Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

[vasu raya]

Prototyping of a MALD like sensor that itself weighs a few kg's on a platform that weighs what exactly? Whats the point of all this. What next, use the Trainer to test Air to Air Missile seekers?

Typically research programs are authorized by govt. vs. Lockheed or Northrup spending their own funds at this stage of prototyping, which is why when Mr. Bhadoria talked about his plans wrt HTT-40 and HAL spending money out of pocket, the talk was to take more initiatives one being MALD prototyping, sooner or later IAF would want that at block 4 level maybe

what simpler options in the HAL context? pod sounds good but which aircraft to use?

[brar_w]

Typically research programs are authorized by govt. vs. Lockheed or Northrup spending their own funds at this stage of prototyping, which is why when Mr. Bhadoria talked about his plans wrt HTT-40 and HAL spending money out of pocket, the talk was to take more initiatives one being MALD prototyping, sooner or later IAF would want that at block 4 level maybe

Even lockheed and northrop do most of their R&D from government funding. IRAD is a very small component for them and it usually is in areas covering a broader capability rather than specific systems.

HTT-40 can be a very capable trainer, there is no doubt in my mind if HAL gets the support. However I have plenty of reservations when you begin to do stuff with it that it is not suitable for and a MALD like system is one of them. If you want a cheap, expendable decoy, develop one. Testing and systems development can be done on a pod based system as is common practice in the rest of the world.

what simpler options in the HAL context?

For a MALD like system? Develop a decoy. Put it on a Nirbhay if need be. Definitely cheaper then putting this on a multi-million dollar trainer that is ill-suited for it.

[vasu raya]

whats a SAS you were referring to? Nirbhay's top speed is 0.8 mach and isn't coming back, maybe after MALD development is done. I think the confusion is between prototyping vs. field deployment

[Karan M]

Cough, cough

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Abhyas

[brar_w]

whats a SAS you were referring to? Nirbhay's top speed is 0.8 mach and isn't coming back, maybe after MALD development is done. I think the confusion is between prototyping vs. field deployment

SAS - Signature Augmentation Subsystem , developed by Northrop Grumman for its A. Raytheon has its own electronics package that performs a similar role for its versions. The MALD also doesn't come back.

Why would you need a a trainer to do the prototyping for any component for such a weapon?

[vasu raya]

ok, the closest cousin is the Abhyas, and they are launching it with booster rockets, the trainer speed doesn't match it yet it needs to be flight tested on aircraft to make it into a MALD

[brar_w]

Cough, cough

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_Abhyas

Thats the proper way to do it.

k, the closest cousin is the Abhyas, and they are launching it with rockets, the trainer speed doesn't match it yet it needs to be flight tested on aircraft to make it into a MALD

No it does not. This particular system is similar to the HARPY in some ways. If you wanted an air launched, you would have to have a vehicle that could be carried on a suitable platform. It would be the same ground launched system, but packaged into something that is carried by aerial platforms. There is absolutely no use, for a trainer in all of this. Not even if you push and shove it.

[vasu raya]

we started with absolutely no MALD to having one Abhyas (a target drone) which is derived from Lakshya whose top speed is 0.7 mach, once we move beyond 0.5 mach there is no place for the trainer to be used for flight testing, sure package the electronics in a different composite airframe suitable for air launch and I guess thats a given. Before that they would have to build a full-fledged one. whats the launch speed for MALD?

[brar_w]

Whats the infatuation in using a trainer for this project? Is it something that would not work for you unless the HTT-40 is used?

[vasu raya]

Again the search was for MALD with the trainer only to help in flight testing before you bring in the front line fighters to further develop and test it

[brar_w]

So the only purpose for the trainer is for something that really doesn't require a trainer in the first place.

[vasu raya]

Asking for a loaner aircraft for some research purpose is to define its role? was asking for a trainer not a fighter and you say trainer is not needed, so you can give me a fighter on loan instead

[brar_w]

Asking for a loaner aircraft for some research purpose is to define its role?

You do not need a trainer for such a role. All you need to do is test out systems on a pod on your conventional aircraft. Even a commercial aircraft would do just fine. In fact those may just be better suited then a low subsonic trainer.

