Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 09 Feb 2015 19:29

Sid wrote:^^ nice find. Eight cell launcher for LRSAM. Wonder why they state the system as launcher for MRSAM?

8 cell launcher was already being displayed at various defence expos.

John · Post by **John** » 09 Feb 2015 21:28

Singha wrote:but isnt that a misnomer since the iaf version is reported to be 120km and navy is 70km.

From my understanding Barak-8/NG modified for IAF req is MRSAM and IN is LRSAM, the 120 km variant is the extended range variant which is still in development stage.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Feb 2015 21:31

Nice. I hope L&T also make a 6 cell TELAR for Prahaar. Will see some brown salwars in NASR units when deployed.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Feb 2015 21:58

IIRC the picture shows an inert A-1 round used for testing the TELAR.

rakall wrote:Boys is this a "refined or revised" version of Agni1..
Previously Agni1 has 4 aft fins.. this picture shows Agni1 without the aft-fins -- similar to the 1st stage of Agni4.

Looks like Agni1 is undergoing further refinements - incorporating the new tech validated on Agni4.

Sooper & very interesting !!

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Feb 2015 22:09

srin wrote:
Singha wrote:but isnt that a misnomer since the iaf version is reported to be 120km and navy is 70km.
No - not from the respective service perspective...

For the navy, LRSAM will be its longest range AD system.
For the airforce, MRSAM (though with greater range than IN's LRSAM) is not the full range that it wants. It is a statement of intent that it will acquire even longer range SAMs, perhaps like those of S-400 system (>200 km range)

I am not sure if IN is content with having a missile with 70KM only. For a service which progressively builds up capabilities, they will definitely try to outmatch maximum distance from which enemy can deliver anti-ship ordnance and engagement ranges possessed by Chinese, i.e. HHQ-9.

Also NEZ for such SAMs are usually much less then projected max range.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 09 Feb 2015 22:27

Aditya G wrote:IIRC the picture shows an inert A-1 round used for testing the TELAR.

rakall wrote:Boys is this a "refined or revised" version of Agni1..
Previously Agni1 has 4 aft fins.. this picture shows Agni1 without the aft-fins -- similar to the 1st stage of Agni4.

Looks like Agni1 is undergoing further refinements - incorporating the new tech validated on Agni4.

Sooper & very interesting !!

Yes.. But, in the past inert dummies have always tended to be "exact mockups" !!
The new 'mockup' of 1st stage looks very similar to Agni4 1st stage..

Lets see in future Agni1 launches.. I am guessing the new tech developed for Agni4 (MINGS, SOC etc) are being backward incorporated into Agni1 to improve accuracy & range !

John · Post by **John** » 09 Feb 2015 23:15

Sid wrote:
I am not sure if IN is content with having a missile with 70KM only. For a service which progressively builds up capabilities, they will definitely try to outmatch maximum distance from which enemy can deliver anti-ship ordnance and engagement ranges possessed by Chinese, i.e. HHQ-9.

Also NEZ for such SAMs are usually much less then projected max range.

There is extended range of Barak-8 which is in development and likely headed for P-15Bs. AAD can be navalised and fitted into existing vessels (for example can use the existing Bhramos U-VLS in P-15A) for long range and BMD purpose. That said No matter how much of a range you have there is nothing stopping an adversary from flying lo popping up and unloading a few Ashm and turning back and getting out there. No missile has speed to catch up with receding maneuvering targets at range greater than 200 km.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Feb 2015 23:19

very compact layout. only 1 radar with multiple functions. c3i vehicle can control upto 6 launcher trailers, ie 48 missiles in the air via its on system datalinks.
taking out the radar does not mean the missile will be disabled as C3I vehicle could be taking data from a backup radar

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 09 Feb 2015 23:40

That target aircraft is a Rafale @ 200 million apiece. Even the thought of it been painted by any radar makes me nervous, imagine if we lost one during training. It's like losing your retirement savings in one shot.

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 10 Feb 2015 00:03

OT - it's a gripen.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 10 Feb 2015 01:20

nik wrote:That target aircraft is a Rafale @ 200 million apiece. Even the thought of it been painted by any radar makes me nervous, imagine if we lost one during training. It's like losing your retirement savings in one shot.

Well C-130 was 300 Mil a piece, but guess we got over it very quickly.

The fact is we cannot win a attrition warfare with imported stuff.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 10 Feb 2015 05:43

Nirbhay missile will get Indian engine soon : ADE

SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK (INN)

Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) which participated in Bhartiya Vigyan Sammelan (BVS) Expo 2015 held in Goa confirmed to idrw.org that long-range Subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay successfully test fired on 17 October, used a Russian provided engine and Indian developed engine of similar thrust class is under development .

