Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

[Philip]

No aspersions on any of the former contenders,but the IAF/MOD messed up the contest by including both light and med. classes of fighters.That the LCA has failed to meet the plan to replace MIG-21s as intended is a fact.Former Prog. Dir. AM PR and other AMs connected with the programme now say that it will take two decades to meet planned LCA production. With 14 sqds. of MIG-21s and MIG-27s being retd. from nxt yr. where are the replacements going to come from? The MOD/GOI will buy whatever LCAs can be produced,particularly the Mk-2,which has yet to fly,get tested and enter production,when in the next decade nobody as of now knows for sure.Even now the IAF says that training and maintenance manuals are unavailable.AS many of us have said before,the best manner in which falling numbers could've been met was to buy /build more MIG-29/35s or select the Gripen,which had nothing going for it given its resemblance to the LCA.

Had the price of the Rafale remained reasonable,one could've sealed the deal a long time ago.It was fairly selected by the IAF.The latest reports that it was actually more expensive than the EF may be an attempt to derail the deal or expose an aberration. The open statements by the DM that the MKIs cost half the price of one Rafale has shaken the French up. India and the IAF do have a plan B.The French must either bite the bullet hard or pack up their belongings. The swift deals with Egypt and Qatar (on the horizon) could be the urgent attempt by the French to save Dassault and dangle some bait at us.

PS:The curious deal post hints at underhand activities.What to me was the most curious of all was the fact that the "R" co.,which hasn't even built a paper plane would be the Indian manufacturer/collaborator/whatever.That fact alone spelt asked big Qs.

The day the MKI fires a BMos,the attractiveness of the MKI vs Rafale will only increase. That etst is scheduled for March.The "Ides of March" anyone? Who will get stabbed in the back? One sure hopes it isn't the Indian people!

[sooraj]

Will Modi's visit to France secure Rafale deal???

[Viv S]

Now being reported by the Financial Express.

Dassault may abandon $20-bn MMRCA deal

By: Huma Siddiqui | Bangalore | February 17, 2015

Dassault Aviation, maker of Rafale fighter jet which is in exclusive negotiations with the ministry of defence for close to three years now for the $ 20-billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, may have to abandon the plan over lingering issues.

This is despite the fact that bagging the MMRCA tender, which envisages purchase of 126 aircraft with an option for buying 63 more, is critical for Dassault. Contrary to initial expectations of a quick contract signature, Dassault-MoD negotiations have dragged for over two years.

As reported by FE earlier, cost has been an issue since the start besides the company’s reluctance to transfer sophisticated technology to India and meet offsets requirements. In the last few months, questions have been raised by Dassault regarding the role of HAL in the MMRCA.

Moreover, the French company is unwilling to be held liable for the quality, timely and on-cost delivery of the 108 aircraft to be license produced at HAL. This is in breach of tender conditions and has emerged as a major threat to speedy contract conclusion.

Highly placed sources disclosed to FE that after being declared as L1, the French company was very much aware that as per the RFP it had responded to, “state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics was the designated production agency.” The French company had offered 22% work share for HAL at the initial stage of negotiations, as its response to the RFP was influenced by a planned partnership with Reliance Industries, that planned to expand into aerospace and defence in 2011.

Talking to FE, Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran, senior adviser to HAL’s management, said: “Guaranteeing HAL’s work is not the issue, but that the French are being “rigid” and refusing to stand behind the integrity of the design.”

Matheswaran, who was involved in drafting the original RFP for the deal, added: “Unfortunately, the French don’t want to be accountable in any way. However, the original equipment manufacturer has to stand guarantee with respect to design and integrity of design. By constantly denying to take responsibility for production of the 108 aircraft at HAL, the French are trying to get away from the OEM’s responsibility.” Also, it is about technology transfer, which the French are loath to do.

Financial Express

In either case, we'll know for sure by April when the PM visits France. At least the A330 MRTT deal can be expected to be formally signed on the visit.

[pankajs]

Shooklaw is not the most neutral person around ... FWIW

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.co.nz/2015/0 ... ad-as.html
Rafale proposal “effectively dead” as Dassault bid not cheapest

Even as three Rafale fighters line up in Bengaluru for eye-popping aerobatics displays at the Aero India 2015 exhibition this week, senior ministry of defence (MoD) sources say the proposal to buy the French fighter is “effectively dead”.