[vasu raya]

Not sure if they can flight test it from say a Dornier that HAL manufactures

[brar_w]

I think you need to do your homework on how systems and sub-systems are tested on your own.

[vasu raya]

Thanks brar_w

[Singha]

even if the AMCA were delivered on schedule, the IAF will still find 84 flaws in it and drag it out a decade while purchasing more PAKFA until the point were all needs are met and no money remains for AMCA. Arjun 2.0 story.

it is better ADA take a relook , scrap the AMCA and focus on a stealth bomber design. it will be like Agni series a product not exported by anyone and hence a safe and secure market play. once they demo unleashing 6 LR weapons from the weapons bay, IN will be all over it, and IAF will have to swallow its import complex and line up also.

something about this size would have the desired load of 6 internal, 4 external weapons, addl pylons to launch penetration aids like MALD decoys and chaff and enough of fuel in wet wings near the roots and fuselage tanks, plus a lot of ECM gear near the tail, 360 EODASS using distributed sensors etc.
2 man crew should be enough.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/09/ ... 34x329.jpg

the internal and external pylons could also carry normal 1000lb bombs for CCIP bombing using SAR imagery and EO also in bad weather and secure skies.

the MTA is a sheer waste of time when the Embraer product is already into flight tests and meets our needs.

if they can make it VLO even high subsonic is good. if they cannot make it VLO, it will need to be supersonic so perhaps a russian engine will be needed like those use on the blackjack.

[NRao]

GD,

I think India has established a critical mass in AC design, perhaps not there yet in manufacturing. But it would be a travesty if the IAF were to behave in that manner in 2025.

On a bomber, there would be a learning curve ................. means JV. Again.

Besides, India, from pure economics, has a very small window to get her house in order (China is in the same boat, but seems to be making the right noise). So, I do not see the billions for such planes. The number of FGFA would be dictated by the price paid for the Rafale.

I feel the AMCA will be a good-great deal. It will get the right support - for too many reasons it needs to succeed.

[Singha]

there is no scope for a JV in bombers. US will not share its UCAV projects, has no manned bomber project and neither is Rus looking for any JV on the pakda( and we all know what JV is, just a sham).

>> But it would be a travesty if the IAF were to behave in that manner in 2025.

I am afraid the same IAF young guns who are dismissive of domestic efforts today will be air comodores and vice air marshals in 2025. so attitudes are likely to become worse not better. atleast our elders went from no phone to black bakelite BSNL phone and did not crib much. todays kids think a octa core 3 Ghz , 3 GB ram phone is ok for 2015 only. in 2016 they want the latest again.

mart my words . ten years from now (if I am alive till then) we shall see. the same too little, too late argument will be tagged to the AMCA. US has inducted two types, japan proto is on verge of flight, cheen is testing two types , Soko is striding forward....today

[Philip]

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2015/03/04 ... html[quote]
Russian company to help modernise IAF fleet
March 4, 2015 RIR

KRET, a Russian giant in the field of cutting-edge avionics and the developer of the Identification Friend or Foe system is upbeat forging joint projects with Indian companies for the modernisation of IAF fleet. Russian company to help modernise IAF fleet

The company Data Patterns and KRET discussed the possibility of joint development of AFAR-equipped radar for the Indian aircraft LCA MK2 (Tejas). Source: AP
During Aero India 2015, a delegation of Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies (KRET), a part of Rostec State Corporation, held a series of negotiations with the representatives of Indian companies on the modernisation of the country's air force fleet. At the end of the meetings, many agreements on developing cooperation with potential customers were struck.

India is one of priority markets for KRET. The military-technical cooperation between the two countries goes back half a century, and the Indian Air Force is widely using Russian equipment, Nikolay Kolesov, General Director of KRET, said. KRET is ready for broad cooperation with local companies, including the development of joint projects within the ‘Made in India’ policy framework, announced by the country’s leadership.

No borders in India-Russia defence ties

KRET products have generated great interest among Indian professionals from leading companies, including Bharat Electronics Limited, DARE (Defence Avionics Research Establishment), HAL, Indian Avitronics and DEFSYS. A number of them have signed joint cooperation protocols.

