Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Feb 2015 14:25

the soln for cheap all-terrain mobility is easily available in licensing the basic M113 design , with indian drivetrain, engine and instrumentation.

the design is so old (but it works!) that amrika will likely waive the licensing fees!

imagining that we can house tens of divisions in lavish CV90 or Bradley type vehicles is just a dream

p.s. TSP will also be happy as it can do a ==

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Feb 2015 14:34

those are all tracked ICV's and IA has a tender ongoing to meet BMP replacement.

I was talking of wheeled APC's, far cheaper and needed by yesterday IMHO.

tata has a 8X8 APC called kestrel but it seems to me a gold plated version, unlikely IA can afford it in the numbers it needs.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Feb 2015 15:51

Rahul M wrote: VRDE has a 8X8 APC called kestrel but it seems to me a gold plated version, unlikely IA can afford it in the numbers it needs.

Fixed your post for you sir

The requirement for Kestrel today might only be 100 odd for UN missions, but it will balloon up. Since Kestrel is already there, FICV will get restricted to tracked variant only.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Feb 2015 20:56

thanks for reminding me of the VRDE connection. why so many foreign doodads in it though ?

in any case, it's a gold plated ICV, at 23+ tons, it might replace the ICV but it's not a rudimentary APC that IA can use to motorise its inf. div's on the cheap.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 06 Feb 2015 23:15

IIRC, A Mech Inf Battalion numbers at ~815 all ranks including the EME (Light Repair Det). I dont think it is a monetary issue only, considering they are ready to throw upwards to 50,000 crores at the MSC.

The FICV would be operated by three crew members and carry seven additional soldiers with combat loads. The FICV will facilitate protection from bullets fired by 14.5mm weapons. It will be amphibious and it must be air-transportable, which would imply a weight of ~20 tonnes.

I think we can even look at used BMP-2 IFV's for the medium term purely to induct then on the cheap. These second hand ones are usually available for less than 1 million/unit. If you look at what the IA itself envisions the FICV to perform, it is clear they have planned for mobility and amphibious capability over crew protection. We are unlikely to see CV-90 variants running around. The complete BMP fleet can undergo the existing overhaul as planned by MoD. Our mediocre BMP's have a big advantage on the Pak Army APC's which suffers from many disadvantages wrt employability.

1. The Pakistani M113 Talha/Saad has an 12.7mm AD primarily for self-defence against heptrs and not in a ground role. The gun itself is manned by the APC Commander who dismounts to conduct the assault much farther away from the objective much like Line Infantry. While they double on the crew carrying, they don't have organic ATGM capability and mortars variants.

This is very different to the BMP in the IA where the Driver and Gunner don't dismount and are tasked to outflank the enemy while the Riflemen conduct the assault. This task immensely increases its practicality to the Platoon Commanders who can choose the have his 4 BMP's lay down withering fire as he and his troops close in. Bottomline is, if the IFV environment is not going to change radically in the medium term as is visible then why should we hamper our own abilities. Modern ATGM's put similar vulnerabilities onto all Armoured vehicles this side of MBT's.

In this video, we can see the constituents of an BMP.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Feb 2015 23:23

Rahul M wrote:thanks for reminding me of the VRDE connection. why so many foreign doodads in it though ?

in any case, it's a gold plated ICV, at 23+ tons, it might replace the ICV but it's not a rudimentary APC that IA can use to motorise its inf. div's on the cheap.

If you are talking about the turret then that was TATA's idea to put it up on display with Kongsberg turret. The second prototype of WhAP-Kestrel will feature only an RCWS. The design is modular and can be modified into some 14+ variants. The overall weight is 26 tons and can be made amphibious at 22.5 tons by removal of some armour modules. I don't see why it can be labelled gold plated, it's just an offshoot of what was learnt with Abhay TD.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 09 Feb 2015 17:49

China border upgrade: 6 airports in Arunachal

Extract:

In a strategic move, the NDA government has commenced work to develop six airports in Arunachal Pradesh. The eastern border state, which China does not recognise as part of India, does not have a single operational airport at present and has just a heliport near Itanagar.

In fact, along the 3,488-km border with China, there are no operational airports at present. According to the proposal firmed up in a meeting between Civil Aviation Minister Ashok Gajapathi Raju Pusapati and chief ministers of northeastern states on January 29-30, the first of these airports at Tezu is to be made operational in January 2016. Raju was on a two-day visit on direction of the Prime Minister’s Office to the North-East to speed up airport development and improve air connectivity in a region considered extremely sensitive because of its international borders with China and internal security issues.

Apart from the airport at Tezu, efforts have also been renewed to resolve a long-standing dispute between the Central and state government over sharing the compensation for rehabilitation of 145 families to develop a second airport at Holangi. “After the new land acquisition act came into force, rehabilitation costs shot up to around Rs 650 crore from an earlier estimate of Rs 145 crore. The ministry is now actively looking to resolve the dispute,” an official said.

Besides, feasibility studies are being commissioned to set up four more airports at Tawang, Daparizo, Anini and Koloriang. The push to improve air connectivity in the region comes close on the heels of the Indian government easing norms to construct 1,800 km of roads and military facilities along its disputed border with China in September last year.

The seven operational airports in the North-Eastern region are Dibrugarh, Lilabari, Guwahati (Assam), Dimapur (Nagaland), Shillong (Meghalaya), Imphal (Manipur) and Agartala (Tripura).