The reason: During three years of negotiations between Dassault and MoD officials in the so-called “contract negotiation committee” (CNC), it has emerged that Dassault’s bid was actually higher than that of the Eurofighter Typhoon, not lower as the MoD had announced on January 31, 2012.

Dassault had submitted a sketchy commercial bid, and when the CNC obtained details from the French company to arrive at the actual cost of the Rafale, the figures added up to significantly more than had originally been estimated.

This confusion is due partly to MoD inexperience with “life cycle costing” (LCC). The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the MoD was awarding a contract based on LCC. This meant the winner would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was cheaper to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.

“An inexperienced MoD, working off incomplete and sketchy details provided by Dassault, had incorrectly adjudged the Rafale cheaper. Now, after three years of obtaining clear figures from the French, we find India would be paying significantly more than had been initially calculated,” says an official in the CNC.

Contacted for comments, the MoD has not responded.

The MoD has been backing away from the Rafale for two months now. On December 30, 2014, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar admitted for the first time there were “complications” in the negotiations with Dassault, and outlined the IAF’s alternatives.

“The Sukhoi-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs”, said Parrikar.

Last week the prime minister was pointedly distanced from the Rafale. On Saturday, an unusual MoD press release denied a newspaper report that the PM would fly in the Rafale during the Aero India 2015 air show at Bangalore this week.

“It is clarified that there is no plan for the Prime Minister Shri Narendra Modi to fly in any fighter jet. The news item is incorrect, misconceived and is not based on facts”, stated the MoD.

This is the second time the MoD has gone wrong in LCC evaluations. As Business Standard reported on Saturday (“Defence ministry official questions whether Pilatus was cheapest trainer”, February 14) an internal MoD noting last month sharply questioned the award of a contract for 75 PC-7 Mark II basic trainer aircraft to Swiss company, Pilatus. There too, the LCC was calculated incorrectly.

Significantly, that noting, signed by AR Sule, the MoD’s “Finance Manager (Air)”, who handles financial aspects of military aircraft purchases, alerts the defence minister to issues with LCC evaluation in the MMRCA tender.

Sule writes: “The issue (with LCC calculations) may be brought to the notice of the RM (Raksha Mantri) as two high value cases of IAF based on LCC model are at CFA (competent financial authority) approval stage.”

Dassault’s impending loss, however, will not be the Eurofighter Typhoon’s gain. Eurofighter GmbH has maintained an expensive presence in Delhi for the last three years, just in case Dassault’s bid encounters trouble. But Parrikar has made it clear that procurement procedures do not permit the second-placed vendor, i.e. Eurofighter GmbH, to be awarded the contract in place of the “preferred vendor”, i.e. Dassault.

Dassault was adjudged winner of the MMRCA tender through a two-stage process. In the first stage the IAF ruled out on April 27, 2011 four of the six competing fighters. Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG, and the Russian MiG-35 were adjudged not to have met the IAF’s performance requirements.

In the second stage, the commercial bids of the remaining two vendors --- Dassault’s Rafale, and the Eurofighter Typhoon --- were compared on a “life cycle basis” to select the lower bidder. On January 31, 2012, the Rafale was chosen as the cheaper of the two options, a decision that the MoD is now walking away from.

A senior official familiar with the Rafale contract negotiations says, “Given the value of this contract, it was always going to be scrutinised in detail. No MoD official is willing to endorse a Rs 100,000 crore contract with Dassault when it seems as if Rafale is not even the cheapest option”.

This means the IAF would have to look elsewhere for fighters to increase its depleted squadrons from the current 35 to the authorized 45 (with 18 fighters in each squadron).

Besides enlarging its Sukhoi-30MKI fleet from the 272 fighters HAL will build by 2018, the IAF could order more indigenous Tejas Mark I fighters, over and above the 40 now on order from HAL. The IAF could also intensify its co-development of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) with Sukhoi.

For Dassault, an Indian cancellation would be a serious blow. The French air force and navy, dogged by budget cutbacks, have reduced their planned Rafale numbers from 310 to just 180. On Friday, Egypt announced it would buy 24 Rafale fighters, becoming the first and only overseas buyer for Dassault.

"India will take longer than Egypt," said Eric Trappier, the CEO of Dassault on Friday.