Questions of import substitution and after-sale service of Russian MiG-29K and MiG-29UPG, Su-30MKI and Ka-31 helicopters were the key issues during talks between KRET and the representatives of Samtel and Data Patterns. In particular, the company Data Patterns and KRET discussed the possibility of joint development of AFAR-equipped radar for the Indian aircraft LCA MK2 (Tejas), as well as the integration of IFF systems developed by Data Patterns. KRET specialises in latest innovations in the system of Identification of friend or foe.

During their meetings, KRET and the representatives of Indian Avitronics and DEFSYS touched upon the questions of modernisation of avionics on Soviet and Russian-made aircrafts. The negotiations resulted in the decision of the Indian side to send KRET the inquiry regarding the possibility of upgrading the helicopters Mi-8, Mi-17 and Ka-31 and aircrafts Su-30MKI and MiG-21. In particular, the KRET offered the Indian side the new onboard indicators for the Mi-8 and Mi-17, inertial navigation system INS-2000 for Ka-31 and the MK-Compass routing system for MiG-21.

KRET products are well known in India due to India-Russia military-technical cooperation. KRET is developing the onboard systems for the FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) for the Indian Air Force. During Aero India-2015. The Concern was able to attract attention to its civil products as well. For instance, the forum’s hosts showed much interest in the onboard data acquisition systems for civil aircraft of MZBN type (the black box). The technical characteristics of KRET's flight recorders are comparable with foreign counterparts by L3 Communications (USA), TELEDYNE CONTROLS (USA), Curtiss-Wright (USA).

The aero show also saw KRET presenting several unique developments such as President-S complex, created for the aircrafts and helicopters defence from missiles with infrared homing, and the on-board radar Zhuk-AE with active phased array antenna designed for the new generation fighter jets. KRET drew the attention of the host country to the large number of radars like Kopye-21I (Spear-21I) and Zhuk-ME, which are currently in service at the National Air Force, and invited it to modernize the outdated radars in India. This prospect kindled interest in one of the local companies. The two parties considered it rational to sign a memorandum of cooperation in the framework of the proposed projects.

The exhibition was attended by 12 KRET companies, including Avionika concern, Fazotron-NIIR corporation, Aerokosmicheskoe Oborudovanie corporation, KRRTI, Gradient RI, Electroavtomatika OKB, Aviaavtomatika im V.V. Tarasova, JSC Ramensky Instrument Engineering Plant, JSC Ramenskoe Design Bureau, NIIAO Institute of Aircraft Equipment, Ekran RI, Aeropribor-Voshod.
[/quote]

[brar_w]

Could Su-35S Deal Edge Out Rafale in India?

ABU DHABI — Moscow and New Delhi have agreed to perform design work in India on what Russia claims would be a "fifth generation" version of the Su-35, an agreement that may lead to an Indian variant of the fighter jet, the Russian Military Complex chief said.

The announcement makes India the first country to sign a contract, however preliminary, for the S version of the Su-35.

"We have been negotiating and have signed the intention protocol for the Su-35," Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov said during the IDEX show in Abu Dhabi last month. "Now we are working on designing ideas for this contract and on creating a manufacturing platform for the aircraft of the fifth generation."

Rostec is Russia's state-run corporation that oversees export of high-tech products.

Chemezov said the jet would be developed to meet the Indian Air Force's requirements. He did not say how many of the jets India might plan to buy.

Russia claims the Su-35S would be a fifth generation fighter, as opposed to the legacy fourth generation Su-35. That implies stealth, but it's unclear whether the jet would be on par with an F-35 joint strike fighter.

In India, however, no source in the Defence Ministry could confirm that any deal had been signed with Russia on the Su-35S. An Air Force official did say that the Russians have made one or two Su-35S presentations in the past six months on how it can help replace India's MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter aircraft, which are due for retirement in seven or eight years.

Russian industry sources said the fighter will be priced at $85 million. That could make it competitive with Dassault Aviation's Rafale, and could have implications for India's proposed purchase of 126 Rafales. New Delhi selected the Rafale as the preferred bidder in a protracted competition in 2012, but has yet to make a final decision on the purchase.