A senior government official told The Indian Express, “China has vastly improved roads and is building or extending air strips on its side of the Line of Actual Control. India does not have a single operational airport in Arunachal Pradesh. The Civil Aviation Ministry, in a recent meeting with chief ministers of Northeastern states, has decided to set up six airports and several helipads in Arunachal Pradesh.”

Sources said growing Chinese influence has been hindering execution of several developmental projects in the region over the last few months. At Tezu, for one, an airport engineer was allegedly put behind bars for three months on trumped up charges by local authorities and the previous contractor was roughed up, delaying construction work. Moreover, according to reports, construction equipment was not permitted to be carried to the project site.

“The Tezu airport would have been commissioned by now but for protests by locals. One of the key issues on the minister’s agenda this time was to resolve problems so that work can resume at Tezu,” the official said. The minister has assured locals that wherever permissible, local labour would be engaged and local people employed at the airport. With a breakthrough achieved last week, Tezu, which is being built at a cost of Rs 80 crore, can now become operational in a year.

Operational Airport at Tawang very interesting.

Rohit, any idea where the other two are located?

Also Anini is what IA refers to as Fish Tails 1/2 complex?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Feb 2015 18:50

Sources said growing Chinese influence has been hindering execution of several developmental projects in the region over the last few months. At Tezu, for one, an airport engineer was allegedly put behind bars for three months on trumped up charges by local authorities and the previous contractor was roughed up, delaying construction work. Moreover, according to reports, construction equipment was not permitted to be carried to the project site.

WTF
Things are so bad??!

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 09 Feb 2015 18:55

Anini is indeed Fishtail I.

Wonder if they planned something on similar lines for Walong Sector....

Added Later:

Manmohan did not correct map error to protect Nehru name

More Disclosures.........The Chinese just love this pusillanimity.

A senior official active in Team Manmohan added that in April 2013, when Chinese troops set up six large tents deep within the Depsang bulge, "the Prime Minister refused permission to the Army to ensure that the intruders were challenged". Fortunately, Ambassador S. Jaishankar in Beijing was able to persuade the Chinese leadership to get the People's Liberation Army to withdraw from the bulge after 21 days, thereby defusing the situation.

Asked as to why official maps did not reflect the fact of the "fishtails" being Indian territory, the reply was that "as the mistake took place during Nehru's time, it was felt that correcting the maps formally would draw attention to this mistake on the part of the then Prime Minister and thereby tarnish his name".

A retired official claimed that "every government has protected Nehru's reputation by refusing to make public facts dating from the 1940s that they saw as damaging to the image of Nehru". He and a former colleague saw Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's 2013 refusal to formally change the map (a decision taken "after consultations with the political authority") as part of the effort to protect the reputation of Jawaharlal Nehru by refusing to make public any details of his failures, including the decision to keep secret the Henderson-Brooks Report on the 1962 war, or to draw attention to Nehru's failures even by the necessary step of rectifying them.

Wait it gets better!!

"It was Jawaharlal Nehru who gave away the UN Security Council seat to China when it was offered to India; who gave away Gwadar to Pakistan after the Sultan of Oman offered it to New Delhi for just $1 million; and who handed over the strategically vital Cocos islands to China," a former official pointed out, adding that "his legacy has long paralysed policymakers from taking decisions that would secure India's interests".

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 09 Feb 2015 21:11

Cartographic aggression reminds of another: page 220 of this book India's Relations with Her Neighbours link .

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 10 Feb 2015 00:31

What is a baffle range ?
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=21666

and do not tell that the F is close to the T on the keyboard.
Oh my god ... so baffled that they don't use spell check.

conan · Post by **conan** » 10 Feb 2015 00:53

Its a baffled range...baffles are for safety. Google it up. So yes its DDM - not baffle range - but baffled range

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 23 Feb 2015 12:37

Yudh Abhyas Gurkhas and Arctic Wolves on Discovery Channel Tonight at 9

http://www.discoverychannel.co.in/yudh- ... ic-wolves/

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 23 Feb 2015 20:10

Defence Expansion Plan Gets Mamata's Red Flag

The Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) proposals to expand the Army Cantonment at Kalimpong and set up an Armoured Corps division and a “composite aviation base” in North Bengal hang in the balance as the state government has been dragging its heel on the issue for the last two years.......

Defence officials pointed out that unlike West Bengal, neighbouring Assam had fully cooperated with the defence forces. IAF stations in Tezpur and Chhabua in Dibrugarh had been upgraded and bases for Sukhoi T-50 (T-50 ?) aircraft have been set up. The existing IAF stations in Jorhat and Mohanbari in Assam and Bagdogra and Hashimara in West Bengal are being modernised. At the Mountain Strike Corps headquarters (HQ) in Panagarh, an IAF station for C-130 J Super Hercules aircraft, which can fly troops and weapons very fast to the Sino-Indian border, has been built.

The Army, which has a strong presence in the Binaguri Cantonment, plans not only to increase the number of its personnel but also to have an Armoured Corps Division with MBT Arjun tanks and armoured vehicles. It currently has 63 Armoured Corps Regiments and has also raised the Ladakh Scouts and two Battalions of Arunachal.

According to the proposals, an Armoured Corps Division is planned at Jalpaiguri’s Dumdim, a “composite aviation base” of the IAF at Shougaon, and expansion of the Army base at Kalimpong in Darjeeling district. During the meeting with the senior state government officials, the defence officials said that for posting the new Mountain Division, the Armoured Corps base, equipped with latest weapons, including missiles, and 750 acres of land was needed at Dumdim. The Army had also identified the land needed for the railway link to Dumdim and the MoD had given the green signal to acquire the land in 2013.

