INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Dec 2014 00:18

It may be recalled that Russia, which has so far lent two nuclear (SSN) boats to India - there was an earlier INS Chakra in the 1980s also - has helped in building the miniature nuclear reactor for Arihant. However, the reactor of Arihant is considered slightly underpowered, and the following boats should have more powerful reactors going up to 100 mw.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... Trials.htm

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Dec 2014 01:26

@kalpakkam, we will soon reach homi bhabha's 3rd stage wish, ie, gearing towards high use of Th based reactors. the AHWR is getting into good shape.. I think in parallel we need to engage a bunch of BARCers to begin working on miniaturizing the AHWRs. Now, that would not only put us in total NFU, but can make all surface vehicles - ACs, subs, using the futuristic design for all purpose, use. Now, it is also going to be extremely dangerous mission to build one for subs. but, if we do it, then even the P5 will shibber!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Dec 2014 07:32

symontk wrote:Cream colored has water inside and simulates the high pressure scenario a reactor and hull usually needs to operate

Are you sure that Water (heavy or light or pressurised) is used as coolant? That will eat a lot of space in the sub. Liquid metal is used as a coolant for sub reactors. IMHO. Open for education.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 26 Dec 2014 08:36

SaiK wrote:@kalpakkam, we will soon reach homi bhabha's 3rd stage wish, ie, gearing towards high use of Th based reactors. the AHWR is getting into good shape.. I think in parallel we need to engage a bunch of BARCers to begin working on miniaturizing the AHWRs. Now, that would not only put us in total NFU, but can make all surface vehicles - ACs, subs, using the futuristic design for all purpose, use. Now, it is also going to be extremely dangerous mission to build one for subs. but, if we do it, then even the P5 will shibber!

On another thread, I indicated that Putin's recent 30 billion nuclear deal will kill our thorium fast breeder project. But it was brought to my notice that we have 'given' away our thorium ore (sand). How true is this development - it's hard to ship away so much raw ore...

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 26 Dec 2014 09:29

chackojoseph wrote:
symontk wrote:Cream colored has water inside and simulates the high pressure scenario a reactor and hull usually needs to operate
Are you sure that Water (heavy or light or pressurised) is used as coolant? That will eat a lot of space in the sub. Liquid metal is used as a coolant for sub reactors. IMHO. Open for education.

I was referring to the outside water pressure to the hull, liquid metal is used as per several sources, attached one of them

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/india/sub/ssn/part01.htm

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 26 Dec 2014 09:35

nik wrote: On another thread, I indicated that Putin's recent 30 billion nuclear deal will kill our thorium fast breeder project. But it was brought to my notice that we have 'given' away our thorium ore (sand). How true is this development - it's hard to ship away so much raw ore...

Pure bullshit regarding thorium sands, Kerala's Thorium sands are not at all mined (except for few experimental ones). Mining only happens in Tamilnadu which is send to Japan since it used in several other precision industries which they need for electronics. This export is there for many years starting from 1970's

Why i mentioned Kerala is because, it was German scientists who discovered Thorium attached to the coir strands send from Alleppey in the early 20th century. British intelligence smelled it quickly to prevent the sand export

Also the beach sands are not the actual source of Thorium, the sea gets it from the rivers and the rivers get it from the Western Ghats

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Dec 2014 10:01

symontk wrote:I was referring to the outside water pressure to the hull, liquid metal is used as per several sources, attached one of them

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/india/sub/ssn/part01.htm

Ok you are saying that the core is subjected to pressure for realtime scenario. You are not referring to the coolant.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Dec 2014 10:54

Could also be used to give real sea kind of environment , how the sub will behave when under water

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 26 Dec 2014 13:11

krishnan wrote:Could also be used to give real sea kind of environment , how the sub will behave when under water

Yes it is important since I think like IAC the steel used in NSUB is from India, added to that it can be the test bed for checking out effectiveness of tiles etc, water ingress during emergencies etc

