Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sense?

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shiv
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:
If Manusmriti has anything to do with Vaivasvata Manu, then it is quite an old text. It would have been written when there were some who considered themselves Arya while others were still out of its fold, so some discrimination between Arya and non-Arya would be expected.
Yes, but any attitudes that place the people of the "original" Aryanization process over and above others is like Saudis>Pakis. It the human history that led to Aryanization in the first place and the possible origins of the Rig Veda tens of thousands of years ago before the origins of language and the fact that it was accepted all over the land in due course and not provably because of the actions of those who came up with the Manusmriti.

In fact this whole business of putting time frames as part of "historiography" is a westernization process - so we now know that X came before Y because "that is how history is supposed to be written - as westerners did it but Indians never knew". If X claims superiority over Y after 4000 years we have a problem that can be exploited by a series of insulting arguments.

Manusmriti speaks of "Vinasana" - ie the place where the Saraswati "disappears" That would place it after a particular time frame. The article I posted above says Manusmriti was "before Ramayana and Mahabharata" because Krishna/Vishnu is not mentioned. But IIRS - the Saraswati finds mention in the Mahabharat.

So "standard western style historiography" and searching for dates from texts along with colonized minds is the culprit for making some cow belt people feel they might be one up. If one part of Bharat feel they had a brownie before another, why not let Germans or Swedes or Russians ay they were one step ahead of that. This is the way western historiography works. It is inapplicable to the analysis of Indian texts - particularly the shrutis and smritis.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by Atri »

Real question to be asked is, when was Manu Smriti ubiquitously popular and enforced in India prior to Bühler's translation? There are many smritis in practice. Furthermore, if we talk of dvijas, aapastambha and ashwalaayana supersede Manu Smriti in authority. Manu SMriti and Arthashastra of chaNakya is popularized by British. Our traditional opinion did not held them so highly (especially true about arthashaastra but also about Manu)
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by shiv »

Atri wrote:Real question to be asked is, when was Manu Smriti ubiquitously popular and enforced in India prior to Bühler's translation? There are many smritis in practice. Furthermore, if we talk of dvijas, aapastambha and ashwalaayana supersede Manu Smriti in authority. Manu SMriti and Arthashastra of chaNakya is popularized by British. Our traditional opinion did not held them so highly (especially true about arthashaastra but also about Manu)
+1

Manusmriti simply added to the arguments the British wanted to make about the "corruptions" of Hindu society and acquired a dynamic of its own.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

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So why play in along those lines?

Overall, there were Jaatis and there was VarNa. varNa comprises of selected cadres drawn from various Jaatis that comprised Indian nation to do specific tasks. Jaatis have their own jurisprudence and are not bound by Manu or any other smritis. They have their own Jaati-Panchaayat to govern their affairs. This freedom is inherent in sanaatana dharma.

Parashuraam - A metaphor bridging Caste System and Varna System
3. As political, sociological, economic and sanskritik consolidation started, there became necessary to have certain groups which could look at the bigger picture. One of the main pre-requisite of such group is that this group itself should be root-less and possession less. Because since India is very rich geography, it needs to be protected over period of time from newer tribes coming from outside India to settle here. For defending the territory, military consolidation is essential and for that to happen, weaving all the indigenous "Jaatis" in one thread of "sanskriti" is essential since it is real pain in arse to control a huge and diverse geography, that is India without participation of most of Jaatis. This participation comes by giving them stake in "common neighborhood watch".

4. This is where the need to have a Brahmana and Kshatriya arose. Brahmin varna was supposed to draw its cadre from all "Jaatis". Some members of "Jaati" should give up their possessions and become "Jaati-less" and start interacting with similar other "Jaati-less" individuals from other regions, Jaatis. Slowly, there arose necessity to have a link language and an artificial language of "Sanskrit" was designed.

5. The "Kshatriya" too has to be "Jaati-less". A raaja although the "owner" of "rajya", was not supposed to have any property of his own. Raja was head of state and state owned the land and Raja owned the land by the virtue of being head of state. A Kshatriya cadre, just like brahmin cadre, was drawn from all Jaatis. Simply because every Jaati wants to have a "stake" in this order so that they are represented and their issues are addressed.

6. This is difference between Varna and Jaati. Varna is selected cadre drawn for purpose of administration, linkage and sanskritik conversation across the "desha" of India so that India remains not only a "desha (geography)" but also a "Rashtra (nation)" with common civilizational heritage.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:Manusmriti speaks of "Vinasana" - ie the place where the Saraswati "disappears" That would place it after a particular time frame. The article I posted above says Manusmriti was "before Ramayana and Mahabharata" because Krishna/Vishnu is not mentioned. But IIRS - the Saraswati finds mention in the Mahabharat.
Would that by any chance be where Saraswati "disappears" into the ocean or it is where it disappears in the land itself?

Another thing is that Aryavarta at that time is not beyond Saraswati, e.g. all the way to the Indus, even though there were settlements over the whole region including between the two rivers - Saraswati and Indus.

And so either Aryavarta did not include Indus region, whose people were called Mlecchas, or Aryavarta's population had at that time not spread out into the region, the region being not populated.

Also term Mleccha seems to be opposite of Arya. As Aryanization spread out, previous Mlecchas became part Aryas as well, and then some other people were called Mlecchas. So it can be a variable term. If a people were once called Mleccha, it does not mean that was for all time.

It is a process!
shiv
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

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Atri wrote:Jaatis have their own jurisprudence and are not bound by Manu or any other smritis. They have their own Jaati-Panchaayat to govern their affairs. This freedom is inherent in sanaatana dharma.
Even Manusmriti records this very fact in at least two places.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

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shiv wrote:Here is a commentary on Manu smriti from, of all places, Globasecurity.org.

To me it is an interesting read so I post without kaament. Take FWIW
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... smriti.htm
Manu-Smriti — The Code of Manu
It is said in Manu Smriti (X, 97) "It is better to do one's own duty (dharma) badly than another's well."

Difficult to say why but at least to me it is pretty difficult to read the write up. Pretty western. Having read parts of MS for personal and professional reasons (it is quite big so could not read the whole which in any case may not be needed), it felt like a fair attempt at narrating conventions and not the fount of laws for Hindus as it is commonly claimed. MS did not give laws, it merely recorded conventions/expectations. It is the same as we commonly say 'MMS/NaMo should have done this'. Unfortunately it matters little to MMS/NaMo. It is more like the way we say towards the end of aartis - 'Dharm ki vijay ho, Adharm ka naash ho, Vishv ka kalyan ho, Gua mata ki jai ho'. Our saying that with/without conviction does not make it happen. It merely makes it personal for us to help achieve that.

In fact Maharishi Manu himself says things that under the methodologies in current usage, will amount to contradictions of, the so called laws he made. And the apparent contradictions are in the areas concering Saakshya/Witness. Imagine. If he was making laws in the current sense then he would not have contradicted himself. You can either impute smartness (of making laws) to him or stupidity (of contradictions) - cannot be both ways. If somebody still insists then it reflects on him instead.