Indian and French defense ministers discussed the Rafale deal during Jean-Yves Le Drian's recent visit to India, an Indian MoD source said. But Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar did not provide a time commitment to Le Drian on when the deal will be signed.

Parrikar told Le Drian that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has been asked to complete cost estimates for the Rafales it will build under license.

The French defense minister's spokesman was not available for comment.

A Dassault Aviation spokesman, asked about the Indian agreement for design work on the Su-35S, said the Indian Air Force chief has said a Sukhoi cannot replace a Rafale.

In India, the Economic Times, reported on Feb. 19 that Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha ruled out a purchase of additional Su-30s as the Russian fighter and the Rafale complemented each other rather than the former replacing the latter.

Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is due to visit Paris in April, which could be an opportunity for some clarification on the potential Rafale deal, Agence-France Presse has reported.

Russian aircraft makers have been eagerly proclaiming their willingness to step in if India ultimately rejects the French jet. Many believe Russia wants to undercut France as punishment for Paris refusing to deliver two Mistral helicopters carriers to Russia amid deepening tensions with Ukraine.

"If [India] needs additional Su-30MKI fighters, then we are ready to work out such an agreement," Sergei Goreslavsky, deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, told the RIA Novosti news agency on Feb. 16. India operates a large fleet of Sukhoi Su-30 fighters, some of which have been locally produced by HAL.

And Russia's RSK MiG says it would offer an upgraded version of its developmental MiG-35 if India reopens the tender.

"We have every chance to compete [for the contract]," MiG chief Sergei Korotkov said at Aero India on Feb. 18, according to the RIA Novosti new agency. "We have not lost hope that a future tender or competition will be announced."

India remains dependent on Russia to supply weaponry and the two countries have been successful in conducting joint development programs involving advanced technologies, including the co-production of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile.

"Efforts will be made to modernize the Indian defense forces with emphasis on Make-in-India defense programs," an Indian MoD official said. "India remains committed to buy advanced technologies."

India's dependence on Russia for the bulk of its weapons systems, said defense analyst Nitin Mehta.

"India wants to buy advanced systems like the Rafale, even at a higher cost," he said. "[But] dependence on Russians will remain ... and it would be difficult to find the resources to replace these with advanced systems immediately."

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said the Su-35S would enter Russian service this year as part of the expansion of the Air Force and Naval Aviation branch.

"Currently, we're testing a new Su-35S multifunctional fighter jet. This year, the new aircraft should enter service. This is the main task for this year," Shoigu said in February.

China is also considering a purchase of Su-35s. A February report by Zvezda, a television network run by the Russian military, said that long-running talks might conclude with a deal to buy 24 fighters on May 19.

Chemezov said that the contract, if signed, would provide China with the fourth-generation Su-35, not India's fifth-generation S model.

"This aircraft is called Su-35-4 plus PAK-FA generation and we are negotiating with China and we are in progress and I hope it will be over soon. I wouldn't like to discuss contracts that have still not been signed," he said. "The important point is that this is a very unique aircraft that has not been delivered to any country."

Another potential customer for the Su-35 is Egypt. Last fall, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi signed an arms deal reportedly worth $3.5 billion. Egyptian media reported that the package included Su-35s.

But Chemezov said no firm purchase deal had been settled.

"We have not signed anything with Egypt; we signed an intention protocol and we are negotiating it. I hope soon we will sign a contract," he said.

Experts have suggested that Egypt, long a customer of US arms makers, would have trouble integrating Russian hardware.

"This would require a significant investment and both sides have been in negotiations for years without results," said Ruslan Aliev, of Moscow's Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.

But Chemezov said the two countries have already agreed on training protocols in case the purchase goes through.

"As a matter of fact, the terms and conditions of the contract that have been signed maintain not only the delivery and other terms but also the training," he said. "First the pilot will be trained in Russia and later in Egypt, as an example when we supplied the helicopters to the Pentagon, which were then delivered to Afghanistan the pilots took their training to Russia."

