India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2015 00:20

HKumar wrote:
d_berwal wrote:sounding more like CJ....

The new DM was is just taking charge and shaping things for future, why you wanna support contract culture at this level.

as per your logic VK should be made Cheif on Contract?

is that the new label for ad hominem attacks now? calling somebody CJ - why because people are not willing to believe bat-shit crazy theories? so whats next all senior contract level employees are gone - with their termination letter on the internet?

exactly. cant come up with sane reasons and out to act as determiners of patriotism and correct behavior.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Jan 2015 00:23

Karan M wrote:
ACC is headed by Modi isnt it? This smacks of two sides of the govt making decisions that neither communicates to each other. this was exactly what folks were pointing out when they said jaitley handling MOD and Finance and Modi micromanaging all combines into a possible mess. classic case here. unless they intentionally wanted to humiliate Avinash Chander and I do think NaMo and co are better than that.

And DRDO was headed by AC, no?? he should have understood the consequences when his lab people posed before the chariot. However I doubt that could be cause. The matter must have been under review since August 2014 when Namo ordered a review. He is not known to take decision in a hurry. And I also doubt that AC did not know it coming. He must have seen the tidings but stuck on regardless. I have linked the report in earlier post.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2015 00:24

chaanakya wrote:
Karan M wrote:If you want to not keep the guy because of age, dont give an extension in nov. and then withdraw it in 4 months. its inept handling.
and then for parrikar to say a) hey guys, beats me, saw it on tv and then b ) hey i know about it, it was age!! is just plain weird. left hand, right hand and all that.
It was a UPA decision which gave in situ contract till May 2016 after his extension was to end in Nov 2014. ACC merely reviewed the contract and decided to do away with it. Funny that MMS govt issued such order which is nothing but deviant behaviour of UPA govt. Actually UPA could have given him extension till he died of natural causes or prematurely as well , who cares. He ignored the signal given by PM during speech to DRDO scientists. He could have said that after his extension he would not like to continue on contract and left the choice to Govt. PM objected on appointment being contractual and he did not want to have any in such a sensitive post. That is his call not that of MOD. And I think better not to trust UPA decision.

its all very well to not extend the contract. its the sheer silly manner with which this was done which is inexcusable. dont inform the person in question. leak to the media beforehand (sources in govt, PMO etc). the defence minister first hems and haws (i learnt it from tv), then offers weird excuses (younger guy) ..the entire thing is a fracas. its classic case of left hand not knowing what right hand is doing and chanders name gets dragged through the mud & his org will also feel the pinch. this is shameful anywhich way its done. whether its IA, IAF, DRDO, ISRO, BARC etc, such stuff is not expected from a GOI which came to power saying its different. such keystone kops disrespect was par for the course under antonys dispensation. change was and is expected.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Jan 2015 00:25

I know this hot. There is no point in increasing post and warning counts by merely attacking one another!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Jan 2015 00:28

chaanakya wrote:
Sagar G wrote: Dr. Avinash isn't even in that pic !!!

Did you see PM's Signature in the order that you blame him for??

Sagar G wrote: Aren't you the one who is going all gaa gaa goo goo about Modi doing the right thing and yes I read the news about ACC headed by PM taking the decision.

And you don't know that AC is heading DRDO even now. he should have known abt his Lab activities in MH.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2015 00:28

chaanakya wrote:
Karan M wrote:
ACC is headed by Modi isnt it? This smacks of two sides of the govt making decisions that neither communicates to each other. this was exactly what folks were pointing out when they said jaitley handling MOD and Finance and Modi micromanaging all combines into a possible mess. classic case here. unless they intentionally wanted to humiliate Avinash Chander and I do think NaMo and co are better than that.
And DRDO was headed by AC, no?? he should have understood the consequences when his lab people posed before the chariot. However I doubt that could be cause. The matter must have been under review since August 2014 when Namo ordered a review. He is not known to take decision in a hurry. And I also doubt that AC did not know it coming. He must have seen the tidings but stuck on regardless. I have linked the report in earlier post.

what chariot?? do you seriously believe that rubbish report about that being an issue? major FUD going on from the BJP in the media, and its getting bizarre. from ageism (yeah find a genius in his 40s to head the org), to chariot, to this, to that. anything and everything.

the so called chariot story was broken by the great "secular media" which wanted to tom tom DRDO being a H-organization. and the great H-nationalist BJP will use that as a reason to sack chander?? what happened to that lab head and the folks associated with it, in that case? in short, it was a rubbish report, publicized by the usual gang of indian express origin baiters - aroor etc.

in contrast, chander has been associated with the biggest success engines - DRDL, ASL and RCI. they are where the biggest breakthroughs have been in programs.

if the matter was under review from august where is the famed efficiency of NaMO that it took till jan 15 to do this in such a haphazard manner? why not inform chander that his contract would not be allowed in november 2014 itself?

its not the decision (which is a GOI prerogative) but the sheer inept and clueless manner in which this has been handled. national institutions deserve a bit more care & not just babu driven media leaks.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Jan 2015 00:29

well didn't see the Mod advice if its meant for me.No issues.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 15 Jan 2015 00:32

chaanakya wrote:And you don't know that AC is heading DRDO even now. he should have known abt his Lab activities in MH.

Here comes another insinuation. First prove that he has been sacked because of the chariot case with valid evidence instead of flame baiting. No your posted article doesn't count as valid evidence.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 15 Jan 2015 00:33

Wow, BRF folks fight (ahem... discuss) like republicans and democrats these days. No one willing to budge an inch.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Jan 2015 00:34

Karan M wrote:
chaanakya wrote:
And DRDO was headed by AC, no?? he should have understood the consequences when his lab people posed before the chariot. However I doubt that could be cause. The matter must have been under review since August 2014 when Namo ordered a review. He is not known to take decision in a hurry. And I also doubt that AC did not know it coming. He must have seen the tidings but stuck on regardless. I have linked the report in earlier post.
what chariot?? do you seriously believe that rubbish report about that being an issue? ......

its not the decision (which is a GOI prerogative) but the sheer inept and clueless manner in which this has been handled. national institutions deserve a bit more care & not just babu driven media leaks.