For the IAF’s base at Shougaon, 361 acres are needed and 1,250 acres for expansion of the Army Cantonment at Kalimpong. According to sources at Fort William, the HQ of the Eastern Command, “Expansion of the Kalimpong base is an immediate need as it is one of the pillars guarding our borders with China in Sikkim as 15,000 troops are deployed in the base, spread over 415 acres. We need to expand it by at least three times and that is why an additional 1,250 acres of land is needed.”

Though the article is about how bad is didi's gov, it gives away lot of IA's and IAF's plan for NE.

-Ankit

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 23 Feb 2015 21:10

I lived in Sukna Cantonment for 3 years, that place was heaven. Kurseong was right behind our backyard, 4/5 hour track on foot.

But, (mountain) base of Kurseong is Mahananda wildlife sanctuary, where Sukna Cantonment is located. This place is already 100% under Army control. (Remember Sukna land scam). Same situation is in Binaguri, almost under army land and lots of tea gardens.

Also, Kalimpong is heavily populated area. Not sure how Army can expand there? Its a very hilly area densely covered in tea plantation gardens. Unless they plan to kick these plantations, which might be the reason they are getting hard time acquiring these lands.

Does armed forces plan to base their mountain strike corp in this region?

Apart from spreading some FUD, and divulging military deployment plans, i am not sure this article has achieved anything else.

Edit: - I misquoted Kurseong as Kalimpong at some places in text earlier. Fixed it.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 25 Feb 2015 16:21

For the gurus, is it conceivable to have a separate Marine Infantry Rgmt to form the nucleus of amphibious operations (analogous to Para Rgmt for airborne operations)? What would be the thought of current IA folks? My thinking is the nitty gritties of amphibious deployment needs to be regimentalized and not indoctrinated at brigade level since Bns are rotated through Bgdes.
Will swimming with X kgs of gear be an expected requirement for such a Regt (like para dropping with certain weight if gear)? Again how feasible is it to achieve Y Bns of all personnel with ability to swim?

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 26 Feb 2015 15:09

Rustom this and that...and here's the state of the small UAVs in the Army.

drone being sent for surveillance during a gunbattle with armed militants at Pindi Khattar village in Arnia border sector

Sigh.

P.S.: Someone please tell me what the deal is with the coloring on the "drone"? Some kind of reverse-psychology camouflage? Trying to make the enemy think this is merely a kid flying his R-V plane?

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 26 Feb 2015 15:17

My only question is why the red colour? Why cant it be grey or something which makes it difficult to spot. Or is it for the recovery team to spot it easily?

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 26 Feb 2015 16:43

^^ Regarding the above picture I have read elsewhere that while this picture was used by a publication to 'demonstrate' Army's use of drones during that specific operation the picture is actually from an Artillery training range. (No confirmation one way or the other). If that is true then that would explain the colour of the drone.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Mar 2015 16:32

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 9m9 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi

Here's BEL's Schillka upgrade.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 01 Mar 2015 23:23

Dilbu wrote:My only question is why the red colour? Why cant it be grey or something which makes it difficult to spot. Or is it for the recovery team to spot it easily?

Given its size, it will need the expertise of a marksman to effectively target it during flight. Very little chance of that happening in its actual deployment which is the the middle a raging fire fight between terrorists/naxals vs our security forces where the security forces will be numerically superior and throw enough suppressing fire to keep the bad guys down.
On the other hand, the challenge would be to recover the drone with its costly payload after its flight and bright red is going to help with that.
My 2 naya paisa. Jor se bolo ... pakis will win onlee

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 05 Mar 2015 10:32

fwiw..

vaibhav.n wrote: Wait it gets better!!
"It was Jawaharlal Nehru who gave away the UN Security Council seat to China when it was offered to India; who gave away Gwadar to Pakistan after the Sultan of Oman offered it to New Delhi for just $1 million; and who handed over the strategically vital Cocos islands to China," a former official pointed out, adding that "his legacy has long paralysed policymakers from taking decisions that would secure India's interests".

http://www.thehindu.com/2005/09/28/stor ... 270900.htm

dated September 28, 1955: UN seat: Nehru clarifies

Prime Minister Nehru has categorically denied any offer, formal or informal, having been received about a seat for India in the UN Security Council. He made this statement in reply to a short notice question in the Lok Sabha on September 27 by Dr. J.N. Parekh whether India had refused a seat informally offered to her in the Security Council. The Prime Minister said: "There has been no offer, formal or informal, of this kind. Some vague references have appeared in the press about it which have no foundation in fact. The composition of the Security Council is prescribed by the UN Charter, according to which certain specified nations have permanent seats. No change or addition can be made to this without an amendment of the Charter. There is, therefore, no question of a seat being offered and India declining it. Our declared policy is to support the admission of all nations qualified for UN membership.''

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 05 Mar 2015 21:39

Vivek_Ahuja wrote:P.S.: Someone please tell me what the deal is with the coloring on the "drone"? Some kind of reverse-psychology camouflage? Trying to make the enemy think this is merely a kid flying his R-V plane?

Dilbu wrote:My only question is why the red colour? Why cant it be grey or something which makes it difficult to spot. Or is it for the recovery team to spot it easily?