But it does sound about right given the recent news flows.

Rafale expensive and trying to wriggle out of contractual obligations (MOD version; Party that controls the money) and FGFA getting renewed attention. Seems the immediate (10 years i.e by 2025) future for IAF is SU30 MKI + LCA 1 & 2 + FGFA.

IF LCA/HAL/ADA gets these 10 years they will be over the hump.

[Sumeet]

But Rafale and Euro are our best bets. We have to move forward to get the planes otherwise our defense will get affected. Off course in parallel do all investigations etc but for India's sake don't stall the MMRCA.

Mupallaji
MMRCA ( in current form) doesn't give India any edge over PRC . Its an overkill against TSP . Use of AirPower in Indo-China is still accepted as 'escalatory' by both sides ( ever wonder complete silence on missiles & artillery ).

Since FGFA & AMCA are both vaporware as of now, Rafale F3+/F4 and Super Sukhoi backed by force multipliers and complex IADS are our best bets against PLAAF.

Don't forget that for first half of this century even the most powerful Navy (US) will also be flying equal if not more number of Rafale type/4+ Gen a/c aka Super Hornet that will be kept alive with multiple upgrades alongside F-35 & Growlers.

Nothing is ever an overkill in a war. You always send your soldiers with best you have and can buy. When we inducted MKI it was an overkill against PAF as well.

[member_28640]

Since FGFA & AMCA are both vaporware as of now, Rafale F3+/F4 and Super Sukhoi backed by force multipliers and complex IADS are our best bets against PLAAF.

Don't forget that for first half of this century even the most powerful Navy (US) will also be flying equal if not more number of Rafale type/4+ Gen a/c aka Super Hornet that will be kept alive with multiple upgrades alongside F-35 & Growlers.

Nothing is ever an overkill in a war. You always send your soldiers with best you have and can buy. When we inducted MKI it was an overkill against PAF as well.

India is rapidly developing its radar + electronics in the LCA and consequently the Mki and others.
Though a plane-by-plane comparision of rafale vs either one of the planes is (on paper afaik atleast) victory to the rafale. But the LCA + mki combo for the same price offers more quantity and thats a luxury we would be better off with.
As you said

Nothing is ever an overkill in a war.

[Kartik]

Kartik - I don't think anybody doubts the capability of the Rafale (superb fighter) or would abuse the French. Though there is a fair bit of ire directed at all the spin emerging blaming it all on India etc whilst trying to sneak in RIL. The bigger issue is how could Dassault & the Indian MOD bungle this up so badly. How could Dassault provide sketchy info for such a bid & yet, the CNC rushed to declare it as L1 & then, proceeds to find out its not L1.

Karan, we don't know how authentic that "source" that claimed that the Rafale is not L1 anymore really is..

and how can we be sure that Airbus wouldn't have discovered, perhaps without any malice on their part, that their costing wasn't as detailed as it needs to be when a deal is actually being negotiated?

I mean, if you've responded to RFPs, then you'd know that a bunch of assumptions go into those responses..you have a back and forth with the company you're responding to, and based on those you prepare your RFP response. I've been a part of a couple of big RFPs where quite a bit of cost got added on later because the scope hadn't been very clearly outlined in the initial RFP. And I know another RFP where my company assumed that the deal would be just the tip of a massive iceberg and proposed much more than what was expected and consequently lost out to a much cheaper bid by a smaller firm.

I'm not saying that Dassault may not have deliberately withheld info knowing that the tender rules would mean that the MoD would have almost no leeway to start negotations with the L2 vendor, but I'm saying that I'd expect Airbus (or EADS as it was then) to have done the same.

And if a direct comparison were to be done, the Rafale program has been managed a lot better than the Typhoon program with its multiple partner nations all tugging in different directions with different needs and funding.

[NRao]

Since FGFA & AMCA are both vaporware as of now, Rafale F3+/F4 and Super Sukhoi backed by force multipliers and complex IADS are our best bets against PLAAF.

The cost and the games Dassault has played will ground the Rafale in India.

Rightly so.

[JTull]

Repeat after me.

Rafale deal is dead!
Long live the King!
LCA for MMRCA!

[Philip]

Joke going around: Desi name which was chosen for the Raffy the "Reliance"!