I know and I don't believe that I also think that the whole charade is created by Congi elements and MSM in bed with them. AC is still there till 31st if that is any consolation. I don't know if RTI story is true . If so then the whole issue deserves a quite burial. We will see new Chief in due course and pray to God that DRDO now starts to deliver.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 15 Jan 2015 00:36

Is V K Saraswat appointment to Niti Ayog somehow linked to this? Is AC being sounded for something different (benign interpretation) or was there some rivalry between VKS and AC (as in some fundamental difference, like lets build a 20,000 KM ICBM and both on different pages and AC being different than NAMO govt). Of course it does not take anything away from a non NAMO like execution of the AC removal. Is is hard to imagine AC involved in some unsavory act. There is more to the story that we are missing in all this rona dhona. My 2 cents is govt does not want important position to go to a 'contractor' and they were couple of months late in implementing it with AC.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2015 00:37

matrimc wrote:What is at risk is the morale of scientific establishment. If one needs very talented people to work in DRDO etc. how many self-respecting people would be enthused if they think this is the treatment that would be meted out to them after a life-time of service to the nation, that too under difficult circumstances? It is not like they would not find employment elsewhere. Today's India is not an India of 1970s-80s when there were no too many jobs available nor avenues for doing advanced research.

exactly.

see, DRDO as an org feels constantly targeted by arms traders and the media. the latter have become past experts in taking anonymous sources, and other folks who now front for various companies and use them to target the org. the drdo cant reply because it might create a rift with their primary customers if they counter salvos fired as claims on behalf of the customers citing so and so person said. their PR is also haphazard as OSA comes into picture. in such a milieu, the only silver lining is they "work for national security and the central govt".

political support and the perception of GOI support counts for a lot.

this stuff matters.

by all means let chander go, but do it with dignity without making it a "sacking", and a media controversy and with people spinning it as NaMo led conspiracy to punish him etc etc and create further stink.

add really meandering justifications ipso facto (i didnt know, hey i did know, it was age) and its a shame.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Jan 2015 00:38

Sagar G wrote:
chaanakya wrote:And you don't know that AC is heading DRDO even now. he should have known abt his Lab activities in MH.
Here comes another insinuation. First prove that he has been sacked because of the chariot case with valid evidence instead of flame baiting. No your posted article doesn't count as valid evidence.

I am sure he was not sacked for that but for the Principled Stand that No Contract Employee should serve as DG DRDO or Secy to GOI . His contract was ended in accordance with the terms of the contract that he accepted while continuing after extension. And I also think that individually as a scientist he would be excellent and contributed immensely to Agni etc. And this Khujli is nothing but congressi itch to embarrass NaMo

HKumar · Post by **HKumar** » 15 Jan 2015 00:39

fanne wrote:Is V K Saraswat appointment to Niti Ayog somehow linked to this? Is AC being sounded for something different (benign interpretation) or was there some rivalry between VKS and AC (as in some fundamental difference, like lets build a 20,000 KM ICBM and both on different pages and AC being different than NAMO govt). Of course it does not take anything away from a non NAMO like execution of the AC removal. Is is hard to imagine AC involved in some unsavory act. There is more to the story that we are missing in all this rona dhona. My 2 cents is govt does not want important position to go to a 'contractor' and they were couple of months late in implementing it with AC.

Here we go again........

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 15 Jan 2015 00:43

chaanakya wrote:I am sure he was not sacked for that but for the Principled Stand that No Contract Employee should serve as DG DRDO or Secy to GOI . His contract was ended in accordance with the terms of the contract that he accepted while continuing after extension. And I also think that individually as a scientist he would be excellent and contributed immensely to Agni etc. And this Khujli is nothing but congressi itch to embarrass NaMo

Ending contract is not the issue but the way it has been done which is humiliating. Modi has embarrassed himself by mismanaging this situation without any congi help !!! Not expected from Modi hence the khujli.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Jan 2015 00:49

Sagar G wrote: ]

Ending contract is not the issue but the way it has been done which is humiliating. Modi has embarrassed himself by mismanaging this situation without any congi help !!! Not expected from Modi hence the khujli.

Did AC say this to you or to any newspaper ir TV Channel. He is reported to be working in office normal. He is quite why you are worked up. Are you going to resign in protest from whatever you are doing?? By all means do so.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 15 Jan 2015 00:52

chaanakya wrote:Did AC say this to you or to any newspaper ir TV Channel. He is reported to be working in office normal. He is quite why you are worked up. Are you going to resign in protest from whatever you are doing?? By all means do so.

Why are you getting so much khujli if I protest this behaviour of GoI, if you don't agree with me that's fine no need to turn Indira and tell people what to do and not. Keep your advice to yourself, not interested.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2015 00:53

chaanakya wrote:DRDO was put on notice long back. Here is the report of his speech in MSM

Narendra Modi extremely unhappy with DRDO’s failure to meet deadlines in delivering products
BHAVNA VIJ AURORA, ET Bureau Aug 23, 2014, 11.10AM IST

Avinash Chander perhaps did not think it fit to heed to advice of PM then, it seems. Otherwise he would not have recommended extension to many scientists and would have made arrangement to put five labs under charge of young scientists. DRDo's delivery on projects would have come under heavy and close scrutiny.
NEW DELHI: When Defence Minister Arun Jaitley commissions Indian Naval Ship Kamorta on Saturday in Vizag, it will be bereft of the critical mediumrange surface-to-air missile (SAM) and advanced light towed array sonars (ALTAS) — both of which Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has failed to deliver.

This is not the first failure for DRDO, the only body in the country doing research in the field of defence systems. Prime Minister Narendra Modi had commissioned INS Kolkata on August 16 in Mumbai. That too was without the crucial long-range SAM systems and ALTAS.