Again for example :
contemporary account of the social and religious institutions of ancient India. The village system it describes is the permanent endowment of the traditionary arts of India. Each community is a little republic, and manages its own affairs, so far as it is allowed, having rude municipal institutions perfectly effectual for the purposes of self-government and protection. Its relations with the central Government are conducted by a headman, and its internal administration by a staff of hereditary officers, consisting of an accountant, watchman, money-changer, smith, potter, carpenter, barber, shoemaker, astrologer, and other functionaries, including, in some villages, a dancing girl, and a poet or genealogist. This whole chapter is of the deepest interest. The form of government it enforces is in marked contrast with the feudal type of the original Vedic traditions to be found running through the Brahmanical revisals of the Ramayana and Mahabharata. All traces of patriotism and of the sentiment of devotion to the common weal, and of loyalty to great national leaders, which certainly characterised the Vedic Aryas of India, and which are essential to the preservation of the liberties and independence of states and empires, have been eliminated from the sacerdotal system of Manu. It recognises only the narrow interests of the family, the village, and, in a very limited degree, except among Brahmans, the caste
The writer is using current understanding of the world which has a lot lot lot to answer for and reading a disqualification where actually none ever existed.

Perhaps the author himself is aware of his own limitations since he too qualifies the collections as 'contemporary account' at the start of the para. It is merely a presumption that 'patriotism and of the sentiment of devotion to the common weal, and of loyalty to great national leaders', are essential to the preservation of the liberties and independence of states and empires.

Again for example elsewhere the writer says:
More recently, scholars have gravitated to the view that the Manu-Samhita, probably dates in its earliest form from about 500 BC, with the texts standardized between 200 BC and AD 200.

Brahmanism would seem to have first originated among Aryan colonists who established themselves between the valleys of the Indus and the Ganges about a thousand years after the Aryan conquest of the Panjab.
What kind dry train of thoughts is this? Jumping from datings in one para to Brahmanism in another. How does he reach the conclusion that MS is relevant for Brahminism. And What the hell is Brahminim - is it Brahamatva - I doubt since it would be even more difficult to address in English.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: Also term Mleccha seems to be opposite of Arya. As Aryanization spread out, previous Mlecchas became part Aryas as well, and then some other people were called Mlecchas. So it can be a variable term. If a people were once called Mleccha, it does not mean that was for all time.

It is a process!
But Manusmriti cannot be taken as a historic record of that process. It has more to do with pushing the superiority and rights of Brahmins than any "Aryanization" even while tippy-toeing around and making sure the the Vedic traditions are not contradicted. To use Witzelian criteria it is in Classical Sanskrit which is much later than the archaic Vedic sanskrit. If Rig Veda schools survived in Kerala, were those schools established before or after Manusmriti? So the timeline of the "process" is not indicated by Manu smriti. I will check and see if Panini refers to Manu smriti - he is, after all said to sit on the cusp between the Vedas and the later classic sanskrit era.

It is unfortunately Manusmriti that has contributed to historiography of that process, pushed by the British and swallowed by Indians, especially the upper castes - for whom the story is a juicy and positive one, creating pride and superiority over their own people and greater acceptance by the Brits in their process of fractal recursivity and mental colonization
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by RajeshA »

Even as Aryanization was a process, I believe there was another process of Dharmaization of Aryas. So what was considered Arya earlier, may itself have changed upon Dharmic introspection later.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by Karan M »

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote: Also term Mleccha seems to be opposite of Arya. As Aryanization spread out, previous Mlecchas became part Aryas as well, and then some other people were called Mlecchas. So it can be a variable term. If a people were once called Mleccha, it does not mean that was for all time.

It is a process!
But Manusmriti cannot be taken as a historic record of that process. It has more to do with pushing the superiority and rights of Brahmins than any "Aryanization" even while tippy-toeing around and making sure the the Vedic traditions are not contradicted. To use Witzelian criteria it is in Classical Sanskrit which is much later than the archaic Vedic sanskrit. If Rig Veda schools survived in Kerala, were those schools established before or after Manusmriti? So the timeline of the "process" is not indicated by Manu smriti. I will check and see if Panini refers to Manu smriti - he is, after all said to sit on the cusp between the Vedas and the later classic sanskrit era.

It is unfortunately Manusmriti that has contributed to historiography of that process, pushed by the British and swallowed by Indians, especially the upper castes - for whom the story is a juicy and positive one, creating pride and superiority over their own people and greater acceptance by the Brits in their process of fractal recursivity and mental colonization
http://www.manushi.in/blog_content.php?blogid=49

From Manusmriti to Madhusmriti
Flagellating a Mythical Enemy
First Published in : March-April 2000, Manushi # 117

image

ON March 25 of this year, copies of Manusmriti were burnt by reformers protesting against the ill-conceived installation of the statue of Manu in the precincts of the Rajasthan High Court. The protestors believed that the text is the defining document of Brahmanical Hinduism, and also the key source of gender and caste oppression in India. In the ensuing controversy defenders of Manusmriti projected it as a pivotal canonical source of religious law for Hindus.

In a somewhat similar fashion, Deepa Mehta's film Water revived an ongoing controversy about whether those who exploit and downgrade women are following shastric injunctions. In the course of trying to explain why this debate amounts to a misunderstanding of the role of the shastras in Hindu religious life, I commented in a recent TV interview that Manusmriti (and other shastric texts) have as much or as little authority for Hindus as have Madhusmriti (my writings) - or for that matter the pages of Manushi, for its subscribers.

This perfectly serious statement was dismissed as "facetious" by many feminists (see for example, Images of Widowhood in The Hindustan Times of Feb. 19, 2000 by Urvashi Butalia and Uma Chakravarti). Others, claiming to speak on behalf of Hindu culture, took my comment as an insult to the great shastrakar himself. These diverse responses indicate that there is a serious misconception among the modern educated elite over the actual status and role of the shastras in our religious life and cultural traditions.

The confusion is not theirs alone; these common misrepresentations are an unfortunate byproduct of our colonial education which we slavishly cling to, even though it is more than five decades since we declared our Independence. We keep defending or attacking the same hackneyed quotations from the shastras and the epics which, incidentally, colonisers used for the purpose of creating a new discourse about these writings. Their inaccurate and biased interpretations have continued to inspire major misreadings of our religious tenets.*

The Search for Non-Existent ‘Hindu Fundamentals'

The Englishmen who came as traders in the 17th century were befuddled at the vast diversity and complexity of Indian society. Having come from a culture where many aspects of family and community affairs came under the jurisdiction of canonical law, they looked for similar sources of authority in India. They assumed, for example, that just as the European marriage laws were based in part on systematic constructions derived from church interpretations of Biblical tenets, so must the personal laws of various Indian communities similarly draw their legitimacy from some priestly interpretations of fundamental religious texts.

In the late 18th century, the British began to study the ancient shastras to develop a set of legal principles that would assist them in adjudicating disputes within Indian civil society. In fact, they found there was no single body of canonical law, no Hindu Pope to legitimise a uniform legal code for all the diverse communities of India, no Shankaracharya whose writ reigned all over the country. Even religious interpretations of popular epics like the Ramayana failed to fit the bill because every community and every age exercised the freedom to recite and write its own version. We have inherited hundreds of recognised and respected versions of this text, and many are still being created. The flourishing of such variation and diversity, however, did not prevent the British from searching for a definitive canon of Hindu law.