I've been flying aeromodels for the last 6 yrs or so. Here is my perspective:-

1. The 'drone' is indeed a commercial aeromodel purchased most likely off the shelf and fitted with a camera.
2. The red colour, though visible to the enemy, is also essential to ensure the aeromodel is visible to the person flying it 'coz it is, more likely than not, NOT autonomous but controlled by a pilot by visual means.
3. As Picklu mentioned, it would take a skilled marksman to bring it down. In a conventional operation such as during war, the enemy might even try it. But during anti terrorist operations, numbers of terrorists will not be as high and the moment he opens fire, he gives away his position and is dead soon thereafter

4. Rustom may still be some distance ahead in future, but this is more likely another fauji aeromodeller taking his hobby to the next level by putting a camera on board. The cost of this entire setup is likely to be under Rs 40k
5. A cursory glance at the aeromodel doesn't reveal any hardware for live video downlink (though I may be wrong here since payload under the wings is not visible). In all probability, a small camera is placed under one of the wings to take photos / record video which would then be downloaded onto a laptop.
6. The engine is a 2 stroke methanol engine and the size of the model indicates it would only have enough fuel for a 20min sortie at the maximum. 15 minutes flight would be more practical.

All in all, this looks like a jugaad to quickly make available drones at lower levels. But at the end of the day, it still gives the good guys a capability which they may not have had otherwise!
My 2 naya paisa

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 05 Mar 2015 22:04

Actually that model does have a two way link with continuous data transmission and people tracking ability.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 05 Mar 2015 22:20

prasannasimha wrote:Actually that model does have a two way link with continuous data transmission and people tracking ability.

Interesting!
You gather this from the photograph or some other source?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Mar 2015 06:49

kancha wrote:
Vivek_Ahuja wrote:P.S.: Someone please tell me what the deal is with the coloring on the "drone"? Some kind of reverse-psychology camouflage? Trying to make the enemy think this is merely a kid flying his R-V plane?

Dilbu wrote:My only question is why the red colour? Why cant it be grey or something which makes it difficult to spot. Or is it for the recovery team to spot it easily?
I've been flying aeromodels for the last 6 yrs or so. Here is my perspective:-

1. The 'drone' is indeed a commercial aeromodel purchased most likely off the shelf and fitted with a camera.
2. The red colour, though visible to the enemy, is also essential to ensure the aeromodel is visible to the person flying it 'coz it is, more likely than not, NOT autonomous but controlled by a pilot by visual means.
3. As Picklu mentioned, it would take a skilled marksman to bring it down. In a conventional operation such as during war, the enemy might even try it. But during anti terrorist operations, numbers of terrorists will not be as high and the moment he opens fire, he gives away his position and is dead soon thereafter
4. Rustom may still be some distance ahead in future, but this is more likely another fauji aeromodeller taking his hobby to the next level by putting a camera on board. The cost of this entire setup is likely to be under Rs 40k
5. A cursory glance at the aeromodel doesn't reveal any hardware for live video downlink (though I may be wrong here since payload under the wings is not visible). In all probability, a small camera is placed under one of the wings to take photos / record video which would then be downloaded onto a laptop.
6. The engine is a 2 stroke methanol engine and the size of the model indicates it would only have enough fuel for a 20min sortie at the maximum. 15 minutes flight would be more practical.

All in all, this looks like a jugaad to quickly make available drones at lower levels. But at the end of the day, it still gives the good guys a capability which they may not have had otherwise!
My 2 naya paisa

I agree with you. This is very similar to my first model. Though, it is most probably not from a fauji. Army buys them from local modelling clubs/vendors. The IC engine is for longer sortie time, as you rightly said. The launch in this picture is obviously not ideal.

I would be surprised if that has a camera and a video link. Looks like a standard 4-channel for target practice.

wig · Post by **wig** » 06 Mar 2015 09:34

Army warfare training in J&K takes a hit; Tosa Maidan lease not renewed; troops being sent to R’sthan, MP for training

The Army’s training in warfare, especially in artillery fire — a winning factor in conventional wars — has been severely affected in the insurgency-hit J&K, which shares its borders with China and Pakistan.
After the previous NC-Congress coalition government refused to renew lease deeds of Kalith and Tosa Maidan firing ranges in June and October last year, respectively, the Army’s training in warfare has been adversely hit, said top defence sources.
As a last resort, the Army since early January this year has started sending its troops along with artillery guns and other weapons and ammunition from J&K to firing ranges in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh, they added.
It may be stated here that the Army has deployed several artillery units in counter-insurgency operations across J&K.
“In a last resort, we are now sending artillery regiments with artillery guns and ammunition to Mahajan and Pokhran field firing ranges in Rajasthan and Bobina field firing range in Madhya Pradesh for perfecting artillery fire, tank fire and other high calibre weapons,” said a defence source. One artillery regiment has three batteries and one battery comprises 132 men and has six artillery guns.
Pulling out one artillery regiment (396 men) from counter-insurgency operations in the state for undergoing training in Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh along with their weapons and ammunition takes a mammoth effort.
It takes over a month for the regiment to complete training and come back. However, it creates a vacuum in the security grid from where the regiment is pulled out, the sources said.
The process of booking trains, ferrying artillery regiment with men, guns and ammunition is not only tedious but also weakens our security grid in the militancy-hit J&K where Pakistan and China keep engineering activities inimical to India, they added.
Keeping in mind the security scenario, the Army has been sending its troops for training in a phased manner.
On August 14 last year, the then Brigade Commander of 52 Brigade, Brigadier RS Bathuria, had regretted the delay in renewing the lease. To date, the lease has not been renewed. All units under 16 Corps (White Knight Corps) used to undergo training at Kalith while units under 15 Corps (Chinar Corps) used to undergo training at Tosa Maidan. Tosa Maidan in Budgam and Kalith range in Akhnoor were used by the Army since 1965.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/commun ... 50325.html

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Mar 2015 17:45

Terrorists within. Trying to destroy the nation from within.