Extremely unhappy about the state of affairs, Modi has put DRDO on notice. With the government approving 49% FDI in defence, the PM has asked the tardy organisation to shape-up in the face of competition from the private sector. Officials in the security setup of the country told ET that Modi has asked the defence minister to conduct a detailed review of the organisation, and if need be come out with a white paper on it.

Modi personally delivered a stern message to DRDO, asking the officers to give up their "chalta hai" (lackadaisical) attitude, during the annual award ceremony of the organisation on August 20. The PM had started the DRDO clean-up project even before he attended the award function. He ordered scrapping of a committee that was reviewing cases to grant extension of service to scientists, who had superannuated. The committee sent its recommendations to the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet.

As many as 15 top scientists of DRDO, including Director General (DG) Avinash Chander, are on extension. Chander, in fact, is now on contract after two extensions. Incidentally, he holds three posts — Secretary (Defence) R&D, DG (DRDO) and Scientific Advisor to the defence minister. It was the previous ACC, under the UPA government, comprising Manmohan Singh, AK Antony and Sushil Kumar Shinde that had granted him extensions and finally appointed him on contract in November 2013. About six to eight people were believed to be getting extensions each year in DRDO.

"The PM was not happy about it. As per a department of personnel and training (DoPT) ruling, only the best scientists of international stature should be considered for extensions. He asked for all the details. He was told about the high attrition rate among the younger scientists," disclosed a senior defence ministry official.

The review committee, scrapped by the government, comprised secretaries of Department of Atomic Energy, DRDO and ISRO as members. Modi is believed to have said that the secretaries of the same departments could not review extensions of their own personnel. He has now constituted the committee to include the Cabinet Secretary and secretaries of unrelated departments of science and technology and earth sciences.

"It is to weed out the dead wood that Modi made the announcement about employing only young scientists, not over the age of 35, in five of the 52 DRDO labs. It is a beginning and will send the message to everyone working in DRDO to deliver," explained the defence ministry official.

DRDO spokesperson Ravi Gupta could not be contacted for a comment.
Now the report must have come before ACC and must be damaging. Dead wood needed to be out. Intention was clear from the beginning and AC failed to make graceful exit. It is not that he would not have known this coming. Shock it may be to many of his blind followers.

oh not the rubbish from TOI.

first, if Modi thinks that hiring people below 35 is = getting out dead wood, somebody needs to take him aside and ask him point blank what his achievements in science and tech are to come up with such "insight".

next what? he is going to go and ask the army to make all its generals in their 30-40s? guys who can command battalions should be overnight made into senior generals and handle corps?

this reserve 5 labs for youngsters smacks of such tokenism. why 5 labs? why not all? why not stress more on GOI opportunities, training, opportunities, merit based advances? nope. but such comments.

first, drdo puts people on extension out of desperation, because there are only a few people at any given time with the kind of institutional experience to have worked on core tech programs. with pvt MNCs prolferating in BLR, HYD, many of these guys are snapped up at 3x-4x the salary as center heads.

what is this world standard scientist BS as well. who determines what is world standard? are russian scientists who never had a patent to their name and only slaved in labs in the urals, world standard? who comes up with this sort of idiocy?

btw, india is NOT the US or USSR, which has had a 100 programs on the same area of technology to incubate multiple groups of scientists.
check the NIIP - Almaz Antei group sometime. their product line. compare with the Phazatron affiliated groups. then the naval groups. multiple factories, labs, facilities working on radars, SAMs. hundreds of programs, blank checks, at any given time, a dozen running together for upgrades alone.

we have one cluster at hyderabad. now another coming up in BLR. thats it.

we have at any given time, limited amounts of seniors who are shuffled across programs.

their knowledge is hard won, across usually a handful of programs which is then leveraged across others.

eg ASL which is now with RCI contributing to multiple programs is basically an Agni lab. DRDL was Prithvi. Pillai when he went to Brahmos took whatever had been made at DRDL and used it for Brahmos. do you think a 35 year old with barely a decades worth of experience would have been able to steer such a program or get whatever he wanted?

second, ALTAS and LRSAM are both cutting edge programs. the israelis gave us the finger on LRSAM because they had bigger priorities. ALTAS is heading for trials this year. as things stand, only a few countries in the world make towed array sonars & in each case their resources dwarf ours. even the UK procures its sonars from a MNC, Thales now, which is notionally HQed in France.

without nuance, we will have a bunch of idiotic decisions. hope tokenism "under 35 lets hire", is not the order of the day.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Jan 2015 00:59

Bureaucacy at work. AC was given an extension as a contractor while retaining his former position. This was surprising because a few months before NaMo had revealed his policy of promoting "younger" leaders and had declined extension requests from various lab directors. But AC was somehow given extension not just as a consultant but continuing in his former capacity. It is likely his extension request was submitted before such policy came into being and implemented across bureaucratic layers. The termination order followed subsequently but was handled quite messily. The government should have first found its candidate and promoted him/her to position held by AC. Then there wouldn't have been this kind of controversy.

To end these speculations, NaMo government should issue a statement thanking AC for his service to the nation and stating which "younger" person they promoted to fill his position.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jan 2015 00:59

The question would be what was the contract post retirement AC signed up for? If the contract says, he can be fired without giving any reason whatsoever, then Modi Gov has every right to execute that order.

If anyone taking offence, must bring that contract into discussions instead of shooting missiles in air.

