Indo-Israel: News and Discussion

[devesh]

The average Israeli knows they have brutalised the Arab. The more intelligent Israeli knows they have brutalised themselves.

Indians need to get their validation from within not elsewhere.

Again with this bullshit Arab sympathy. Really, are we so sado-masochistic that we love to coo our historic enemies to sleep when they come crying about the big bad boo-boo in their neighborhood?

I mean really, we love sympathizing with people who follow an ideology that has been an inveterate enemy of our people and our very civilization for more than a 1000 years now.

[Arjun]

Has there been any post-poll survey on which way the Ashkenazi voted in Israel ?

I want to validate whether the media portrayal of Ashkenazi being overwhelmingly against Likud and Netanyahu is correct.

[svenkat]

As someone who jumped in from nowhere on seeing AGuptajis statement on 'foundational myths' of Israel which have no bearing on Indo-Israel relations today,I want to say India and Israel have no convergence on the issue of Islamic terrorism though they have meeting points.The Shiite resistance to Sunni fundamentalism is something which we welcome whether in Afghanisthan or elsewhere.The Shiites break the exaggerated monolithic(the ridiculous simplistic monotheistic) claims of Islam.Also Israel has no issues with Sunni Islam except wrt to its own territory.They have no problems with pak/barbaria except if jehadis attack Jerusalem.This is the view of the Anglo-American-Jewish establishment in NY/London.

The Western elite believe in 'Universalism' tailored to white/jewish needs.Israel is their Achilles heel,their sentimental weakness in their otherwise cold blooded ruthlessness.

[JE Menon]

Actually Arjun, Netanyahu is himself of Ashkenazi origin I think - Latvian Jewish roots IIRC. But yes, this Ashkenazi thing needs to be checked...

On the other hand, the simple (if simplistic) explanation may be that Ashkenazi Jews (European looking) tend to be rich, mix with the liberal elite and therefore think (at least publicly) like their social counterparts in Europe or in the US - where support for the guy getting thrashed even if he is a rapist is generally taken for granted, never mind that if you let him go he's going to return and likely commit the same crime again.

[A_Gupta]

^^^ All this brouhaha because I pointed out that like in Pakistan, 20 families dominate the Israeli economy (and both states are founded on religious identity) Does this fact have anything to do with Indo-Israeli relations? Yes it does, e.g., it is akin to knowing the effects of the Koch brothers and Sheldon Adelson on US politics, and thus, who will be in charge and dealing with India.

But that parallel led to some very upset people who claimed something about how Israel was founded (either that, or else mentioning Israel and Pakistan in the same breath is a mortal sin) - clearly they thought that how Israel was founded had something to do with Indo-Israel relations; and I responded, and so on and so forth. Some other people thought that quoting a Bank of Israel report was a Leftist calumny against Israel, and so on and so forth.

Sometimes BRF is not very different from the dorky Indian media.

[KLNMurthy]

OK, let's say Israel bad.

What next? I'm trying to understand what the key point being made is, what is the taqleef, the khulji?

Not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that any deviation from the party line of "Israel is now our best friend, Jews are like Brahmins onlee, we must have solidarity with Israel and Jews at the expense of calumniating Indian patriots" equal-equal to saying Israel is "bad"? What does that mean anyway? Did nuance and complexity get cancer and die, and no one told me about it?

[I'm guessing the answer to my rhetorical questions would be 'no', as far as you, JE Menon are concerned, but those questions do represent my irritation and frustration at a certain "mahaul" in the Hindu-Right community in general]

Anyway, so what if Israel is "bad" according to whatever definition? Why should India do anything about it, besides continuing more or less what it is doing now? How is Israel="bad" or Israel="good" India's problem at all?

My own khulji and takleef is the combination of the following two things:

* IMO, and I hope IYO also, a self-realized India holds the key to any chance of breaking the inter-Abrahamic West Asian deadlock. But there is no chance of Abrahamics including Jews and Israelis ever seeing Hindus and Hinduism in that light, let alone have earnest discussions and fights among themselves about how they are being insufficiently loyal to Hindus and India.

* On the other hand, while India arguably benefits from arms trade and collaboration with Israel today, and should continue to do so, there is nothing crucial that Israel has for India that will either significantly facilitate or hinder India's quest for coming into its own. Israel is just not that important to India. Yet, we have among jingos a substantial faction that apparently wants to enforce a kind of orthodoxy of tolerating the saying of only wonderful things about Israel, and propagating the absurd idea that such orthodoxy is somehow crucial for India's journey--we have found a kindred spirit, a long-lost brother in suffering and so on.

[KLNMurthy]

the vid I referred to was openly proselytizing.

Irrelevant IMO. We have friendly and oftentimes fawning relationships with countries that today spawn evangelicals, and with countries that openly despise us (USA and China). So, proselytization doesn't matter to us in practice, despite Hindu-Right grumbling about it. When it comes down to it, it's free speech and we can't stop it, except maybe restrict it in a narrow sense using Article 295 and friends.