[Philip]

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subc ... 0107000057

China's 'gift' of Z-10 helicopters to Pakistan raises suspicion

Staff Reporter 2015-01-07 China's Z-10 attack helicopter. (Internet photo)

China's reported decision to present Pakistan three Z-10 attack helicopters as a "gift" this year has raised suspicions of ulterior motives, says Duowei News, a US-based Chinese political news outlet.

Citing unconfirmed Russian media reports, Duowei claims that although Pakistan had shown an interest purchasing the Z-10s, which are designed by Russia's Kamov Design Bureau under contract from Beijing, China decided to give the helicopters to its "closest friend" for free.

The Z-10s, designed primarily for anti-tank missions with secondary air-to-air capabilities, will reportedly be added to the Pakistan Army aviation fleet and be deployed in the ongoing fight against terrorism in the country. The helicopter is said to be capable of targeting the enemy in the air or on the ground with a range of 3-4 kilometers without appearing on radar.

Some military experts have cast doubt on the effectiveness of the Z-10 on counterterrorism operations, saying that its WZ-9 operation engine has relatively low power as well as a smaller payload and weaker defensive capabilities in comparison to other attack helicopters.

Even if the reports of the gift are true, Duowei said, the new Z-10 helicopters will only enhance Pakistan's position against India, which is about to pair its domestically produced light combat helicopters with newly imported AH-64 Apache attack helicopters manufactured by Boeing. Though there is still a sizable gap between the power systems of Z-10s and Apaches, the Chinese aircraft's body design and weapon system configurations are comparable to the world's most advanced attack helicopters, especially because of the excellent performance of its TY-90 air-to-air missiles.

For China, the "gift" to Pakistan could serve as a gift for the givers as well, as it might allow the PLA to see how the Z-10s perform in actual combat situations, providing valuable data for further research and development, Duowei said. China may have already been collecting information on its domestically produced weaponry acquired by Pakistan in recent years, including the MBT-3000 tank, the JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft and the F-22P general purpose frigate. The decision to make the Z-10s a gift instead of selling them could therefore stem from Pakistan's limited defense budget and China's relatively robust arms industry, Duowei added.

[Sid]

^^ Not sure why it's been posted in Indian Military thread, but in IT world this is called "Alpha" release. Anyways beggars cant be choosers. They are more then happy to receive Chinese systems at little or no cost.

Now America will try to one-up China by giving even more free stuff to Porkies.

god... sometimes its fun to be Porky

[John]

That article is wrong, Check the source of the article phillip. Also pakistan evaluated Z 10 but choose to spend money on mi 35 which speaks volumes about the former when 40 yr old assault helo is deemed to be better.

[vasu raya]

Given the pace of road construction in the NE, are there plans to develop 'staging runways', actually flat stretches along side the proposed alignment of these roads to enable a C-130 do a LAPES of earth moving equipment? the only alternative being heli lift with an Mi-26

[titash]

http://www.janes.com/article/49101/aero ... ia-s-hawks

If this news is true, we'll be adding 100+ ASRAAM missile armed interceptors for close in air defence. During the cold war, the RAF used radar equipped Tornado ADVs to vector radarless sidewinder armed hawks to intercept soviet bombers.

While we'd prefer radar/BVR equipped LCAs, the Hawks can be useful in point air defence roles, and should be able to force mission kills (if not actual kills) on intruding PAF/PLAAF strike aircraft.

[Aditya G]

This is a prudent decision by IAF though it could have been taken sooner.

With falling squadron strength, these AJTs can perform some of the routine missions and save flight hours on the Big SUs and others for other missions. Something similar to how Sukanya class OPVs leads to higher availability of Frigates and Destroyers.

The missions for AJT can be:

- UAV interception
- Delivery of laser guided munitions lased by Drones or vice versa.
- CAP over civilian VAs and VPs (eg: Delhi or Bombay during major international events)
- Close air support (army style )

The Navy should further develop a CATOBAR variant if INS Vishal adopts that system.

http://www.janes.com/article/49101/aero ... ia-s-hawks

If this news is true, we'll be adding 100+ ASRAAM missile armed interceptors for close in air defence. During the cold war, the RAF used radar equipped Tornado ADVs to vector radarless sidewinder armed hawks to intercept soviet bombers.