HKumar · Post by **HKumar** » 15 Jan 2015 01:09

under 35 is probably carried over from software business. It works (depending on how you look at it) in software to an extent but people start with basic engineering degree. If you go in for a Phd and research, you will fail to make the cut of under 35, in the peak of your career.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jan 2015 01:13

Folks don't get banned.
ramana

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Jan 2015 01:17

Why are we shooting at each other now? Couple of points should be self evident:
* Anger and disappointment at DRDO was signaled much earlier. Axe was coming.
* Until Nov 2014 BJP govt had no problem with Chander.
* Sudden dismissal would most likely mean something serious came to light. Age etc are lame excuses.
* Govt does not want to discuss such issue if above is true due to National interest. They will give lame excuses.
* Modi and Parrikar are both decisive but neither has a reputation for being boorish, quite the opposite.
* Because of above, most likely explanation is internal sabotage to discredit GoI and make people angry.
* Congies are most likely to gain from above sabotage so they are main suspect.
* It was a BJP/Modi/Parrikar failure, period. They will need watertight execution going forward.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 15 Jan 2015 01:18

fanne wrote: or was there some rivalry between VKS and AC (as in some fundamental difference, like lets build a 20,000 KM ICBM and both on different pages and AC being different than NAMO govt).

No. What needs to be more widely understood is that in India (as in most large, developed countries), there is a national-security establishment which is very deeply embedded. Politicians come and go, but it is extremely difficult to get rid of the establishment (barring cataclysmic war). India's national-security establishment remembers the events of 1965-66 (Congress), 1971 (Congress), 1998-99 (BJP), and 2008 (Congress). There is unanimity on the need for 360 degree deterrence.

By the way, India already has that to a certain extent. If a missile can travel 3500 km with a 2500 kg payload, perhaps it can travel much further with a 200 kg payload. I'll leave that to your imagination.

UPDATE: I should add that this is not a prescription for complacency. It is certainly true that foolish politicians can do significant damage to a country's national-security establishment. One example of that is PM Morarji Desai (who is rumored to have been a CIA asset; he shut down much of RAW). Another example is PM I.K. Gujral (who shut down CIT-X and CIT-J).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2015 01:21

HKumar wrote:under 35 is probably carried over from software business. It works (depending on how you look at it) in software to an extent but people start with basic engineering degree. If you go in for a Phd and research, you will fail to make the cut of under 35, in the peak of your career.

its completely unreasonable though to expect "under 35s" to somehow steer complex programs.
PR of "young scientists steered the program etc" apart, the fact is where is the experience?

a typical radar takes some 5-6 years to develop and get into trials etc. add 2 more years for user trials and getting into production. eg RESAR which was talked about in 2008 is in trials now. a missile program like the BMD (starting ab-initio) will easily take a decade+ and requires radars, C3I, missiles. a 35 year old may be able to contribute to the former, but will be limited at the higher level requirements of the latter.

ALTAS is being developed by NPOL - completely under aegis of Navy input and what not. despite three decades of sonars (hull mounted), deployed submarine sonars, one completed TD for towed sonars, we are now in trials for towed array NSR compliant sonars. this mirrors other countries which is why they laugh at us when we ask for tot. as if a persons brain can be distilled and given across and as if they'd do so. now how will a 35 year old know as much about sonars as somebody who has worked on 3 gens of it? its not like we can hire the handful of indians working on sonars abroad and punch them here at 4x the salary of their peers.

unfortunately such tokenism is pretty damaging.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Jan 2015 01:22

The reports seem to misunderstand "under-35" policy. At the labs, the push was more for non-extensions of top positions which were to be filled by next in-line candidates (who would be "younger" by only a few years). Where "under-35" came about was as an experiment on select few sub-labs where these really young scientist/engineers could be given a free reign to innovate. This came from success seen on various missile programs like Prahaar.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 15 Jan 2015 01:23

Karan M wrote: first, if Modi thinks that hiring people below 35 is = getting out dead wood, somebody needs to take him aside and ask him point blank what his achievements in science and tech are to come up with such "insight".

His simple achievement is that he happens to be PM. As simple as that. And it seems to be the Govt policy to clear the oldies who have been having extensions.

Karan M wrote: next what? he is going to go and ask the army to make all its generals in their 30-40s? guys who can command battalions should be overnight made into senior generals and handle corps?

If the Generals are also on extensions, then maybe he will also ask them to go.

Karan M wrote: first, drdo puts people on extension out of desperation, because there are only a few people at any given time with the kind of institutional experience to have worked on core tech programs. with pvt MNCs prolferating in BLR, HYD, many of these guys are snapped up at 3x-4x the salary as center heads.

Obviously, the Govt does not agree with you. The Govt seems to feel that younger lot need to be given opportunities and that the oldies are clogging the upward mobility.

Karan M wrote: their knowledge is hard won, across usually a handful of programs which is then leveraged across others.

The whole idea of creating institutions is to not depend on individuals. If an institution has not been able to groom the next generation to take over the mantle, then that too is counted as a failure. Extensions are not going to solve anything. Extensions are a bad policy. It is also a bad policy if a single person is holding too many portfolios.

It is good that all such decisions are being taken. It tells me that the institutions will become really better. Kudos to Modi Govt for taking a good decision. Hopefully, the younger lot will step up and seize the opportunities.

----
This Govt seems to have a consistent policy on this issue that oldies are a problem in such institutions. And that younger lot need to be encouraged. Please note the date of following articles. So, there was no surprise on this policy. Govt has been consistent on its policy and will pursue whether some like it or not.

Extension plea of top scientists rejected, govt bats for younger directors
Posted on November 5, 2014 by admin

Manu Pubby New Delhi, November 4, 2014 | UPDATED 20:04 IST- Indiatodayin

The government has struck down a request by the DRDO to grant four of its top scientists a service extension with the Prime Minister stepping in personally to ensure that the organisation does not add to its massive bank of scientists who have been working well past their retirement age.

In a move that has brought cheer to the younger scientists of the organization, the PMO refused to entertain a request by the DRDO’s departmental peer review committee to extend the service of four of its lab directors beyond the age of 60 years.

In the past, recommendations of the peer review committee were routinely accepted by the government and in most cases scientists were given an extension of two years to four years. However, as reported by the India Today, the new government is keen to have a younger profile of scientists in the organization and has already expressed concern about the increasing age profile in a field that requires cutting edge technology and expertise.