If we previously believed that Jews don't proselytize and today have new information that some of them do, indeed proselytize, what does that change for us, in a qualitative sense? Does the devotion and loyalty some of us seem to have for Israel and the Jews hinge on their being evangelicals or not? If so, why pick specifically on the Jews in this regard?

[KLNMurthy]

Israel is a terrorist nation. But it's not a perfect world and there are no permanent enemies or friends only self interests.
India need Israel to achieve parity in certain defense technologies to a point from where we take off on our own and which is required to counter our adversaries.

How is Israel a terrorist nation? Where did that come from?

[KLNMurthy]

OK, let's say Israel bad.

What next? I'm trying to understand what the key point being made is, what is the taqleef, the khulji?




My question in general to anyone who wants to answer is, say that's true, that Israel is guilty of all that is accused of: what next? What do people propose to do differently than we are doing? As far as is visible, India's Israel policy is realistic in the extreme and vice versa.


JEMenon, you are missing the point. This is not about Israel, my point has more to do with Indians' lack of sophistication. Judaism is anathema to inclusivist creeds. It has more in common perhaps with a tribal totem, rather than anything remotely like Indian traditions. The modern state of Israel is responsible for the types of human rights violations even the west finds repugnant. If Kashmir were even remotely under a siege like the occupied territories, India would be a pariah in the most punctilious west. Of course Europe has sacrificed Arabs to assuage its conscience. Indians are only following suit.

Does this preclude a business/technological relationship to mutual benefit? Not necessarily.

Whoa there. Lack of sophistication, you say?

Yes, Judaism--like all Abrahamic Jehovah-worshipping cults is primitive and infantile. But Jews, over the centuries, managed to make silk purses out of that sow's ear--developed very important skills like close textual reading and criticism in the context of Torah reading, that can rival any of our Bhashya-kartas.

So Kashmir==Palestine? You (presumably an Indian patriot) really want to go there? How are they the same? West Bank & Gaza are, under any law that you can think of, are occupied territories and Israel is severely constrained in what it is allowed to do there. All of Jammu and Kashmir is Indian territory, its residents are Indian citizens and those that are not illegally occupied by Pakistan, vote in Indian elections like everyone else. I'll stop there, it is not my job here to school you in the utter absurdity and foolishness of this equal-equal you are drawing here.

As to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, unfortunately this is what has to happen when a relatively more civilized and better-equipped Abrahamic population is threatened with extinction or enslavement by their more savage Abrahamic cousins. The Jews and Israel are under no obligation to put their existence in real jeopardy just to protect other people's sensibilities. (As I noted in other posts, better ways of handling the problem are possible, but being Abrahamics they are incapable of seeing those ways).

Anyway, the rona-dhona about Israel bombing the Palestinians has no value in my book, considering that most such people seem perfectly fine with ignoring an honest-to-goodness genocide by pakistan. If I had my way, anyone that brings up the awfulness of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians one time should be forced to first denounce 1971 paki genocide a hundred times. And that goes for the Palestinians also. Otherwise, they should admit that they don't have any problem at all in principle with innocent people being slaughtered in large numbers by a superior military power, just a problem with their personal favorite people slaughtered. And I would be under no obligation to treat their favorites as my favorites.

[Arjun]

Actually Arjun, Netanyahu is himself of Ashkenazi origin I think - Latvian Jewish roots IIRC. But yes, this Ashkenazi thing needs to be checked...

On the other hand, the simple (if simplistic) explanation may be that Ashkenazi Jews (European looking) tend to be rich, mix with the liberal elite and therefore think (at least publicly) like their social counterparts in Europe or in the US - where support for the guy getting thrashed even if he is a rapist is generally taken for granted, never mind that if you let him go he's going to return and likely commit the same crime again.

The primary point of difference between the liberals and Nationalists seems to be the issue of the 2-state solution for Palestinians.

I think we have to take the change in atmosphere over the last couple of years into account. Many who would have argued earlier for the rights of Palestinians are having serious doubts today of the ability of Muslims in that region of the world to run and administer a stable, non-terrorist nation that does not hit the headlines of the world for some terrorist atrocity or other.

Anyway, here's a 2-year old article on the voting preferences of Ashkenazis (Traditional Jews vote Likud-Beytenu, while the Orthodox choose Bennett):



Among the non-undecided Ashkenazis even at that time - right wing parties had more support than the centrists / left. Of course, Russian Jews who are the biggest ethnicity in Israel and solidly behind Netanyahu get counted under Ashkenazi.

[Arjun]

the vid I referred to was openly proselytizing.

Irrelevant IMO.

Don't agree. Shared values do play a role in international relations - even if in many cases they may be overshadowed by strategic / realpolitic considerations.

As India gets more powerful over the next several decades - it will start to grade nations on the basis of shared values (ie all other parameters being equal direct more trade etc with nations sharing certain values). That the Jews tend to be non-proselytizing IS an important differentiator as compared to the US or Europe.

[JE Menon]

Thanks KLNM, your answer to sanjaykumar means I don't have to...

