India-US Relations : News and Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2015 06:41

There is deep unhappiness in Washington about India not implementing sanctions against Iran and allowing Crimea’s prime minister to be in President Putin’s delegation when he visited Delhi in December. India is also not playing ball on a trans-Pacific treaty promoted by the U.S. There are other issues including trade policies and defense contracts, plus a failure to solve contractual liability problems stemming from a 2008 deal on nuclear-power projects. Some but not all of these have either been addressed or will be during the visit, especially on defense.

http://www.newsweek.com/obama-heads-ind ... ?piano_t=1

Putin’s trip to Delhi in December led to other possible deals, and it is significant that Russia’s defense minister has been in Delhi this week—another point that cannot please Washington.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jan 2015 06:49

CRamS wrote: means that an average American will be bewildered and be contemptuous of an average India's lifestyle and worldview.

CRamS - that is an interesting statement.

I must ask, are you an "average" American? What constitutes an average American and what is it about the average American that you think makes you aware of what he thinks. Similarly, exactly what criteria do you use to define the "average Indian". I ask these questions both seriously and in jest. In jest because what you think or what I say are irrelevant to the larger picture.

But the more serious side of my question stems from the manner in which all Orientals are portrayed in the west. The entire subject of the orient and inferior races has been built up by people making statements like you have done. There are two aspects to your post.
1. There is a sense of utter superiority of anything American over anything Indian.. But even if that is correct, it is the next part of your post that mimics what orientalists did, and that is
2. Make personal experience and personal observations with an aura of unshakeable authority so that they can be considered the absolute truth. Books about India written by western authors have exactly this attitude and you have picked up that attitude beautifully.

Since it is an attitude, the truth does not matter. What matters is the overall impression being forcefully conveyed - that of utter irrelevance and inferiority of the Indian and the breezy cockiness of the superior American.

The truth on the ground is not average truth. When I fail an exam while the other 24 classmates of mine pass, I have "on average", passed. If I lose a brother in a terrorist attack and no one else is killed, "on average" everyone has survived. So who or what is the average American and average India that you so confidently portray as if you know them better than anyone else?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2015 06:55

perhaps average admi == aam admi ?

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Jan 2015 07:20

CRamS wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote: And yet you're in the US and apparently thriving. Why are you dismissing any sort of bilateral relationship?
Did I dismiss any sort of bilateral relationship? Kindly read what I said. In my opinion a transnational relationship based on realism (which I advocate) is infinitely better than strategic nonsense. And the reason I say that is because there is a huge power disparity, not to mention racial/cultural/civilizational disparities. But make no mistake, I am not diminishing the importance of US to India, whatever gripe I might otherwise have with US.

there are 2 things in life which no one has in control. First is where you are born, into what family, what religion, what caste, what class/wealth. But these are things that run around one in circles throughout life.

Second thing is our death. How and when it is going to happen. Where it is going to happen. Also not in our control.

When both birth and death are not in our control.

And we all just get busy with the cards we are dealt with. Gulp down or ignore the sour grapes. There is really very little difference between any human being on earth. It is just their ability to deal with the situation and ability to fight against what they see as wrong that is important or the binding force.

There are a ton of people out there who accept the situation and try to live with it. They do not protest anything, they do not rebel. They accept everything.

So there are only two "average" people in this world. The "average" dhimmi or also ran and accepts everything as is and doesn't try to change anything the "average" rebel who fights for something they feel should be set right.

Whole world is divided into former and latter types. Whether it be Americans, Europeans, Africans or Indians or Martians.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 22 Jan 2015 07:27

There are only two types of people in this world: people who think that humans can be partitioned into exactly 2 equivalence classes in any dimension, and people who think humans can be partitioned into greater than 2 equivalence classes in any dimension with a little bit of imagination.

just saying. For example, on any given day, Just the fact that you make it to the next day proves to some extent that you made choices (deliberately or just by chance) that resulted in you not getting killed before the end of that day.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 22 Jan 2015 07:31

habal ji: No idea what you are talking about. May be this should go to philosoph(~~istr~~)y thread?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 22 Jan 2015 07:49

DoCJi, from a scholarly, anthropological PoV, you make some good points.