Sources said that four scientists including Prof MP Kaushik (DRDE Director), Dr VC Padaki (DEBEL Director) and DS Sistla Ravind (LRDE Director) had been recommended by DRDO Chief Avinash Chander for an extension of service. While the file made it all the way through the appointments committee of cabinet, sources said that the request was turned at the Prime Minister’s desk. The DLRL Lab director is also not to get an extension of service.

Officials said that the decision not to grant an extension was taken as part of the government’s new policy to promote younger talent with PM Narendra Modi already instructing that at least five labs should have directors below the age of 35.

However, as things most top scientists at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) who are tasked with creating weapons for future have passed the retirement age of 60 and are on service extensions.

The old age problem starts from the very head of the organization with DRDO chairman Avinash Chander already on two extensions. The previous government even approved a extraordinary contract to give Chander a 18-month contractual tenure from November when he turns 64, the maximum age till which service extensions can be given.

As reported by the India Today, most director generals at the headquarters and the heads of six of DRDO’s 54 labs and establishments are currently on extension. As many as 10 of the 16 top DRDO scientists are on extension. Internal surveys have found that nearly 87 per cent of the young scientists who join DRDO soon get disenchanted with the archaic, rigid structure of the research body that does not reward extraordinary performance with proportional career growth.

Link

An old age problem -DRDO has become ageing body with top scientists on extension
Posted on October 3, 2014 by admin

For a country that boasts of one of the youngest populations in the world, it is strange that the field that perhaps deals with the most cutting-edge technology is dominated by scientists past their prime. Most top scientists at the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) who are tasked with creating future weapons are past the retirement age of 60 and are on service extensions.

Indeed, such is the state of affairs that the head of the research organisation, which encompasses 54 establishments and labs dealing with fields as diverse as ballistic missile defence and insect repellent cream, will get an 18-month contractual tenure from November when he turns 64, the maximum age till which service extensions can be given. This extraordinary contract, beyond the remit of extensions, was specially approved by the previous UPA government more than a year in advance for the present DRDO Chairman Avinash Chander.

Though not new, the old age crisis of the lumbering organisation has worsened as private sector prospects have brightened for young scientists. Internal surveys have found that nearly 87 per cent of the young scientists who join DRDO soon get disenchanted with the archaic, rigid structure of the research body that does not reward extraordinary performance with proportional career growth. Annual intake of new scientists has dropped to just 70, barely enough to replace those who take early retirement, thereby, rapidly increasing DRDO’s age profile.

It is still early to judge the Narendra Modi Government’s policies, but the perception that it is taking a strong stand on the issue has brought cheer to hundreds of young scientists itching to prove their worth in DRDO’s labs across India. A series of events, from the Prime Minister’s remark on promoting young scientists to the cabinet secretariat’s stinging order curbing DRDO’s unilateral age extensions to its scientists, have raised hopes that the problem is finally being addressed.

It’s about time, too. As many as 10 of the 16 top DRDO scientists are on extension. Apart from Chander, nine of the top-graded `Distinguished Scientists should have retired, but most are now on their second extension.

Rules mandate that DRDO scientists must retire at 60. They can, however, be given two two-year extensions under,extraordinary circumstances. Beyond the age of 64, there is no provision for service extension. Yet, the UPA government, in May 2013, approved an Appointments Committee of the Cabinet note to give an 18-month extension to Chander following his “date of retirement of 30.11.2014 on contract basis, with the same terms and conditions as he would be entitled to before the date of retirement”.

By doing this, the UPA went back on its promise to appoint a younger head to DRDO. (Both V.K. Saraswat and M. Natarajan, who preceded Chander, retired at 64.) The special provision made for Chander has become the subject matter of several complaints, the latest by one of DRDO’s own, younger scientists to the cabinet secretariat in August. “The post-retirement contract is not legal and has been made against the rules. A contractual employee can be taken for an advisory role but not to head an organisation,” Navin Gupta, the Kanpur-based DRDO Scientist ‘C’, said in his complaint.

While a convincing argument can be made that age is no criterion for innovation and that experience and continuity is needed to deal with certain technology areas, most scientists on extension in the DRDO are handling primarily administrative positions- from most director generals at the headquarters to the heads of six of DRDO’s 54 labs and establishments.

The impact of the extensions policy on DRDO’s talent pool is immense: an internal survey found that most of its entry-level scientists are unhappy about their career prospects and some 57 per cent of all scientists leave the organisation prematurely due to lack of professional satisfaction. Since 2008, nearly 500 entry and mid-level scientists have resigned or taken early retirement while intake of new scientists has barely kept pace. At a seminar on August 20, Chander admitted this was a problem that required urgent attention. “DRDO’s annual intake of young scientists has dipped to 70 per year, resulting in a rapidly rising average age which certainly is not a good sign for an innovation-centric organisation,” he said. The average age of DRDO scientists is creeping closer to 40.

When Modi, speaking immediately after Chander at the same function, said that at least five DRDO labs should only employ scientists under 35, it was the first indication that his Government was addressing the problem. Many thought that the PM picked the number, five, randomly, unaware that it had come from the most in-depth review of the DRDO ever done.

The review, conducted by the Rama Rao Committee in 2008, had identified five labs working in critical fields such as solid state physics, metallurgy, cryptology and lasers for ‘empowered‘ status in order to give them the liberty to quickly induct young talent, bypassing the cumbersome selection process.

The voluminous report suggested other far-reaching reforms, but the UPA government never fully implemented it. The new Government has dusted it and top officials are studying its recommendations. These include revamping the human resource structure to enable DRDO to hire talent from outside, including Indians working abroad, for key technologies; identifying a set of ‘empowered labs’ that have the freedom to hire and fire scientists; lowering the age of entry of talent; and looking abroad for key innovators. “A balance has to be struck. The optimised path may be being selective in granting extensions for specific research projects and not for administrative roles,” says Air Marshal Ajit Bhavnani (retd), who was a member of the review committee.