While we'd prefer radar/BVR equipped LCAs, the Hawks can be useful in point air defence roles, and should be able to force mission kills (if not actual kills) on intruding PAF/PLAAF strike aircraft.

[tsarkar]

On staffing,

In peacetime stations, units are supposed to engage in field exercises and familiarize with newer weapons and tactics, something not possible during field postings. Officers & men also take up courses to hone their skills, that they would otherwise be unable during field postings. Equipment is also serviced & overhauled during these phases.

However, one thing any fighting arm should constantly evaluate, is the teeth to tail ratio.

Regarding the staffing of IN ships, the excess of personnel is to ensure adequate staffing during combat situations, rotation of crew during high intensity & long drawn operations, damage control, and landing parties.

For example, during anti piracy or humanitarian relief operations, its these "excess crew" who do these tasks. "Usual" Gunnery or Anti Submarine crew do their usual specialization.

If a enemy submarine comes up to support a terrorist boat, the "usual crew" can engage the enemy submarine while "excess crew" can deal with pirate/terrorist boat. Helps avoid the situation, "Oh, our sonar operator is doing VBSS on the pirate boat."

So "more boots on the ground" is a well thought out military strategy, not a sign of inefficiency as foolishly claimed by Western Militaries. They learnt that lesson the hard way in Afghanistan.

[VinodTK]

IAF wants new tech for Ladakh air bases

Extreme cold conditions in Ladakh, Jammu and Kashmir, are hindering plans for speedy expansion of Indian Air Force (IAF) bases to counter a surging China, forcing a rethink on existing building techniques.

The IAF has asked for newer technologies that will enable rapid construction and sustain smooth operations during winters when temperatures drop to -30°C with heavy snow.

The Ministry of Defence has already given its nod to develop an airfield at Nyoma — a 13,300-ft-high plateau in south eastern Ladakh — for fighter jet operations and expand the existing one at Kargil. Nyoma is 40 km from the Line of Actual Control (LAC) – the defacto border with China. The Kargil airfield is less than 10 km from the Line of Control (LoC) with Pakistan in northern part of Ladakh.

The IAF has suggested to the MoD that carrying out building work only during four-month summer-autumn in Ladakh — between late May and September — would take years to develop airfield infrastructure. Thus, newer technologies need to be adopted.

Sources said the IAF had suggested that technologies in perennially cold countries be studied which could speed up construction work beyond the existing short period and keep day operations in areas like Nyoma in South eastern Ladakh uninterrupted during winters.

Also, the airfield undergoes weather-related changes in the severe winter. Some kind of method is needed to ensure proper friction for fighter jets to land or take-off. At present, the construction is labour-intensive and only for four months of the summer. India has two full-fledged airbases at Leh and Thoise that allow operations of all types.

Nyoma, at present, is a mud-paved advanced landing ground (ALG) that allows landing of fixed-wing transport planes like the C-17, C-130J, the IL 76 and the AN 32, but fighter jets would need a much harder paved surface. Nyoma sits at a junction from where three pressure points along the LAC — Demchok, Chushul and Chumar sector — are close by.

Indian strategic planners have ruled out having a full operational usage of the ALG’s at Fukche and Chushul as they are deemed too close to the LAC, rather Chinese watch towers overlook these ALG’s.

The Kargil airstrip is just 6,000-ft long and allows only smaller planes like AN32 or the C-130-Js to land. It will need to be expanded for operations of planes like the IL76 that have greater carrying capacity.

Military developments in western parts of Tibet and Xinjiang province means China has readied seven airbases on its side in areas of western Tibet and Xinjiang province adjoining Ladakh.

The Indian security establishment has inputs that Beijing now has the capability to launch fighter aircraft carrying deadly strike weapons or transport planes carrying tonnes of equipment or hundreds of troops to land then close to Indian forward defence lines along the LAC. These fully-functional airfields virtually form a ‘ring’ around Ladakh.

A senior official explained that Kashgar, Korla, Yarkand, Hotan, Cherchen (Qiemo), Ngari Gunsa and Gardzong, have operational airfields.

[Indranil]

Many had not understood what an accelerated stall (g-stall) is when we were discussing the IJT. Here is an example. Great example of flying, and some great luck though.

[youtube]xkwKqD9ylLo&t=54[/youtube]

Once again, an accelerated stall is when a plane stalls at a speed much higher than its stall speed, and at an AoA lower than its critical angle. This can be done inadvertently by a rookie student pilot, and a trainer aircraft should be safely recoverable from this stall within 2-3 spins before it becomes physiological impossible for the trainee to maintain sense of orientation and control over squishy parts of his body, forget the plane.

[shiv]

http://www.janes.com/article/49101/aero ... ia-s-hawks

If this news is true, we'll be adding 100+ ASRAAM missile armed interceptors for close in air defence. During the cold war, the RAF used radar equipped Tornado ADVs to vector radarless sidewinder armed hawks to intercept soviet bombers.

While we'd prefer radar/BVR equipped LCAs, the Hawks can be useful in point air defence roles, and should be able to force mission kills (if not actual kills) on intruding PAF/PLAAF strike aircraft.

What will be used for attack roles? In all previous conflict, attack and transport sorties outnumbered air defence sorties.

[Singha]

IAF needs to look no further than siberia how the russians work from there.
even khan has major base like Elmendorf in alaska. they have a composite wing of c130,c17,E3,f22 based there
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... _edge1.jpg

[titash]

http://www.janes.com/article/49101/aero ... ia-s-hawks

If this news is true, we'll be adding 100+ ASRAAM missile armed interceptors for close in air defence. During the cold war, the RAF used radar equipped Tornado ADVs to vector radarless sidewinder armed hawks to intercept soviet bombers.

While we'd prefer radar/BVR equipped LCAs, the Hawks can be useful in point air defence roles, and should be able to force mission kills (if not actual kills) on intruding PAF/PLAAF strike aircraft.

What will be used for attack roles? In all previous conflict, attack and transport sorties outnumbered air defence sorties.

Shiv-ji, it appears the upcoming conflict will be a 2 front war with the IAF outnumbered in 4+ generation fighters by at least 3:1...there won't be too many attack sorties unlike 1965/1971. With the PAF/PLAAF trying for air superiority, any ASRAAM Hawks will be welcome...unless we order more LCAs on the double

[Karan M]

Thakur_B, Nikhil_P, Maitya, Prasanna Simha, Kartik - gents are you interested in contributing to the R&D details on the BR Main site? Do let me or rahul m know.

[Nikhil T]

Last batch of upgraded An-32s still stuck in Ukraine due to conflict

NEW DELHI: In a direct hit to India of a far-away conflict that is threatening Russia's relations with the western world, a batch of Indian Air Force military transport aircraft are stuck in Ukraine due to the ongoing border conflict and internal strife.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has revealed that the last batch of Indian Air Force AN 32 transport aircraft that had been sent to Ukraine as part of a larger $400 million deal to modernise the fleet and extend its service life are now stuck because of the conflict.

The defence minister has said that officials are working on getting the aircraft back from the crisis-torn nation and that he is hopeful that things would be sorted out shortly. The Soviet-origin AN 32 aircraft are the transport workhorse of the Indian Air Force and are vital to maintaining and supplying troops located in the Eastern and Northern borders.

As per a 2009 contract with Ukraine's state-owned Ukrspetsexport Corp, India was to send 40 aircraft for upgrade over four years, starting 2011.

At least 30 of these have been returned. Another 65 of the aircraft were to be upgraded with Ukrainian help at an Indian facility in Kanpur. The upgrade would extend the service life of the transporters from 25 years to 40 years.

While several batches of the aircraft have been refurbished and flown back to India since 2011, Parrikar's statement indicates that the last batch of 5-10 aircraft that were to be completed by March 2014 are now stuck with efforts on the retrieve them.

The conflict with Russia has severely affected Ukraine's industry as large parts of the nation that provided equipment are now under rebel hands. Parrikar said efforts are on to find alternate sources for Ukrainian spares with efforts on to find suppliers in Israel and France.