Perhaps more egregiously, in their search, the British took no steps to understand local or jati based customary law or the way in which every community - no matter how wealthy or poor -regulated its own internal affairs through jati or biradari panchayats, without seeking permission or validation from any higher authority. The power to introduce a new custom, or change existing practices, rested in large part within each community. Any individual or group respected within that biradari could initiate reforms. This tradition of self-governance is what accounts for the vast diversity of cultural practices within the subcontinent. For example, some communities observe strict purdah for women, whereas others have inherited matrilineal family structures in which women exercise a great deal of freedom and social clout. Some disapprove of widow remarriage, while others attach no stigma to widowhood and allow women recourse to easy divorce and remarriage.

The multiplicity of codes was a major reason for the wide divergence in judgments, interpretations and reports provided by the pandits appointed to assist British judges presiding over the newly established colonial courts. Often, the same pandits even gave different opinions on seemingly similar matters, confounding the judges of the East India Company. The British began to mistrust the pandits and became impatient with having to deal with such a range of customs that had no apparent shastric authority to back them, since that made it difficult for them to pose as genuine adjudicators of Hindu law. The British were even more nonplussed because they had a history of using the common law system, based on precedent. However, given the myriad opinions of the Indian pandits, they couldn't depend on uniform precedents to make their own judgments.

An Anglo-Brahamanical Hybrid

In order to arrive at a definitive version of the Indian legal system that would mainly be useful for them, the East India Company began to recruit and train pandits for its own service. In 1772, Warren Hastings hired a group of eleven pandits to cooperate with the Company in the creation of a new digest of Hindu law that would govern civil disputes in the British courts. The Sanskrit pandits hired to translate and sanction this new interpretation of customary laws created a curious Anglo-Brahmanical hybrid. The resulting document, printed in London under the title, A Code of Gentoo Laws, or, Ordinations of the Pandits, was a made-to-order text, in which the pandits dutifully followed the demands made by their paymasters. Though it was the first serious attempt at codification of Hindu law, the text was far from accurate in its references to the original sources, or to their varied traditional interpretations.

The very idea of "Hindu" law, in fact, was as much a novelty as the idea of a pan-Indian Hindu community. In the pre-British era, people of this subcontinent used a whole range of markers based on region, jati, language, and sect to claim and define their identities. Hardly anybody identified themselves as "Hindu" - a term first introduced by foreigners to refer to people living across the Indus River. The British lent new zeal in bringing actual substance to the new identity markers imposed by Europeans on the diverse non-Muslim inhabitants of the subcontinent. The codification of their so-called "personal laws" became an important instrument in that endeavour.

Maha Pandit William Jones

This codification still could not put an end to the conflicts of opinion. The British mistrust of the pandits increased, along with their frustration at the way they thought they were misleading the court primarily by favouring the interests of their own caste, and dealing with a spectrum of customs that were not certified by any apparent shastric source.

The resulting confusions and reports of corruption led William Jones to work on a more ‘definitive' code of Hindu law, as a reference work for Europeans in India. Jones' statement says it all:

"I can no longer bear to be at the mercy of our pandits who deal out Hindu law as they please, and make it at reasonable rates, when they cannot find it ready made." (Derret, p. 244)

He was determined that the British should administer to the Indian people the best shastric law that could be discovered. Jones went on to translate Manusmriti. It became one of the most favoured texts of the British. A policy decision was taken at the highest levels in the India Office to keep this particular document in circulation and project it as the fountainhead of Hindu jurisprudence, for the purpose of perpetuating the illusion that the British were merely enforcing the shastric injunctions by which Hindus were governed anyway, and that they had inherited the authority to administer this law.

Thus Manusmriti came to influence Oriental studies in the West far more profoundly than it had ever influenced the practices of any actual living communities in pre-British India. After Jones, Colebrook tried his hand at a similar compilation. In a few years time, Colebrook's translations of the Mitakshara and the Dayabhaga became the two most frequently referenced sources in court judgments. At the same time, several Sanskrit scholars were also writing legal treatises, but the work of European authors on shastric law was held in higher authority than even the genuine Sanskrit shastric works.

The British consistently promoted the myth that Hindus were governed by their codified versions of shastric injunctions. The modern educated elite in India, whose knowledge of India comes mainly from English language sources, were thenceforth systematically brainwashed into believing that the British were actually administering Hindu personal laws through the medium of the English courts. This was part of a larger myth-building exercise, whereby the people of the subcontinent were taught that theirs was a stagnant civilisation. The ignorant assumptions of our colonial rulers, that social stability in India was due to the supposed proclivity of its people to follow the same old traditions, customs and laws that had allegedly remained moribund for centuries, slowly came to acquire the force of self-evident truth over a period of time, both for those supporting as well as those opposing British rule.

Custom vs Anglo Shastric Law

Since then, the dynamism of customary law has been in constant conflict with the frozen and artificial Anglo-Shastric law. Dharmashastras, for instance, were not strictly religious treatises. Dharma itself means the aggregate of duties and obligations - religious, moral, social and legal - delineated for every individual and collective performing a specific role in society. For example, the obligations and duties of a person in his role as a king (raj-dharma) are different from his obligations as a husband or son (pati-dharma or putra-dharma). Similarly, guru-dharma demands specific responsibilities from a teacher just as shishya-dharma binds students to their own set of obligations. Even war demanded a very rigorous code -yuddha-dharma. The list is endless and refers mostly to secular duties.

Similarly, the smritis are collections of precepts written by the rishis, the sages of antiquity. Smritis are presumed to be the compositions of human authors, not gods; these authors make it clear that they are merely anthologising traditions handed down to them over generations. They did not hesitate to propose changes and reforms in their writings. For instance, Apastamba, whose work embodies the customs of certain regions of southern India, and who authored one of the most respected Sutras, takes care, at the end of his work, to impress his pupils with the statement:

"Some declare that the remaining duties (which have not been taught here) must be learnt from women and men of all castes." He adds, "the knowledge which... women possess is the completion of all study." (Mulla, Principles of Hindu Laws, N.M. Tripathi Pvt., 15th ed., 1986, p. 15).

Neither shastras nor smritis suggest that there exists an immutable, universal moral doctrine. Rather, they emphasise that codes of morality must be specific to time, person, and place, and evolve according to changing requirements. For example, Narada states, "custom is powerful and overrides the sacred law." Manusmriti itself stresses that the business of the ruler is not to impose laws from above but that,

"a king... must inquire into the law of castes (jati), of districts (Ganapada), of guilds (Shreni), and of families (kula), and settle the peculiar law of each...Thus have the holy sages, well knowing that law is grounded on immemorial custom, embraced as the root of all piety good usages long established." (Mulla, Principles of Hindu Laws, 15th ed., 1986, p. 23).

The authority to change or create new customs rests with not just the biradari but also the kula or family. Our smritikars repeatedly stress the primacy of custom and practice over textual axioms.

People as Law Makers

Since different smritikars documented the customs of different communities, there were substantial differences in their approaches, perspectives, and precepts. But characteristically, none of the smritikars deny the authority of other smritikars or attempt to prove that theirs is the supreme, most authoritative version of a code of conduct. They acknowledge that the authority of the king and the law are derived from the people. Most of the leading smritikars make explicit statements to this effect. The Smriti of Yajnavalkya, for instance, lists twenty sages as law givers. The Mitakshara explains that the enumeration is only illustrative and Dharmasutras of others are not excluded. Nor is the authority of any shastrakar assigned hierarchical importance.