As for the old age issue, one of the first things the Modi regime has done, at least, is get the cabinet secretariat to issue a terse circular on September 26, directing DRDO to stop the practice of unilaterally granting age extensions to its scientists without the approval of the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet, which is headed by the Prime Minister. Sources say extensions have been put on hold and all such future requests would be critically examined. Whether the Government is firm in this resolve will be tested by the upcoming grant of a contract extension to the DRDO chairman.

Link

I think this is a very good policy and should be pursued vigorously in all institutions. When its time to go, its time to go. Old generation should not be allowed to keep the next generation waiting.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Jan 2015 01:29

Modi never intended to have all DPSUs managed by under-35s, just 5 labs IIRC. That would have the effect of lighting a fire under everyone's butt so question is why has it not happened. True, it is a wildly unorthodox thing to do but Modi is anything but orthodox and maybe that's exactly what the DPSUs need.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2015 02:14

jphnee g, request please - please no page long posts if you are replying to me. if you have something compress it and post it. otherwise this will be my last reply to you. you may have the time for long exchanges wherein i have to hunt for your statements and compose a reply. i find it hard.

johneeG wrote:His simple achievement is that he happens to be PM. As simple as that. And it seems to be the Govt policy to clear the oldies who have been having extensions.

oopsy

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/ ... ority.html

ps: for one quoting policy, usually generalists consult specialists before making policy and in a democracy above appeals to authority dont work.

pps: he is not infallible. automatically assuming that whatever he says/does cant be debated, isnt democracy, its banana republic behavior.

If the Generals are also on extensions, then maybe he will also ask them to go.

yeah, because the govt first puts the generals on extensions and then yanks it away..people shouldnt even raise their eyebrows..

Obviously, the Govt does not agree with you. The Govt seems to feel that younger lot need to be given opportunities and that the oldies are clogging the upward mobility.

upward mobility, lol
boss we need merit based mobility not quotas for young, old etc

Karan M wrote: their knowledge is hard won, across usually a handful of programs which is then leveraged across others.

The whole idea of creating institutions is to not depend on individuals. If an institution has not been able to groom the next generation to take over the mantle, then that too is counted as a failure. Extensions are not going to solve anything. Extensions are a bad policy. It is also a bad policy if a single person is holding too many portfolios.

It is good that all such decisions are being taken. It tells me that the institutions will become really better. Kudos to Modi Govt for taking a good decision. Hopefully, the younger lot will step up and seize the opportunities.

missed the point by a mile. where is the CURRENT pool of people to draw upon?? what happens to CURRENT programs while the Govt comes up with some great policy?

it takes a decade for drdo to train an engineer (vk saraswat estimate) due to indian educational system limitations. he is 35 by then adding another 2-3 years for mtech. how can that guy in anyway compare to a 65 year old? or even a 50 year old in terms of domain knowledge?

we need enough seniors to hand hold the juniors and run some of these programs which require really experienced folks.

rest of your post is just media quotations so i'll pass. looks like you rely purely on media messaging and have no interaction with the folks who work in these domains to understand their staffing issues. and if you rely on the media, its going to be a mess.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Jan 2015 02:18

Personal opinion: I don't think anybody can justify how this whole episode was handled. Albeit, except for those who believe that the `Modi govt. can not set a foot wrong', and hence try to fit causes to the effect.

It is difficult to believe that Parrikar was in the loop for the decision. His "I did this for better management" U-turn seems like an attempt to reign in the fiasco, which I think is the right thing to do now. Alas! The cat is out of the bag. He shouldn't have spoken the previous evening. He is a smart man. I am sure he will learn from this episode.

Actually, it smells like a fall-out between the PMO and the DRDO chief, and the PMO finally asserting who is boss. It may be a last-straw kind of situation, but the decision looks like a snap-reaction. Nobody knew that a replacement was being sought! Not even the DM!! That the (interim) replacement is just 3 years younger belies the official reason being parroted.

I really think the Modi govt's exceptional PR skills is still stuck in election mode. The CG episode, the ISRO chief episode and now this. There is this perennial hurry to showcase achievements. The CG's wonderful achievement was so badly mismanaged that it should be made into a case study! Why not take the time to carefully draft press releases and make the release only after ensuring that everything is in place? For example, wait for the CG ship to return, ask the experts to brainstorm on any adverse questions that might be asked, and then issue the shortest press-release required! Instead, a hurried and boisterous press release is published within hours of the operation. Inevitably, it was taken to the dogs by the media, which ultimately led to a national achievement (which it truly was at many levels) into something that can be possibly used against us! The DM had to say, "circumstantial evidences point to", "if you want, you can question the CG ship's crew", etc. etc. An internal investigation has to be launched!!!!

The same goes for this episode! No matter how meritorious the decision was, couldn't they wait for an acknowledgement from the DM, the MoD spokesperson, and Dr. Chander before going public! And why on earth does such a letter have to be put up on any website at any time?!!!!

I say this as a well-wisher of the Modi-govt whom I would really like to continue for at least one more term. It is not doing itself any favours by giving fodder to the Congressis like this. It has lost a lot of well-wishers in the past two weeks. It is evident on this forum as well. Karan, Sagar, have always been strong Modi-supporters and Congress-haters!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Jan 2015 02:24

Indranil, cent per cent agree w/you.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Jan 2015 02:32

^ Maybe BJP did not imagine the "opposition" and media would bay like bloodthirsty hounds without a care for national interest. They now need to understand and operate under the assumption that BJP/Modi will be attacked even if (God forbid) there is a major terrorist attack, with both congies and media questioning every single action and supporting the terrorists.

HKumar · Post by **HKumar** » 15 Jan 2015 02:45

Many senior people are either jostling for management positions or waiting for time (to retire) to run out. You can see this in tenure staff at US unis. The newer ones are fighting for tenure are usually the most productive. You have the same resentment at seniors warming chairs. Having said that I find it incredibly naive and simplistic to find a finger on an age and declare it productive or non-productive. This 35 (or any number) or 'younger blood' business looks like it more jostling for management positions than anything. If you want productive, you need a nurturing environment free of politics and if not, a carrot and stick approach and there are only so many carrots to dangle and sticks don't work in an Indian Govt environment.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 15 Jan 2015 02:51

Once in a while, there is an opportunity to make a sharp but meaningful post.

