Project 75I - It Begins

[Will]

This is the next awaited big ticket project. Finally cleared and the RFP should be out soon. Lets track it here. Hope it doesn't turn into another saga though in way it already kinda is...

http://idrw.org/?p=45766#more-45766

Looks like Private Shipyards are going to get a shot at this.

[dinesha]

This will bring focus back on critical technology endeavors such as AIP.

March 25, 2014
DRDO developing onboard equipment monitoring system for submarines

At a time when serviceability of submarines operated by the Indian Navy has come under scrutiny, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is said to be developing a system to carry out structured health monitoring of the under-development nuclear submarines and future conventional submarines of the Navy.

Condition monitoring is critical to forestalling breakdown, as it works on the philosophy of predictive (prognosis-driven) maintenance. Constant health monitoring will maximise asset availability besides extending its service life. Such a system, integrated into the very design of submarines, has been installed on the first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant, V. Bhujanga Rao, DRDO director general (naval systems and materials) told The Hindu during an interaction at Kochi recently.

Indian Navy’s conventional submarines — Kilo-class and HDWs — do not have fixed, on-board health monitoring systems that alert technicians ashore to sub-par performance of equipment and systems, signalling potential breakdown.

Health of these submarines is checked periodically using portable monitoring systems comprising a network of sensors, said sources. Such checks are only possible when the submarine is available at harbour. However, all surface ships of the Navy sport such systems, which hold the key to their durability and extended serviceability.

“There’s a laid down inspection schedule for all vessels. For instance, norms suggest that pumps and motors are to be health-checked every six months while propulsion systems need a through inspection every quarter, added sources.

Mr. Rao said condition monitoring systems are extensively used in civil aviation, with technicians on ground receiving forecast on performance of on board systems via data link which helps them swiftly take corrective measures once the aircraft touches down.

The DRDO project is jointly executed by several naval and aeronautical labs and research institutions, with the Naval Science and Technology Laboratory in Visakhapatnam and Aeronautical Development Agency in Bangalore in the lead. The first Indian fighter jet LCA Tejas doesn’t have an on board conditioning monitoring system, but the plan is to have such a system for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) and the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), both under development.

Citing the complexity of such a system, Mr. Rao said at least 800 sensors are needed to monitor the gas turbine that’s being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment, another DRDO facility.

The system being put on board the nuclear submarines will constantly keep a tab on the performance of each and every system and equipment, including critical auxiliary equipment.

On the air independent propulsion (AIP) system, which will considerably enhance the underwater endurance of conventional diesel-electric submarines, Mr. Rao said talks are under way with French firm DCNS to install the DRDO-developed AIP based on hydrogen fuel cell on the last Scorpene submarine built at Mazagaon Dock under the Navy’s Project 75.

“Our technology is proven on a land-based prototype. A submarine-based prototype plug weighing nearly 300 tonnes is now being worked on. The French MESMA AIP being offered for the Scorpenes is an old system with a steam turbine,” he said. The DRDO AIP can be reconfigured for the second line of future conventional submarines under P75 I as well, he added.

[dinesha]

What the Armed Forces Expect from DRDO?
Admiral Arun Prakash | Date:02 Jul , 2014
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/what ... from-drdo/

[nash]

This is the next awaited big ticket project. Finally cleared and the RFP should be out soon. Lets track it here. Hope it doesn't turn into another saga though in way it already kinda is...

http://idrw.org/?p=45766#more-45766

Looks like Private Shipyards are going to get a shot at this.

First with LPD, LUH, etc and now with this, I would say if these are all(RFP and all the tender process) goes swiftly and smoothly then certainly better days are ahead for MIC and Indian Armed forces

[Cain Marko]

So, will this be an indigenous design as well as manufacture? Or phoren maal with screwdrivergiri?

For $8 billion, this will be an expensive boat for sure, more than a billion for a single SSK sounds incredible . Perhaps, the blueprint for phoren maal is also on the cards.

My guess is both FRA and RUS are out unless they offer some newer design , Japanese design with VLS plug for nirbhay?