I am looking at the practical side of things. And BTW, I did not mean to say that Americans are right or correct when I say "average American will be bewildered and be contemptuous of an average India's lifestyle and worldview". It is an observation based on how media looks at India, how as you said books are written about India, and above all, my own personal experience in observing Americans. Now, what does one mean by "average", one can go on, but essentially it means cultural mores, how people conduct themselves on a day to day basis, food habits, man-woman relationships etc. Nothing more deep than this. So an average American would be a unbiased random sampling of white Christians/Jewishs Americans from the population, and in the case of India, a random sampling of middle class Indians. Finally, no, I am not Average American.

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Jan 2015 08:34

Tuvaluan wrote:There are only two types of people in this world: people who think that humans can be partitioned into exactly 2 equivalence classes in any dimension, and people who think humans can be partitioned into greater than 2 equivalence classes in any dimension with a little bit of imagination. just saying. For example, on any given day, Just the fact that you make it to the next day proves to some extent that you made choices (deliberately or just by chance) that resulted in you not getting killed before the end of that day.

that's a reductionist way of divdiding people. Think incremental.

the only division I see here. As I see it is those sheeple in USA who think they have it better than sheeple in India.

the sheeple of USA may be slightly contemptuous of the sheeple in India because they have gotten little for their sheepledom.

but do they really matter.

sheeple = not decision makers, rather decision receivers. Them who are meant to unquestioningly obey what comes from above the chain.

Rebels in USA are very similar to rebels in India. No issues of compatability between this group.

Business interests in USA are same as business interests in India. Out to make a fast buck out of people's need or gullibility.

Politicians in USA are similar as politicians in India. They are addicted to power and use and abuse power.

So basically what differences between USA and India are we talking about.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 22 Jan 2015 08:49

that's a reductionist way of divdiding people. Think incremental.

the only division I see here. As I see it is those sheeple in USA who think they have it better than sheeple in India.

You are calling me reductionist for widening possibilities rather than reducing them? That's amusing. Most of the logical fallacies and poor judgement come from reducing the number of choice to some small number, when a little imagination can reveal the illogical conclusions one can draw from restricting choices. There is nothing called incremental logic -- this is about dividing a problem space in to a set of possibilities and then figuring out the conditional probability of an outcomes depending on available information, which is usually incomplete. For example, it is very hard to figure out the illogic of "pascal's wager" if one boxes oneself into your kind of binary division of X and not X. People start spouting all sorts of conspiracy theory by restricting the possibilities in some problem space and come up with really odd ball theories that they are convinced is correct.

As someone said, "all generalizations are odious, including this one". All of us have a limited world view that can only expand by constantly adding new data points that may challenge our world view, but that is harder than it sounds because the brain likes to ignore data points that do not fit a pre-conceived pattern...which is probably why Machine Learning and AI is bound to do better than most humans in a few years, if they are not doing so already. Anyway, all OT here.

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Jan 2015 09:01

When a group of people seek to rule and control a larger mob, they will always tend to do a binary division of X and Y of the population. Some are favored. Others are managed.

you need not believe it, but that doesn't prevent them. If is obvious everywhere, one doesn't always have the heart to accept it. That's all.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 22 Jan 2015 09:06

you need not believe it, but that doesn't prevent them. If is obvious everywhere, one doesn't always have the heart to accept it. That's all.

It is not a matter of belief, dude. You have to know enough to know that there are more than two possibilities, just "believing" there are two possibilities does not make it so. These things are elementary, seriously. If you can see the fallacy in "pascal's wager", then maybe you are saying something I do not get yet and will put some more effort.

But your mention of "wolves" and "sheeple" as the only two categories maybe true in some contexts, but the same person can be sheeple in one thing and a wolf in another -- there are plenty of people who do not choose to lead and also do not choose to follow..what category would they fit in?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jan 2015 10:29

POTUS Plus Lotus Doing Man Ki Baat on 26th will be putting their secretly brewed potion in motion to manage and cure sick nations of Asia .

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Jan 2015 10:39

tuvaluan, what I am trying to say is once a decision has been done to cooperate at decision-making levels. One can go about having the giggles thinking of the outcome of contemptuous americans cooperating with poor Indians, or reject it outright. But in either case, if it is supposed to happen, then it will happen and people will then be both amused and reason around it eventually. Stranger things have happened in this world and people have accepted it. Decision-makers will make the decisions and it is upto the people to accept it, giggle at it or lump it.