[Karan M]

Karan, we don't know how authentic that "source" that claimed that the Rafale is not L1 anymore really is..

and how can we be sure that Airbus wouldn't have discovered, perhaps without any malice on their part, that their costing wasn't as detailed as it needs to be when a deal is actually being negotiated?

I mean, if you've responded to RFPs, then you'd know that a bunch of assumptions go into those responses..you have a back and forth with the company you're responding to, and based on those you prepare your RFP response. I've been a part of a couple of big RFPs where quite a bit of cost got added on later because the scope hadn't been very clearly outlined in the initial RFP. And I know another RFP where my company assumed that the deal would be just the tip of a massive iceberg and proposed much more than what was expected and consequently lost out to a much cheaper bid by a smaller firm.

I'm not saying that Dassault may not have deliberately withheld info knowing that the tender rules would mean that the MoD would have almost no leeway to start negotations with the L2 vendor, but I'm saying that I'd expect Airbus (or EADS as it was then) to have done the same.

And if a direct comparison were to be done, the Rafale program has been managed a lot better than the Typhoon program with its multiple partner nations all tugging in different directions with different needs and funding.

Kartik, if it was one report we could have shrugged it off. Multiple reports, all from different sides & political affiliations, all basically saying the same thing. That Dassault's reply to the RFP was vague & price of items later factored in, moved the costs to 2x. Then the entire issue of why & how such information was not adequately vetted yet, the winner announced puts the issue squarely on MOD as well.
Point is if price goes up, the original price on which L1 was declared automatically becomes moot. Don't know how the MOD will get around this.

[Singha]

I wonder what qualifies the officials in the MOD, to quantify and vet the LCC costs provided by dassault?

do they have serving iaf officers from maintenance stream on the panel? do they have independent aviation experts like retired iaf officials on the panel? HAL people ?

I would have no idea how to do it based on reading a few books.

[Karan M]

They had the IAF guys involved in drawing up the RFP and also involved IIM-A and many others in the LCC model which IAF was very happy about, given the scale of the task and how it was to be done. I think implementation in terms of data fidelity is where the issues occurred, if we assume first time effort and keep corruption concerns etc out.

[nirav]

They had the IAF guys involved in drawing up the RFP and also involved IIM-A and many others in the LCC model which IAF was very happy about, given the scale of the task and how it was to be done. I think implementation in terms of data fidelity is where the issues occurred, if we assume first time effort and keep corruption concerns etc out.

If the media reports are accurate, its a terrible job by the IIM-A folks and others. Reason given was 'no experience with LCC calcs prior to this' ..

Its becoming a recurring thing. Botched up contracts signed by the govt, and then CAG publically blasts it and gives directives.

How about including a CAG team while the contract itself is being framed and negotiated ?

Also, im a little confused about which version is being negotiated. Certain Media reports quoted that the price has doubled to ~ 20 billion dollars as a result of the time delay and other factors.

Is that price for baseline Rafale or the F3 version ?

if its for the baseline model then indeed sealing the deal would be total 'haraam haraam'.


cause in 15/20 years timeframe, we will then start negotiating to bring the jets to F3/F+ standard at a cost of another 20 billion or so dollars.

Its really tragic that one line of DPP is blocking our options, either this mad deal or more MKIs.

The intent of re tendering rule is to ensure the L2,L3 dont jeopardize the contract.
Seems DPP missed provisioning for switching to L2 IF L1 jeopardizes the damn contract !

[darshhan]

There was tremendous miscalculation on Dassault's part. They thought that by bribing Italian queen they would be allowed to conduct daylight robbery in India(which is what the rafale deal is). For god's sake Rs 100,000 cr for 126 fighter planes. What the hell are Dassault executives thinking? Do they want Indian taxpayers to foot the bill for its lazy workforce and for their regular supply of mistresses and champagne. Forget the deal which actually screams "SCAM". I want Dassault to be blacklisted for next 10 years for bribery of Indian Decision makers.

Saalon ko laat mar ke bhagana chhahiye.

[Indranil]

Karan, we don't know how authentic that "source" that claimed that the Rafale is not L1 anymore really is..

and how can we be sure that Airbus wouldn't have discovered, perhaps without any malice on their part, that their costing wasn't as detailed as it needs to be when a deal is actually being negotiated?