The smritikars were not rulers. Nor did they owe their authority to any sovereign political or military power. The authority of the codes they enjoined were not enforced by punitive measures. Their influence depended solely on the voluntary internalisation of such value systems by the groups to which they addressed themselves to, and people's respect for their judgement. Actual enforcement was left in the hands of the local communities. An oft-repeated maxim was that reason and justice are to be accorded more regard than mere texts. Most important of all, a dharmic code, in the rishis' view, was one that was "agreeable to good conscience."

Gandhi is one of the few modern social reformers to have understood this principle underlying the shastras. Therefore, he could unhesitatingly declare:

"My belief in the Hindu scriptures does not require me to accept every word and every verse as divinely inspired... I decline to be bound by any interpretation, however learned it may be, if it is repugnant to reason or moral sense." (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, The Publication Division, Government of India, Vol. XXI, p. 246)

He goes on to add:

"1) I believe in varnashrama of the Vedas which in my opinion is based on absolute equality of status, notwithstanding passages to the contrary in the smritis and elsewhere.

2) Every word of the printed works passing muster as ‘Shastras' is not, in my opinion, a revelation.

3) The interpretation of accepted texts has undergone evolution and is capable of indefinite evolution, even as the human intellect and heart are.

4) Nothing in the shastras which is manifestly contrary to universal truths and morals can stand.

5) Nothing in the shastras which is capable of being reasoned can stand if it is in conflict with reason." (The Collected Work of Mahatma Gandhi, Vol. LXII, p. 121).

Gandhi could present himself as a modern day sage calling upon people to overthrow beliefs and practices that did not conform to principles of equality and justice -or went against "good conscience" - because he had inherited a tradition whereby the power to change its own customary law rested with each community.

People in India have demonstrated time and again that they are willing to accept changes in their customs, provided those who propose change take the trouble to win the confidence of the community, rather than attack or humiliate the community as hostile outsiders. The success of the 19th century social reformers is testimony to this inherent flexibility of Hindu communities. In recent decades, the work of Swadhyaya in parts of western India, the Radhasoamis in Northern India, and many other reform movements have carried forward the same tradition.

Practice of Self-Governance

Thus, the practice of self-governance continues to be a dynamic tradition in India. Each caste, sub-caste and occupational grouping continues to assert its right to regulate the inner affairs of its own community and does not pay much attention to either ancient textual authorities or to modern parliament-enacted laws. When an individual or a group in India seeks to defend a particular practice, the common statement one hears across the country is, "hamari biradari mein to yeh hi chalta hai" (This is how we do things in our community) - rather than quotations from the shastras.

Those who insist on attributing our social ills to the shastras repeat the mistake of our colonial rulers. Just as a doctor can kill a patient through wrong diagnosis and treatment of the disease - no matter how benign the intention - in the same manner social reformers can wreak havoc on the people if their understanding of social ills is flawed.

Discrimination against women or Dalits is neither inherently ‘Hindu' nor is it scripturally mandated. This is not to suggest that such practices do not exist. Sadly enough, the disgraceful treatment of Dalits and downgrading of women are among the most shameful aspects of contemporary Indian society. But they will not disappear by burning ancient texts because none of the ‘Hindu' scriptures have projected themselves as commandment-giving authorities demanding unconditional obedience from all those claiming to be Hindus.

For example, oppressive widowhood was and is practised only in certain castes and communities in some regions among the Hindus.

According to the 1901 census, the ban on widow remarriage applied to only ten percent of all the communities in India. And yet, in colonial critiques, this ban came to be projected as the universal situation of all widows in India.

If we look closely, we will find that many of the older widows have ended up in exploitative institutions of Varanasi and Vrindavan not because of Manu's commands, or any other religious stipulations, or even the dictates of some contemporary patriarch. They are there primarily because of the failure of their community to provide secure rights for women in the family and many are there even because of ill-treatment by their daughters-in-law. It is also important to remember that of all the millions of widows only a few thousand end up in places like Vrindavan and Varanasi. True, many may live oppressed lives within their own homes. But it is also true that many others live respected lives as honoured matriarchs. If all Indian women are so subordinate, as suggested by a certain kind of feminist literature, we would not so frequently encounter the phenomenon of the dominating mothers-in-law who, in many homes, has the power to make or break their children's marriages. Nor would we witness innumerable older women putting up with humiliation and neglect because their daughters-in-law have come to acquire such a powerful hold over their husbands that they can make them abuse their own mothers. Those who find this description of the situation far-fetched should do a survey of their own families. They are likely to find both these extremes coexisting within their own family circles, along with instances of fairly balanced and reasonably happy equations.

We are free to rid ourselves of any text that debases women or certain castes. Let us not imagine that Manu or any other shastrakar is obstructing our efforts to improve the lot of women or other oppressed groups. Despite some of the very negative and offensive things he might have said from our point of view (which many scholars hold to be later interpolations)** Mr. Manu did have the proper sense to pronounce that good karma was more important than biological lineage. He also emphasised that families and societies which demean women and make them lead miserable lives inevitably move towards destruction. He noted that truly prosperous families are only those in which women are honoured and happy.

I believe that Manu bhai would fully endorse my writing a Madhusmriti, no matter how much I differ with him. He would probably rejoice in the fact that many people of today prefer Madhusmriti to Manusmriti because Manu, like all other smritikars, emphasised that codes of morality are not fixed by some divine authority, but must evolve with respect to the changing requirements of generations and communities.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by partha »

Shatavadhani Ganesh on cultural unity of India. From 57:00 -

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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by shiv »

Karan M wrote:
http://www.manushi.in/blog_content.php?blogid=49

From Manusmriti to Madhusmriti
Flagellating a Mythical Enemy
.
Thanks for posting - it was actually linked earlier in this thread. I have a couple of comments:

1.There is no single unitary "Hindu canon" that calls for religious unity or else... There is no single Hindu religious canon that calls for fascist unity to eliminate rival religions

2. Despite this fuzzy state of affairs where people can see nothing that unites, there definitely is a sense of unity that seeks to preserve society, culture and the land from what are seen as deleterious change.

In my view both culture and land are being protected by a not so visible unity among a diverse set of Hindus from all over the land. Note that they are not specifically protecting a "Hindu religion" with written rules that it should be protected. If protection has been demanded for anything since the beginning of time in India - it is dharma.

That being the case, let me re post a couple of paragraphs from my first post which started this thread
Over the years, in my online interactions with people, I have said a lot of things. Some people (usually educated English speaking Indians of my social class and educational background) have accused me of being a "supporter of Hindutva" - as if I have some deep desire to cremate all Muslims alive and rip open pregnant bellies of Muslim women. In online conversations they usually illustrate any views they don't like with a linked online image of the stereotypical "Hindutva-vadi". The stereotype hated "Hindu nationalist" is typically a figure wearing shorts, a hastily smeared tilak (a messy patch of vermilion on the forehead), sometimes with orange flag or robes - with his fist raised and mouth open ostensibly calling for the killing of all people dubbed as non Hindu. In these days of photoshop the Hindutva-vadi of "Hindu nationalist" image shows dead people or burning buildings in the background

This is an interesting tactic that forces any Indian who claims patriotism or nationalism on the defensive, accusing him of being a supporter of genocide and a person who wishes to drive all Indian Muslims to Pakistan; to kill all Muslims and Christians. The fact that Pakistanis and evangelist groups purporting to represent Indian SC/ST groups do this is beside the point. Indians, who are Hindu in most ways and hold a different political view also claim that there is a separate form of suicidal, self destructive and violent nationalism that is called "Hindu nationalism" which needs to be suppressed and rooted out in order to bring civilization into India.
Why?
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by member_22733 »

shiv wrote:That being the case, let me re post a couple of paragraphs from my first post which started this thread
Quote:
Over the years, in my online interactions with people, I have said a lot of things. Some people (usually educated English speaking Indians of my social class and educational background) have accused me of being a "supporter of Hindutva" - as if I have some deep desire to cremate all Muslims alive and rip open pregnant bellies of Muslim women. In online conversations they usually illustrate any views they don't like with a linked online image of the stereotypical "Hindutva-vadi". The stereotype hated "Hindu nationalist" is typically a figure wearing shorts, a hastily smeared tilak (a messy patch of vermilion on the forehead), sometimes with orange flag or robes - with his fist raised and mouth open ostensibly calling for the killing of all people dubbed as non Hindu. In these days of photoshop the Hindutva-vadi of "Hindu nationalist" image shows dead people or burning buildings in the background

This is an interesting tactic that forces any Indian who claims patriotism or nationalism on the defensive, accusing him of being a supporter of genocide and a person who wishes to drive all Indian Muslims to Pakistan; to kill all Muslims and Christians. The fact that Pakistanis and evangelist groups purporting to represent Indian SC/ST groups do this is beside the point. Indians, who are Hindu in most ways and hold a different political view also claim that there is a separate form of suicidal, self destructive and violent nationalism that is called "Hindu nationalism" which needs to be suppressed and rooted out in order to bring civilization into India.


Why?
I may have answered this before in this thread. It is because Hindu-"ism" (we should avoid calling it "ism") or rather the state of being a Hindu, and Hindu assertiveness of values (Dharma?) will result in a society where Abrahamic universalism is irrelevant and unnecessary.

So the quest to eliminate cultural Hinduism is due to two reasons
1) Dealing with unfinished business of spreading abrahmic religion all around India.
2) Dealing with their own existential crises arising due to the fact that their universalism is hollow in the face of anyone who follows Hindu values (Dharma).

Projection of their own attrocities onto Hinduism is more of an afterthought. It is a snake-oil that is sold to "liberals". Western liberals are like Sufis in Islam. They will do Yoga with you, they will dance bollywood numbers but they will never ever cross the line that divides you and them. And when the time comes, they will promptly go back to being hardcore abrahamics.

I have seen many many cases of that in the US. Whites who are liberals in college, will turn super conservative religious folks after they start making money and hit 40s. The amount of churn in that area is huge, especially in rural areas like the US north-west.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by shiv »

LokeshC wrote:
I may have answered this before in this thread. It is because Hindu-"ism" (we should avoid calling it "ism") or rather the state of being a Hindu, and Hindu assertiveness of values (Dharma?) will result in a society where Abrahamic universalism is irrelevant and unnecessary.

So the quest to eliminate cultural Hinduism is due to two reasons
1) Dealing with unfinished business of spreading abrahmic religion all around India.
2) Dealing with their own existential crises arising due to the fact that their universalism is hollow in the face of anyone who follows Hindu values (Dharma).

Projection of their own attrocities onto Hinduism is more of an afterthought. It is a snake-oil that is sold to "liberals". Western liberals are like Sufis in Islam. They will do Yoga with you, they will dance bollywood numbers but they will never ever cross the line that divides you and them. And when the time comes, they will promptly go back to being hardcore abrahamics.
This is a good enough explanation.

I am making the case here that there exists a sense of unity and nationalism in India that has held the country together as a sociocultural unit despite being divided into political units. It is, like Indira Gandhi said, "pro-India" and not "anti-something else". Hindu-ism has played a stellar role in that centuries long unity because neither political divisions nor religious divisions have actually removed a sense of "ownership of the nation" that Indians feel.

Nation states have been built along religious, ideological, ethnic or linguistic lines. None of these holds true for India and that is why - to an oiseaule like Churchill, India was as much a nation as the equator. Of course Ass-kisstanis in the shitadel of Deen next door loved saying this but they are learning a few lessons now. But my aim is to make Indians think about themselves and not see themselves through the projected fantasies of others.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by member_22733 »

shiv wrote:
I am making the case here that there exists a sense of unity and nationalism in India that has held the country together as a sociocultural unit despite being divided into political units. It is, like Indira Gandhi said, "pro-India" and not "anti-something else". Hindu-ism has played a stellar role in that centuries long unity because neither political divisions nor religious divisions have actually removed a sense of "ownership of the nation" that Indians feel.
I just had a small "AHA" moment.

I have read (I think it was on BRF), that Hindu-ism is a culture of abundance while Abrahamic desert religions/cults are cultures of scarcity.

Note: The "you" below is not any particular person, but a generalization of everyone.

The abundance in Hindu-ism does not exist in a tangible physical abundance, it is entirely intangible. i.e. Just the feeling of having plenty would put you in a much different psychological state than the feeling of not having anything.

When you "feel" that you have a lot you would be more forgiving, more adjusting, more kind, more understanding, more honest and generally happy.

I think that is the reason for a large part of the unity in India. People "had" a lot, or they felt they had a lot. In either case, you would love the land that gave you this gift. You will feel like you would need to protect it with everything you got against its enemies.

Whereas with Abrahamic religions/cults. Even if you physically have a "lot", you will still feel that you need more. You will look at the land as utility, you will exploit it to its depths and then you will move on to steal whatever you can from others because you still feel empty and hollow as the culture you are following is one of scarcity.

This matches the desert religion to a tee. The desert is cruel, there is nothing there. You dont feel attached to it as it has given you nothing but pain. You gotta use it till it has nothing more to give you, and then you move on to the neighbors land.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

JE Menon wrote:>>Beef eaters in central asia, korea and japan besides other places, in otherwords beyond the original aryavrat, were admitted to Buddhism. This was a major revolt and I am not following why you are not able to see this?

This was a major revolt against Hinduism in these places? My question is wholly related to the characterisation of the emergence and spread of Buddhism as a "revolt" against Hinduism. On the basis of what are you saying it did not happen, rather, like I describe in my earlier post? A revolt, doctrine or otherwise, has certain connotations.
What might these connotations be?
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

Pulikeshi wrote:
peter wrote: Does he even know that a hindu temple cannot be consecrated unless it has an image of a male and female making out?
I am all for making out, but source if you can please...
Please visit the local hindu temple in your area and ask them to show you the proof.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

Pulikeshi wrote:
peter wrote:Not quite. Aryas lived in Aryavrat and people beyond it were not arya for specific reasons. Please investigate the reasons.
The Balinese people are followers of both Sanathana Dharma (SD) as well as the Varna/Jati tradition. They consider themselves Arya and even use it in their names to date. The Iranians would consider themselves Arya as well and did have a version of the Varna system in vogue. So not sure of your points and what is it?
Aryavrat has been defined by many Sanskrit texts please read them. Me claiming to be "arya" is a bit different then whether "aryas" consider me an arya or not. Iranians under zoroaster had a schism with vedic aryans and considered themselves "the arya". Though the indic aryas did not accept the iranians to be aryas.
peter wrote:Second Buddhism believed in conversion. The missionary zeal of Buddhism took it to Japan, central asia and south east asia and who knows where else.

Hinduism had no conversion. Again 180 degrees apart.
Pulikeshi wrote: There are two key ill understood dimensions to the issue - individual versus groups and belief versus action.
That is, it is quite correct to say SD does not have conversion, but it is quite incorrect to suggest that acceptance of the SD umbrella did not occur or does not occur.

These farflung places were not aryavrat and the key to identify how this worked is through marriages. In Indian kingdoms a kings son had to be from a mother who was the same group as the father.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by JE Menon »

peter wrote:
JE Menon wrote:>>Beef eaters in central asia, korea and japan besides other places, in otherwords beyond the original aryavrat, were admitted to Buddhism. This was a major revolt and I am not following why you are not able to see this?

This was a major revolt against Hinduism in these places? My question is wholly related to the characterisation of the emergence and spread of Buddhism as a "revolt" against Hinduism. On the basis of what are you saying it did not happen, rather, like I describe in my earlier post? A revolt, doctrine or otherwise, has certain connotations.
What might these connotations be?
Click below. First line gives primary meaning.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revolt
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

peter wrote:
JE Menon wrote:>>Beef eaters in central asia, korea and japan besides other places, in otherwords beyond the original aryavrat, were admitted to Buddhism. This was a major revolt and I am not following why you are not able to see this?

This was a major revolt against Hinduism in these places? My question is wholly related to the characterisation of the emergence and spread of Buddhism as a "revolt" against Hinduism. On the basis of what are you saying it did not happen, rather, like I describe in my earlier post? A revolt, doctrine or otherwise, has certain connotations.
What might these connotations be?
JE Menon wrote: Click below. First line gives primary meaning.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revolt
Thanks! The second line from your link describes the Buddhist situation very clearly:
to act in a way that shows that you do not accept the control or influence of someone or something
which in the case of Buddha was the prevailing practices of the religion he was born in.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

peter wrote:
RajeshA wrote: How does one otherwise explain Ramayana being a central theme in Thailand, even though it is a Buddhist country?!
Hindu King and buddhist subjects is perfectly fine.
RajeshA wrote: King Bhumibol Adulyadej of Thailand is also called King Rama IX. His "religion" if one can call it that is Theravada Buddhism. The House of Mahidol, Chakri Dynasty has contributed a lot in preserving Ramayana as a popular culture in Thailand.
Many examples of such behaviour in India too. So what?
peter wrote:Second Buddhism believed in conversion. The missionary zeal of Buddhism took it to Japan, central asia and south east asia and who knows where else.

Hinduism had no conversion. Again 180 degrees apart.
RajeshA wrote: So what were those Japanese who believed in both Shintoism and Buddha, were they Buddhist or not?
peter wrote:How does it matter?
RajeshA wrote: It matters! Can a Muslim also belong to "Hinduism" or Christianity or something else? No! Can a Christian belong to Islam, to "Hinduism" or something else? No! Why not?
This is a classic case of drawing generalizing conclusions from a sample and applying it to the whole. Have you interviewed every Buddhist and know for sure that they follow multiple religions?
RajeshA wrote: Because Islam and Christianity are religions. There is an issue of oath of allegiance or oath of submission. One chooses a particular exclusive path of salvation, but more importantly one chooses a form of brotherhood, a group identity. One cannot have multiple allegiances.
Please travel to western europe and other western countries to understand that your statement is a gross generalization and patently false.
RajeshA wrote:However the Secularists too sell the nonsense that Hinduism is a religion, ......
peter wrote:Here I differ. Our stalwarts also called Hinduism a religion before british hegemony. Perhaps time to change your own views.
Image
Image
RajeshA wrote: What I can read is "Hindu Dharma". I see nowhere "religion" or "Hinduism". You are making a case that "Dharma == Religion"! I don't see how you can make a case like that, based on what you have provided.
Please read the last line of the first column on second page. It says" We all at this time should make a lot of effort to protect Hindu, Hindustan and Hindu Dharm".
Hindu temples of Krishna, Shiva, Vishnu, Durga, and numerous other gods were continually broken but Hindus never fought to protect their religion! So opines JNU AMU and other morons. Why is your argument so similar to theirs?
Shivaji is extolling Jai Singh to protect Hindu Dharm. If this is not clear to you then nothing will be becuase you are so wedded to your ideas that no amount of logic will work.

And such stance is the reason why Hindu nationalists are routinely hit for a six.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by svenkat »

del
Last edited by svenkat on 22 Nov 2014 12:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by JE Menon »

>>which in the case of Buddha was the prevailing practices of the religion he was born in.

Which brings us back to the question of why it was a "revolt" when the Buddha did it, and not when hundreds of others in the land at the time doing similar things, articulating similar views, etc. was not considered a "revolt", but just another point of view. Mahavir Jain is a successful example, but the land was supposedly teeming with such people, as it still is. Both were successful derivatives from the ritualised faith systems of the time. There is nothing in either, as far as I know, which is entirely unique to it, except in emphasis. In my opinion to use the word "revolt" for what the Buddha did is entirely incorrect. As far as I know, the Buddha never said "Hinduism" is bad or "Sanatana Dharmam" is bad - and was only critical of aspects of it.

Anyway, I suspect this is OT
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by SanjayC »

Buddha's philosophy was a revolt against traditional hinduism -- this is an argument pulled from the backside of British missionaries.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by shiv »

SanjayC wrote:Buddha's philosophy was a revolt against traditional hinduism -- this is an argument pulled from the backside of British missionaries.
-and loaded straight into the heads of colonized minds
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by Pulikeshi »

peter wrote: Please visit the local hindu temple in your area and ask them to show you the proof.
Clearly shows you have not been to them local or many temples...
Dis is only a bluff ye're makin' - see! Ye're talkin' tru ere hat!
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by shiv »

JEM. Rajesh etc.

Click on the link below. The image is of a bell

http://uhs.ucfsd.org/images/bell.png

I am sure you have come across bells before. You can stand in front of a bell for a long time and it won't make a sound. But you strike the bell once, and it rings once. The bell rings as many times as you strike it. You are ringing the bell.

If you stop striking the bell it will stop ringing, because it does not have the capacity to do anything but react to your action. If the bell rings too often, it's because you keep striking it. Bells don't converse. They ring when struck and stop when you stop striking them, bar a ringing sound in the ears that might last a while.

Just thought you might want to know.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by Pulikeshi »

peter wrote: Aryavrat has been defined by many Sanskrit texts please read them. Me claiming to be "arya" is a bit different then whether "aryas" consider me an arya or not. Iranians under zoroaster had a schism with vedic aryans and considered themselves "the arya". Though the indic aryas did not accept the iranians to be aryas.
I have had similar arguments with Pakis on Malsi and who is and isn't a follower...
This says more about you than it does about reality :P
peter wrote: These farflung places were not aryavrat and the key to identify how this worked is through marriages. In Indian kingdoms a kings son had to be from a mother who was the same group as the father.
So said not Satyakama Jabali in blinding darkness! Ko aham?
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:http://uhs.ucfsd.org/images/bell.png

If you stop striking the bell it will stop ringing, because it does not have the capacity to do anything but react to your action. If the bell rings too often, it's because you keep striking it. Bells don't converse. They ring when struck and stop when you stop striking them, bar a ringing sound in the ears that might last a while.

Just thought you might want to know.
shiv saar,

that bell you point to is pretty much without melody, the sound it makes is hardly that pleasant, but then sometimes one rings the bell often, so that passersby too find out that there is a temple there, and they may consider checking it out!
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by Pulikeshi »

If "Hindu Nationalism" is really "Sanathana Dharmic Deshabiman" --> whatever that means!
1) will anyone understand what it is? 2) speak of it in a pejorative sense? :mrgreen:

The irony is "Hindu" is a made up word and "Nationalism" has Western reservations. These two situations is fodder to the chatterati class in Indian media. Another is that the modernist approach, "Nationalism" is post religion and royalty, and has become tainted with Nazi and other ethno-fascist ideologies. Whereas "Patriotism" does not suffer from similar accidents of history and thus considered non-pejorative. Finally, if one has to owe allegiance to anything, the valid question to ask is if that ought to be to state, religion or civilization? In this sense "Hindu Nationalism" could be taken to mean allegiance to a religion and subsequently to the state. Then again, can ones allegiance be quantified in such simplistic boolean logic?
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by RajeshA »

peter wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Because Islam and Christianity are religions. There is an issue of oath of allegiance or oath of submission. One chooses a particular exclusive path of salvation, but more importantly one chooses a form of brotherhood, a group identity. One cannot have multiple allegiances.
Please travel to western europe and other western countries to understand that your statement is a gross generalization and patently false.
bhai, Bweston Oirope men to rehte hain!

peter ji,

strange that you forgot to react to this part
RajeshA wrote:What I read is:
आमेर का राजा जयसिंह उन हिंदूऔं में से था जो पूजा-पाठ को ही धर्म मानते थे तथा राष्ट्र-सेवा के धर्म को भूला कर विदेशी हमलावरों का साथ देने का घोर पाप-कर्म कर रहे थे।
Translation: King of Amber, Raja Jai Singh was one of those Hindus who believed in "Dharma of Puja-Paath" but having forgotten the "Dharma of service to Rāshtra", he committed the grave sin of allying with foreign invaders.

So what is Hinduism Religion here: the "Hindu Dharma of Puja-Paath" or the "Hindu Dharma of Rāshtra-service"? Or can it be that "Dharma ≠ Religion"?

Here is what I wrote about "what is Hindu Dharma?"
let me try to understand your thinking, and you can tell me, if I am making a mistake
  1. You think, that Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Shintoism, ... etc. are all what we call "Religions"! That is how the world is distributed. Everybody has one religion, or has none, and some may dabble in multiple religions for interest sake!
  2. You think, that Hinduism is very much a Religion.
  3. You think, that due to being a Religion, Hinduism is at par with other Religions like Christianity and Islam.
  4. You think, that our Religion, i.e. Hinduism gives us strength, and the our stalwarts made war against Islamic Invaders due to their love for Hinduism Religion.
  5. You think, that questioning Hinduism as a Religion, is questioning the faith of all those who fought for Hinduism.
  6. You think, that questioning Hinduism as a Religion, is questioning the claim of equality that Hinduism has wr.r.t. other Religions like Christianity and Islam, which is perhaps what Marxists do to disparage Hinduism.
  7. You think, that questioning Hinduism as a Religion, is an attack on our sense of belonging together, our unity and our cohesion.
  8. You think, that Hindu Dharma, or even Sanatana Dharma, is a synonym for Hinduism Religion.
Please let me know if I am making a false assumption!
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by govardhanks »

peter wrote: Does he even know that a hindu temple cannot be consecrated unless it has an image of a male and female making out?
Peter sahab, it is old rule no one follows it now a days, for a temple to last really long there are many things which are done which I don't want to tell. :)

Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha are four parts of Dharmic teachings, forget temples, without the experience of marriage and the life with a women one loves, he cannot be eligible for moksha sadhana, and also for many hindu rituals.

Regarding naked statues making out-- my grands told me that,
1. kama — lust
2. krodha — anger
3. lobh — greed
4. moha — delusory emotional attachment or temptation
5. mada or ahankara — pride, hubris
6. matsarya — envy, jealousy
http://www.hindu-blog.com/2007/02/why-d ... e-sex.html
will always hinder every part of human life, they rule our mind. It is never possible to win against them for even gods themselves were lost to it, it became necessary evil of human life. (But the key part is what God Shiva told his son " If you win one of them, you can win other five easily converse is also if you loose to one of them you will become susceptible to other five" well I don't want to go any further here).

So, the sculptures who were building the temples, wanted it to last long for centuries, but how to defy death god, who sets death and destruction time for everything ever created. They created naked statues outside the temples, so beautiful to tempt all people who pass by them, which is believed to even tempt gods and demons so that they forget what they came for. Not only in temples, if you go by some old south Indy houses, you will find statues of naked women holding lamps, statues of naked forest people. In other words, it works like feng shui equipment to ward off negative elements.
If you go by this rule you might even see all arishadvargas(above six things listed) to be exemplified outside temple region, the grand rituals, gold and food donations, fights, ... they are all kept outside temples not inside.

Don't go by any other things, for you will always find those statues outside temples not inside(my proof for you..), for example Hampi Virupaksha temple, left side of the main entrance, main gopuram just climb the hill , you will see those statues.
Hope I made it clear!
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

Pulikeshi wrote:
peter wrote: Please visit the local hindu temple in your area and ask them to show you the proof.
Clearly shows you have not been to them local or many temples...
Dis is only a bluff ye're makin' - see! Ye're talkin' tru ere hat!
Nah. Please do make an effort to research. No point in making silly statements.
Here is a start and obviously many more references:
Hindu temples
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

JE Menon wrote:>>which in the case of Buddha was the prevailing practices of the religion he was born in.

Which brings us back to the question of why it was a "revolt" when the Buddha did it, and not when hundreds of others in the land at the time doing similar things, articulating similar views, etc. was not considered a "revolt", but just another point of view. Mahavir Jain is a successful example, but the land was supposedly teeming with such people, as it still is. Both were successful derivatives from the ritualised faith systems of the time. There is nothing in either, as far as I know, which is entirely unique to it, except in emphasis. In my opinion to use the word "revolt" for what the Buddha did is entirely incorrect. As far as I know, the Buddha never said "Hinduism" is bad or "Sanatana Dharmam" is bad - and was only critical of aspects of it.

Anyway, I suspect this is OT
You do raise some good points and I will get to them a bit later but do read this:
Once a brahman asked him what he thought of the claim that the authors of the Vedas had direct experience of the divine. The Buddha replied, ‘What do you think about this? Is there one brahman who says, “I know. I see. This alone is true, all else is false”’?
‘No Gotama.’
‘Did any of the teachers of the brahmans or even their teachers going back through seven generations ever say that’?
‘No Gotama.’
‘Then what of ancient brahman sages who composed the Vedic hymns, who chanted, uttered and compiled them and which the brahmans of today still chant and recite, just repeating what has been repeated and chanting what has been chanted? Did they ever say “We know. We see. This alone is true, all else is false”’?
‘No Gotama. They did not.’
‘Imagine a string of blind men each touching the other. The first one does not see, the middle one does not see and neither does the last. The claim of the brahmans is like this. The first one does not see, the middle one does not see and neither does the last. So it seems that the faith of the brahmans turns out to be groundless.’ (M.II,169-70).
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by govardhanks »

Shiv sir, How/What and who speaks of "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sense? is also important.

It is very easy for we(H nationalists) have a tendency in ourselves to keep the minorities on our head, so where ever they put the torch we go in that direction.
"When there is a open statement given to slaughter Hindus nothing was done(that fellow is a member of parliament/assembly), what will they do if we speak anything we wish"
In other words non-active, immobile, un-united Hindus, what will they do? nothing take it for granted.

Whom are we appeasing, whom are we pleading, all futile cycles, imbibed in our brains from childhood to be susceptible. When they become united, then plan B divide them, based on their history and atrocities committed against each other some where at some point.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

Pulikeshi wrote:
peter wrote: Aryavrat has been defined by many Sanskrit texts please read them. Me claiming to be "arya" is a bit different then whether "aryas" consider me an arya or not. Iranians under zoroaster had a schism with vedic aryans and considered themselves "the arya". Though the indic aryas did not accept the iranians to be aryas.
I have had similar arguments with Pakis on Malsi and who is and isn't a follower...
This says more about you than it does about reality :P
You did not understand. Any groups claims cannot be accepted as true merely because they are saying so.
Pulikeshi wrote:
peter wrote: These farflung places were not aryavrat and the key to identify how this worked is through marriages. In Indian kingdoms a kings son had to be from a mother who was the same group as the father.
So said not Satyakama Jabali in blinding darkness! Ko aham?
Again confused! The point here is not about original aryavrat but many centuries later when Hinduism went beyond the shores of aryavrat the "new people" were mostly shudras. Initially in these new lands the kings and priests were from the mother ship.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

RajeshA wrote:Because Islam and Christianity are religions. There is an issue of oath of allegiance or oath of submission. One chooses a particular exclusive path of salvation, but more importantly one chooses a form of brotherhood, a group identity. One cannot have multiple allegiances.
One actually can. Please see this: Kafirs
Tribes of Kafir kindred, subdued and converted by the Mahometans in comparatively recent times are known as Nimcha, or " half-and-half." Many of these are on good terms with the Kafirs, and trade is carried on through their mediation. A most interesting account by Lieutenant-Colonel Tanner, of some tribes of this class, will be found in the Proc. Roy. Geog. Soc. quoted below.
RajeshA wrote:
peter wrote: Please travel to western europe and other western countries to understand that your statement is a gross generalization and patently false.
bhai, Bweston Oirope men to rehte hain!
Sorry what does this mean?
RajeshA wrote: peter ji,

strange that you forgot to react to this part
RajeshA wrote:What I read is:
आमेर का राजा जयसिंह उन हिंदूऔं में से था जो पूजा-पाठ को ही धर्म मानते थे तथा राष्ट्र-सेवा के धर्म को भूला कर विदेशी हमलावरों का साथ देने का घोर पाप-कर्म कर रहे थे।
Translation: King of Amber, Raja Jai Singh was one of those Hindus who believed in "Dharma of Puja-Paath" but having forgotten the "Dharma of service to Rāshtra", he committed the grave sin of allying with foreign invaders.

So what is Hinduism Religion here: the "Hindu Dharma of Puja-Paath" or the "Hindu Dharma of Rāshtra-service"? Or can it be that "Dharma ≠ Religion"?
I deliberately did not write anything on your hindi extract because every hindu king of medieval India पूजा-पाठ को ही धर्म मानते थे ! Please look at their palaces. If you ever visit Bundi in rajasthan and do see the Badal Mahal of Haras you will see beautiful paintings of Krishna and his life. Similar themes in many other palaces throught the area. You can also read about how elaborate the pooja paaths that these kings did in various documents that have survived.
RajeshA wrote: let me try to understand your thinking, and you can tell me, if I am making a mistake
Will respond to your list a little later.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by peter »

govardhan wrote:
peter wrote: Does he even know that a hindu temple cannot be consecrated unless it has an image of a male and female making out?
Peter sahab, it is old rule no one follows it now a days, for a temple to last really long there are many things which are done which I don't want to tell. :)

Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha are four parts of Dharmic teachings, forget temples, without the experience of marriage and the life with a women one loves, he cannot be eligible for moksha sadhana, and also for many hindu rituals.

Regarding naked statues making out-- my grands told me that,
1. kama — lust
2. krodha — anger
3. lobh — greed
4. moha — delusory emotional attachment or temptation
5. mada or ahankara — pride, hubris
6. matsarya — envy, jealousy
http://www.hindu-blog.com/2007/02/why-d ... e-sex.html
will always hinder every part of human life, they rule our mind. It is never possible to win against them for even gods themselves were lost to it, it became necessary evil of human life. (But the key part is what God Shiva told his son " If you win one of them, you can win other five easily converse is also if you loose to one of them you will become susceptible to other five" well I don't want to go any further here).

So, the sculptures who were building the temples, wanted it to last long for centuries, but how to defy death god, who sets death and destruction time for everything ever created. They created naked statues outside the temples, so beautiful to tempt all people who pass by them, which is believed to even tempt gods and demons so that they forget what they came for. Not only in temples, if you go by some old south Indy houses, you will find statues of naked women holding lamps, statues of naked forest people. In other words, it works like feng shui equipment to ward off negative elements.
If you go by this rule you might even see all arishadvargas(above six things listed) to be exemplified outside temple region, the grand rituals, gold and food donations, fights, ... they are all kept outside temples not inside.

Don't go by any other things, for you will always find those statues outside temples not inside(my proof for you..), for example Hampi Virupaksha temple, left side of the main entrance, main gopuram just climb the hill , you will see those statues.
Hope I made it clear!
Nowadays they hide the "picture" so that it is not easily visible. But if you push the priest they will show you! Yours is an interesting thesis but I have seen temples having these pictures/sculptures inside the main temple.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ शक्रो देवानं इन्द्रः - Indra, as Shakra, is "the guardian of Buddhism" (in modern lingo). This is not a "revolt against", but an appropriation and re-purposing of the Vedic cosmology.
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Re: Why is "Hindu Nationalism" spoken of in a pejorative sen

Post by A_Gupta »

likewise:
MN 101: Devadaha Sutta — At Devadaha {M ii 214} [Thanissaro].
The Buddha refutes a Jain theory of kamma, which claims that one's present experience is determined solely by one's actions in past lives, and that the effects of past unskillful actions can be "burned away" through austerity practices. The Buddha here outlines one of his most important teachings on kamma: that it is both the results of past deeds and present actions that shape one's experience of the present. It is precisely this interaction of present and past that opens up the very possibility of Awakening.
This is a refutation of a Jain theory, not a "revolt against a Jain theory". Only reason you can use the word "revolt" is (a) Westerners taught you so; and (b) You imagine that the astikas somehow were the "oppressive majority" against whom one had to revolt.

If we take ShauryaT's reading of Puranas (see previously in the thread), then Krishna lifting Govardhan is the folk-tale refutation of supremacy of the Vedic devas, specifically Indra; likewise when Krishna says in the Gita that for the enlightened person, Vedas are as useful as a well during a flood, he is devaluing the Vedas. Similarly, we see Shaivite vs. Vedic, Shaivite vs. Vaishnavite, etc., etc. It is echoed in the modern Arya Samaj, where Swami Dayananda Saraswati in Satyartha Prakash proclaims that Pauranic Hinduism and Sikhism are all wrong or misguided (as also Islam, Christianity, etc.). None of these can be termed "revolts".

If you are so ideologically guided, then tomorrow you will see Hubble, Narlikar's steady-state theory of cosmology as a "revolt" against the big bang theory.
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