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 26 Dec 2014 13:20

symontk wrote:
nik wrote: On another thread, I indicated that Putin's recent 30 billion nuclear deal will kill our thorium fast breeder project. But it was brought to my notice that we have 'given' away our thorium ore (sand). How true is this development - it's hard to ship away so much raw ore...
Pure bullshit regarding thorium sands, Kerala's Thorium sands are not at all mined (except for few experimental ones). Mining only happens in Tamilnadu which is send to Japan since it used in several other precision industries which they need for electronics. This export is there for many years starting from 1970's

Why i mentioned Kerala is because, it was German scientists who discovered Thorium attached to the coir strands send from Alleppey in the early 20th century. British intelligence smelled it quickly to prevent the sand export

Also the beach sands are not the actual source of Thorium, the sea gets it from the rivers and the rivers get it from the Western Ghats

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.in/2012/ ... value.html
http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... the-scene/
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/pm- ... ium-mining
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-839177 (great thorium robbery)
http://transmissionsmedia.com/the-great ... m-robbery/

well what is mined and what is not is out in open.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 26 Dec 2014 13:32

d_berwal wrote:
symontk wrote: Pure bullshit regarding thorium sands, Kerala's Thorium sands are not at all mined (except for few experimental ones). Mining only happens in Tamilnadu which is send to Japan since it used in several other precision industries which they need for electronics. This export is there for many years starting from 1970's

Why i mentioned Kerala is because, it was German scientists who discovered Thorium attached to the coir strands send from Alleppey in the early 20th century. British intelligence smelled it quickly to prevent the sand export

Also the beach sands are not the actual source of Thorium, the sea gets it from the rivers and the rivers get it from the Western Ghats
http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.in/2012/ ... value.html
http://janamejayan.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... the-scene/
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/pm- ... ium-mining
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-839177 (great thorium robbery)
http://transmissionsmedia.com/the-great ... m-robbery/

well what is mined and what is not is out in open.

I would love to be corrected, but thru which port all these sands went thru from Kerala? Cochin port? normally that port is having 365 day strike and issues and you are saying this much volume of sand was exported thru the same port?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Dec 2014 13:57

Or the sand was mined by the sand mafia and used in turn for construction activities.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Dec 2014 13:57

That report is unverified by CNN. Sunday Guardian is a mouth piece (I am not saying it does not feature credible report sometimes). Rest seem to some blogspots.

Nothing is verified. Thorium is not getting robbed. AFIK, there is some kind of safeguards by the DAE or some agencies. The reports are incorrect.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 26 Dec 2014 14:17

^^ well lets have few more on thorium robbery report

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 278985.cms
http://www.dailypioneer.com/home/online ... lgate.html
http://dailypioneer.com/nation/105259-s ... laims.html
http://www.firstpost.com/india/after-co ... 41078.html

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Dec 2014 15:08

As per one original report (others are merely repeating), A private contractor was given sand mining rights and he is supposed to return the monazite to the government. The contractor in question VV Mineral, does not has the technology to separate thorium from the mineral. It extracts garnet and ilmenite and exports. So no Monazite is exported. The whole problem is about safe disposal of material. There is very less to suggest that the sand has been given away.

As per Tahelka, Though VV Mineral claims it doesn’t process monazite, it would be automatically generated during the mineral separation process in the form of tailings. AERB recommends that when the quantity of tailings generated is large and the monazite content in the tailings is relatively low (less than 5 percent), the tailings have to be disposed of by mixing with silicarich sand and backfilled at the mined out site. If the monazite content in the tailings is high (more than 5 percent) and the quantity of tailings generated is comparatively less, then it has to be stored in trenches and topped with silica-rich sand to bring it to the background level.