I mean, if you've responded to RFPs, then you'd know that a bunch of assumptions go into those responses..you have a back and forth with the company you're responding to, and based on those you prepare your RFP response. I've been a part of a couple of big RFPs where quite a bit of cost got added on later because the scope hadn't been very clearly outlined in the initial RFP. And I know another RFP where my company assumed that the deal would be just the tip of a massive iceberg and proposed much more than what was expected and consequently lost out to a much cheaper bid by a smaller firm.

I'm not saying that Dassault may not have deliberately withheld info knowing that the tender rules would mean that the MoD would have almost no leeway to start negotations with the L2 vendor, but I'm saying that I'd expect Airbus (or EADS as it was then) to have done the same.

And if a direct comparison were to be done, the Rafale program has been managed a lot better than the Typhoon program with its multiple partner nations all tugging in different directions with different needs and funding.

You wrote exactly what I was thinking.

[Sagar G]

Sagar, that CVC notification is perfect bureaucratese gone nuts. It completely ignores real world negotiations and importance of keeping lines of comm open with L1 and L2 both. It presumes intent of corruption w/own decision makers & then goes onto penalize any and every attempt to seek a better deal for India as "not done". Retender it says, when the basic tender itself would have taken eons. Buy minimum L1 it says, ignoring both EOQ and economies of scale. No wonder we are in this mess.

Saar I disagree the CVC circular makes perfect sense.

For example lets take the MMRCA saga, if as per you the price negotiation is done with both L1 and L2 then first of all there is no clarity about who won the tender since at the end of a tender opening and technical evaluation you have to declare a winner for the tender. Now since there is no clarity of who is the winner as comm lines are open with both L1 and L2 then this itself beats the logic behind choosing a L1 i.e. declaring a winner. Since the logic behind choosing a L1 is defeated so lets take the case of "L1" being awarded the tender based on "negotiations". Immediately "L2" will shout KARRAPTION KARRAPTION, CHOLBE NAA cases will be promptly filed in court and as usual the tender will hang indefinitely, plus no political party in power wants to give opposition any chance to throw muck on it and any opposition wet dreams about such GAWD given opportunities. If the tender goes to "L2" then "L1" repeats the cycle. Now try and visualize the complexities with more eligible vendors and think about the scenario when GoI will be negotiating with L1, L2, L3, L4..............Ln at the same time and god forbid the consequences if one is declared winner

I see perfect logic behind what CVC says and yes there is ample chance of corruption during price negotiation with L1 (I don't have to educate you about the grey world of defence you already know more than I do) plus the CVC must have come across many such cases during investigation that he chose to give out such an order and I don't see anyone from goberment complaining about it being any hindrance.

Also negotiation isn't totally banned per se but only allowed under certain terms and conditions which are,

(i) As post tender negotiations could often be a source of corruption, it is directed that there should be no post-tender negotiations with L-1, except in certain exceptional situations. Such exceptional situations would include, procurement of proprietary items, items with limited sources of supply and items where there is suspicion of a cartel ormation. The justification and details of such negotiations should be duly recorded and documented without any loss of time.

If your case (such as MMRCA) is fulfilling these criterias then negotiate as much as you can provided you are ready to document the same i.e. auditable

We must also understand before castigating the CVC circular that Government has to work under rules and regulations and it cannot be "as I wish" kind of deal. So it's important to draw up rules within the boundary of which GoI will work sometimes (mostly) the rules become a hindrance but that's how it is so either you support a rule by law or a rule by Khujli (Welcome to Jhuggi Basti capital Delhi )

[arthuro]

Kartik wrote:
Karan, we don't know how authentic that "source" that claimed that the Rafale is not L1 anymore really is..

and how can we be sure that Airbus wouldn't have discovered, perhaps without any malice on their part, that their costing wasn't as detailed as it needs to be when a deal is actually being negotiated?

I mean, if you've responded to RFPs, then you'd know that a bunch of assumptions go into those responses..you have a back and forth with the company you're responding to, and based on those you prepare your RFP response. I've been a part of a couple of big RFPs where quite a bit of cost got added on later because the scope hadn't been very clearly outlined in the initial RFP. And I know another RFP where my company assumed that the deal would be just the tip of a massive iceberg and proposed much more than what was expected and consequently lost out to a much cheaper bid by a smaller firm.