Secondly it is not as if Indians (in India) are dying to establish long-lasting productive relations with Americans, or they are waiting to get into the pants of the first american woman they come across. It is a purely platonic and business-like relationship for mutual profit. No state-state cooperation on likes of USA-UK, or USA-UKRAINE is predicted nor desired.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 22 Jan 2015 10:43

Any bonhomied talk of "strategic partnership" and what not between Des and unkil feels distinctly unsafe aajkal.

We should build a foundation for a long-lasting transactional relationship - the only kind that will benefit both nations consistently, IMHO.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Jan 2015 11:24

CRamS wrote:you've got to be kidding me. Every aspect of life, every second of the day to day life an average Indian and an average American live, are poles apart. And given the disparity in power, the overwhelming sense of racial/cultural superiority that Americans have, means that an average American will be bewildered and be contemptuous of an average India's lifestyle and worldview.

Americans recognize achievement, perhaps more so than any other nation. And they are very much aware which are the ethnicities that are succeeding at the highest levels, and are the ones likely to dominate the future.

As an Indian-American, I am surprised that you seem to have such a negative view of how diaspora achievements play into perceptions and respect accorded to their home countries. Seems to be some inferiority complex at work here.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 22 Jan 2015 11:51

whats the opinion of americans about potus in rday parade and maan ke baat

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 22 Jan 2015 14:32

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 977814.cms
Obama's India visit: Close India-US ties could antagonise China, warns former NSA

WASHINGTON: As President Barack Obama prepares for an unprecedented second presidential visit to India, a former top American official has cautioned that strengthening of Indo-US ties could antagonise China and would make Beijing increasingly uncooperative on key global issues.

"With the President soon embarking on a trip to India, let me simply express the hope that the US will not unintentionally intensify concerns in Beijing that the US is inclined to help arm India as part of a de facto anti-Chinese Asian coalition," Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as National Security Advisor from 1977 to 1981 during the Jimmy Carter administration told lawmakers during a Congressional hearing.

"That will simply discourage the Chinese from becoming more helpful in coping with the volatile dangers that confront us in Europe and in the Middle East," Brzezinski said in his appearance before the Senate Armed Services Committee.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 22 Jan 2015 16:40

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 976027.cms
US court summons secy John Kerry in a petition to designate RSS as a terror group

JALANDHAR: In a declaratory lawsuit filed by a US based rights group to designate Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization" (FTO), a US Court has summoned US Secretary of state John Kerry to submit a reply within 60 days.

The summons were issued by the District Court of Southern District of New York to secretary Kerry on Wednesday on a complaint filed by Sikhs For Justice (SFJ), which had earlier filed a complaint of rights violation and Congress president Sonia Gandhi and Congress party for protecting perpetrators of November 1984 massacre of Sikhs.

The complaint has sought from the court to designate RSS as a FTO "for believing in and practicing a fascist ideology and for running a passionate, vicious and violent campaign to turn India into a "Hindu" nation with a homogeneous religious and cultural identity".

The case has been assigned to Judge Swain. Since the defendant in this case is United States, under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure USDOS has 60 days to respond to the complaint.

The lawsuit seeking FTO status for RSS comes at a time when President Obama will be visiting India to attend the nation's 65th Republic Day celebrations on January 26.

It has mentioned "Ghar Wapsi" programme of Sangh affiliates to reconvert Muslims and Christians while comparing it to "convert or die" call of Boko Haram, the Nigerian terror outfit. The complaint also mentions demolition of Babri mosque, Gujarat riots of 2002, killing of Mahatma Gandhi by Nathuram Godse and his glorification apart from ban imposed on it by Indian government thrice. It has also quoted RSS leaders saying that all Indian were Hindus, a statement by former Indian home secretary and Rahul Gandhi saying it a bigger threat than LeT.

The declaratory lawsuit requests the court that "RSS along with its affiliates and subsidiaries be designated as an FTO, in accordance with Section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and designate RSS as a Specially Designated Global Terrorist entity (SDGT) under Executive Order 13224".

The 26 page complaint by human rights group SFJ alleges "crimes of RSS targeting the religious minorities of India include but not limited to, instigating June 1984 military attack against holiest Sikh shrine the Golden Temple resulting in desecration of the temple and massacre of thousands of pilgrims; 1992 demolition of historical Babri Mosque; burning of Churches and rape of Christian nuns in Orissa and elsewhere during 2008; 2002 massacre of Muslims in Gujarat; attack on several other places of worship belonging to different religious minorities; bombing of public places such as trains and buses".