A REPORT by a committee of top district officials constituted by the District Collector of Kanyakumari, Rajendra Ratnoo, has in fact concluded that VV Mineral has been mining without proper regulatory clearance and has been involved in mineral separation, a process that emits high radiation, without fulfilling AERB norms. “Based on the report, we stopped issuing permits to the company. However, they have challenged the matter in the High Court,” says Ratnoo. The committee, which included the assistant director of mines, tehsildars of Vilavancode and Kalkulam and Revenue Division Officer (RDO) Padmanabhapuram, found out that the company has no plan for the safe and scientific disposal of waste from the mineral separation facilities.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 26 Dec 2014 15:29

Its unfortunate that back in UPA days anything and everything was a scam consequently presstitutes would jump in for trps and misled many people. Credibility of press has gone to dogs in this country, anything can be twisted for trps.

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/standp ... am-1982959

Read the above article which reports the real issue and people don't worry there are certain areas which are guarded and no chances are taken in protecting these strategic assets. If you want to know how we protect our strategic assets then you have read Henry Kissinger works on Indian nuclear activities.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Dec 2014 15:48

As per thelka, there was no sand exported. DNA probably got it wrong and is quoting another news source, which is the original source. Only tahelka seems to have got this story in a fashion which shows one perspective. The DNA analysis part is making sense. The quantum of thorium claimed to be exported is mind boggling and it actually misleading. secondly, it furthers thelka's report and says that Monazite is stored.

In my opinion, the entire loss of thorium report is incorrect.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 26 Dec 2014 15:58

Some of the links quoted above like bharathkalyan97 or janmejay are well known extreme right wing blogs they are known for creating storm in the tea cup.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Dec 2014 17:25

Some interesting details about alleged attempts to sabotage our SSBN development by western nations in this report.
http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/12/20/ari ... 40451.html

Arihant stirs up the ocean

December 20, 2014 Rakesh Krishnan Simha
India’s first nuclear powered submarine will allow it a credible second strike option and keep out adventurists from its waters.

Related
• India to lease second Russian nuclear submarine — media
• Russia offers to help repair India’s Kilo class submarines
• Russia prepared to modify submarines for Indian tender
New energy, new horizons: India-Russia ties moving into higher orbit

Here’s how to raise Russia-India relations to a new level
Taming the Babus: biggest challenge for Modi and Putin
Goa liberation: How Russia vetoed the West

Arihant stirs up the ocean
The first clear image of INS Arihant, taken by NDTV. Photo: NDTV snapshot

In June 2012 a nuclear-powered attack submarine of the Russian Navy quietly entered the Gulf of Mexico. Armed with long-range nuclear cruise missiles, the Akula class vessel operated undetected for several weeks and its movement in strategic US waters was only confirmed after it left the area. The silent Akula left a lot of red faces in the American defence establishment in its wake.

In November 2013 Russia launched its advanced stealth diesel-electric Novorossiysk. The Project 636 submarine is said to be virtually undetectable when submerged. “Our potential opponents call it the ‘Black Hole’ due to the very low noise emission and visibility of the submarine,” Konstantin Tabachny, the captain of the Novorossiysk, told the media. “To be undetectable is the main quality for a submarine. And this whole project really fits its purpose.”

пустым не оставлять!!
Alexander Nevsky submarine set to protect Russia

Considering that the Russian scientists and experts behind these stealthy subs played a key role in the development of the Arihant, India’s first SSBN (ship submersible, ballistic missile, nuclear powered) submarine promises to be a potent vessel.

After decades of development, the 367 ft – as long as 10 buses parked end to end – Arihant was finally launched on December 15. It is a measure of how jealously India guards its strategic submarine that when the jet black beauty sailed out of the naval dockyard in Visakhapatnam, the Indian Navy and Indian Air Force deployed their MiG-29K and Su-30 MKI combat jets around the harbour while the Poseidon P-8I maritime surveillance and attack aircraft from the nearby naval base at Arakkonam sanitised the area for any hostile underwater activity. Further, reports India Strategic warships from the Eastern Command provided protective cover.