[Ranjani Brow]

SMX OCEAN concept (based on the hull of Barracuda SSN with AIP):

We learned that the 4,700 tons SSK was designed for an endurance of 14,000 nautical miles (3 months autonomy) and a continuous transit speed of 14 knots for 1 week thanks to its Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system fitted with two fuel cells.

The SMX OCEAN concept is fitted with an impressive load of up to 34 weapons for action in the four domains: anti-air, anti-surface, anti-submarine & action against land targets.

The SMX OCEAN SSK is fitted with one large modular VLS tube that may launch up to six MdCN vertically (much like the Virginia payload module developed by GDEB for the US Navy’s Virginia class of SSN)

[Cain Marko]

that would be something else

[Will]

Wonder if the condition that only designs that have at least one submarine constructed, will be considered, still stands. Don't think that is going to be very feasible as the IN wants bigger subs. There were rumours that one of the reasons the RFP for the P75I was delayed was cause no one had a design that matched the requirements of the IN.

The IN wants bigger subs. Makes sense as it wants to prowl the Indian ocean.One thing that this clearance points to in that aspect is that India still is some way off in building a SSN. Maybe the rector is the problem. You need a much more powerful reactor than what the Arihant is using for an SSN.

That leaves us with the P75I to make up numbers. With all the problems that the Spanish S-80 is having, looks like its out. What does that leave? The German U-216( Singapore is buying two type-218SG based on the U-216), Japanese Soryu... do the Russians have a design that fits requirements? Think India has got as much as it can from the French towards nuclear sub tech. If you are going to buy French, go for additional Scorpenes with a selected AIP plug. Will help make up numbers faster.

Being that this will be the last submarine design that India will be from abroad( if we buy anything beyond the scorpene and the P75I we should go drown ourselves in the Indian ocean) India should try and get all the tech it can from the P75I. Russian tech is already there from the nuke project/s. Get something cutting edge.

[kit]

What about the german built Dolphin class subs with israel....just thinking !

[Will]

What about the german built Dolphin class subs with israel....just thinking !

That's an old design based on the U-209.

[Philip]

The design will have to come from abroad,though the hangup with large conventional subs appears to be an Oz disease.The larger a conventional sub gets,the more difficult it will be to keep quiet and find enough propulsion for the same,AIP notwithstanding.There is simply nothing to compare a large conventional sub with an N-sub.The ATV design (with minor modifications) is ideal for both an SSGN and SSBN role.In fact ATV-1 is actually more suited to the role of an SSGN than SSBN as it lacks enough missile silos for ICBMs.One hopes that the second Akula lease will be signed when Pres.Putin comes to India in Dec.Nevertheless,hats off to Jet Li for a quick breakthrough in this decision and the others taken,which was stagnating for years.The 2 midget subs too are very welcome,we actually nedd about 6-8.The dificulties the Swedes are having in finding a suspected Russian midget sub indicate their value in clandestine warfare.

The DAC to meet once a month is a great decision.This will speed up acquisitions and monitor ones already taken.One looks forward to the Scorpene's torpedoes and arty decision at the next mtg.

[Cosmo_R]

The SMX ocean is a derivative of the Barracuda SSN right? And they think they can change it over to an AIP.

We have Arihant and follow ons. Why can't we base ours on Arihant ?

[Philip]

Egzackly, Hic!

[Victor]

6 Made-in-India Submarines for Navy..
Not sure if this is accurate considering the source but if it is, then kudos to GoI for doing the right thing to put the emphasis on deliverables:

The Indian Navy - the end users - will identify shipyards that can acquire the technology from foreign manufacturers and build the boats on schedule...There are seven shipyards in India, including four government yards.

[Karan M]

The samurais are changing to batteries from AIP for soryus

[member_26622]

Only thing to be certain of in next three months -

Russian Putin flying in to Delhi to tell - 'Gimme 8 Billion or we no supply spares for MKI+AKULA+T-90, 6+2 rusting hulks will be refurbished and delivered within a year'

French Hollande flying in next to tell - 'Russians are a scr*w fest, join our wine+cheese fest - we can deliver six next gen scorpene for 8 billion and a little bit more (chucking to himself, that's another 12 billion - total 20 billion again)'

British Cameron flying in right after - 'That's my money and am coming to get it. Are you forgetting that India needs to pay a royalty to the crown - I will keep all Kashmir protests boxed in as a freebie'

Japanese Abe flying in to proclaim - 'We will loan you 2 billion to build roads+toilets and a bullet train, We build the best submarines because it's Japanese-forget that we have not even fought underwater for last 50 years'

and finally US Obama - 'Am glad that diesel Submarines are not part of CPI index, Inflation would have shot through the roof - Are the Indian paying in soft-ware money?'