Sharp, as in not pleasant, even if you agree with it. This may be one. Rare these days. Disclosure -- qualified to make this post.

Some facts:
1. Tenure is an essential evil. It is evil none the less. All government positions are tenured.

2. "Service" does not mean becoming a condom for someone's agenda. Not a government, not a religion, not even a race or species.

3. It is nearly impossible to use "ends justify means" philosophy without shades of north korea/china type system leaning.

4. Inefficiencies are inherent in any system with a dharmic leaning. If people are more than expendibles, then you have to deal with their human flesh as well.

5. Age is irrelevent. The vast lot of so-called scientists under 35 are useless. As are the majority of over 35s.

6. There is no uniform criteria possible by age or any other evaluation that will prevent loss of irreplaceable talent.

7. By 65, the only contribution you make is your calming presence. A sort of deity.

8. Its better to have this deity be intellectual rather than political appointee.

9. There will always be "top" posts. Like the president, they are all ceremonial.

10. Progress, in any science that involves physical realization, is a matter of dogged perseverence only.

The DRDO has dead wood. The dead wood is not necessarily blocking anything. The government has extreme corruption. Corruption is the main reason for non-performance.

The media is fishing in troubled waters. Or desperate to present them as troubled. They would go any length to present an image of inept governance, regardless of the process, matter or individuals. I dont know why.

Some rare people are irreplaceable. In India in particular, even science is an oral tradition. There is no journal replacement. All people treat certain things like the ordinary person treats gold -- trade secrets. They will be needed until they pass on. The roles can be changed, better inside the tent than outside.

You also cant make water out of stone. Education is a rarity, and the so called degrees are entirely worthless. Mine -- toilet paper. Yours -- the equivalent mug of water. It is motivation that counts. The nationalist motivation or the capitalist motivation. One or the other.

The scale of important things has gone from thousands to thousands of lakh crores in my puny life time. The fraction of import content remains the same. One individual is not the problem, nor the solution.

The DRDO wont become a military industrial complex, ever. That is not its role. The people who need to shape up are the producers. R&D is an exercise in frustration, not a guarantee of completion.

disha · Post by **disha** » 15 Jan 2015 03:04

Regarding the Sri Chander'jis episode - the main grouse it seems is how it was handled. So exploring on that:

1. Modi Sarkar is inept. Or it handled this episode ineptly. This is a simple reason (occam's razor and all that).

2. OR - if the modi sarkar is not inept, why this sudden "ineptness" for such a major appointment?

Exploring #2 further, one can explain the sudden "ineptness" as either:

2a. The C-System is doing Modi Sarkar in., show it inept - seed discontent in DRDO, show that Govt. is out of sync with DRDO and cause additional friction.

Given that even the CONgis act as Bakistan's A-Team, the above conjecture is not far off the mark.

OR

2b. There is something more to meet the eye. What happens if this is all staged and even Sri Chander'ji is actually part of the setup. I would come back and try to connect the dots only once Agni-V flies.

Coming back to the CG incident., it might be that one arm of the government (CG) got over-excited and claim the credit quickly. The part of Sri Parrikar stating "go question the CG" might be a situation where he is still learning the ropes. That is not "ineptness" - definitely inexperience.

For a government to stabilize and find its own feet - give it some 2 years - and the Modi Sarkar will trip often - because it is not sleeping!! It is running and running fast!!!

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 15 Jan 2015 03:26

Karan M wrote:jphnee g, request please - please no page long posts if you are replying to me. if you have something compress it and post it. otherwise this will be my last reply to you. you may have the time for long exchanges wherein i have to hunt for your statements and compose a reply. i find it hard.

Karan M, please don't give any suggestions on how I should post. I'll post the way I think I should be posting. I don't care whether you reply or not or even whether you read or not. If you don't have time, then thats your problem.

Karan M wrote:
johneeG wrote:His simple achievement is that he happens to be PM. As simple as that. And it seems to be the Govt policy to clear the oldies who have been having extensions.
oopsy

http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/ ... ority.html

ps: for one quoting policy, usually generalists consult specialists before making policy and in a democracy above appeals to authority dont work.

You were the one who started this 'whats his achievement' argument. And I just gave you the answer. He decides because he is the PM. And thats how democracy works.

Anyway, this policy is not about science. It is about management. When so many of the Top scientists in an institute are on extension, then clearly it is a result mis-management and needs better management. And thats precisely what Modi Govt is doing.

Karan M wrote: pps: he is not infallible. automatically assuming that whatever he says/does cant be debated, isnt democracy, its banana republic behavior.

I didn't say that you can't criticize the govt. I am a big supporter of anyone who criticizes the authorities because I think criticism keeps the system alert and working well. But, you were not criticizing the policy. You don't like the policy, fine. You can criticize the policy and point out why you think its a wrong policy. But, you were indulging in a silly logic that unless the PM is a Top scientist, he should simply keep giving extensions.

Karan M wrote:
If the Generals are also on extensions, then maybe he will also ask them to go.
yeah, because the govt first puts the generals on extensions and then yanks it away..people shouldnt even raise their eyebrows..

Well, apparently, thats what the contract based extension was. So, the Govt has every right to terminate the extension if it feels the need. Why should there be any raised eyebrows?

Karan M wrote:
Obviously, the Govt does not agree with you. The Govt seems to feel that younger lot need to be given opportunities and that the oldies are clogging the upward mobility.
upward mobility, lol
boss we need merit based mobility not quotas for young, old etc

Fine. But, there will be no upward mobility(merit based or seniority based) if the same oldies are given extensions after extensions. The younger lot will never get a chance.