The excitement in India’s defence establishment is understandable. Like the BrahMos, the Arihant is a rare example of a successful strategic weapon made from scratch within the country. The 6000 tonne submarine will take India to an elite league. According to Richard Sharpe of Jane's Fighting Ships, a nuclear submarine will give India a "colossal advantage" over its neighbours. “Facing a nuclear submarine is a nightmare; it has unlimited endurance and mobility and there's no place for a surface ship to hide,” he writes.

Until now India has blissfully carried on without a credible second strike option. This means if China – or for that matter any other country – launches a surprise first strike and decapitates the country’s land based nuclear missiles and its nuclear armed aircraft, there’s very little India can do except throw in the towel.

Having an SSBN changes the equation. It guarantees a nuclear first strike will not destroy India’s ability to strike back. Lurking at the bottom of the oceans and constantly moving, even a handful of SSBNs can sow doubt in the enemy’s mind that some of India’s sea-launched strategic missiles will be launched in retaliation. The planned fleet of five Arihant class SSBNs will thus complete India’s strategic triad, giving the country’s military the second strike option.

The first Arihant class submarine will carry 12 K-15 ballistic nuclear missiles that can be launched even under ice caps. Tested in 2008, the K-15 will be armed with a nuclear warhead that can be targeted at a distance of 750 km. The low range means the sub will have to venture close to enemy waters before launch. However, a 3,500 km range missile is already in development.

India’s quest for strategic parity with the leading nuclear powers began as early as the 1950s. As noted by Eric Arnett, a researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, “The history and implications of (nuclear powered submarines) for Indian maritime strategy suggest that the US presence in the Indian Ocean was a stronger motivation for the programme.”

The approval of the construction of an SSBN dates back to 1970, but as is usual with Indian defence projects, nothing came off it. The project was revived in 1985 and in 1989 DRDO sought design assistance from former engineers and defence workers of the former Soviet Union. Several Russian naval engineers have been in India since 1991.

By 1996, when India had spent $285.7 million on the nuclear submarine, work on the project came to a crawl because of pressure from the US. The Federation of American Scientists says ASEAN also wanted India to stop work on the ATV as a condition for entry into ASEAN and for India to be invited to future Asia-Europe summits. The European Union was behind the demands put up by ASEAN.

The Russians soon understood the US game plan. By stopping Moscow from selling key technologies to India, the Americans managed to starve Russian industry of much needed funds while at the same time it placed major roadblocks in India’s ability to develop strategic weapons. This not only had the effect of creating a rift between Russia and India, it also allowed the Americans a foot in the door in India’s defence market.

However, with the exit of the pro-American elements from the Kremlin, Russians came back in full strength. While Russian designers assisted in building the vessel, which is based on the Akula class hunter killer submarine, its nuclear-powered 80MW pressurised water reactor was developed by the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre with assistance from a design team from Rubin, the Russian submarine-design bureau.

Although the reactor was “designed, fabricated and executed in India” by Indian industry and under the direction of Indian scientists, the chairman of India’s Atomic Energy Commission, Dr Anil Kakodkar, told the media in 2009: “I would also like to thank our Russian colleagues. They have played a very important role as consultants, they have a lot of experience in this so their consultancy has been of great help so that I think we should acknowledge.”

Russia offers to help repair India’s Kilo class submarines

In fact, Russia's contribution has been acknowledged by the Government on a number of occasions, including in 2009 by former prime minister Manmohan Singh. The Russians also helped in building the naval base in Visakhapatnam, where a section of the officers’ mess is named Kremlin.

Russia helped with another significant aspect – crew training. Even as the Arihant’s development was plodding along, India prepared for operating an SSBN by leasing a Charlie class nuclear-powered submarine Chakra from Russia in January 1988. However, bowing to pressure from the US, Moscow refused to extend the lease and the sub returned to Vladivostok in January 1991.

The crew of Arihant is being trained on a brand new 12,000 tonne Akula-II Class submarine. Leased from Russia for 10 years in 2011, the submarine is also named Chakra.