I'm not saying that Dassault may not have deliberately withheld info knowing that the tender rules would mean that the MoD would have almost no leeway to start negotations with the L2 vendor, but I'm saying that I'd expect Airbus (or EADS as it was then) to have done the same.

And if a direct comparison were to be done, the Rafale program has been managed a lot better than the Typhoon program with its multiple partner nations all tugging in different directions with different needs and funding.

+1

France in 'final stage' of talks to sell Rafale jets to Qatar

Febb 17 (R-euters) - France is in the "final stage" of negotiations to sell up to 36 Rafale warplanes to Qatar, a senior French source involved in the discussions said on Tuesday.
Manufacturer Dassault Aviation is also in talks aimed at supplying 16 of the multirole combat jets to Malaysia and has resumed discussions over potential fighter sales to the United Arab Emirates, the source said. "The discussions (with Qatar) are at the final stage," the source said, asking not to be identified because of the sensitivity of the discussions.
Dassault Aviation declined to comment.
Analysts say the French company was boosted this week by a long-awaited first export deal for the Rafale with Egypt, but is likely to face intense competition for further sales as European, U.S. and Russian rivals step up export campaigns.
The UAE publicly rebuffed an offer to supply 60 Rafale jets in 2011, calling the proposal "uncompetitive and unworkable".

http://www.*******.com/article/2015/02/17/dassault-rafale-idUSL5N0VR3Y320150217

[JTull]

We've often discussed how MoD officials didn't adequately negotiate purchases in the past which lead to OEMs screwing us later on IPR, servicing, tech transfers, raw materials, etc. This time the documentation was so detailed and thorough that Dassault couldn't hoodwink into a contract. Yes, we've over committed to the L1, but better realise the mistakes now than once we've signed on the line. With LCA coming along well and Su-30MKI production in full swing, alternatives are available. As of today, Dassault needs us more than we need them.

[bodhi]

How Rafale is killing the air force's future

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/defen ... 150217.htm

Shooklaw also putting his wieght behind the FGFA

[Paul]

He wants to clear space for JSF

[Cosmo_R]

He wants to clear space for JSF

I think he's clearing the space for the Russians from what I read in that article. I am not carrying a torch for the IAF brass but Shukla doesn't get that after umpteen years the IAF wants a real plane now not something that will be available (maybe) in 2022-24. So yeah, they would be entirely correct in funding the Rafale from their POV versus funding a R&D project.

[Vishnu]

Dassault CEO Eric Trappier's interview to me -

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/confiden ... dtv-740594

[Vishnu]

More quotes from the interview - these went used in the article above:

On whether Dassault will be able to certify manufacture of the Rafale here in India ...

"Yes, because we have a long experience with HAL, not only with Jaguar but also with the Mirage 2000 and we are under way with the Mirage 2000 upgrade and the first two Mirages are in France and will be in India very soon and we have a team here in HAL to prepare for the transformation of the Mirage 2000."

So what is the stumbling block now ...

"Now it is a matter of finalising the closure of the contract. We are in this discussion with the Ministry of Defence .

Are you costs over a lifetime better than your competitor who was shortlisted ?

"We are more than confident because its a commitment that the life cycle cost of the Rafale is entirely in line with what we gave in the answer to the RFP and we are totally compliant with the RFP of the government of India."

[SaiK]

If people are weighing away from Rafale, and shaking laws for FGFA, I would rather suggest shower more money into Kaveri 110kN and AMCA technologies. Money put in there is worth trillions in the future.

[srin]

More quotes from the interview - these went used in the article above:

On whether Dassault will be able to certify manufacture of the Rafale here in India ...

"Yes, because we have a long experience with HAL, not only with Jaguar but also with the Mirage 2000 and we are under way with the Mirage 2000 upgrade and the first two Mirages are in France and will be in India very soon and we have a team here in HAL to prepare for the transformation of the Mirage 2000."

So what is the stumbling block now ...

"Now it is a matter of finalising the closure of the contract. We are in this discussion with the Ministry of Defence .

Are you costs over a lifetime better than your competitor who was shortlisted ?

"We are more than confident because its a commitment that the life cycle cost of the Rafale is entirely in line with what we gave in the answer to the RFP and we are totally compliant with the RFP of the government of India."

Thanks Vishnu. Would be great to ask this question in a further interview with Rafale execs: how do they assess Rafale's chances against Chinese stealth fighters 20 years from now ?

[SaiK]

^you will always get positive response on such questions from the seller. they will assure you 50 years look ahead in securing our skies with Rafale.

[ramana]

srin, How can one answer about something in future which may or may not be there?
Your question will have multiple answers associated with probabilities.

[srin]

Ramana-sir, you're looking at it with a very engineering perspective. Too many factors that are outside anybody's control or knowledge. And I don't disagree at all.

The Dassault exec is a sales guy, and I'm curious to know what his answer would be, how he can spin it as beneficial to India. Curious to understand how he thinks of this deal. Answers to some questions (which have no right/wrong answers) will indicate with what mindset they are doing these negotiations.

[Cosmo_R]

srin, How can one answer about something in future which may or may not be there?
Your question will have multiple answers associated with probabilities.

It's an impossible question to answer so each response will start with "It depends..."

[Philip]

"The Ides of March"!
Raffy deal on hold till after March,says DM.

The Raffy is increasingly looking like Caesar ,waiting to be backstabbed by Brutus Parikkar cometh the Ides of March. The "insane" statements by Dassault cretins isn't winning friends,especially those at HAL. So what do the French want after all? That India buy only French built aircraft? Are we so incompetent? HAL has now started building Sukhoi MKIs at home,fully overhauling the same as well and desi material content has gone upto 70%.

In a report today in the DC,the BMos chief Mishra,said that the BMos NG which would be mated to the Sukhoi would have newer tech/components and the MKI would be able to carry "5" missiles! He also said that the current engine was sufficient and could be tweaked for the hyper version which would require newer materials to face the higher temps at that speed. With the news that talks are on for upgrading all our MKIs (BMos capable no doubt apart from other improvements),the Rafale is increasingly being seen as an ultra-expensive bottle of French stink.

India keeps $12 billion deal for Rafale fighter-jets on hold
Reuters | February 18, 2015,

Bengaluru: India will decide on the fate of a long-delayed deal for 126 Dassault Rafale fighter jets only after March, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Wednesday at the Aero India airshow in Bengaluru.

He declined to say when a final decision was likely on the contract, which was initially worth $12 billion or Rs 74,400 crore and could go up to $20 billion or Rs 124,000 crore.

The Rafale was picked in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. A final deal has been held up due to a stalemate over a crucial component of the deal.

Under the terms of the contract, the winning bidder will supply only 18 of the aircraft directly and the rest will be manufactured in India by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics.

Dassault, however, has been reluctant to provide guarantees for the aircraft that are produced in India.

"It would be clinically insane for Dassault to guarantee HAL-built planes. The only way forward for the program is to drop this absurd idea," said Richard Aboulafia, vice-president of analysis at aerospace and defence consultancy Teal Group.

Some Indian news reports have indicated that the deal could be in trouble.

A French source, however, said on Tuesday that this week's sudden and unexpected deal with Egypt for 24 Rafale jets could speed up several other sets of talks, including those in India.

[arthuro]

Confident Rafale Will Win $12 Billion Indian Air Force Deal: Dassault Chief to NDTV

[...] In an interview to NDTV, Eric Trappier, the CEO of Dassault Aviation, said that he expects to close the deal, and denied reports that that the life-cycle cost of the Rafale was higher than its competitors.
"We are more than confident because it's a commitment that the life cycle cost of the Rafale is entirely in line with what we gave in the answer to the RFP (Request for Proposal) and we are totally compliant with the RFP of the government of India," he said in Bengaluru.
The Dassault Rafale, which is the mainstay of the French Air Force and Navy, was selected by the Indian Air Force to meet its requirement for a state of the art multi-role fighter and was placed ahead of the Eurofighter Typhoon (built by a European consortium).

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/confiden ... dtv-740594

[arthuro]

Defence Ministry awaiting CNC report to finalise delayed Rafale deal: Parrikar

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) is expected to give its final report on acquisition of French fighter plane Rafale either by end of February of early March. The decision is not being dragged by the NDA government, he assured.

"I have asked for the report and not received yet. Until the detailed report is submitted, I will not be able to comment on the multi-billion dollar aircraft acquisition deal," Parrikar told reporters at the Aero India 2015, here today.

When asked about the three-year delay when the country needs modernisation of Indian Air Force and Rafale formed important part of it, he pointed out the NDA government had come to power only ten months ago. "I have asked the CNC to speed up the process of completion of the report. The CNC report is inevitable for the government to make final decision on the deal," he said.

"We are determined to strengthen our defence forces. But, we will also focus on maximising the use of the current availability of war planes. This is also important," he added.

He further added that there was no delay in the finalisation of the deal. The multi-role medium range combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal is valued at around $20 billion for supply of 126 fighter aircraft.

The defence minister also added the government is also in the process of tweaking the defence procurement policy to enable the small and medium sector enterprise get a better deal in the offset clauses. "We are aware of the problems faced by MSME sector. We also know that they can contribute handsomely to defence production and Make in India a bigger success," Parrikar said.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 540_1.html

Dassault Rafale MMRCA Deal Possible After March; Indian Minister

Indian defense minister, Manohar Parrikar made it abundantly clear today that Dassault Rafale is very much in the reckoning in the Indian MMRCA contract during a press briefing at Aero India 2015 Airshow.
Decision on the French fighter plane Rafale acquisition will have to wait till March for the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) final report, Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar said. "I am waiting for the CNC report and until a detailed report is not submitted it will be unable to comment on the MMRCA aircraft acquisition. I have asked the CNC to expedite the report. The report is inevitable for the ministry to make a final decision about the deal,” Parrikar said.
Today’s assertion by the Indian minister lays to rest speculation in various media that the deal could be abandoned due to insurmountable differences between the Indian and French sites.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/12211/ ... OTl-lpICWd

[arthuro]

Snecma and HAL to create a joint venture and build a new production facility in India

Aero India, Bangalore (India) – February 18, 2015. Snecma (Safran), a leading manufacturer of aircraft engines, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), a leading aerospace manufacturer, signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on January 28, 2015 in Bangalore to explore establishing a joint venture in India for the production of aero-engine parts. The MoU was signed by Mr. Bruno Durand, Vice President for Industrial Operations & Supply Chain of Snecma and Mr. Arunachalam Muthukumaraswami, General Manager of the Engine Division of HAL.

The proposed joint venture will initially focus on the manufacture of high-tech parts for the Dassault Rafale’s Snecma M88 engine, then subsequently contribute to other major aerospace projects of HAL & Snecma, in India and worldwide. Spanning over 30,000 square meters, the proposed joint venture’s new plant is expected to benefit from substantial investment by the two partners, providing it with state-of-the-art machinery and equipment.[...]

http://www.snecma.com/snecma-and-hal-to ... ,3496.html

[arthuro]

AERO INDIA: Combat-tested Rafales on show

The Dassault Rafale is one of the mainstays of this year’s flying and static display at the Aero India show in Bengaluru, with France sending three air force examples of the type to participate.
Despite the French manufacturer’s reported reservations about working with Hindustan Aeronautics to produce the Rafale indigenously, Dassault’s signage was liberally spiced with the theme of this year’s show: "Make in India".
The combat aircraft – one single-seat Rafale C and a pair of two-seat Bs – came to the show from the United Arab Emirates, from where they had recently conducted air strikes against Islamic State militants.[...]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ow-409190/

other:

Services on board on Chief of Defence Staff, says MoS Defence
[...] "there are no issues" [...]

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/460 ... staff.html

We will only accept the best Rafales: Minister
[...] He said efforts are on to thrash out the ‘pending concerns,' which according to him cannot be termed as ‘issues.' [...]

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-will-o ... 56029.html

[Karan M]

Its hilarious to see the spin each side gives to what DM said

"did not commit to the rafale deal, said only by march"
"categorically ruled out deal is dead, things will be known by march"

lol, media

[SaiK]

whatever, that pic of snecma MoU exchange above has a bottled-water vs. soda technology line crossing. interesting irony.

[RoyG]

We are negotiating well wrt to the Rafale deal. They know this is really their only chance to break into the market. I wouldn't be surprised if they caved. They know we have the Su-30 mki option.

[SaiK]

there is no caving here even if they sell it for no profit (which I seriously doubt). it is a question of the wants (what exactly we want)

[GeorgeWelch]

The "insane" statements by Dassault cretins isn't winning friends,especially those at HAL.

Richard Aboulafia isn't Dassault.