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 06 Mar 2015 23:43

indranilroy wrote:
I agree with you. This is very similar to my first model. Though, it is most probably not from a fauji. Army buys them from local modelling clubs/vendors. The IC engine is for longer sortie time, as you rightly said. The launch in this picture is obviously not ideal.

I would be surprised if that has a camera and a video link. Looks like a standard 4-channel for target practice.

It is a hobby-grade RC plane and is being marketed as a micro UAV with payload options (though I dont see any on it).
http://www.omuavsystems.com/eagle-eye.html

If you follow the listed autopilot specs carefully, it is based on the open source Pixhawk/Pixhawk clone flight controller and compatible data links. You can also spot the cheapo ublox GPS receiver on the fuselage behind the wing.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 13 Mar 2015 04:11

First joint parachute drop by US Army, Indian Army Parachute Regiment & NSG

On February, right in the middle of Aero India 2015, the U.S. Army teamed up with the Indian Army’s 2nd Parachute Regiment (Special Forces) for a parachute demonstration from a C-17 Globemaster III. The two armies have jumped together befoer during Yudh Abhyas exercises, but for the first time, National Security Guard paratroopers were part of the jump. The Indian commandos teamed up with paratroopers from the U.S. Army Bravo Company, 1st Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group for detailed joint briefings and the jump from a Pacific Air Forces C-17 Globemaster III over Yelahanka on a warm day.

The jump, while primarily for demonstration purposes at the show, was also a gesture of jointmanship between the special forces just weeks after U.S. President Barack Obama and Indian PM Narendra Modi renewed the strategic partnership and defence relationship between the two countries, an agreement that includes expanding the nature of joint military exercises and exchanges. The Indian Army and IAF are expected to participate in exercises in the U.S. this year.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 14 Mar 2015 23:05

Couldn't find a thread discussing service personnel issues, so posting here since the Army has the largest number of personnel and who might be impacted from my layman's understanding of this article.

Supreme Court rules out high court appeal for soldiers - Ajai Shukla blog/Business Std.

On Wednesday, the Supreme Court rendered a decision that practically makes the Armed Forces Tribunal (AFT) the first and the last forum for serving and retired soldiers, sailors and airmen and their families, sharply eroding their legal rights compared with other Indian citizens.

The apex court has ruled that AFT verdicts cannot be challenged before High Courts, as was being done till now. The only recourse available after the AFT will now be the Supreme Court.

However, in 2012, the Supreme Court has ruled that military litigants have no vested right of appeal against an AFT judgment. As per the Armed Forces Tribunal Act, 2007, the apex court can only be approached if a “point of law of general public importance” is involved or if the issue is important enough to warrant the attention of the apex Court.

“Most issues before the AFT are not of public importance. They relate to veterans’ pensions, medical disabilities, etc. Since these cannot now be taken before the Supreme Court as a matter of right, the AFT has become the only court for military litigants, effectively denying poor soldiers the right of judicial review,” says Navdeep Singh, a Chandigarh-based lawyer, widely respected for his legal services to military veterans.

In contrast, a 7-judge Supreme Court bench had deemed "unconstitutional" a similar ruling that prevented High Court review of rulings of the Central Administrative Tribunal (CAT) and State Administrative Tribunals (SATs). {As usual, babus get better rights and perks?}

The AFT was established in 2009 under the Armed Forces Tribunal Act, 2007, as a judicial tribunal that soldiers petition for justice before approaching civil courts.

Legal experts have questioned the AFT’s independence, since it functions directly under the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The MoD appoints the judges to the AFT. The Defence Secretary (who is on the panel that selects AFT judges) is also the First Respondent in most cases filed by soldiers, sailors and airmen.

In November 2012, the Punjab & Haryana High Court ordered that the AFT be placed under the Ministry of Law & Justice. An MoD appeal against this verdict is pending in the Supreme Court.

Right to Information applications have revealed MoD patronage of AFT judges. As Business Standard has reported (April 2, 2013, “RTI reveals MoD largesse to Armed Forces Tribunal”) the MoD admitted spending over Rs 67 lakhs for “official foreign visits” by the then AFT chairperson and members, and having provided them with unauthorized canteen cards to shop at subsidized military retail outlets. AFT Administrative Members (military generals on the tribunals) are called to army formations to “sensitise” them about cases that the were hearing.

Recently a Supreme Court Constitution Bench struck down the national tax tribunal on the grounds that it was not independent of the government. Arvind Datar, who was counsel in that case, asserts that Article 226 of the Constitution, which provides judicial review before the High Court, cannot be struck down.

“Look at the poor soldier and how he would be affected by such a judgment. A jawan living in Tamil Nadu, or Assam, would have to engage a Supreme Court lawyer in Delhi, and bear all the expenses of travel in order to appeal against an AFT ruling. This is completely unfair”, says Datar.

Meanwhile, the MoD's battery of lawyers in New Delhi continue filing automatic appeals in the Supreme Court against unfavourable AFT orders. So serious is the problem that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar recently pledged to end this practice. {Parrikar has promised much so far, time to get cracking. For starters, please stop filing these appeals, it's just sheer bloody mindedness by the bureaucracy to show they are above the military.}

Legal experts point out that, if High Courts can no longer hear challenges and provide redress, the Supreme Court would directly receive a flood of appeals, diverting it from its primary task --- to adjudicate on matters of importance and Constitutional issues.