In the 1971 India-Pakistan war, as the Indian Army was thundering down the road to Lahore (?He probably meant Dacca), the US and British fleets made a threatening pincer against India. While the US Seventh Fleet from Southeast Asia sailed towards Calcutta, a British flotilla from Madagascar steamed towards western India. The Indian Air Force was on alert after receiving intelligence that American warplanes might attack the Indian Army’s communications in the west. However, the Soviet Pacific Fleet sailed into the Indian Ocean and threw a cordon around India, forcing the American and British warships to retreat.

Once a fleet of Arihant boomers start patrolling the waters around India, India can ensure no foreign navy will threaten it again.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 26 Dec 2014 18:22

@ ravip @chackojoseph

Tahelka a known congress mouth piece is acceptable and credible and others are right-wing so not acceptable ?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Dec 2014 18:27

That is fair point. What about DNA?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 26 Dec 2014 18:54

@ chacko

what about timesofindia and firstpost?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Dec 2014 18:57

The sand mining issue is irrelevant to this thread. Take it elsewhere.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Dec 2014 19:04

d_berwal wrote:@ chacko

what about timesofindia and firstpost?

First post is referring to Statesman. TOI does not clear what paper they have. They just said that there is a mining lease or report. Rest is hot air.

Fair enough SSridhar. Since there is nothing to talk about it until something concrete is shown.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 26 Dec 2014 21:35

d_berwal wrote:@ ravip @chackojoseph

Tahelka a known congress mouth piece is acceptable and credible and others are right-wing so not acceptable ?

I was speaking of these two blogs (bharathkalyan97 or janmejay) and not of any newspaper agencies. I am entitled to my view seeing the extreme, unreasonable and unsubstantiated allegations made there in.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Dec 2014 18:49

BK: Arihant Bigger and More Powerful

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 29 Dec 2014 19:46

SaiK wrote:a well known signature to the world may not be the well known signature for real-times!

a noise generator module is enough

Do you have a reference for such a device or for that matter a read up on its utility? I cannot find one.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 29 Dec 2014 19:50

harbans wrote:BK: Arihant Bigger and More Powerful

Contrary to other reports he is saying Arihant to have 110 MW reactor !

-Ankit

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 29 Dec 2014 20:02

With all due respect to him, he also said it underwent crushing depth tests, he mixes a lot of facts, fictions and imaginations etc

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 29 Dec 2014 20:15

Well BK maybe right!!

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 29 Dec 2014 20:33

Lisa wrote:
SaiK wrote:a well known signature to the world may not be the well known signature for real-times!

a noise generator module is enough
Do you have a reference for such a device or for that matter a read up on its utility? I cannot find one.

That was a Saikiatry experiment SaiK ji, tried. To see who falls for it.

Who would like to create more noise if the rationale is to be silent. They would rather dive and stay still in some inaccessible place.

Only way noise generators would find use, is when they have active noise cancellation devices with real time adjustments. You find that, I want two. Anything to keep my kids under control. Probably one for SHQ too.

But seriously noise cancellation most likely would not work in subs. Too many places the noise would get made, too much metal involved for the noises not to travel with high fidelity and then too much of interaction with too much of fluids making everything unpredictable. If they had noise cancellation then USN would use just one sub to darao-dhamkao everybody on the planet. Besides what if they force the subject sub into unforeseen evasion tactics. If anything fails then the noise generator would become a beckon.

Noise suppression OTOH, is an entirely different matter. But then that does not works with kids and SHQ. Lets see of Saik ji differs?

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 29 Dec 2014 21:51

ravi_g wrote:
....

Only way noise generators would find use, is when they have active noise cancellation devices with real time adjustments.

...

Huh? Why active noise cancellation devices?

A louder noise will mask / obscure the lower noise. The noise generator has been doing this job since WWII. They generate louder noise to obfuscate the more softer noises made by the submarine. Consider them analogous to chaff/flares on aircraft.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 29 Dec 2014 22:11

ravi_g,

Makes sense. Spoke with sub hunters, none had ever come across the idea thus my request.

Anyway, thanks.