Karan M wrote:
Karan M wrote: their knowledge is hard won, across usually a handful of programs which is then leveraged across others.

The whole idea of creating institutions is to not depend on individuals. If an institution has not been able to groom the next generation to take over the mantle, then that too is counted as a failure. Extensions are not going to solve anything. Extensions are a bad policy. It is also a bad policy if a single person is holding too many portfolios.

It is good that all such decisions are being taken. It tells me that the institutions will become really better. Kudos to Modi Govt for taking a good decision. Hopefully, the younger lot will step up and seize the opportunities.
missed the point by a mile. where is the CURRENT pool of people to draw upon?? what happens to CURRENT programs while the Govt comes up with some great policy?

You are the one missing the point. The whole point is that the new pool of youngsters is not being created because the youngsters are quitting as they seem to feel that there is no upward mobility. There is no upward mobility because of extensions to oldies.

So, the first step is to stop giving extensions to oldies. Then, there will be upward mobility. Then, more and more youngsters will join and be retained. Then, there will be a good pool of talent.

BTW, if you say that there is no talent pool in current circumstances, does it not mean that even you are accepting that the management policy is not working? Will extensions create new talent pool? What happens if top scientists suddenly quit for some reason?

Good management means creating a good institution which can run even if an individual is not available for some reason. Thats what the Govt is trying to do. Dependence on individuals and extensions is being minimized and proper management policy is being created to make DRDO more efficient.

Karan M wrote: it takes a decade for drdo to train an engineer (vk saraswat estimate) due to indian educational system limitations. he is 35 by then adding another 2-3 years for mtech. how can that guy in anyway compare to a 65 year old? or even a 50 year old in terms of domain knowledge?

If you really think that oldies will be very useful, then maybe you should be asking for increasing the retirement age instead of keep giving extensions.

I don't agree with you on this.

But, I do agree with you on some points:
a) the upward mobility should be based on merit rather than merely seniority.
b) there should be reforms in education system.

Karan M wrote: we need enough seniors to hand hold the juniors and run some of these programs which require really experienced folks.

All the grooming is supposed to happen before the retirement time. Extensions should be an exception, not a norm.

Karan M wrote: rest of your post is just media quotations so i'll pass. looks like you rely purely on media messaging and have no interaction with the folks who work in these domains to understand their staffing issues. and if you rely on the media, its going to be a mess.

It is media reports about Govt policy that the oldies will not be giving extensions. Those reports are 2 months old. The report quotes an internal survey which apparently revealed that the extensions to the oldies are leading to youngsters taking VRS. So, the Govt seems to have decided that extensions will not be given anymore. This seems to be the consistent policy of the Govt. I don't see why there is even surprise about this when the Govt seems to have clearly spelled out its policy on the issue and is carrying it forth.

I personally like this approach and I think the Govt should be steadfast on this policy regardless of the pressure.

----

indranilroy wrote:
I really think the Modi govt's exceptional PR skills is still stuck in election mode. The CG episode, the ISRO chief episode and now this. There is this perennial hurry to showcase achievements. The CG's wonderful achievement was so badly mismanaged that it should be made into a case study! Why not take the time to carefully draft press releases and make the release only after ensuring that everything is in place? For example, wait for the CG ship to return, ask the experts to brainstorm on any adverse questions that might be asked, and then issue the shortest press-release required! Instead, a hurried and boisterous press release is published within hours of the operation. Inevitably, it was taken to the dogs by the media, which ultimately led to a national achievement (which it truly was at many levels) into something that can be possibly used against us! The DM had to say, "circumstantial evidences point to", "if you want, you can question the CG ship's crew", etc. etc. An internal investigation has to be launched!!!! The same goes for this episode! No matter how meritorious the decision was, couldn't they wait for an acknowledgement from the DM, the MoD spokesperson, and Dr. Chander before going public! And why on earth does such a letter have to be put up on any website at any time?!!!!

Kongi party and some of the journos have consistently taken a pro-Baki stand. Diggy had released a book which claimed that that 26/11 was an RSS conspiracy. So, I don't see how this boat episode has anything to do with good or bad PR of Modi Govt. Regardless of what CG did or did not do, these pro-Baki elements would have still taken pro-Baki stand.

If anything, that episode only shows one thing: Modi Govt is going to strengthen the institutions. Coast Guard was used to take the lead on Boat episode because its the coast guard's job to do it.

But, I do believe that Modi govt has failed in cleaning up the media and opening up to people.

----
I am not bothered about criticism against Govt or Modi. I am actually surprised that people are not cheering a good policy decision. If good policies are criticized, then the Govts will obviously continue with the same old bad policies which will lead to the same 'desperate' conditions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jan 2015 03:30

it is not a question of hating modi etc.. it is a question of deceny logic where you could very well announce about this, and give a notice to AC, that the gov is trying to consider to "cancel the contract", and that is called media management.

feeding words to media is triggered by actions gov does.. they have to be careful and not show flaws where one if takes a deep breath, and look at things it is nobrainer argument to consider some respect to a retired man.

okay, UPA effed up the contract business for tenured services, etc.. but how you have handled it will be more question than c-system. we all know c-system is corrupt to the core.. we all don't know bjp gov is arrogant to the core.

this is the take for me.. modi gov just exposed arrogancy in candid and vivid form.

bottom: i don't have to be arrogant, to give a golden handshake to a dependent. [abstract]
>>
a breaper need not be arrogant, to push a ban button [concrete]

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jan 2015 03:47

AV delay reasons could be the straw.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 15 Jan 2015 04:01

chaanakya wrote:Principled Stand that No Contract Employee should serve as DG DRDO or Secy to GOI

"principled stands" are never in vacuum and are absolute. By definition, only those policies that help the nation are principled stands. Otherwise what is the worth of these "principle stands"?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 15 Jan 2015 04:03

chaanakya wrote:"Morale of Employee " is very specious argument.

Just by calling specious doesn't make it so. I request that you expand on that. Otherwise, I am convinced that it is not so.