On the basis of July 2014 report "Hindu Nationalism In The United States", the complaint alleges that a movement towards "Hinduizing India" is being funded by non-profit groups in the United States.

Justifying the designation of RSS as FTO, SFJ's legal advisor, Gurpatwant Singh Pannun, stated that "minorities were being targeted by RSS with new zeal ever since Modi became Prime Minister, to accomplish its agenda of turning India into a Hindu nation.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Jan 2015 16:54

This is just a pinprick by the handlers of SFJ against the current Indian dispensation. They will keep up the attacks till they get what they think will be a victory.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2015 18:50

Mort Walker wrote:This is a very good article on the visit:

Obama's Date with Delhi

But in Naypyidaw, Modi found Obama a little dispirited. "I have only two years left. And there's so much to do," the US president reportedly confessed to the older man. Modi's response was hearty and equivalent to a thump on the back. "Two years is a long time. Look at me! I've been in office for just six months and yet have managed to get so much done," Modi said. The two premiers synchronised the timing when they would tweet the announcements. Modi's tweet was: "This Republic Day, we hope to have a friend over…invited President Obama to be the 1st US president to grace the occasion as chief guest."

master stroke!!!
ombaba under control!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 22 Jan 2015 20:09

Arjun wrote: Americans recognize achievement, perhaps more so than any other nation. And they are very much aware which are the ethnicities that are succeeding at the highest levels, and are the ones likely to dominate the future.

As an Indian-American, I am surprised that you seem to have such a negative view of how diaspora achievements play into perceptions and respect accorded to their home countries. Seems to be some inferiority complex at work here.

ArjunJi, please, I am not a Namak Haram. US has given me a lot, perhaps I could have gotten a lot more, and hopefully will, if I keep my arrogant tongue in check, but thats a different story

.

Look, US is unique in one respect in that the green is worshiped, and they have developed an awesome system to generate more green. To this end, anyone who can sustain and augment such a system will be rewarded. But Americans are also human, they have biases and prejudices, and that is what I pointed out. Thats a reality, no inferiority complex. One must be aware of that when dealing with them, especially at a national govt to govt level. Statements like "India and US are natural allies" is utter nonsense.

Let me give you examples you can relate to. See how black basketball and football stars are rewarded. I mean, if not for them, imagine how much money will be taken out of the economy. But at the same time, to gauge American attitudes towards blacks, need I remind you of Ferguson, MO? Likewise, as you pointed out, and I did, us SDREs are in every walk of US life, and well rewarded. Yet, India TSP equal equal is the over-riding undercurrent of American attitude towards India, not to mention the usual anti-Hindu prejudice that is etched in their minds. All I am saying is one must be aware of this.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2015 20:25

Avg American: 6 packer, construction worker, has 10 kids with 3 wives, and retires single drunkard, chapter 11 on alimony pays, and with years of expertise on glocks to kalashnikovs (ak47- 100 million copies sold to US alone).

Avg Indian: SDRE, works hard on the fields, smokes a beedi or two, never retires, abused by landlords and masters for daily wages, lives in a hut surrounded by cobra snakes, and drinks whole heart out, treats hammer and sickle as gods!

btw, when did the f35 became a raptor?
http://www.firstpost.com/india/weak-ant ... 58571.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2015 20:48

CRS, Get familiar with Dunning-Kruger effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 ... ger_effect

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2015 21:15

Promise of a Presidential Visit] Frank Wisner in The Hindu.

Where India and the United States cannot agree on a given issue, it is important that they seek other avenues of cooperation

As President Barack Obama sets out for India, he will find that the same favourable winds which are driving India’s economy are also moving the U.S.-India relationship. The President will be the first American chief of state to visit India twice during his incumbency. He will also be the first President to be received as Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s guest at India’s Republic Day. The invitation to Mr. Obama and his decision to visit India speak volumes about prospects for the Indian-American relationship.