Russia had supplied 200 small engines of TRDD-50MT type (up to 500kg engine thrust) for unknown Missile project in 2006 and it is highly likely that same engine has been used on Nirbhay missiles while Russia refused to provide production license for TRDD-50MT due missile technology nonproliferation to India, India took up plans to develop one locally for Strategic programme.

Indian engine already has been tested on test bed for maximum RPM and have resulted in required thrust expected from the engine but test was for shorter duration . ADE will be conducting long duration test of the new engine soon at full RPM before it can enter production.

1000km long range Sub-sonic Nirbhay is a crucial missile in India’s Defence Strategic programme and will serve in Indian Army , Air-force and Navy . ADE is also planning shorter Aircraft launched Sub-sonic cruise missile which can be released from Fighter aircrafts like Mig-29 or Sukhoi-30 .

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Feb 2015 09:33

Here is the old report for those engines. 0.5 Million each.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 050_1.html

the engines for India with 500 kg thrust would be developed on the basis of TRDD-50MT engine, originally designed for Soviet cruise missiles. Its flight resource would be enhanced from the present 45 minutes to tens of hours," Kommersant quoted deputy commercial director (exports) of NPO Saturn Igor Grigorie as saying.

All aspects of transfer of license for production of TRDD-50MT are under study by FSVTS, which may not give its nod because of New Delhi's plans to develop a cruise missile with the range of 600 km and capable of carrying 350 kg payload on the basis of Lakshy

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Feb 2015 09:57

Only Russian helps ( with money payment of course) India with critical items like that. We can not expect this kind of help with any other nation. Hope NM and present GOI keep that always in mind before thinking of doing anything harmful to this critical relationship.

sarang · Post by **sarang** » 10 Feb 2015 13:19

Post by Kailash » 10 Feb 2015, 05:43

It only says under development contrary to the heading "Soon".

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 10 Feb 2015 13:54

Cybaru wrote:All aspects of transfer of license for production of TRDD-50MT are under study by FSVTS, which may not give its nod because of New Delhi's plans to develop a cruise missile with the range of 600 km and capable of carrying 350 kg payload on the basis of Lakshy

So these DDMs are discussing either news which is untrue and half a decade old, or exposed something which could get Russians in trouble for violating the MTCR.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Feb 2015 14:13

Kailash wrote:
Cybaru wrote:All aspects of transfer of license for production of TRDD-50MT are under study by FSVTS, which may not give its nod because of New Delhi's plans to develop a cruise missile with the range of 600 km and capable of carrying 350 kg payload on the basis of Lakshy
So these DDMs are discussing either news which is untrue and half a decade old, or exposed something which could get Russians in trouble for violating the MTCR.

As if the Russians arent in enough trouble ..they would rather have friends than MTCR !!

anyways India is going to be IN mtcr than out ..MTCR will not work if india decides to export its missiles including Prahaar that will be game changer !!!

So expect India to be in MTCR the moment a decision to export its missiles is made

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 11 Feb 2015 16:07

Bheeshma wrote:
ramana wrote:KaranM,
Is there a table of A-I thru A-V payload weights? Could be interesting.
Just from wiki
A1- 1 ton
A2- 1 ton
A3-1.8 ton
A4-1 ton
A5- 1.5 ton

Not sure if these are real or just A5 is 5000 km range type data.

Wiki Says A III can carry 2490 KG at 4500 KM. Operational missile weight is 22 tons.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 11 Feb 2015 16:34

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake

#PlaneCarnival #Tarmak007Exclusive | Nirbhay 2nd launch video: http://youtu.be/QE3XJ56GIrc | Aerial view (0:48 secs onwards) shot from Jaguar.

[youtube]QE3XJ56GIrc&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Feb 2015 17:03

beauty

ashvin · Post by **ashvin** » 11 Feb 2015 17:22

Amazing footage!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Feb 2015 17:44

variants of this bird can be used for naval strikes, air to sea/land.. the possibilities are endless

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 11 Feb 2015 17:48

Amazing SDRE tech. Desi scIeNce with waypoint navigation!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 11 Feb 2015 17:54

Stunning video...Thanks for putting it up.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Feb 2015 19:31

Very stable flight. Its like flying a pencil. Shows the difficulty.

When the pitch over maneuver happens the text says thrust vectoring. Is that so or is it the wings and aft control surfaces maneuver? The former would imply smart booster. More complex.

Thanks for the video.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 11 Feb 2015 19:42

Noobie question: What happens in stormy weather?

From my very noobie reasoning I think it will weather a storm.

Obviously the missile has FCS that stabilizes it, its center of gravity is infront of the wings, which is where the lifting force comes into play ( this is info from looking at the video) and that means that it is designed to dive quickly with a slight twist of the horizontal stabilizer which will turn the missile into diving position because of the moments of force.