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 29 Dec 2014 23:18

Lisa wrote:ravi_g,

Makes sense. Spoke with sub hunters, none had ever come across the idea thus my request.

Anyway, thanks.

Decoys and Obscurants

From DRDO

Decoys & Targets

The submarine under the threat of an attack from a torpedo uses several evasive methods to get away from the attack. One such evasive method is to fire an expendable decoy which is an electronic and acoustic countermeasure against the active-passive torpedo. Decoys have been developed that are housed in a small FRP shell and use lithium-sulphide batteries. These decoys can be ejected through a cartridge. The acoustic system with transducers creates acoustic noise mimicking that of a submarine and decoys the attacking torpedo. The buoyancy of the decoy is critically controlled for slow descent rate. Signal design is implemented to decoy either passive or active homing system. Targets, mobile and static, are generally needed for training the sonar operators and ASW crew in practising torpedo firings. The targets imitate and simulate the submarine acoustically. The targets generate broadband frequencies from very low to high frequencies. Several target parameters can be set to include target strength, pulse-length, Doppler shift, and raDIATed nose level. A static target called versatile acoustic target (VAT) has been developed and extensively used in the evaluation of torpedoes and mobile target called programmable deep mobile target (PDMT).

Versatile Acoustic Target No. 16:

Rafael Scutter Expandable Torpedo Decoy

On receipt of a torpedo alert, SCUTTER is launched from the Submarine Signal Ejector (SSE) or external launchers. The system is automatically activated after launch, propelling itself autonomously to its operating position.

Sonar Decoys

Submerged U-boats employed several devices to evade allied pursuers equipped with sonar. These consisted of decoys which resembled a submerged submarine and noise-makers to blackout the pursuer’s listening device.

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 30 Dec 2014 00:39

Hahaha! Indians use the terminology "pill marta hai" or "that guy is a real piller" without realizing that this is a hold over from WW2 and the pillenwerfer decoy that U-boats used,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bold_%28decoy%29

So next time some of you pill on the forum we know(literally gas producer)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Dec 2014 06:13

vsunder wrote:Hahaha! Indians use the terminology "pill marta hai" or "that guy is a real piller" without realizing that this is a hold over from WW2 and the pillenwerfer decoy that U-boats used,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bold_%28decoy%29

So next time some of you pill on the forum we know(literally gas producer)

LOL Thanks for reminding me of that word - we used to use that in school - "He's pilling"

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Dec 2014 10:19

The latest torpedoes have aeons of time in which to continue to circle and circle a target until they make contact/explode in close proximity. Decoys just delay the inevitable.The only reliable cure is a hard kill torpedo/munitions.The ranges too are so great that the sub that fires the first shot/s can scoot out of range of counterattack.Sub launched UUVs guiding torpedoes towards their targets are not beyond the realm of fantasy.

kit · Post by **kit** » 30 Dec 2014 10:39

Isn't pump jet propulsion quieter than conventional skewed propellers ?

member_28640 · Post by **member_28640** » 30 Dec 2014 11:42

fanne wrote:Well BK maybe right!!

Like other systems nuclear reactors too have a peak and normal power.. looks like BK is getting confused between the two.. Steady state power would be 80MW and peak power would be 110MW..
Maybe wiser gurus with experience would be kind enough to elucidate that desi engineers would keep a gap of 30 MW between peak and max load? Is it a problem in our metallurgy ,coolants etc etc ?

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 30 Dec 2014 11:46

Like missiles torpedoes don't have IFF either... and like missiles they self-destruct when they fail to re-acquire their targets after having lost them to decoys.

This is a safety measure to ensure they don't inadvertently target friendlies in the area, or even more unluckily the launching platform itself!

There may be some work going in that direction to make them smarter, but you could counter loitering torpedoes by releasing timed decoys, so that one takes over after the first one has stopped, and so on. Loitering decoys laying a false trail if you will, much easier to achieve IMHO.

You don't have to stop there? You could develop a series of smart decoys leading an acoustic trail back to the launching platform!