“Ultimately, defence personnel have become even lesser citizens than what they already were. Justice will now be neither affordable, nor accessible. We will request the honourable Supreme Court in other similar pending matters to refer this issue to a larger bench”, says Navdeep Singh.

We need to a better job in taking care of our servicemen and women. The informed public these days is slowly becoming aware of how patient our military is, in spite of such issues, and they make do with what they have. I was pleasantly surprised when two of my friends independently said this. Hope this govt. sets an example in dealing with India's soldiers and wipe out the bitter memories of AKA's 10 years of misrule.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 15 Mar 2015 23:21

Can any Military History gurus ID the Cavalry Regiments?? I see only Deccan and Central India Horse

Did Skinner's Horse sit out of WW1?? Love the trooper in green in the middle......

Snaps from WW1 Cetenary Celebrations

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 17 Mar 2015 05:18

How India’s Cold Start is making the world a safer place

In the Russian view, there is another serious threat that should be discussed: Pakistan. Pakistan is a nation with nuclear weapons, various delivery systems and a domestic situation that is highly unstable. Russia assesses that Islamists are not only seeking power in Pakistan but are also trying to get their hands on nuclear materials. – Wikileaks, November 2010.

The Russian assessment of the Pakistani nuclear threat has to be seen in the backdrop of Islamabad’s insecurity-fuelled weapons programme. The country has not only cranked up its production of nuclear warheads, it is doing so primarily in the area of battlefield nuclear weapons designed for use against the Indian Army’s armour and troop concentrations. While Pakistan’s strategic arsenal is said to be under constant scrutiny by US intelligence agencies, the tactical warheads will be located in forward bases, presenting a tempting target for terrorist groups.

The exact number of nuclear warheads in any country’s armoury is a closely guarded secret, but guesstimates are that by the end of the decade Pakistan will overtake France’s tally of around 300 nuclear warheads.

Strange as it may seem, many in the West blame India for Pakistan’s nuclear underground. They are of the view that it is India’s new Cold War military doctrine that is accelerating the production of nuclear weapons next door. The fact that it's the Americans – along with China – who had actively helped Pakistan develop nuclear weapons is conveniently forgotten.

To be sure, Pakistan has embarked upon a wasteful militarisation programme that could wreck its economy because of the fear of India. According to Wikileaks, more than the al-Qaida, more than American plans to seize its nuclear stockpile, or even a hostile Afghan government, what’s causing jitters among Pakistani generals is Cold Start – a new version of blitzkrieg being perfected by the Indian Army.

So deeply does it dread Cold Start that the Pakistani military has increased its output to an all-time high of over 20 nuclear bombs annually. To understand why Pakistan is now upping the ante with battlefield nuclear weapons, we need to understand the dynamics unleashed by Cold Start.

India Army: Need for speed

India and Pakistan have fought wars in 1948, 1965, 1971 and 1999. Each of these conflicts was launched by the Pakistani military with the knowledge that if its military thrusts failed, its patrons – the US and China – could be relied upon to work the diplomatic back channels, get the world media to raise the alarm, and issue veiled threats, thereby bringing pressure upon India’s political leadership to call off its attack.

India’s military strategy was different. After the defending corps along the border soften Pakistan’s frontal positions, the mechanised columns of India’s elite strike corps roll across the border, destroy the core of the Pakistan Army and slice the country in two, giving the political leadership a huge bargaining advantage.

Sounds like a bullet-proof strategy. But because India’s strike corps were based in central India, a significant distance from the international border, it took up to three weeks for these three armies – comprising hundreds of thousands of troops – to reach the front.

Because of the long mobilisation period, the intervention by Western nations and the truce-happy nature of its political leadership, India’s military brass could not use its strike forces to their full potential.

Quick strikes

Cold Start was designed to run around this logistical Maginot Line. The doctrine reorganises the Indian Army’s offensive power away from the three large strike corps into eight smaller division-sized battle groups that combine mechanised infantry, artillery, and armour in a manner reminiscent of the Soviet Union’s operational maneuver groups. According to Dr Subhash Kapila, an international relations and strategic affairs analyst at the New Delhi-based South Asia Analysis Group, Cold Start aims to seize the initiative and finish the war before India’s political leadership loses its nerve.

“The long mobilisation time gives the political leadership time to waver under pressure, and in the process deny the Indian Army its due military victories,” says Kapila. “The new war doctrine would compel the political leadership to give political approval ‘ab-initio’ and thereby free the armed forces to generate their full combat potential from the outset.”

The crux of Cold Start is:

Pakistan must not enjoy the luxury of time. Cold Start aims for eight “Battle Groups”, comprising independent armoured and mechanised brigades that would launch counterattacks within hours.
These Battle Groups will be fully integrated with the Indian Air Force and naval aviation, and launch multiple strikes round the clock into Pakistan.
Each Battle Group will be the size of a division (30,000-50,000 troops) and highly mobile unlike the strike corps.
Ominously for Pakistan, the Battle Groups will be well forward from existing garrisons. India’s elite strike forces will no longer sit idle waiting for the opportune moment, which never came in the last wars.

Calculus of war

In a Harvard paper on Cold Start, Walter C. Ladwig writes, “As the Indian military enhances its ability to implement Cold Start, it is simultaneously degrading the chance that diplomacy could diffuse a crisis on the subcontinent. In a future emergency, the international community may find the Battle Groups on the road to Lahore before anyone in Washington, Brussels or Beijing has the chance to act.”