[Philip]

[Kakkaji]

Some details in this article:

Defence allowed to flex shopping muscle

Indian companies have so far not demonstrated the capability to develop a submarine in its entirety. But Jaitley and the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) expect that the shipyards selected on the basis of the navy’s requirements will enter into foreign ventures immediately to qualify in the competition.

The decision to approve the Project 75i programme to build six submarines was prompted by two factors.

First, a 30-year submarine-building programme the navy had drawn up in the 1990s is way behind schedule. The navy wanted to have 24 submarines by 2024; it now effectively has 13 with two or three constantly under refit.

Last year, it lost the INS Sindhurakshak, which went down in its berth in Mumbai.

Second, understanding that submarine-building programmes are delayed because foreign vendors cannot be made more accountable, the establishment has decided to make an Indian partner equally responsible.

This means a bulk of the estimate contract value of Rs 50,000 crore (which is likely to escalate), can translate into profits for Indian firms.

Jaitley’s chief purpose in the DAC meeting, his first after returning to office following surgery, was to send the message that the government was ending the tardiness that marked defence procurements under his predecessor, A.K. Antony.

The P75i project is one of the country’s biggest military acquisition programmes. The navy was also signalling that the delays were damaging its capabilities, with more ships being decommissioned than inducted into service.

A committee headed by the defence production secretary will visit seven shipyards to identify those capable of making the P75i submarines.

Five of these are in the public sector: Mazagon Dock (Mumbai), Cochin Shipyard, Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (Calcutta), Hindustan Shipyard (Visakhapatnam) and Goa Shipyard.

The two possible private contenders are Larsen and Toubro (yard in Tamil Nadu) and Pipavav (Gujarat). Larsen and Toubro is already involved in India’s Arihant-class nuclear submarine project.

The P75i submarines are said to be a generation ahead of the submarines that the navy currently operates. The navy wants three additional features to improve its capabilities: air independent propulsion, designed to allow conventional submarines to stay underwater longer than other conventional submarines; the capability to launch land-attack cruise missiles; and enhanced stealth features to reduce noise and vibration and make the vessels harder to detect by sonar.

The committee has six weeks to finalise its recommendations on the shipyards.

[Singha]

the SMX Ocean - highly risky and prone to delays as we would be the lead customer for it. the french navy is never going to buy it. looks cool, but so does the centerspread of penthouse and hustler. the marcos swimout and equipment chamber behind the sail and the UVLS 6 pack is definitely SSNish.

japan is deleting the kockums stirling engine AIP system on Soryu in favour of Li-Ion tech wither local or german probably.

the best local content could be if we can use the Arihant hull but slightly smaller and source the AIP, battery and diesel engines from outside. but the lead ship of the class will take a long time to make and stabilize. in its absense the best bet is likely a adapted Soryu design with a UVLS if Japan is willing to play ball. but it lacks the UVLS now.

the HDW U216 also has the very same single UVLS the SMX is supposed to have. perhaps 5-6 Nirbhays can be fitted in.
http://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/09/01/13/73/216-410.jpg
http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/s ... sketch.jpg
again the risk of being lead customer.

Aussies have tied themselves into a knot saying japan one day, germany the next day. finally they will scrap the deal or buy refurbished 688 class nuclear boats!

I say least risk is Soryu...its already in service, and 2nd gen is built built, problems and solutions will be known...adding that UVLS section will be incremental work.

[srin]

The sticky thing here is the VLS. There seems to be no existing and proven design that has it.

Makes me wonder - given that Nirbhay seems compact enough (atleast diameter-wise) to be fired through torpedo tubes and Brahmos-M in the works that is also presumably designed to be fired from a TT - do you really need the VLS ?

If you get rid of VLS, then you suddenly have a lot of options.

