Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 01 Feb 2015 22:04

ramana wrote:The gas generator is basically a rocket motor in a case with the nozzle upwards. It has a fuel mixture that provides lot of hot gas. The first stage nozzle needs to be protected and has a disc like shield.

The F/S ignition ejects the disc.During the ejection phase, F/S exhaust cants to the left side and shows up as a flame noted by shiv.

GG will be in the cannister and should be replaceable item at the depot/base.

Sad that Hindustan Times has to paint error prone pictures despite being in Delhi. One would think they are located in DC to get their incorrect data from the US

I was thinking the same thing as well. However, I scanned a few Russian sites which confirmed that the gas generator comes out with the missile and is ejected to the side. It's a near identical process if you compare Russian canister launches with the Agni V launch.

http://warfare.be/db/catid/366/linkid/1 ... rt-23u%29/

The SS-24 launch canister is 22.6 m long, has a diameter of 2.7 m, and the missile nose cone folds back when the missile is in the canister, folding forwards again during the launch sequence. The missile is cold launched by a solid-propellant gas generator contained within a 2 m high assembly ring that is jettisoned after launch at around 50 m altitude.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Feb 2015 22:33

I have posted the picture of the gas generator and it does indeed get blown off to the side in the Dnepr SS18 configuration - this was one of the first cold launch systems. Seems like the Agni V used this system rather than the steam system.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 01 Feb 2015 23:22

Indeed it seems to be launched like the silo launch of the Dnepr rocket (the modified SS18) see the gas generator plate/tray that pushes up the rocket being blown off away to the side

The Dnepr also has O rings to maintain the seal at the sides of the canister during the cold launch which are blown away when it is ejected - wonder what they did to prevent that. I have a suspicion that they are using the generated hypersonic shock wave to maintain the seal (something like how a high altitude engine testing is done) as you can see a small whiff as the nose cone comes out if you freeze frame after which the seal is maintained till the rocket emerges but that is totally my conjecture and I could be totally wrong about that.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 02 Feb 2015 07:42

Agni-V’s canister-based configuration validated
Feb 2, 2015 01:45 AM , By Y. Mallikarjun
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techno ... 6szCyV6yEg

The configuration of the canister version of ICBM, Agni-V, which was successfully test-fired from Wheeler Island for a range of more than 5,000 km, has been “frozen” and there was no issue as far as validation and verification of India’s most potent strategic missile was concerned.

With the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully conducting three Agni-V missions in a row, including the latest canister-based flight test, only one more trial would be conducted jointly with the user before it gets inducted into armed forces by year-end.

According to a top missile technologist who is closely associated with Agni-V project, the canister-based trial with the user would be conducted in four to five months.

Mentioning the advantages of canister version in terms of operational flexibility to the user, he said one could just park it and launch. Besides providing reduced reaction time, it would also help in camouflaging, he added.

‘Satisfying mission’
A DRDO scientist described Saturday’s success as a very satisfying mission. Calling it an achievement would be an understatement, he added. He said that data capturing while the missile was inside the container was a major challenge. “You are not supposed to lose data for even a millisecond,” he said and added that sufficient data was collected even though the signal level was low when it was in the canister.

In such long-range missions, the earth’s curvature would be an obstruction and therefore the telemetry and radars had to be spread out to monitor the entire operation from the start to end.

User trials scheduled
Meanwhile, the user trials of Agni-3 and Agni-1 are scheduled to be conducted next month.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Feb 2015 07:45

it could be easier in 'normal' sizes like A5 vs the vast size of the SS18. the SS18 is truly a statement of intent more than just a weapon system.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Feb 2015 08:28

What cannister launch of Agni V means is India is moving towards mated delivery systems. No more force in being (Aa Bhail mujhe maar) type of nonsense

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2015 08:38

I like the NFu now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Feb 2015 09:56

realistic view: we are still around 5 yrs away best case from having a few dozen mated and cansisterized Agni3, Agni4(2-AT) and Agni5. I am not sure if the A3 was a stopgap or will be produced in numbers also. the Agni1 with its short range will need to move really close to the border to reach deeper into target sets, hence rough roads..its also a good candidate to cansister for safe travel.

by that time the K4 would hopefully be deployed on the Arihant and Aridaman and the 3rd boat nearing FOC.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 02 Feb 2015 10:43

Singha wrote:I am not sure if the A3 was a stopgap or will be produced in numbers also.

Singha ji, although some inference is called for, this tweet from Saurav Jha seems to suggest that the Agni III has been deployed.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 36m ago Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh
Agni-I, II or III tests from ITR are user training/readiness exercises involving specific SFC units already deployed with these missiles.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 02 Feb 2015 11:02

Singha wrote:The ss18 gas generator is the size of a small house.