Cold Start is also aimed at paralysing Pakistani response. Although its operational details remain classified, it appears that the goal would be to have three to five Battle Groups entering Pakistani territory within 72 to 96 hours from the time the order to mobilise is issued.

“Only such simultaneity of operations will unhinge the enemy, break his cohesion, and paralyse him into making mistakes from which he will not be able to recover,” writes Gurmeet Kanwal, director, Centre for Land Warfare Studies, New Delhi.

Agrees Ladwig: “Multiple divisions operating independently have the potential to disrupt or incapacitate the Pakistani leadership's decision making cycle, as happened to the French high command in the face of the German blitzkrieg of 1940.”

Also, rather than seek to deliver a catastrophic blow to Pakistan (i.e., cutting the country in two), the goal of Indian military operations would be to make shallow territorial gains, 50-80 km deep, that could be used in post-conflict negotiations to extract concessions from Islamabad.

Where the strike corps had the power to deliver a knockout blow, the Battle Groups can only “bite and hold” territory. This denies Pakistan the “regime survival” justification for employing nuclear weapons in response to India's conventional attack.

Tactical nukes: Pakistan’s back-up

Pakistan has declared it will launch nuclear strikes against India when a significant portion of its territory has been captured or is likely to be captured, or the Pakistani military suffers heavy losses.

At the same time the Pakistani military is taking out another insurance policy – through battlefield nuclear weapons. The message is that Islamabad is prepared to use these compact warheads, which can be launched on purpose-built short range rockets, such as the much hyped Nasr, in the early days of war.

This can be interpreted in two ways. One, Pakistan has come round to the thinking that it can never defeat the Indian Army. Two, the Pakistani generals believe Cold Start cannot be allowed to stymie their plan to bleed India “with a thousand cuts”. In their view, achieving nuclear deterrence is not a victory but to stop their proxy war against India would be a defeat. This is not something to be taken lightly as it shows that the Pakistani elites want perpetual conflict with India in order to control Pakistani resources for their own benefit.

Calling the bluff

What if Pakistan uses tactical nuclear bombs against the Indian Army’s Battle Groups the moment Cold Start is initiated? In Kapila’s view, Pakistan’s low nuclear threshold is a myth – perpetuated and planted by Western academia and think tanks. This suits the needs of the conservative American establishment in whose eyes India is a long-term rival and Pakistan a useful, if unreliable, ally. Unfortunately, India’s political leadership and its uncritical media have been brainwashed into believing that Cold Start has apocalyptic consequences.

“Nuclear warfare is not a commando raid or commando operation with which Pakistan is more familiar," says Kapila. “Crossing the nuclear threshold is so fateful a decision that even strong American Presidents in the past have baulked at exercising it or the prospects of exercising it.” Pakistan cannot expect India would sit idle and suffer a Pakistani nuclear strike without a massive nuclear retaliation.

Broken arrows: Threat for the West, not India

The spectre of battlefield nuclear weapons under the direct control of commanders who sympathise with Islamic terrorists no doubt scares a lot of people. According to Wikileaks, in the Russian view, “extremist organisations have more opportunities to recruit people working in (Pakistan’s) nuclear and missile programmes”.

Although Pakistan’s strategic nukes are stored in well guarded depots, the miniaturised tactical nukes are harder to supervise 24/7. To ensure battlefield nuclear weapons are used at the opportune time, field commanders need independent charge and prior clearance. This is why German Army commanders have independent control of American nuclear warheads kept at NATO bases in Germany.

There is no need for New Delhi to feel alarmed. If, say, the al-Qaeda or the Islamic State manages to get hold of a battlefield nuke, the biggest threat is not to India but to Pakistan and the West. It is the West that made a Faustian bargain with Pakistan in order to target Russia. And like all Faustian bargains there comes a time to pay up. A broken arrow (code for a lost nuclear bomb) from Pakistan’s arsenal is more likely to explode in New York or London than New Delhi.

However, if these terrorists brandish nukes against India, it is Pakistan that will have to deal with the consequences. American strategic analyst, Ralph Peters, the author of Looking for Trouble, says: “Let India deal with Pakistan. Pakistan would have to behave responsibly at last. Or face nuclear-armed India. And Pakistan's leaders know full well that a nuclear exchange would leave their country a wasteland. India would dust itself off and move on.”

Islamabad is thus faced with the cold reality that India is prepared to undertake offensive operations without giving it time to bring diplomatic leverages into play. Since India has declared it will not resort to a nuclear first strike, the onus is on Pakistan and its patrons – the US and China. A South Asian nuclear exchange has the potential to spiral out of control, sucking in China, the US, the Islamic world and Russia. That would drive the global economy right over the cliff. Therefore, argues Kapila, “A nuclear conflict will take place in South Asia only if the United States wants it and lets Pakistan permissively cross the nuclear threshold.”

Without firing a shot

The beauty of Cold Start is it may never have to be used. It screws with the Pakistani military’s mind and forces the generals to spend time and scarce resources on finding ways to stop an Indian blitzkrieg.

Cold Start also works to undermine the much smaller Pakistani economy. According to the Pakistani media, the threat of the Indian Cold Start doctrine and increase in India’s defence budget has prompted the Pakistan government to sharply increase its defence budget, further increasing the strain on that country’s fragile economy.