We have come a long way over the past two decades. Indian and American trade and investment are buoyant, defence trade has surged, and strategic consultations, intelligence sharing and counter-terror cooperation are closer than ever in history. The U.S., including our two political parties, believe that a strong India is good for this country; India believes a successful and prosperous America is good for India. This said, to achieve the potential of the relationship, we need to deepen strategic and economic cooperation and set new goals for the relationship.

Common problems

The first issues President Obama and Prime Minister Modi need to address are strategic. The U.S. and India face common problems in dealing with the rise of China. We have many friends in the region, notably Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, Singapore and Indonesia. These countries have similar views about China and recognise the importance of maintaining an Asian balance of power. India and the U.S. have an interest in reinforcing our respective ties to each of these powers. Our common objective should not be to confront or contain China. Rather it should be to shape the environment within which China pursues legitimate ambitions, so that China’s quest for status does not threaten its neighbourhood and the U.S.

{China is not a pet that needs to be shaped. Besides Asian balance of power is not in Indian interests for the Asia that US sees is East Asia all those states named are in that region. Its not global Asia.}

“India and the U.S. should not confront or contain China, but shape the environment within which China pursues legitimate ambitions”

{And who decides for China what are legitimate ambitions!}

Similarly, India and the U.S. are preoccupied with Afghanistan’s future and with the deteriorating situation in Pakistan. Both questions demand close attention and frequent exchanges on strategy. The U.S. has serious issues with Russia and in the Middle East. We face a common threat from terrorism. {common origin from Pakistan a major non-NATO ally of US and now living on US dole}This said, we have different points of view and must be careful not to surprise one another. Where we cannot agree on a given issue, it is important that our two countries seek other avenues of cooperation.

We have challenges ahead in coordinating our respective approaches to climate change; this subject will require hard and specialised work.

An additional word on terrorism is in order. The use of terror affects India, the U.S., Europe, Russia and China, among many other nations. It springs from deep political and cultural causes and has no single point of origin.{Total lie. It comes from wells of terror in Pakistan nurtured by US during cold War and not from a vacuum. } It cannot be dealt with by military means alone; in fact the use of military force can be counterproductive.

To deal with terror, we need to use the full box of tools available to governments — political, intelligence, religious messaging, and police cooperation. Prime Minister Modi and President Obama should give U.S.-Indian cooperation in counter terror the highest priority.

{Hand over David Headley for the crime he committed in India is far more severe than the one he is accused of in US. His handover will collapse the Pak terror apparatus which feels that US will protect their terrorists no matter what.}

Expanding defence cooperation is an especially promising area in the Indian-American relationship. While our two countries will not be “allies” as the term is classically defined, the security of our two nations is enhanced by the closest possible cooperation.

No two countries exercise their military forces more frequently than India and the U.S.[I]{What are they exercising for?}[/I] We are not, however, cooperating as we should in preparing India’s industrial base to provide the systems it will need to cope with the security challenges of the future. Modern warfare is increasingly about intelligence systems communications and electronic warfare. India needs to strengthen its capabilities in these fields as it continues its defence modernisation. Other than the U.S., no nation offers as extensive a range of high-tech defence capabilities. Furthermore, to be able to work together in moments of crises, India and the U.S. should aim to have common defence platforms. To build these platforms, India must reach an agreement with the U.S. on the protection of defence information. Without it, the U.S. cannot share its defence “crown jewels.” The President and the Prime Minister would be well advised to reach agreement on this important question.

Prime Minister Modi is determined to grow India’s economy. He wishes to expand rapidly India’s manufacturing base, and he welcomes American and foreign investment as key drivers in India’s economic performance. To attract foreign and mobilised domestic investment, the Prime Minister, India’s government and its Chief Ministers must tackle key growth impediments. These include infrastructural inadequacies, as well as tax, land, labour and Intellectual Property Rights questions, and India’s financial services regime.

The landscape of U.S.-India economic cooperation is crowded with investment disputes, which undermine confidence in India as an investment destination. Our 2005 civil nuclear agreement has yet to produce the first investment.

The upcoming budget session of Parliament gives the Indian government an important opportunity to lay out an economic reform agenda. American investors will be watching closely the promises which the Indian government makes, and more importantly, its ability to put those promises into practice.

India can reasonably look to President Obama to set out his administration’s policy on high-tech immigration and other irksome issues like social security totalisation. India can also look forward to the President’s help in securing early passage of GSP, the trade enhancing regime that has long facilitated India’s exports to the U.S.