The missile and the launch is pure poetry; check the slow motion video

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 02 Feb 2015 12:03

SS-18 compared to Agni-V is Smokeless after separation of Gas generator , Better Propellant Perhaps ?

member_28305 · Post by **member_28305** » 02 Feb 2015 12:12

SS-18 uses liquid propellent.. compared to the solid propellent in A5

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2015 18:54

aah.. those lovely blue smokeless exhaust from ss18!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Feb 2015 19:34

at some point I believe soviets figured out how to handle pre-fuelled ICBms safely for their SLBM units, because in 1950s the ICBMs were fuelled just before launch and hence needed 20 mins to be ready.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2015 19:38

RE: the planned K5 slbm, do we have the under-water video of K4 just to know how much of the platform was impacted (shock)? If we can see a smooth launch, then we can see faster integration into Arihant.

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 02 Feb 2015 19:56

Did India Today just give out A-5's true range?

Agni V is India's most lethal missile yet as it can cover a range of nearly 8,000 kilometers in any direction. This means that the missile can cover a distance of around 8,000 kilometers while carrying nuclear destruction potential and can cover areas ranging from China

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=21639

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Feb 2015 19:57

'Sacking Not a Good Word to Hear After 42 Years', India's Agni Man Says

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2015 20:10

well.. what does media know about sentiments?. it is so sad that our media is politically incorrect always. vishnu som our resident brf rep from ndtv must take this to his highest levels and render an apology.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Feb 2015 20:43

prasannasimha wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Btw, as per Ananth Krishnan, Agni-V fell in Australian waters.
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/561377455210905600
If its at a recoverable depth, Khan Chacha and friends would already be trying to get their hands on it.
The things must have been blown up into smithereens.

The body will be very hot and traveling at very high velocity when it hits the sea surface leading it to be in smithereens.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Feb 2015 20:47

SaiK wrote:RE: the planned K5 slbm, do we have the under-water video of K4 just to know how much of the platform was impacted (shock)? If we can see a smooth launch, then we can see faster integration into Arihant.

SaiK, Its BO5 or K15 not K5.
The K4 has not been tested from underwater yet.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2015 20:49

ramana wrote:..at very high velocity when it hits the sea surface leading it to be in smithereens.

any possibility of sturdy test buoy as the maal that can emit? or the telemetry device should have given the last trace.

thanks ramana, got confused reading: http://idrw.org/archives/57321#more-57321

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Feb 2015 20:54

Usually they have bunch of sonobuoys to triangulate where it fell with some degree of accuracy.
It probable has instruments transmitting its coordinates till the final impact.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Feb 2015 21:11

SaiK wrote:
ramana wrote:..at very high velocity when it hits the sea surface leading it to be in smithereens.
any possibility of sturdy test buoy as the maal that can emit? or the telemetry device should have given the last trace.

thanks ramana, got confused reading: http://idrw.org/archives/57321#more-57321

Relevant quote from your link:

...India quietly also tested K-4 missile which is an intermediate-range nuclear-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) with range of 3500 km last year, DRDO is also working on new K-5 SLBM which will be bigger and heavier but of the same length of K-4 but also will be capable to carry MIRV payloads up to 6000km which will enter into service with Follow-up Arihant class submarines which India will be working on in near future.

DRDO already has offered Land-variant of K-4 to Strategic Forces Command which is highly mobile due to its smaller size compared to current land based version of Agni missiles.
...

SaiK, K5 is next gen K4. Its a MIRV version of the K4 which will be single payload.

So you are right in a roundabout way.

So Agni VI and K5 are the future missiles. Say 2020.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 02 Feb 2015 22:23

ramana wrote:.
...India quietly also tested K-4 missile which is an intermediate-range nuclear-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) with range of 3500 km last year, DRDO is also working on new K-5 SLBM which will be bigger and heavier but of the same length of K-4 but also will be capable to carry MIRV payloads up to 6000km which will enter into service with Follow-up Arihant class submarines which India will be working on in near future.

DRDO already has offered Land-variant of K-4 to Strategic Forces Command which is highly mobile due to its smaller size compared to current land based version of Agni missiles.
..
So Agni VI and K5 are the future missiles. Say 2020.