Also, flying of military aircraft has been restricted in Ukraine after the shooting town of Malaysian Airlines MH 17 last year.

[shiv]

Shiv-ji, it appears the upcoming conflict will be a 2 front war with the IAF outnumbered in 4+ generation fighters by at least 3:1...there won't be too many attack sorties unlike 1965/1971.

I disagree with this analysis. What you are saying is that more than half the Indian Air force and pilots trained and honed for attack missions will sit idle like 1962. There is no way this will happen. I am in such intense and profound disagreement with your view that I know I cannot convey all that i would like to say by typing - it is more easily done in a face to face conversation. No insult intended. I am going to drop the subject here and now.

[KiranM]

Shiv-ji, it appears the upcoming conflict will be a 2 front war with the IAF outnumbered in 4+ generation fighters by at least 3:1...there won't be too many attack sorties unlike 1965/1971.

I disagree with this analysis. What you are saying is that more than half the Indian Air force and pilots trained and honed for attack missions will sit idle like 1962. There is no way this will happen. I am in such intense and profound disagreement with your view that I know I cannot convey all that i would like to say by typing - it is more easily done in a face to face conversation. No insult intended. I am going to drop the subject here and now.

Also to add many jingoes have this imagination that in a 2 front war PAF and PLAAF will throw all their fighters at us in air-to-air role at the same time like knights of yore (hence the need for == in fighter numbers). People need to consider that accepted 1:3 ratio of defenders versus attackers applies in some measure to aerial battle as well. And any sane marshal/ general will not throw all his assets at same time and all assets will not be configured for air-to-air (Offensive Counter Air). If they did all we need to do is sit out the battle and snipe with SAMs/ BVR shots.
Best example is USAF defending Korean skies against large number of commie Migs with sometimes as less as a couple of flights of sabres.

[shiv]

Also to add many jingoes have this imagination that in a 2 front war PAF and PLAAF will throw all their fighters at us in air-to-air role at the same time like knights of yore (hence the need for == in fighter numbers). People need to consider that accepted 1:3 ratio of defenders versus attackers applies in some measure to aerial battle as well. And any sane marshal/ general will not throw all his assets at same time and all assets will not be configured for air-to-air (Offensive Counter Air). If they did all we need to do is sit out the battle and snipe with SAMs/ BVR shots.
Best example is USAF defending Korean skies against large number of commie Migs with sometimes as less as a couple of flights of sabres.

True. What is forgotten is that attacking aircraft are coming from X (number) of airfields. If you take out those airfields then their aircraft cannot attack no matter how many aircraft they might have at their disposal. Also cutting C&C centers, ther radars etc will reduce the attacks on us. This requires attack aircraft and not this internet air warfare dogfighter top gun dream of Su 30 12 AAMs, LCA 6 AAMs, Mirage 2000 6 AAMs, MiG 29 8 AAMs, Hawk 2 AAMs, Jaguar 2 AAMs all buzzing about waiting to shoot down others with nary a thought about the fact that enemy infrastructure remains intact.

That is one way to give up air dominance before a conflict starts based on the calculau that we have X aircraft they have X times 4 aircraft. We are screwed so let us simply not attack them and preserve ourselves. I advise BRF Jingoes to read Jasjit Singhs book on air warfare. Read first and then pass comments.

[member_22733]

shiv saar,

Such installations can be taken down quickly with something like Brahmos no? High accuracy destruction of key targets in rapid succession, fits in with cold start too.

Most of Bakistan's air assets are not that "deep" for a Brahmos to run out of range.

Usual disclaimer (noobie wandering into something i know nothing about).

[Thakur_B]

shiv saar,

Such installations can be taken down quickly with something like Brahmos no? High accuracy destruction of key targets in rapid succession, fits in with cold start too.

Most of Bakistan's air assets are not that "deep" for a Brahmos to run out of range.

Usual disclaimer (noobie wandering into something i know nothing about).

The farthest point in Pakistan from Indian border is about 800 km, Brahmos range is 600 km. 90% of Pakistan is covered by Brahmos.