The control surfaces are made small for a reason (its a missile), it may also help since any strong wind wont throw it into instability (as they will have rather small effect if they are not in the direction of the missile).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Feb 2015 20:11

looking at the exhaust of the nirbhay, I could periodically see pulses of orange flame and sometimes there is no flames...I know the engine is a turbofan ...

could it be some form of "afterburner" also ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Feb 2015 20:11

LokeshC wrote:Noobie question: What happens in stormy weather?

Sorry. This I can't resist. Please ignore unless curious

There was a man from Madras
whose balls were made of brass
In stormy weather
they clashed together
And lightning came out of his ass

I did see wisps of flame coming from the exhaust

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 11 Feb 2015 20:12

shiv wrote: There was a man from Madras
whose balls were made of brass
In stormy weather
they clashed together
And lightning came out of his ass

you little British rascal you!

just kidding onleeee.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 11 Feb 2015 21:41

Did notice the flame out of its ..

For a missile that is about to wreck havoc, the behavior during its flight is quintessentially SDRE. It appears so peaceful, so calm, as if it is meditating. It is surreal!

Pranams SDRE scientists!!!

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 11 Feb 2015 21:53

At 0:46 you can see the wings deploy. Beautiful and serene, even when its behind is occasionally on fire (*ducks for cover*

)

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Feb 2015 21:58

Those flickers happen with small turbofans.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 11 Feb 2015 23:58

Sid wrote:
nik wrote:That target aircraft is a Rafale @ 200 million apiece. Even the thought of it been painted by any radar makes me nervous, imagine if we lost one during training. It's like losing your retirement savings in one shot.
Well C-130 was 300 Mil a piece, but guess we got over it very quickly.

The fact is we cannot win a attrition warfare with imported stuff.

That was special pricing for Brown men i.e. Mr Browne. Infact every US purchase was like 2~3x list price in the name of support and maintenance contracts. Big customers get discounts off list price typically but did notice that we went for top of the line equipment and sensor mix on these acquisitions.

It's like buying a car, getting all the options results in 2x price of baseline version. Sane folks go for baseline model but sanity was in short supply under prior regime anyways.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 12 Feb 2015 00:38

indranilroy wrote:Those flickers happen with small turbofans.

Yup, saw similar flicker on turbofans installed on high end RC planes.

But that flicker was during initial startup phase only, once it attained required RPM it was all clear!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Feb 2015 05:33

They need to make it flameless in domestic engine.
It will show up more in irst sensors .
Russian engines always have some boo boo or other.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 12 Feb 2015 07:09

Singha wrote:They need to make it flameless in domestic engine.
It will show up more in irst sensors .
Russian engines always have some boo boo or other.

Should be fixable.

Really interested in the Agni I+. Have a feeling it will be a tricky one for ABMs. Higher payload than Shourya for city busting. We can use it to checkmate Iran for the next couple decades.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Feb 2015 07:28

Chasing a cruise missile and giving us such a crisp video itself is a technology !!

The flickering Part !!

All Copyright Tarmak 007

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Feb 2015 07:35

Singha wrote:They need to make it flameless in domestic engine.
It will show up more in irst sensors .
Russian engines always have some boo boo or other.

Nope Singha sir, those flames don't have extra IR signature. It is just incomplete combustion. If there is no flicker, it is a sign of smooth airflow to the engine and the smooth functioning of the engine. Although these kind of flickers are not ideal, they hardly affect the performance in anyway. If it were continuous throwing flames, that would be a different thing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Feb 2015 07:38

the flicker probably means too much fuel is being injected to be burnt clean inside the combustion chamber?...so fuel rich mixture is producing that in the exhaust zone. but at steady speed, a constant fuel flow would be the norm and such effects should not happen in a tfta engine.

gotta love these two bright boys and their backyard engine. ppl learn more doing these things than a semester with textbooks.their casing is just 3 tins back to back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trcnd7qs-S8

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Feb 2015 07:50

Cameras pick up IR better than the human eye and cameras do not always detect exactly the same wavelengths as the human eye. A video camera with an invisible infra red focusing beam when pointed at its own image in the mirror will often show a glow from the focusing beam. So seeing flames in the exhaust on the video does not mean much.

Besides - flame and sometime little glowing things can be seen coming out of non after burning jet exhausts (Including civilian airliners) After all the temp inside the engine is over 1200 deg C and the gas at the exhaust has had little time to cool.

This video of AL 31 after 1:08 shows flame in the exhaust pipe without afterburning. The AB kicks in later
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsJyC5g4IBo&NR=1

This video from 3:36 also
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moX6Lps9w70