So what is the argument for Agni VI when K5 is smaller with same payload/range? Or did I read it wrong?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 02 Feb 2015 22:24

A6 as per Sivanthu pillai's slides has more throw weight and can carry 6 MIRV's unlike K5 which will carry 4. Again if A6 is like A5 then range is not 6k but that's up for speculation.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 02 Feb 2015 22:56

ramana wrote:
SaiK wrote:RE: the planned K5 slbm, do we have the under-water video of K4 just to know how much of the platform was impacted (shock)? If we can see a smooth launch, then we can see faster integration into Arihant.

SaiK, Its BO5 or K15 not K5.
The K4 has not been tested from underwater yet.

Ramana in March 2014 K4 was tested froma Depth of 30 meters and flew to a test range of 3000 Kilometers.

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/ind ... -in-secret

http://thediplomat.com/2014/06/indias-n ... ng-of-age/

We can expect the introduction of the K4 by 2014 officially though it seems that it may be inducted any time.there has always been a lag between tests and actual announcemnt in the K series and for all you know validation may be over and once Arihant is fully operational testing may be done.If you see the Pontoon used it was a mock section of the submarine,

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 02 Feb 2015 22:58

One other thing that struck me was why A5 is made with a first stage of maraging steel whereas the 2nd and 3rd stage are made of composites.Just changing the ist stage to a composite motor lightens it considerable so upgradation implies higher range or higher payload while keeping the name same.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2015 23:23

I am assuming A6 specific throw weight is tested out with A5/current tests. More throw weight perhaps due to use of composites for the first stage.
--ps
yup. PN beat me to it!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Feb 2015 23:45

PN, The range partial for any first stage in a three stage missile is low. IOW it doesn't matter much.

However if max range is the objective for a given payload, then all stages have to be lightweight.

Thanks for the K-4 pontoon test refs.

Wonder if one of the delays in Arihant is to ensure both B05 and K4 are proofed. say 2x K4s and 6x B05.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 03 Feb 2015 06:25

So if the range partial doesn't increasw even if the weight is reduced how does it alter maximum range for a payload ? is the acceleration to the second stage increased or is the height achieved increased ? I did not understand ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2015 06:50

the composite 1st stage will it increase the speed of ascent and impart greater starting speed to 2nd stage?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Feb 2015 07:47

do we know the Δw decrease using composites?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 03 Feb 2015 10:10

the composite 1st stage will it increase the speed of ascent and impart greater starting speed to 2nd stage?u

The weight reduction in 1st stage can be utilised in different ways..

A) Increase propellent mass- this may require some changes in dimention of 1st stage

B ) increase propellent mass in 2nd stage - This again will change dimention of 2nd stage

C) increase mass of third stage- either that of propellent or payload or both

D) Simply dont change anything else and allow the missile to accelerate faster.

All have its +/- and a detailed analysis only can give optimum solution depending on operational requirement.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 03 Feb 2015 10:11

prasannasimha wrote:The height was 600 Kms and range was 5000 Kms but the expected height is said to be 800 Kms so people could calculate the same. In one of the statements it was said that the range is 5500 to 5800 Kms. I think VK Saraswat amde such a statement.The Chinese claimed the 8000 Kms range..

In one of the youtube video, Saraswat said that A v's range can be increased. He said that isko chahe to 6000 kar sakate hai, chahe to 7000 kar sakate hai ya Zaroorat ke hisab se badha sakate hai.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 03 Feb 2015 10:25

indranilroy wrote:I don't understand why we should develop canisterized Agni-I, when we already have a canister and TEL for Shaurya?

Is it cost?

I expect 2 derivatives of current missile projects.

1) A surface to surface derivative of PDV like Prahar.

2) A surface to surface derivative of K4 which shall travel in depressed trajectory.

your views sir.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 03 Feb 2015 10:26

Dr Saraswat is an old hand. He would not give out the real range wily nily..especially to some DDM reporter. Expect the range to be fudged amply.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Feb 2015 10:32

What would be the MIRV spread [ranged targets]? may be too much to ask and abstract since we have no idea what is been designed for.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2015 11:47

^ generally upto 200km on either side of the projected line on earth described by the 3rd stage.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Feb 2015 12:01

MIRV could be spread over a longer range say about 1000-1500 km on a 10K range.

MaRV or MRV *ALL release at the same time* can all do a little wriggle to spread over a target area.

MIRV *CAN be released ONE at a time* can be spread over a larger area and thus can be used to target different areas spread over a longer distance.

Edit: Deleted the 1st sentence. A spread of 400 km would be MIRV.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 03 Feb 2015 12:54

SaiK wrote:What would be the MIRV spread [ranged targets]? may be too much to ask and abstract since we have no idea what is been designed for.

The spread distance could be upto 1500 kms depending on situation.