[Thakur_B]

The sticky thing here is the VLS. There seems to be no existing and proven design that has it.

Makes me wonder - given that Nirbhay seems compact enough (atleast diameter-wise) to be fired through torpedo tubes and Brahmos-M in the works that is also presumably designed to be fired from a TT - do you really need the VLS ?

If you get rid of VLS, then you suddenly have a lot of options.

All major options today have VLS (Russians, French, Germans) and even if they don't they will add a plug just for this tender. VLS will also appeal to other customers (Australians, Canadians) who can buy European missiles if not tomahawaks.

[Singha]

actually since we keep firing K15 and brahmos for underwater pontoons and already sub caliber system in arihant, we can contribute that piece as a complete solution to whichever sub is chosen. its better we retain control over that section and OEM provides the electrical power we need.

[kit]

So i suppose there will be a competition between pvt shipyards and foreign collaborators ..Pipav with DCNS / L&T with HDW or Swedish Kockums/SAAB ?? Who else has private shipyards with at least some expertise ? other the DPSUs ?

[srin]

All SSK designs with VLS are on paper. Even a huge sub like Soryu doesn't have it. Having it on an SSBN doesn't make it work for SSK automatically. Like reducing noise despite a huge VLS plug in a small diameter hull affecting the hydro dynamics, etc.

Some of the late model Akulas have 650mm TTs, which can fit a larger missile than Nirbhay. Our Kilos have Klubs configured to fire from the 533mm TTs. So - I don't really see the huge benefit with a VLS.

The land attack option, at best, is an add-on to the primary mission of submarines - to sink other submarines and ships. It is better to focus on getting the best AIP and acoustic stealth than go for an adventure into the unknown.

Now - Singhaji's point - yes, since this is quite unusual, it makes sense to develop if it is our design. But if it is a foreign design, then we will be paying - with money and time and defects - for some else to learn and then implement it on their boats. Doesn't really make much sense given what I have understood.

[dinesha]

I think the Indian Navy will act as the broad facilitator between the Domestic Shipyard and the Foreign Partner.
The chosen shipyard will have to submit different proposals will shortlisted 2-3 collaborators.
The Navy will first choose the single foreign collaborator and then the Joint proposal from different Shipyard would be vetted such that the selected shipyard will have to work with the same foreign partner. This way all the Six subs will be similar with healthy competition between the Shipyard.

IMHO.

[kit]

So is it possible that multiple vendors will land the contract ..say 2 private shipyards with parallel lines but sharing the same foreign expertise ?

[Singha]

We do need the vls to increase strike load on subs ...maybe not nirbhay but brahmos.
Big task forces might be tough to get torpedo close. Gives us few more options on k4 nuclear strike and in future asbm weapon.

[Yagnasri]

I hope Bharat Ship Yards is not given this contract. They are under Corporate Debt Restructuring and management is utterly useless. Already two ships were given to them and they are in mess.

[putnanja]

So is the submarine supposed to be based on foreign design or is it designed by Naval design bureau?

[darshhan]

Do we even require Land Attack missions on our conventional subs as of now? Even if we do, is the requirement that pressing?

Let us evaluate by taking the example of our primary enemy country which is Pakistan. Is there a single inch on Pakistan's territory especially Pakjab and Sindh which our Land based offensive weapons systems cannot target?

Now coming to our secondary enemy which is China, even if we are able to induct 10-12 subs in the next 10 years or so, will India be willing to risk them in a voyage to south china sea from where they can carry out effective strikes(albeit symbolic) on China's eastern seaboard. The logistics of such a mission will itself be extremely challenging.

Mandating Land Attack missions for our upcoming conventional subs for now will unnecessarily result in further Scope creep leading to even further delays (This is when we are facing a tremendous submarine crunch).

Without doubt Land Attack mission is a tremendous capability to have on conventional subs, but we should avoid it at this point of time in order to expedite our future submarine deliveries. At best Land attack role is the secondary or even tertiary mission for any submarine.

The whole Land attack mission fetish stems from aping US and its allies like england. But America is wholly into expeditionary warfare all around the globe and since their Navy needs to justify its existence and funding, they have included the Land attack mission. What is applicable to US is not applicable to us.

[Karan M]

Darshan, please see operation trident. And then think PRC harbours. And whether logistics are beyond us. Never underestimate our folks ability to make things happen.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... harry.html
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trident_(1971)

[darshhan]

Darshan, please see operation trident. And then think PRC harbours. And whether logistics are beyond us. Never underestimate our folks ability to make things happen.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... harry.html
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trident_(1971)

Karan M ji, It is my experience that Scope Creep in any program screws up that program wrt time and cost. So if we want quick induction of these conventional submarines in good numbers, we better keep our requirements to minimum acceptable benchmark. In case of submarines this benchmark is Sea Denial mission i.e targetting all forms of enemy shipping, surface and sub surface, Commercial or military while maintaining acceptable stealth. These subs can also choke PRC harbors as you say. I doubt if these subs have to have dedicated land attack mission for this purpose.

Once adequate numbers of such submarines are inducted, then the next iteration of subs can have
all the extra features that can be loaded onto them. Land attack, anti air, anti satellite(if possible) etc.

[John]

Hate to sound like a broken record, Diesel submarines are effective when cheap and mass produced they can make up for their slow submereged speed and limited payload with numbers and lower noise generation. It makes no sense to purchase them at costs that approach nuclear vessels. Fact that we have u-209 design and we are not mass produced them cheap is frustrating.

[Yagnasri]

My mango man doubt is the same John guruji. Why not SSN now that we have Arihanth class. Just increase production rate to gok huge levels and a close the matter. One question though. Is there any job which ssk will do which ssn can not do?

[Philip]

Going through some old pieces,Rubin did a survey of the Indian pvt. yards,Pipapav and L&T and preferred L&T which had a better engineering capability.I feel that a VLS pack with at least 8 silos for missiles,plus two sizes of TTs (like Israeli Dolfins) will give the sub the capability to carry both BMos as well as Nirbhay and Klub variants too.The entire range of torpedoes including Shkval could be accommodated.Without a VLS pack,the torpedo room will have to be made much larger and for a conventional sub design the choice of weapon to be used more difficult with just 6 tubes.6 tubes plus 8 VLS silos is a much better option.Looking at the French design,with the special forces thingy attached to the sail,there is no possibility for any VLS module to be fitted unlike those proposed for the Amur option offered earlier to India.Given the IN's conventional sub ambitions,a larger design then what exists in current sub types globally perhaps the new Kalina class will be offered,more capable than the Amur/Lada.

In retrospect though,we should've instead plumped for developing our own SSN/SSGN N-subs based upon the ATV design.The capabilities of an N-sub are unmatched by any conventional design.May be extra Akulas are planned for that role in the interim until SSBN series production is stabilized,top priority now and we have mastered building our own N-subs.

[Singha]

that SDV carrier thing on the french sub is detachable I think. ofcourse it would block missile tubes. that is why the virginia class has them ahead of the sail. virginia is a big sub but so well thought out its hard to find a single checkpoint on the slide deck they have not ticked off there.

[Pratyush]

Personally I am at a loss to understand this decision. We have the Arihant design ready to enter service. The navy could easily use the lessons from her and use that experience to design a new boat. So why go outside the country for designs & expertise.

[member_28397]

Personally I am at a loss to understand this decision. We have the Arihant design ready to enter service. The navy could easily use the lessons from her and use that experience to design a new boat. So why go outside the country for designs & expertise.

may be because Navy's current focus is on building more SSBNs, for SSNs they can lease more Akulas from Russians, and I think these SSKs will be build by private players making Navy persue more important SSBNs lines. And as economy grows India can build parallel production lines for domestic SSNs.

[member_23370]

I doubt IN can just lease as many Akulas as it wants. At best one more Akula SSN. They better start focusing on more Arihant follow on's while L&T and MDL build the SSK numbers.

[Yagnasri]

But if SSN can do all the jobs of SSKs and some more and if the cost is almost one and same is it not prudent for us to go for SSNs based on Arihant? Will it also not standardize the supply line and production line and will reduce the costs further.

I mean how many nations have the variety of subs, ships, ACs etc like India? May be CHipanda alone with lot of trash.