However, if at all Pakistan uses tactical nuclear warheads on Indian armoured columns thundering towards its cities, it would end up devastating its own Punjabi heartland. Most Pakistani cities are close to the border and would become uninhabitable while India would lose only a small part of its army.

Cold Start was devised by India’s brightest military minds to end the standoff in the subcontinent. In their view, no country can be allowed to export terror and brandish nuclear weapons at India, without a fitting response.

As Chanakya wrote in the Arthashastra, the Indian treatise on statecraft, 2300 years ago: “The antidote of poison is poison, not nectar.”

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 17 Mar 2015 11:54

And the best part of Cold Start is Pakistan knows India has very detailed plan for it. It has done its job way before it can ever be used in field. Who ever (??) proposed it was a genius

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Mar 2015 22:10

VinodTK wrote:

However, if these terrorists brandish nukes against India, it is Pakistan that will have to deal with the consequences. American strategic analyst, Ralph Peters, the author of Looking for Trouble, says: “Let India deal with Pakistan. Pakistan would have to behave responsibly at last. Or face nuclear-armed India. And Pakistan's leaders know full well that a nuclear exchange would leave their country a wasteland. India would dust itself off and move on.”

Pakistan was let to be behave most irresponsibly for the last 50 years deliberately to keep India down.
THey expect the same behavior from india in the future

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 22 Mar 2015 08:51

Well I have heard of 92 Hr Brigade that one mechanised Infantry Brigade was converting into. It seems Cold Start isimplemented on that line.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Mar 2015 13:41

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... 14_WEB.pdf
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... 14_WEB.pdf

DRDO Tech focus 05 and 06 of 2014 cover the NBC suit, BP jacket, helmet and anti mine boots for the infantry.
The jacket with HAPs(Hard armour panels) stops 7.62 nato ball ammo at 15 meters. The weight of the jacket with two HAPs is around 5.5 Kgs which is fairly light weight. The kevlar helmet offers only level IIIa protection like kevlar helmets used world over, which is lower than level III protection offered by the Patakas used by our men currently. The boots are about 3Kgs a pair, which is unlikely to go down well with the men.

nits · Post by **nits** » 02 Apr 2015 16:23

Gurus - Wanted to know on Snipers...

Does every unit of Army has its own snipers or there is a Elite Sniper unit in Army which gets attached to commanding unit during operations \ war time

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 09 Apr 2015 05:09

Troops on Arunachal border to be doubled

NEW DELHI: In another assertive step towards a routinely transgressing China on the border, the government has decided to double the number of troops guarding the Sino-Indian border in Arunachal Pradesh. In two more years, the strength of Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) on Sino-Indian border in Arunachal Pradesh will be increased by close to 10,000 troops.

Home ministry is likely to sanction one more frontier (comprising of eight battalions with around 10,000 personnel) of ITBP to guard the border in Arunachal against transgressions by Chinese troops. At present there is only one frontier guarding the border in the state.

In addition to this, the home ministry has also agreed in principle to sanction 10,000 more troops to the force to allow them rest and recuperation, effectively increasing the strength of the force by around 20,000. This decision has been taken as ITBP is a 100% deployment force with no soft postings. It has led to higher stress levels among jawans and eventual attrition.

Home ministry sources said last week ITBP DG Krishna Chaudhary had met Home Minister Rajnath Singh to push for the twin sanctions. "The home minister was very receptive to the demands of the force and said he was expediting the sanction for 10,000 more personnel to guard Arunachal border. The sanction will be granted soon. On the issue of 10,000 more troops for rest and recuperation, the home minister has agreed in principle, but it may take some time," said an official privy to the discussions.

The eight new battalions sanctioned for Arunachal Pradesh will guard 54 new border outposts to be constructed on the border, said sources. "It will take two years to raise and train the eight battalions. Meanwhile, the force will begin putting up the infrastructure to sustain them," said the official.

At present, there are about 40 BoPs on the 1,126 km Arunachal border making patrolling and surveillance in the region extremely difficult. While on Indo-Pak border, there are BoPs every three-four km, on the Arunachal border the distance can stretch up to 50-100 km between two BoPs in certain sectors

The force, meanwhile, is happy that Singh has shown willingness for 10,000 troops for rest and recuperation. "We already work in inhospitable condition at heights of over 15,000 feet. Battalions earlier kept for rest and recuperation have now been deployed in Naxal areas. This leads to an ITBP jawan never having a soft posting," said an ITBP officer.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 10 Apr 2015 16:42

Dunno if shared............

Ladakh:The picturesque Zanskar Valley in Jammu and Kashmir State in Northern India is under threat as one of the tributaries of the Zanskar River has been blocked by a massive 200 ft high landslide dam (equal to height of a 20 storey building). The landslide dam between Shaday Sumdo and MarShun in the Zanskar subdivision of Kargil district has created about 8 km long lake, whose size is increasing with every passing day. The landslide dam is made of mostly fine grained debris & blocks 97% of the flow of around 50 cusecs flow at this period as per records. While the lake is frozen right now, the threat of its breach looms as soon as the melting season starts. The landslide dam was reportedly created on Dec 31, 2014, when a whole side of mountain soil had landed on the Phuktal River which in turn is a major tributary of Zanskar River, which in turn is a tributary of Indus River) is near Marshun village, about 90 km from Padum, the sub-divisional headquarters of Zanskar, 43 km of that distance has to be trekked on foot. Sudden reduction of flow in the river at the downstream Nimo Bozgo Hydropower project of NHPC raised the suspicion of the landslide and this was ascertained only after a flight over the river path.

Imagery: