Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

pierce_k_brossnynn · Post by **pierce_k_brossnynn** » 11 Feb 2003 05:52

No, no bull! The FBW system was disabled (i.e. manual override) for the Cobra manoeuver. So, the IAF guy is right, the Cobra was performed without a computer in the loop.

Mohan Raju: the alpha/AOA delimiter is disabled; the system is not strictly mechanical.

In order to obtain its high level of maneuverability the Su-27 is designed to be longitudinally statically unstable. That means that if the aircraft was flown manually, it would immediately begin to oscillate in pitch, and the oscillation would rapidly become too great to rectify .That is why it was necessary to equip the aircraft with a computer-controlled flight control system (FCS). For the Su-27 this system designated SDU-27 (SDU stands for Remote Control System in Russian) combines conventional hydro-mechanical controls for the rudders, flaperons, and differential taileron movement with a quadraplex fly-by-wire (FBW) control of taileron movement for control in pitch. The FBW system also provides stability augmentation in roll and yaw. The system uses four computer-controlled channels for control in pitch and three channels for control in roll and yaw. Each computer is fed by a separate data source.

The system used in 1989 was not "pure" FBW as the above description indicates, but it was not a real mechanical system as well. It was an FBW, done Russian style.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 11 Feb 2003 07:26

Question for the lucky BRites who attended the Aero India 2003:

Did you guys watch the static and flying displays of the 3 AJTs (Hawk, L-159B, Mig-AT)? If so, what's your verdict (ranking)?

I am esp. interested in knowing about the latest version of Mig-AT. It is still not clear to me why the IAF so categorically rejected this aircraft. According to newspaper reports, the AT performed just as well in the flying displays as the other two at the air show. So what do you guys think?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Feb 2003 07:56

Allright, just finished watching the brahmos video. Not bad at all. Can be fired in salvo's against a group of targets.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 11 Feb 2003 08:13

BTW,
One fallout of the Lancer is this-Now the ANEs fire at any chopper...even casevac cheetahs which used to be spared earlier as they were carrying casualties.
After the lancer turned up with its weaponry,they fire first to be ont he safer side.

And IJTs for SKAT? No way can that be cleared.
Anyways,I see the rest of the BR gang actually did usefult hings like find out things unlike me who was just looking at birds and warbirds

Raj,will call u once i get to delhi tomorrow.somebody pls restart a br delhi meet thread

cheers
kaps

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 11 Feb 2003 09:05

SHiv_brasnan:

Mohan Raju: the alpha/AOA delimiter is disabled; the system is not strictly mechanical.

Okay, sorry, that's what I meant. And I'm sure that's what the IAF guy meant.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 11 Feb 2003 09:52

Originally posted by RajeevT:
Question for the lucky BRites who attended the Aero India 2003:

Did you guys watch the static and flying displays of the 3 AJTs (Hawk, L-159B, Mig-AT)? If so, what's your verdict (ranking)?

Hmmmm.. well all of them did similar things, I personally did not notice any difference maneuver-wise in these birds. But the L159 was the biggest of the lot abd the hawk the smallest (or so it seemed).

OT:
BTW, did anyone notice the amazing effect created by the trailing-edge/wing-tip vortices when the L159 did its thing?? It has to bee seen to be believed... (It was trailing white smokes from the wind tips)... and did you notice the smoke ring effect that happened some of the time? Was this the shedding of vortices phenomenon?

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Feb 2003 11:00

Originally posted by Rajesh:
Originally posted by Rangudu:
(From JDW:)

Aero India 2003: Air force on course to become 'lean and mean'
...
The IAF plans to reduce its 40-45 combat squadrons to around 30-35 units for "optimum use" through the select upgrade of some inventory platforms and the acquisition of new assets, such as the Su-30 MKI and Mirage 2000-5. The service's Su-30 MKI and Mirage 2000 squadrons also comprise part of India's nuclear deterrent force.
...

I had the distinct impression that the IAF wanted to increase to a strength of about 55 squadrons.

Div · Post by **Div** » 11 Feb 2003 11:01

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030206/168/37h43.html
French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, second left, looks at models of fighter jets during his visit to the international air show 'Aero India 2003' at Yallahanka airbase, 24 kilometers (15miles) north of Bangalore, India, Thursday, Feb. 6, 2003. Raffarin, who is on a three-day official visit to India, said on Thursday that Frances Airbus has won a contract to sell 43 passenger planes to Indian Airlines. Others are unidentified.(AP Photo/Siddharth Darshan Kumar)

Ashutosh · Post by **Ashutosh** » 11 Feb 2003 11:03

Originally posted by Div:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030206/168/37h43.html

Looks like the Rafale on the left has conformal fuel tanks.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Feb 2003 11:47

Originally posted by Harry:
I've uploaded some of my pics here,

http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/DCForumID2/6691.html

Wow ... so looks like LCA will also feature Elbit Display and Sight Helmet Systems (DASH) which Israeli AF uses for Python 4. Maybe the speculations can again begin about the possible planned acquisition of Python 4 AAM by IAF.

Ashutosh · Post by **Ashutosh** » 11 Feb 2003 11:51

Originally posted by srai:

Originally posted by Harry:
I've uploaded some of my pics here,

http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/DCForumID2/6691.html

Wow ... so looks like LCA will also feature Elbit Display and Sight Helmet Systems (DASH) which Israeli AF uses for Python 4. Maybe the speculations can again begin about the possible planned acquisition of Python 4 AAM by IAF.

Check which aircraft the Python4-equipped F-16 is killing!
Looks like an MKI to me!

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 11 Feb 2003 12:42

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 11 Feb 2003 13:34

Originally posted by Ashutosh:
Check which aircraft the Python4-equipped F-16 is killing!
Looks like an MKI to me!

It is an F-18 shooting at an MKI.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Feb 2003 14:37

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 11 Feb 2003 16:37

Something I found out about Holographic HUD's.. Hope it will help the members..

http://www.xflight.de/f16/pe_org_par_cec_hud.htm

http://www.fou.uib.no/fd/1996/h/404001/kap02.htm

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 11 Feb 2003 19:50

Rangudu,treat yourself to a beer.It was indeed the FC-1 which featured as the background of the Zhuk-F literature.

BTW guys,the Mig-27 upgrade is *not* being done in Bangalore(as reported by DDM)and only the Jags are being upgraded there.Mig-27s are being upgraded at Ozhar.

The LCH is scheduled to go through some extensive redesign and induction will be 2008 at the earliest.There is no Israeli connection or codevelopment in this project.

I've uploaded more pics,

LCH Gunner cockpit

Lockheed C-130J simulator

Sprewer UAV

SAPSAN-E optronic pod for Mig-29

Smart advertising by BAE ( quality heavily reduced for the sake of text )

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 11 Feb 2003 20:46

Shiv and Jagan - terrific pics.

Some specific questions:

Any indication of Akash/ Rajendra/ CAR capability in ATBM role ?

Any indication of manufacture of any air-to-air missiles or SAMs by BDL ?

Was there any news of Pechora upgradation or S-300/ S-400 Antey 2500 procurement ?

Is there to be a radar fitted during MiG-27 upgrade ?

Did DRDO or anybody give any hints as to Indian anti-missile plans or capabilites ?

The WLR - any performance data ? This actually has some implications for ATBM defence since the tracking of artillery shells is somewhat similar to tracking missiles.

I notice that the Do-228 was not a major feature - was it ? Any indication of it being fitted with that Israeli radar/ FLIR combo ?

Did anybody get a real close-up of the LCA missiles and weapons ?

Harry's pic was great.

Shiv, Jagan, Nitin, thanks for everything so far.

saint · Post by **saint** » 11 Feb 2003 21:11

http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/User_files/3e47bb6a5a8bd85d.jpg

LCA trainer having delta wings? or there is a wing redesign?

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 11 Feb 2003 21:24

good pix Harry. I was impressed by the huge flat-panel TV in background of Sapsan pod. someone is going to enjoy the worldcup in style.

the Bae ad is cheeky..the MKI is unarmed and looks like Hawk is protecting the MKI :whine:

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 11 Feb 2003 21:26

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:

the Bae ad is cheeky..the MKI is unarmed and looks like Hawk is protecting the MKI :whine:

Actually I am surprised that this has come to notice only now. This is quite an old ad, running for nearly an year and half (if not two) by now.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Feb 2003 21:51

The LCH is scheduled to go through some extensive redesign and induction will be 2008 at the earliest.There is no Israeli connection or codevelopment in this project.
[/QB]

Getting all confused. The newspapers are abound with talks of Israeli and Indian co-op for producing some kind of offshoot from dhruv. If its not LCH, what are they talking about. They even have a date of 2005 and seemingly army is going to order 60 of whatever is getting produced.

Need more info for all the new stuff happening to Dhruv and what kind of variants we expect to see.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 11 Feb 2003 22:21

The newspapers are abound with talks of Israeli and Indian co-op for producing some kind of offshoot from dhruv.

The Israelis are offering an upgraded version of the Dhruv for export since they're marketing it.The much sought after 'glass cockpit' of this version was unfortunately out of reach.

The Israelis however,have nothing to do with the LCH.Not with avionics,not with design,not anything.Though HAL promised to fly and induct it by last year blah..blah..the project is really far from completion and even the design itself has'nt really been finalised.5 years from now is the estimated service date.BTW All this is from the guy who designed the LCH.

SB king,

Any indication of manufacture of any air-to-air missiles or SAMs by BDL

Bharat Dynamics mentioned something about manufacturing the Matra MICA AAM in the future.At present,the following are manufactured,
</li>[*]MILAN and FLAME launcher</li>[*]Konkurs ATGM</li>[*]Thermal imaging sight for ATGMs</li>[*]Feild level test equipment and ATGM simulator</li>[*]Air target imitator (for Lakshya)</li>[*]Tow target (for Lakshya)</li>[*]JATO booster</li>[*]Small arms training simulator

Muns · Post by **Muns** » 11 Feb 2003 23:47

This thread has an information overload, a whiner antidote.
Can't believe so many projects have finally come to the fore...nothing but pride and thanks again to everyone for pics and videos. Some brilliant stuff....

BFSR : Awsome equipment, from the photo i can count 9 i think. Has Bel started production of these items and are they being distributed to the forces already.

WLR : Best pic by far : with news coming in that the first AN/TPQ 37 systems coming in at earliest by October 2004...shouldn't we go ahead with production and *crew this order.
Nitin has already said its passed all tests flawlessly?

Arjun : more positive developments? you are looking for comments from an Arjun crewman?
All we need now is a report for a mail in adress to receive our very own Arjun Kanchan armor. So i can finally go into the woods and experiance a simulated bear attack...please more.....another bone...

Again gr8 thread...

maz · Post by **maz** » 12 Feb 2003 00:38

Since 2001, a few Do228 were fitted with the Elta radar and Tamam? optotronics. This according to project engrs involved with the project. The program may be on halt now.

Vick · Post by **Vick** » 12 Feb 2003 00:42

Originally posted by maz:
Since 2001, a few Do228 were fitted with the Elta radar and Tamam? optotronics. This according to project engrs involved with the project. The program may be on halt now.

Why would it be halted now? In one of Jane's Navy Int. print version there was a full page advert for the Do-228 and the Israeli upgrade package. This was a year and a half ago or so.

That package seems better suited for the CG than the navy though.

maz · Post by **maz** » 12 Feb 2003 00:45

That is all I know. As Vick says, this package might be better suited for cG purposes. Who knows. Maybe priorities shifted.

maz · Post by **maz** » 12 Feb 2003 00:46

Did Alenia show the ATR42/72 MP/ASW plane? Did they announce a CG deal?

Nandai · Post by **Nandai** » 12 Feb 2003 00:47

Originally posted by Nikhil Shah:
What is the deal with inclined wheels on that truck?

I think thats part of TATRAs suspension technology, I have seen several pix of TATRA trucks with their wheels inclined like that.

http://www.tatra.cz/enff/konception/perov/

maz · Post by **maz** » 12 Feb 2003 00:48

What about the naval LCA? Any news on this plane?

What about the Mig29K2? Did u guys find out more stuff about this plane? Any pix of this?

Div · Post by **Div** » 12 Feb 2003 00:56

Praneet,

One of the (many) news reports mentions that the IA will get 2 'refurbished' WLRs from the US by this fall as a stop-gap(?).

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Feb 2003 01:47

Originally posted by Harry:

The LCH is scheduled to go through some extensive redesign and induction will be 2008 at the earliest.

That clears a lot questions about the design mock up which looked like something that was put up at the "last" minute (only because it did not possess some typical/common design features found on most attack helos).

Originally posted by Ashutosh:
Check which aircraft the Python4-equipped F-16 is killing!
Looks like an MKI to me!

That could be Su-35 also.

saint · Post by **saint** » 12 Feb 2003 01:50

By whatever logic say MKI was escaping the "first miss", how sure is python not going to miss the "second hit"

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 12 Feb 2003 01:51

Originally posted by Praneet_N:
[QB]This thread has an information overload, a whiner antidote.
Can't believe so many projects have finally come to the fore...nothing but pride and thanks again to everyone for pics and videos. Some brilliant stuff....

BFSR : Awsome equipment, from the photo i can count 9 i think. Has Bel started production of these items and are they being distributed to the forces already.

yes.11 were displayed iirc atAeroIndia for "impact".We initially imported 300 from Israel-see CAG-but now the standrad BFSR will be this one.Its better!

WLR : Best pic by far : with news coming in that the first AN/TPQ 37 systems coming in at earliest by October 2004...shouldn't we go ahead with production and *crew this order.
Nitin has already said its passed all tests flawlessly?

Yes.We are going ahead with production.

Arjun : more positive developments? you are looking for comments from an Arjun crewman?
All we need now is a report for a mail in adress to receive our very own Arjun Kanchan armor. So i can finally go into the woods and experiance a simulated bear attack...please more.....another bone...
Didnt understand that...
Look at it from my side.Dont want there to be any mistakes in any artcicle so that xyz can point fingers later at BR/BRM.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 12 Feb 2003 02:37

Dumb Question:

What is the white circle for on the WLR?

Muns · Post by **Muns** » 12 Feb 2003 03:03

Right, thanks Div and Nitin...bugger the refurbished or the new imports, but it sounds like we won't be able to produce initially for the demand hence import to make up the back log...

RajeevT as per Nitin's previous post here quote :
'The pic you see is of an operational radar and the white kinda covering-thats the radome to cover the phase shifters'.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 12 Feb 2003 03:13

india has around 20 divisions each with own artillery, plus 2 separate arty divs. some divs are split into indep armd brigades.

If we consider each brigade as smallest entity, dont we need a WLR unit per brigade ? or is the range enough to cover a whole division ? I suspect a compromise of 2 units per div.

that still needs 40 units basic; 15 in reserve; 15 to cover dispersed frontages; 5 for training.

75 WLR units and from US we are only getting 10 I think. each WLR unit should ideally have two radars to provide 24x7 coverage if need be and for redundancy.

BEL is going to be quite busy on this one.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Feb 2003 06:58

Someone asked about the naval LCA - so let me whine a bit before putting in my 2 paise.

Apart from being busy (with personal guests) during the airshow, the airshow was organised in such amanner that the stalls were being vitited by forces/tech people. So every time I went to a stall - eg an Israeli stall talk about the Derby or something - the boss would put a super junior on to us - who in turn would be busy watching out for IAF people whom he had to give priority to. And if I heard the "crackle" of a hi perf jet taking off (as Philip aptly described it) - I would have to run out holding camera/cover/brochures/hat like a man with dhoti and lota running from his morning crap because of a chasing dog.

I did not even see a mock up of an Astra thsi time - tho I may have missed it. The Indian tech stalls were big and widely represented and I got to speak to a few in the little time I had. Frankly - one needs at least 12 hours at such an airshow over 2-3 days to do SERIOUS justice - and even 3 hours of walking between stalls and running to see flying displays can get tiring.

So what has all this got to do with the Naval LCA? Well - there was a mock up but the people atthe stall were consistently busy. But the big information I thought I got was from a local radio interview of Air Marshal Rajkumar before theairshow - and he was asked "What next after the LCA?" and he said - "We are working on the Naval LCA". To me these words speak volumes. These guys are serious abou the naval LCA and you don't get serious about this unless you are serious about a whole lot of related stuff - including carriers I suppose.

I spoke to a guy at the Dassault stall and asked him if the IAF was buying the Rafale, and he said no but the Navy had looked at it and he said that looking at and buying are two different things. He also denied any deal about hundreds of Mirages - but mumbled something about an "ongoing relationship" for upgradation blah blah. He was more interested in telling Philip and me about a undoubtedly pretty French stealth UAV with twin 20Kg thrust engines and a 8 foot wingspan.

Speaking of pretty - there were plenty of IAF girls about, and the Russians as usual has brought some really cool wimmen to embellish their sales pitch, and ELBIT and others had local college beauties for the same purpose.

Does no one give passes to middle age baldies to help sales?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Feb 2003 09:40

I echo Shiv's views on the Natasha's,Lyudmilla's,Ivanas,etc,etc.Certainly these birds were equal showstoppers as their flying relatives outside!I thought that the time of the show could've been extended by another hour,opening half an hour earlier and closing half an hour later,as this time there was another new hangar for the BEL/Russian manufacturers.Almost every foreign chalet had the usual locusts and technix asking Qs,swiping handouts.We always let the IAF/service personnel first service,as many of them were being flown in specially from all over the country every day and didn't have the luxury of visiting the show for three days.Likewise,most of the cockpit simulators for new aircraft and upgrades were occupied by IAF/Navy pilots.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Feb 2003 10:03

Originally posted by philip fowler:
I echo Shiv's views on the Natasha's,Lyudmilla's,Ivanas,etc,etc.Certainly these birds were equal showstoppers as their flying relatives outside!

When I was younger, I didn't know what I was doing.

I spent Aero India 96 taking still photos of a/c. In 2001, I was visiting stalls and asking questions, In 2003 I was taking videos. By 2005 I will be mature enough to photograph ONLY the women at Aero India.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Feb 2003 10:58

Yep, Aero India 2003 was too big to cover in a single day. I would guess that atleast three days would be needed to cover all the exhibits, ignoring the air display every single day. I think we should have much better coordination the next time around, so each hanger is alloted two to three people to go around asking questions, collecting information etc. That way everything would get covered.

Another thing I noticed is that BEL/DRDO/HAL people were a lot more open and forthcoming with information than the last time around. That's good.