Setting bold goals

Finally, we need to look ahead and set bold goals for the relationship. These goals must serve Indian and American interests. For ‘Make in India’ to succeed, India must sell at home and have markets abroad. To assure foreign markets, India must be competitive and able to trade without impediment. India has yet to complete a bilateral investment treaty with the U.S., and it is not party to current WTO negotiations on subjects as important as IT services and government procurement. More importantly, India is not a member of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation and is not in consideration for membership in Trans-Pacific trade negotiations. President Obama will shortly seek Trade Promotion Authority to permit the U.S. to advance these new super-trade regimes for the Atlantic area and the Pacific. India risks falling between two stools and being excluded from the world’s most potentially dynamic market areas. {Is this a threat?}Securing India’s trade future requires tough negotiations, and a willingness by India to become a competitive world-class economy. This subject is worth discussion between President Obama and Prime Minister Modi. It is reasonable to expect the U.S. to be India’s friend and sponsor if India decides to refocus its trade policy and go global. Expanding India’s trade horizon is central to building Indian strategic strength and in consolidating the U.S.-India relationship. The most promising days of that relationship lie ahead. Prime Minister Modi and President Obama have the opportunity later this month to align our policies and give our very promising relationship a fresh impulse.

(Frank Wisner is former U.S. Ambassador to India.)

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 22 Jan 2015 21:18

While there seems to be consensus from experts/analysts based on media reports, that not much is going to be achieved. Powerful governments, will go for both the optics and some accomplishments. So, Mr.O will be looking for what he can take back and tout to his House (ignore the average American). In order to build his legacy, and give Democrats a good chance in the next elections, he will use all opportunities to 'extract' benefits from this visit.

One would hope Modi, does not yield on wrong ideas and items. Modi's stated objective is development and progress for all Indians. In that quest there is bound to be compromises on issues. Let us hope he stands strong and makes the correct decisions for India and the World. He has the chance to stand up to 'Americanism'. What will he do?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 22 Jan 2015 21:28

This "averaging out" stuff to do == does not do any justice to Indians. In Indian democracy, we have had women in different important roles such as woman PM, foreign born chief of National Advisory Council, etc. The minorities have been doing great to reach a lot of high places. For people from backword areas there is BC/OBC status and many have contributed in the form of constitution, chief Judge of the Supreme Court, etc etc.

Where is the scope of == here with America while "averaging out"? How many blacks in liberal parties in America, when in fact it is the black people who were at forefront of various civil rights movements? Not to forget Jim Crow era or slavery before that.

What about reservations for minorities in USA - in fact is there minority politics in USA at all?

By the way, neighborhood native American is the biggest and oldest myth .. oops .. "urban legend" of America. Everyone knows the Great native American but no one has seen one? In other parts of the world this would be called a trick, actually.

Let us not do "average x/y/z" stuff more than required, to "average out" REAL AMERICA.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 22 Jan 2015 21:31

CRamS wrote:Let me give you examples you can relate to. See how black basketball and football stars are rewarded. I mean, if not for them, imagine how much money will be taken out of the economy. But at the same time, to gauge American attitudes towards blacks, need I remind you of Ferguson, MO?

I think the analogy misses the point completely. American Blacks may be doing well in some walks of life like sports and movies (like Indian Muslims do) - but they are nowhere near being competitive in the parameters that matter. On the other hand, American Whites are actually quite concerned (with some justification, I may add) about yielding top-dog status in their own land to a rapidly emerging Chinese & Indian elite that augments the existing Jewish elite.

Likewise, as you pointed out, and I did, us SDREs are in every walk of US life, and well rewarded. Yet, India TSP equal equal is the over-riding undercurrent of American attitude towards India, not to mention the usual anti-Hindu prejudice that is etched in their minds. All I am saying is one must be aware of this.

Americans actually had a fair degree of 'respect' for Russians as a race - that did not stop them from bringing the USSR down. I am just pointing out "contempt" (a term that you had used) towards Indians, is hardly the right description of overall American attitude (it may be correct for some red-neck Wayne May types but not the majority of Americans).

Also - all strategic partnerships are transactional. Each partner has some expectations that require fulfilling and unless these are executed- the partnership does not sustain. Americans understand this very well - its only Indians who seem to have trouble understanding. Again, folks like Modi, as a Guju Bania, should have absolutely no problem with the concept.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2015 22:04

what wisner does not understand is the world's most dynamic market is India less the world. 2019 is the stepping stone for rocket science made a childs play. watch this coming and progress from desh.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 22 Jan 2015 22:41

krishnan wrote:whats the opinion of americans about potus in rday parade and maan ke baat

Sitting in a town in the middle of nowhere, my reading is that almost nobody knows about the visit including surprisingly a few Indian Americans. All are busy with either admission deadlines or getting over the holidays hangover - recovering from spending madly on things they don't need and giving some to people they don't like who would form long return lines. Add to that the ridiculous cold and snow storms, flu season in full swing, homework for kids piling up etc. resulting in no time for a shindig in distant lands. May be they will see a two second sound byte on their local news channel and think oh president is in India, haven't been in touch with my Indian American friends, I will call them and chat with them for a few minutes and then promptly forget that as well in the crush of daily putting food on the table.

Average Indian I think is much the same.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 22 Jan 2015 22:46

One would hope Modi, does not yield on wrong ideas and items. Modi's stated objective is development and progress for all Indians. In that quest there is bound to be compromises on issues. Let us hope he stands strong and makes the correct decisions for India and the World. He has the chance to stand up to 'Americanism'. What will he do?

IIRC, Modi had already stated (during election campaigns) that he is only interested in a transactional "make in India"/trade relationship -- he seems sharp enough to just work on common ground and ignore the differences for maximum gain, so doubt he will do any overt "standing up" even if his actions make it clear that he knows exactly where to draw the line (such as inviting the Crimean leader to New Delhi to be part of Putin's retinue).

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 22 Jan 2015 23:00

^^ Checked the following 'smaller' papers (when compared to the big boys NYT/WaPo/WSJ): SF Chronicle, Chicago Tribune, Seattle Times, SJ Mercury News and LA Times.

A brief mention in SF Chronicle and Chicago Tribune, that's it. Nothing on the home page, only found these references when searching within the paper. Even here, the SF paper context is Mrs. Obama is travelling with hubby to India, nothing more.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Jan 2015 23:09

>>Yet, India TSP equal equal is the over-riding undercurrent of American attitude towards India,

This is not at all an accurate description of the current situation.

>>not to mention the usual anti-Hindu prejudice that is etched in their minds.

This is irrelevant even if it is true generally, which is debatable.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 22 Jan 2015 23:22

The other news is that the first couple are visiting Agra too to see Tajmahal. Redux of Clinton dancing with Rajasthani women who were lot more poised and lot more dignified than the ex-President.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 22 Jan 2015 23:41

Tuvaluan wrote:There are only two types of people in this world: people who think that humans can be partitioned into exactly 2 equivalence classes in any dimension, and people who think humans can be partitioned into greater than 2 equivalence classes in any dimension with a little bit of imagination. just saying. For example, on any given day, Just the fact that you make it to the next day proves to some extent that you made choices (deliberately or just by chance) that resulted in you not getting killed before the end of that day.

Actually, there is something called Robert Benchly's Law of Distinction:

“There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don’t.”

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 22 Jan 2015 23:59

one kind thinks the other kinds are contained in the one's kind
the other kinds think every other kinds are contained in their kinds
bottom: every kind thinks differently, forget the believes for a sec.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 23 Jan 2015 02:38

Cosmo_R wrote:

“There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don’t.”

that's much more succinct.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Jan 2015 03:47

there are 10 kinds of people in the world. those who understand binary and those who don't.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 23 Jan 2015 05:35

Instructiive of who can find time for what, and who can not. For anyone with longer than 1 day memory -- http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30941090

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 23 Jan 2015 06:02

The most interesting bit about the visit is that there has been nary a peep from the government officials about it except a few bits here and there. But the media is going bonkers with everything from "the beat" to "the route" to the "no-fly zone" to the "marines" to the commandos etc.

It would be interesting to see if any of them have been invited for any "meetings" by the US side.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Jan 2015 07:16

our msm must be peeved at the attention khan msm is been given by obama gov. now, they will ask for equality.. then modi gov can say, show me the equality of my msm == obama's msm, and thus begins a new chapter for msm next gen program.

they have to change a lot! there is nothing wrong in learning goods from anyone, even a kid.