanced sensors will also be bought from the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd at a cost of Rs 1,850 crore. The DAC also decided to buy 362 infantry fighting vehicle from the Ordinance Factory Board, Medak in West Bengal for Rs 662 crore.

Giving details of the decision to make the six submarines in the country, official sources said a committee will now be formed by the Defence Ministry which will study both public and private shipyards over the next 6-8 weeks.

Following this, the Ministry will issue Request for Proposal (RFP) to specific port that will be identified on the basis of the study which will look into whether they have the capacity and manpower to build six submarines in the same port only besides other parametres.

The submarines will be Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) capable that will enable them to stay underwater for longer than a conventional submarine besides having enhanced stealth features. The Navy currently has 13 operational submarines and the target set in 1999 was to have 24 by 2030.

The previous UPA government had gone in for six Scorpene submarines and the first is likely to be delivered only in 2016.

The decision to manufacture the submarines in India is in line with Prime Minister Narendra Modi's 'Make in India' pitch.

Source seems to be PTI and Indian media reporting on Defense is not very good.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 25 Oct 2014 17:30

6 Project-75I Submarines - Rs. 50000 crore
Spike ATGM - 300 launchers & 8000 missiles - Rs. 3200 crore
12 Do-228 - Rs. 1850 crore ($25 million per aircraft

)
363 BMP-2 - Rs 662 crore

Edit: But these adds upto ~Rs. 55700 crore and the article says Rs. 80000 crore. DDM?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Oct 2014 17:39

hecky wrote:12 Do-228 - Rs. 1850 crore ($25 million per aircraft )

With enhanced sensors whatever it means. Can some of the stuff that has gone into India AEW be added to this plane?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 25 Oct 2014 18:20

Are Dornier for Navy?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Oct 2014 19:55

Not happy with this Spike deal. Why not wait a few months and give the man-potable Nags a chance?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Oct 2014 20:02

Will have to wait for the deal details .. perhaps involves some critical TOT?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Oct 2014 20:15

I don't believe in this ToT nonsense. I kind of agree with Saurav Jha, that whenever our own products near completion, suddenly all the countries want to sell us their wares with ToT. And we oblige by ordering their "superior" products and sending ours to never ending trials.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Oct 2014 20:22

BRAVO GoI BRAVO !!!! Very pleased to hear that Javelin was Spiked !!! Any ways Spike was IA's first choice since it was the only missile which met it's requirement till desh becho party started dirty dancing with Javelin. 8000 missiles are ooth ke muh mein jeera only when the actual requirement runs into thousands IIRC some 25000+ so this order gives DRDO the time to develop our own man portable anti tank missile while our jawans get trained with these new generation missiles. Now DRDO must put our own missile into top priority and try to put initial protos into field testing till IA receives it's first batch of missile.

Now scrap Apache and Chinook as well.

member_23061 · Post by **member_23061** » 25 Oct 2014 20:26

Not happy with the Spike being selected. How is it superior to a variant of Nag being produced?? Is it really an urgent requirement??

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Oct 2014 20:56

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-in ... es-2029136

India chooses Israel's anti-tank guided missile 'Spike' over US' Javelin missiles

India today decided to buy 8,356 Spike anti-tank guided missile and 321 launchers from Israel for Rs 3,200 crore, rejecting US offer of Javelin missiles that Washington was lobbying hard for. The decision was taken following a meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council, chaired by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley, that lasted for over two hours with Defence Secretary, the Chiefs of all three services, DRDO Chief and other senior officials attending it.

India will outright buy 8,356 missiles and 321 launchers from the Israeli firm Rafael Advanced Defence Systems, official sources said. They said the missiles would be brought to India in various stages and pieces.

This, the sources said, would be followed by transfer of technology (ToT) to defence PSU Bharat Dynamics Limited for large-scale manufacture. Asked how much missles the Indian army needs to have to fully equip the Army's 382 infantry battalions and 44 mechanised infantry units, sources put the figure at about 40,000.

Spike is a man-portable 'fire and forget' anti-tank missile that locks on to targets before shooting. The Israeli missile trounced US' Javelin weapons system, built by Lockheed Martin Corp and Raytheon Company but sold to global customers through the US government under the Foreign Military Sales route.

The deal for the missile had been stuck since 2010. The decision to purchase the Israeli missiles came just days after India and US, in principle, agreed to extend their defence agreement for another 10 years which will take forward the cooperation between the two countries in the crucial area.

The US has been pushing defence deals with India worth over Rs 20,000 crore, including the sale of Apache attack choppers, Chinook heavy lift helicopters and the Javelin anti-tank guided missiles. To sweeten the deal, US had recently offer to co-produce and co-develop the missile. It had initially not agreed to provide critical technologies of the missile demanded by India and had also shown reluctance to make available the missiles for being evaluated by Indian experts in the field trials.

Army sources said the trial and staff evaluation of the Spike missile had been completed. US has already sold equipment worth Rs 60,000 crore in the last 10 years to India but none of these weapon sales programme is about joint production or co-development and does not include transfer of technology.

India has raised the FDI cap in defence sector recently from 26% to 49% with the aim of boosting indigenous defence production. India imports almost 70% of its defence needs from foreign sources.

Again to be taken with a bucket of salt given how poor defense reporting is in India.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Oct 2014 20:58

We are looking for a repeat of the Arjun vs T 90. Issue, with the ATGM deal. Am disappointed with the clearance of the purchase.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Oct 2014 21:06

Sagar G wrote:BRAVO GoI BRAVO !!!! Very pleased to hear that Javelin was Spiked !!! Any ways Spike was IA's first choice since it was the only missile which met it's requirement till desh becho party started dirty dancing with Javelin. 8000 missiles are ooth ke muh mein jeera only when the actual requirement runs into thousands IIRC some 25000+ so this order gives DRDO the time to develop our own man portable anti tank missile while our jawans get trained with these new generation missiles. Now DRDO must put our own missile into top priority and try to put initial protos into field testing till IA receives it's first batch of missile.

Now scrap Apache and Chinook as well.

As per reports Spike had (at least initially) failed in its trials.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Oct 2014 21:06

why waste money on many programs like NAG? shut it down and go for spike and javelin. wtf?

i agree we don't have this urgency, and it is created for political purpose. what is needed is more shells against pakistan.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Oct 2014 21:13

abhik wrote:As per reports Spike had (at least initially) failed in its trials.

Might have but I don't worry much now since our own missile has reached hardware stage so it's just a matter of time till we get them into testing phase. This purchase gives DRDO a "cushion" to work on it's own missile.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Oct 2014 21:17

Spike will be complementary to Javelin. Neither should stop development of Nag/Helena. We need tens of thousands of these.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Oct 2014 21:21

I like a decision. So far it has been wavering about making a decision. Having said that the AiP submarines is very good decision as it shows commitment to the submarine arm which suffered from delays and losses. So again a decision to stay in business.
As for the Spike its here, while Nag is in future. Army has been "Waiting for Godot!"
Already 4 years were wasted by GOI.
The demand is for 40K units of which the Spike represents 1/5 of the total.
So lots of room for Nag when it shows up.. Need to get rid of the dual pulse motor.
On Spike vs Javelin looks like the latter was a non-starter with so many caveats and no units for field trials.

SaiK, wrong decision to shut down man portable Nag. Always need your own to entice foreign suppliers. so shutting down will serve their interests. Besides DRDO expenditure is minimal.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 25 Oct 2014 21:25

hecky wrote:6 Project-75I Submarines - Rs. 50000 crore
Spike ATGM - 300 launchers & 8000 missiles - Rs. 3200 crore
12 Do-228 - Rs. 1850 crore ($25 million per aircraft )
363 BMP-2 - Rs 662 crore

Edit: But these adds upto ~Rs. 55700 crore and the article says Rs. 80000 crore. DDM?

Others:
1,761 units of five spoke 7.5 tonne radio containers - Rs 662 crore
1,768 critical rolling stock - open and closed wagons for transport of military equipments - Rs 740 crore
Classified equipment for Navy (MARCOS)

As per my understanding, the Rs 80,000 crore figure includes the items that were listed but pushed till next meeting:
Torpedos for the scorpene submarines
Heavy calibre guns

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 25 Oct 2014 21:30

Victor wrote:Spike will be complementary to Javelin. Neither should stop development of Nag/Helena. We need tens of thousands of these.

What ? Spike AND Javelin ?

Good news with Spike is that atleast BEL will be able to do atleast some marginally productive screwdriver thingy instead of highly PITA imports from USA with numerous terms and conditions. I hope that Indians could get some technology from Spike transferred to portable NAG.

Is there any timeline for whole of this 80000 crore expenditure ? When will deliveries start ?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 25 Oct 2014 21:31

Anymore purchase like javeline will only subtract a big amount from Nag development budget. We should better form a JV with Russia for technology to mass produce of Nag soon.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 25 Oct 2014 21:36

Javelin is dumped now, why is it even being discussed ???

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Oct 2014 21:42

Nikhil T wrote:
hecky wrote:6 Project-75I Submarines - Rs. 50000 crore
Spike ATGM - 300 launchers & 8000 missiles - Rs. 3200 crore
12 Do-228 - Rs. 1850 crore ($25 million per aircraft )
363 BMP-2 - Rs 662 crore

Edit: But these adds upto ~Rs. 55700 crore and the article says Rs. 80000 crore. DDM?
Others:
1,761 units of five spoke 7.5 tonne radio containers - Rs 662 crore
1,768 critical rolling stock - open and closed wagons for transport of military equipments - Rs 740 crore
Classified equipment for Navy (MARCOS)

As per my understanding, the Rs 80,000 crore figure includes the items that were listed but pushed till next meeting:
Torpedos for the scorpene submarines
Heavy calibre guns

What is a five spoke radio container??

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 25 Oct 2014 21:44

Road containers perhaps

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Oct 2014 21:47

jamwal wrote:
Victor wrote:Spike will be complementary to Javelin. Neither should stop development of Nag/Helena. We need tens of thousands of these.
What ? Spike AND Javelin ?

Spike is available off the shelf today. Co-development of Javelin is longer term. It would be foolish to dump Nag after we get to see both from up close. Besides, we should be looking beyond current generation. For example, Javelin team is designing a 2 ft version with greater accuracy and far more range than a grenade launcher with cellphone cameras for cheap. Can be carried by Nishant.