[gakakkad]

Anyway, the rona-dhona about Israel bombing the Palestinians has no value in my book, considering that most such people seem perfectly fine with ignoring an honest-to-goodness genocide by pakistan

+100

they are a bunch of people who were killed and converted for centuries .. And now they defend themselves against the most arguably babaric bunch of people in history of Mankind , and people label them as terrorists..

all this wimmin ,kidz etc is nonsense ... If Bakees shield there nude nooks with women and kids during war, we would not jeopardize our lives ,showing compassion for that lot...

Baaki-== Israel is a bit of a stretch...

onlee thing common between israel/palestine and cashmere dispute , is that the Bri-turds had an hand in both the messes ..that is where the similarity ends... Jew have one place they can call home historically..And they have a right to defend it...

Having said that Israeli fanboyism too is counter productive..

[gakakkad]

@ Arjun , Interesting topic you raised..One needs to be able to understand the classification of Jews w.r.t ethnicity, liturgy and political preference ... They are a complex bunch of people ...And nomenclature makes it even more confusing...

for instance Orthodoxy /conservative Jews are often Anti Zionists while liberal/reformed Jews are quite often pro zionists ..

Russian Jews are ashkenazi ...always have been ...


one must understand Jewry to truly understand Israel and Middle east..


classification of Jews by ethnicity

Ashkenazi.70% of Jews.. Usually lived in oirope during middle ages..Formed 90% of Jews ..6 million killed in WW2.. Genetically , there origin seems to be middle eastern...MT DNA analysis reveals that they did mingle with european women...Yiddish is their language..these are the Brainy Jews ..and also have some interesting genetic diseases..

Sephardic..- Iberian peninsula ..spain and portugal..they faced inquisition by catholics...phenomenon of crypto Judaism was commonly seen...similar to taqquiya..ie pretending to be xtian to prevent persecultion...

The above have differences in practice of jewry , traditions and Minhag ..In early days of Israel these 2 did not get along well..


from jewish encyclopedia

What is the difference between Sephardic and Ashkenazic?

The beliefs of Sephardic Judaism are basically in accord with those of Orthodox Judaism, though Sephardic interpretations of halakhah (Jewish Law) are somewhat different than Ashkenazic ones. The best-known of these differences relates to the holiday of Pesach (Passover): Sephardic Jews may eat rice, corn, peanuts and beans during this holiday, while Ashkenazic Jews avoid them. Although some individual Sephardic Jews are less observant than others, and some individuals do not agree with all of the beliefs of traditional Judaism, there is no formal, organized differentiation into movements as there is in Ashkenazic Judaism.

Historically, Sephardic Jews have been more integrated into the local non-Jewish culture than Ashkenazic Jews. In the Christian lands where Ashkenazic Judaism flourished, the tension between Christians and Jews was great, and Jews tended to be isolated from their non-Jewish neighbors, either voluntarily or involuntarily. In the Islamic lands where Sephardic Judaism developed, there was less segregation and oppression. Sephardic Jewish thought and culture was strongly influenced by Arabic and Greek philosophy and science.

Sephardic Jews have a different pronunciation of a few Hebrew vowels and one Hebrew consonant, though most Ashkenazim are adopting Sephardic pronunciation now because it is the pronunciation used in Israel. See Hebrew Alphabet. Sephardic prayer services are somewhat different from Ashkenazic ones, and Sephardim use different melodies in their services. Sephardic Jews also have different holiday customs and different traditional foods. For example, Ashkenazic Jews eat latkes (potato pancakes) to celebrate Chanukkah; Sephardic Jews eat sufganiot (jelly doughnuts).

The Yiddish language, which many people think of as the international language of Judaism, is really the language of Ashkenazic Jews. Sephardic Jews have their own international language: Ladino, which was based on Spanish and Hebrew in the same way that Yiddish was based on German and Hebrew

other interesting article

Understanding the Sephardi-Ashkenazi Split

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sha ... 41033.html

Sephardim, Ashkenazim, and Ultra-Orthodox Racism in Israel

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sha ... 15692.html


Mizrahic Jews -- these form 60% of Israeli Jews.. these lived amongst the Arabs...

other ethnicity also exist like Bene israeli , Chinese jews etc..

Classification of Jews by Liturgy ie adherence to Torah

Orthodox
further 2 types

Ultra-orthodox.. Haredic ..rigid adherence to Torah..usually anti-zionist and anti-israel..some groups to such an extent that they have even supported palestine..

however amongst americans some pro-israeli groups have emerged...in US they usually vote republican because they are more "conservative" w.r.t homosexuality ,abortion and other bible belt issues that GOP likes..

some movements of of orthodox zionism too have emerged..

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/israel/ ... arta.shtml

They have publicly burned the Israeli flag and allied themselves with the Palestinian leadership and cause. Neturei Karta's website states: "We seek to live in the land of Palestine as anti-Zionist Jews. To reside as loyal and peaceful Palestinian citizens, in peace and harmony with our Muslim Brethren." The following article discusses the reasons for their anti-Zionism. Reprinted with the permission of The Continuum International Publishing Group from The Encyclopedia of Judaism, edited by Jacob Neusner, Alan Avery-Peck, and William Scott Green.

Hasidic Milder orthodox


"enlightenment movement.. 19th century... move to liberal traditions...and less adherence to torah..

Reform: US..Reform movement made Judaism liberal.. 50% Jews in US marry non Jews...most are pro zionist...anti-Israelis amongst this lot are analogous to bleeding heart Yindian liberals..like Jon stuart.. usually vote for democrat in the US as they are "liberal"

Liberal: UK similar to above


there are many combinations of the above...

write more when I have more time...

DISCLAIMER..i am not an expert..but read a lot about jews and israel over the years..

[Arjun]

@ Arjun , Interesting topic you raised...

GAK, Thanks for those couple of very useful links.

Some of the data is familiar - since I've involved myself into a project looking into data in some adjacent areas. But others were new.

For those who are wondering as to the relevance of some of this detail - one aspect to consider is that Jews and Han Chinese are going to remain the primary competition to global Indians in their professional lives...and understanding the competition better is always useful.

for instance Orthodoxy /conservative Jews are often Anti Zionists while liberal/reformed Jews are quite often pro zionists ..

Yes...and I had pointed this out a couple of times to AGupta in response to his posts on the increase in orthodoxy in Israel.

Russian Jews are ashkenazi ...always have been ...

Well they seem to be classified officially as Ashkenazi - but they may not actually be so in reality. Many of them are Mizrahi / Persian Jews who had migrated up the Caucasus. This matters since Russia is now the largest country of origin for Israelites.

Also, while the Ashkenazi form the majority (70%+) in the global diaspora - in Israel itself their population is slightly smaller than the non-Ashkenazi.

[JE Menon]

KLNM,

>>>Not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that any deviation from the party line of "Israel is now our best friend, Jews are like Brahmins onlee, we must have solidarity with Israel and Jews at the expense of calumniating Indian patriots" equal-equal to saying Israel is "bad"? What does that mean anyway? Did nuance and complexity get cancer and die, and no one told me about it?

No, as you suggested, is my answer. But if people are going to say Israel is violating human rights, it is being brutal to the Palestinians, they are oiseaules, etc...(I summarised all that as "bad"), I think it is incumbent on them to clarify what exactly they propose as an alternative, i.e., get complex, articulate the nuance. Otherwise, it's just noise. In short bla bla bla "Israel is bad"... OK, so what?

One answer that is emerging seems to be that there is a "fanboy club" for Israel that needs to be kept in pragmatic check. Indeed. No disagreement with that. It is clear that what is being done in terms of India-Israel engagement is purely practical and mutually beneficial. I'm not seeing yet the fanboy activity having an impact, but it may in future and is good to guard against it. This is an Indian issue, not an Israeli one. Anything else?

[sanjaykumar]

So Kashmir==Palestine? You (presumably an Indian patriot) really want to go there? How are they the same? West Bank & Gaza are, under any law that you can think of, are occupied territories and Israel is severely constrained in what it is allowed to do there. All of Jammu and Kashmir is Indian territory, its residents are Indian citizens and those that are not illegally occupied by Pakistan, vote in Indian elections like everyone else. I'll stop there, it is not my job here to school you in the utter absurdity and foolishness of this equal-equal you are drawing here.
In debate it always helpful to keep in mind the distinction between implication and inference.


As to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, unfortunately this is what has to happen when a relatively more civilized and better-equipped Abrahamic population is threatened with extinction or enslavement by their more savage Abrahamic cousins. The Jews and Israel are under no obligation to put their existence in real jeopardy just to protect other people's sensibilities. (As I noted in other posts, better ways of handling the problem are possible, but being Abrahamics they are incapable of seeing those ways).

Anyway, the rona-dhona about Israel bombing the Palestinians has no value in my book, considering that most such people seem perfectly fine with ignoring an honest-to-goodness genocide by pakistan. If I had my way, anyone that brings up the awfulness of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians one time should be forced to first denounce 1971 paki genocide a hundred times. And that goes for the Palestinians also. Otherwise, they should admit that they don't have any problem at all in principle with innocent people being slaughtered in large numbers by a superior military power, just a problem with their personal favorite people slaughtered. And I would be under no obligation to treat their favorites as my favorites.


How does your selective moral outrage view the Christian exterminartion of European Jewry?


Here is a finger exercise:click around the internet to find Jewish and Palestinian babies ith bullet holes in their tiny bodies, or with their skulls blown off. It will be perhaps apparent whose existence is more threatened.

[vishvak]

I have not seen much, if at all ANY, pictures of kids of Kashmiri Pandit community acting stupid with guns etc. I think this kids with guns + bullet holes is kind of OT here, going by our own experience in Kashmir.

[Tuvaluan]

The only reason to form alliances is not "friendship" or "love and admiration" -- the basic fact is to be in mutually beneficial relationships while allowing freedom to do actions within boundaries without affecting the other party. Israel presents India with a chance to have such a relationship, unlike the remaining muslim countries in west asia, that actively support fomenting terrorism in India and funding violent islamist ideologues in India. Bulletholes in babies are not relevant -- nasty sh*t happens everywhere, get over it, and thank yourself you are not there. Empathy is of no use if you can do nothing about fixing it, other than cloud your judgement for self-preservation due to emotional overload.

[KLNMurthy]

So Kashmir==Palestine? You (presumably an Indian patriot) really want to go there? How are they the same? West Bank & Gaza are, under any law that you can think of, are occupied territories and Israel is severely constrained in what it is allowed to do there. All of Jammu and Kashmir is Indian territory, its residents are Indian citizens and those that are not illegally occupied by Pakistan, vote in Indian elections like everyone else. I'll stop there, it is not my job here to school you in the utter absurdity and foolishness of this equal-equal you are drawing here.
In debate it always helpful to keep in mind the distinction between implication and inference.


As to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, unfortunately this is what has to happen when a relatively more civilized and better-equipped Abrahamic population is threatened with extinction or enslavement by their more savage Abrahamic cousins. The Jews and Israel are under no obligation to put their existence in real jeopardy just to protect other people's sensibilities. (As I noted in other posts, better ways of handling the problem are possible, but being Abrahamics they are incapable of seeing those ways).

Anyway, the rona-dhona about Israel bombing the Palestinians has no value in my book, considering that most such people seem perfectly fine with ignoring an honest-to-goodness genocide by pakistan. If I had my way, anyone that brings up the awfulness of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians one time should be forced to first denounce 1971 paki genocide a hundred times. And that goes for the Palestinians also. Otherwise, they should admit that they don't have any problem at all in principle with innocent people being slaughtered in large numbers by a superior military power, just a problem with their personal favorite people slaughtered. And I would be under no obligation to treat their favorites as my favorites.


How does your selective moral outrage view the Christian exterminartion of European Jewry?


Here is a finger exercise:click around the internet to find Jewish and Palestinian babies ith bullet holes in their tiny bodies, or with their skulls blown off. It will be perhaps apparent whose existence is more threatened.

I find that my fury at Abrahamics attacking and killing Indics uses up my capacity for moral outrage. I select India and Indics. How about you?

As for the nazi depredations, I care more about the Indic Gypsy victims than the Jews. Holocaust, Israel bombing Palestinian babies etc., is sad but expected consequence of Abrahamics acting towards each other according to their savage programming.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[KLNMurthy]

KLNM,

>>>Not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that any deviation from the party line of "Israel is now our best friend, Jews are like Brahmins onlee, we must have solidarity with Israel and Jews at the expense of calumniating Indian patriots" equal-equal to saying Israel is "bad"? What does that mean anyway? Did nuance and complexity get cancer and die, and no one told me about it?

No, as you suggested, is my answer. But if people are going to say Israel is violating human rights, it is being brutal to the Palestinians, they are oiseaules, etc...(I summarised all that as "bad"), I think it is incumbent on them to clarify what exactly they propose as an alternative, i.e., get complex, articulate the nuance. Otherwise, it's just noise. In short bla bla bla "Israel is bad"... OK, so what?

One answer that is emerging seems to be that there is a "fanboy club" for Israel that needs to be kept in pragmatic check. Indeed. No disagreement with that. It is clear that what is being done in terms of India-Israel engagement is purely practical and mutually beneficial. I'm not seeing yet the fanboy activity having an impact, but it may in future and is good to guard against it. This is an Indian issue, not an Israeli one. Anything else?

May be OT but I find myself more alarmed than you at the taller than mountains fanboyism towards Israel. This may be a manifestation of our own capacity for some aspects of pakiness that we need to confront sooner than later. "Even a small snake should be beaten with a big stick " as we say.

In this thread I was dismayed to find A_Gupta (a poster with whom I have my own disagreements) a value-adding BRFite if there ever was one, getting lynched so to speak for the sake of mindless solidarity with Israel. Seems like Indians including BRFites easily forget what should command their loyalty, just because India is so undemanding.

And I haven't even touched on the opposite "mUDhatvam" of beating mindlessly on Israel by copying from the essentially anti-Indic lefty cookbook.

"The opposite of foolishness is wisdom, not an opposite foolishness." --some smart person whose name escapes my memory.

[gakakkad]

found this at a zionist fan-page..

opinions?

One interesting thing I find on zionist fansites ,is they are an "open market" for proselyting spam...this particular thing is interesting because ,an Indian origin catholic christian is attempting to proselytize-spam a zionist page..

ADMINS re-size image if you can...

One way to understand what is going on in Israel , and thereby even in India to an extent is to observe the discourse of christian media towards Israel/Piss ops and proselytizing attempts..there are a lot of common situations that both of us face..this is one..

why else is it important? because Judeo-Christian Dynamics have pretty much shaped the last centuries evens including ww-2...

[ramana]

Newly converted Xians display this hatred towards Israelis.

Benjamin Disraeli points out how converted Goths attacked Jewish settlers who had no idea of what these folks were talking about.

[ramana]

Was talking to a European origin Israeli. He said there is lot of resentment on the settlers from North Africa whose families are on welfare dole in Israel.

[Arjun]

In this thread I was dismayed to find A_Gupta (a poster with whom I have my own disagreements) a value-adding BRFite if there ever was one, getting lynched so to speak for the sake of mindless solidarity with Israel. Seems like Indians including BRFites easily forget what should command their loyalty, just because India is so undemanding.

Not everything on these boards is about being a loud "jingo" with India 'commanding' undying loyalty, KLNMji. Some of us have a primary commitment towards logic and data, that supersedes all other loyalties.

Every post needs to stand on its own merits. I personally don't approve of aggressive language being employed against anyone, unless there is clear evidence of hypocrisy or repeated refusal to address evidence presented. That has happened a couple of times in my dealings with AGupta - but I would say hesitate to claim that any line has been crossed yet. It maybe that the line was crossed as regards the other poster who did get aggressive with AGupta. Lets not prejudge without knowing the facts.

[Karan Dixit]

Jewish people have to decide whether Israel is worth defending at all cost. And by decide I mean they have to take some concrete steps and move to Israel and join Israeli military. Israel is in dire need of people. Ultimately, it's Jews who have to stand up and fight for Israel for it is quite possible that in future even the U.S. may not be as eager to join Israeli fight as it has been so far.

[Karan M]

In this thread I was dismayed to find A_Gupta (a poster with whom I have my own disagreements) a value-adding BRFite if there ever was one, getting lynched so to speak for the sake of mindless solidarity with Israel. Seems like Indians including BRFites easily forget what should command their loyalty, just because India is so undemanding.

Not everything on these boards is about being a loud "jingo" with India 'commanding' undying loyalty, KLNMji. Some of us have a primary commitment towards logic and data, that supersedes all other loyalties.

Every post needs to stand on its own merits. I personally don't approve of aggressive language being employed against anyone, unless there is clear evidence of hypocrisy or repeated refusal to address evidence presented. That has happened a couple of times in my dealings with AGupta - but I would say hesitate to claim that any line has been crossed yet. It maybe that the line was crossed as regards the other poster who did get aggressive with AGupta. Lets not prejudge without knowing the facts.

When folks like A Gupta go on repeated tirades about Israel speaking about how fundoo jews are a threat to hindooos and how mean jews are to them pore Pals (using sources which use the same lurid language about israeli COIN as they do about any non western nation) and this when fellow Indian's are mostly being positively impacted via the indian establishments work with israel.. then somebody has to call it out... never mind the out and out arrogance of claiming to be above "people who infest BRF" and "folks on BRF are as dorky as the media". oh the intellectual heights there..

hardly a lynch mob in telling somebody used to looking down on others, to behave in the manner they expect others to behave with them.

coming to israel and the jews this, jews that...
in short, naming enemies creates them. picking fights with people who dont harm us and can and are helping us is of no use. if anything, we need to leverage the power the jewish diaspora has for our own benefit by pointing out how india is supporting the jewish arms industry, economy, shared challenges bla bla bla.. instead of gasbag demagoguery about how one day, the bad jews will hurt the pore hindus.

the palestinians have had all the diplo support from us they need.. and as we wail about how the LeT and JuD are arming kids with Aks and brainwashing them with extremist Islam to attack India, Hezbollah and Hamas are doing the same with Israel. Of course the diplomats on both sides for public reasons may posture about the differences and what not, but deep down, the non intellectual pore Hindus who don't have the lofty heads to quote lefty agitprop seem to realize there are common challenges.

Some jews may evangelize - same as some hindus go on asking whites to convert - hardly on the same scale as the industrial strength, missionary and national establishment backed evangelization we see elsewhere. we simply don't have the civilizational faultlines that are being drawn up here. its just practicality. with a few million jews worldwide, they are not looking to take over india's temples anytime. they are in a struggle for their own existence. as are we. common interests mean common

"pro-israel fanboyism" - the pro-Israel fanboyism shown by some teenagers mentioned by some poster above is in all likelihood because they feel some nation is standing up to violent islamist extremism. simple as that. its not rocket science. indian officers in the past have written about how israels decisive action in the face of several terrorist actions should be repeated by india. fanboys much?

next..

when folks like KLNM btw mention that it is india's interest that shias take on sunni extremism (and bypass the fact that the hezbollahs and hamas's of the world are no shrinking violets either) and neglect the fact that the owaisis of india are courting the same folks in the ME..

then no, it is not in India's interest that shiite extremism take off further. was it in India's interest that the iranians conducted those terror attacks against the israelis on Indian soil? or is our memory so short??

fact is over the past decade india was the epitome of a terror appeasing soft state.

hence folks in india look at israel with admiration. not because of their superhuman jewish capabilities but because they have the decisiveness and clarity that they need to protect themselves come what may, as versus debating ad infinitum about whether "hindu males breathing will reduce oxygen for pore xyz" as seems to be the level of discourse amongst india's media and the cretins who pass themselves off as india's intellectual elite and mostly still do. the new administration was supposed to have administered a stiff kick to these wannabes and brought in fresh air, but it too seems to be occupied in either pandering to the same twits or being unable to counter their deliberate attacks. on the plus side, if the NaMo govt delivers on the basics of RKM then all this is just the ELM rubbish that wont swing elections. time will tell.

in the meantime, expect our ties with israel to supercharge so to speak with many "burkha activities" being done openly without fear of backlash. there will be concerns that too much access to our side is not good, but we have not been born y'day either and have protocols in place about what we share, and we don't. an interesting point is that as demanding customers (and not sellers) we tend to receive far more than we have to give (our priorities are different) and hence our secrets will mostly remain ours. unlike the chinese with their ukrainians or pakistanis with their south africans, we are not importing other countries scientists, giving them the free run of our labs and then claiming their work as ours.

[Karan M]

as an example about how actual ties matter (as versus demagoguery of "ooohh those poor Palestinians, those israelis are fundoo only yaar"), when india went to war in 1999, israel immediately worked with us to get several jets operational with newly delivered laser designation & targeting pods. the IAF then jury rigged bombs to work along with them. point to note is israel worked with us. we were under sanctions from others (no prizes for guesses there) or being watched without any active support (OEMs who supplied the platforms). those handful of LGBs had a huge psychological impact on the PA, PAF and boosted the IAF morale. more than that, the IAFs tactics with even dumb bombs and the LDPs were pivotal.

the israelis also provided us with key tech for our BMD program which we developed further on our own.

again, this does not mean israel is doing all this from the goodness of its heart bla bla.. but it is by now a valued ally in our supplier matrix, arguably next to only Russia. like Russia, it mostly keeps quiet on our internal affairs and does not act holier than thou. (same can't be said for several other countries we procure from). that matters. it also indicates their establishment is pragmatic and knows where not to cross india's interests.

to my pore limited non strategic thought process all these lofty declarations of "hindoos cant stand israelis coveting other people's land" etc are just plain rubbish. if that is the case, all it means is hindoos better grow up and start looking after their land either at the yellow sea or the eyeBEE or the NE very closely instead of wailing about other countries while bending over backwards while their own citizens like the pandits get butchered.

asking the israelis to be as idiotic as some of our earlier sooper dooper ultra dynastic leaders who willingly engaged in negationism of hindu culture, national security etc is not a real option. it merely shows us to be a laughing stock. luckily we finally seem to have an admin which is more into actual work as versus pontificating to the whole fraking world on the ideal size of the goober from one's nose, whilst sipping champagne and saying "oxford onleee yaar" and then happily talking of the liberating aspects of poverty. in short, fix india's national issues, learn what we can from israel & get their support where we can (they have had enough of indian tax money too btw). that's what modi and co are likely doing.

[Sagar G]

Death blow from the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty buffoon, take that joo dirty Hindutwavaadis

Modi’s Overtures To Israel Are Deeply Dangerous (Mani Shankar Aiyar is a Congress MP in the Rajya Sabha)

An election in distant Israel would not normally warrant a column on ndtv.com. But last week's surprise victory of Benjamin Netanyahu for a fourth term as Prime Minister has such sinister implications for our domestic national identity, and our foreign and defence policy, that we must evaluate the outcome for its implications for us.

Compared to India, Israel is a tiny country of some six million people (of whom 1.7 million are Israeli Arabs), as is its neighbour, Palestine, with about 4 million in the West Bank and nearly 2 million in Gaza. But because we were deeply involved, as a member of two key UN committees, with the end of the British mandate in Palestine (which happened in the same year that we secured our Independence), the Israel story came to be closely linked to the India story. In India, the price we had to pay for Independence was Partition. We were, therefore, wary of endorsing the idea of partitioning Palestine to bring the Israeli state into existence. Nehru suggested a "One-State" solution - that the British should leave behind a composite, secular nation comprising both Arabs and Jews who would frame a federal constitution under which one part would have a Jewish majority and the other an Arab majority, but bound together in a federal state that would be jointly and democratically governed by Jew and Arab together.

The Jews said no to this because they wanted their own separate homeland; the Arabs said no because they saw no reason to pay the price of losing their homeland for a genocide committed not by them but by European Christians during the Second World War. Initially, there was a majority in the relevant UN committees which argued that partition would only lead to even more and longer-lasting problems. Eventually, however, the US and the Soviet Union persuaded or pressurized an overwhelming majority of the international community to vote in favour of partition. India was the only non-Arab, non-Muslim member to stand out against partition.

The November 1947 partition of Palestine led to a brief war in April-May 1948 during which the Arab armies were roundly defeated by the US-armed and Western-backed Zionists seeking a separate State of Israel, and the Palestinian Arab population was largely driven like cattle from their villages to become a rootless diaspora. That disaster is known to all Palestinians and Arabs as Al-Naqba ('The Catastrophe').

There have been other wars since, but the present international position favours a "Two-State" solution which guarantees Israel's continued existence but adds that there must also be an independent, sovereign Palestine state in the territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 war on the West Bank of the Jordan river and the Gaza strip in the Sinai peninsula.

In the run-up to last week's election, which Benjamin Netanyahu seemed to be on the verge of losing, he suddenly turned around to assert that he would not allow the Palestinians to have a State of their own, and would continue to encourage Jewish settlements on Palestinian territory to preclude the emergence of an integrated Palestinian State. He also denounced the Arab citizens of Israel, who make up about 15% of Israel's electorate, warning the Jews to come out to vote for him to defeat the Arab fifth column in their midst. That is how, by appealing to the basest fears of the Jewish voter, he suddenly came up from behind.

All this is relevant to us because Israel has emerged as Modi's favourite friend in West Asia in contradistinction to the Arabs, stretching from Oman to Morocco, whom Nehru had cultivated as the Arab bulwark of the Nonaligned Movement, thereby thwarting Pakistan's attempts to play the Islamic card against us. In more practical terms, it is the Arabs, not the Israelis who are hosting seven million Indian expatriate workers who constitute our largest single source of remittances in foreign exchange. India's consistent pro-Arab policy has been a principal cause of the warm welcome our workers have enjoyed. In trade too, Arab destinations like Dubai have emerged as principal outlets for Indian exports. Our stakes in the Arab world are high.

On the other hand, Israel is the largest supplier now of India's defence requirements. The security cordon has drawn us closer and closer over the years to an Israel whose domestic policies are repugnant to much of what we have stood for all these years, and been diametrically the opposite of our own approach to inclusivist nation-building in diversity. Much of the Israeli attitude to its Arab minorities and Arab neighbours has been anathema to generations of Indian, particularly since Gandhiji in 1938 proclaimed, "Palestine belongs to the Arabs as France belongs to the French and England to the English." This principled stand has now been distorted by being viewed through the prism of defence cooperation. More disturbingly, the Israeli attitude to Muslims and Islam reflects Hindu extremist views in India. Both the Israeli Jewish mainstream and the Indian fringe believe in religion-based nationhood, with Zionism sharing many of the characteristics and prejudices of the Hindutva brigade. That is what has led Modi to send his felicitations to Netanyahu in Hebrew, the Israel language, as a special gushing gesture of delight at extreme views having catapulted Netanyahu to his last-minute win.

My mind goes back to the only visit I have made to Palestine - in 1998 to join the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Al-Naqba. I was taken to the home of a Hamas leader, then locked in political battle with Yasser Arafat's party. After he told the amusing story of Arafat having asked him to bring out his cadres for the commemoration, to which the Hamas leader had replied that he could not because Arafat had locked them all up, I more seriously enquired how he could imagine that the Arabs would ever prevail. Pat came his answer, "We are making Palestine in our bedrooms!" He went on to explain that the Arab population of Israel was expanding so much faster than that of the Jews, principally because there was so much net Jewish emigration out of Israel to the glorious West that by the middle of the 21st century, Israel's Arabs would outnumber the Jews. I thought it another joke, but Netanyahu seems to have taken seriously the possibility of the Israeli Arab vote becoming the determining element in Israeli elections. That is a demographic trend that cannot be reversed so long as so many young Jewish citizens of Israel wish to seek their fortunes outside Israel, thus belying the Zionist argument that a Jewish homeland on Palestinian territory is a necessity that justifies any amount of discrimination against its own non-Jewish citizens, and any amount of aggression against its Palestinian neighbours.

Secular India should not be joining Modi in extending felicitations to the fourth-time Israeli Prime Minister, but in expressing our solidarity with Arabs everywhere in the tragedy of Netanyahu that has now overtaken them - a veritable second Al-Naqba.

[Karan M]

the idiot is happy that the Hamas types are outbreeding the israelis. and then he pontificates on how everyone else is communal. seriously, leftism warps the brains of people.
the article is so full of the usual anti Hindu, anti jewish and pro Islamic extremist bile ..its standard for aiyar

[Philip]

That was nice to see the diverse ethnic make-up of Israel in the above posts.I have some relatives of Jewish origin whose ancestors went to France from Jericho in the 1st C AD.V.early migrants who established a small settlement there near the coast.Ironically,that region close to Montpellier,is a hotbed of jihadists right now from N.Africa! Israel today is a heady mix of Jews from all over the world with their own individual traditions all living cheek-by-jowl in such a small space. That is reflected in the number of political parties and their support,large and small as seen in the recent elections.

Regardless of who rules Israel,Indo-Israeli relations seem destined for increased cooperation ,as we have much in common as vibrant democratic states with ancient historical ties. Apart from growing defence and security ties,there is a lot that we can learn from the intensive farming tech used by Israel to "green the desert".

"Every court must have its clown".Mani Sanka Aiyar is the undisputed king of comedy and chief of clowns of the Congress Party. Truly an all-time great whose name will go down in Indian history (along with another min. close to Pandit Nehru,the butt of many a joke,of "ombers,ombers" fame) as the man who won the last election for Mr.Modi with his "chai-wallah" jibe. He belongs to that pre-Partition sentimental gang of ghastlies,who will forever drop their pants,turn and bend to the Pakis at the slightest chance of enjoying some Lahori biryani and break wind with incorrigible diabolic terrorists who want nothing more than the destruction of India.

It is not that Indo-Israeli relations must be underscored with hatred for the Palestinians.We have always supported their legitimate rights and expect whichever Israeli govt. is in power to treat them well and work towards achieving a final peace settlement.In that we wish all sides well.Bibi N has his opposition to a Palestinian state,but now has to cobble together a coalition.A prominent Israeli /Jewish analyst said that he might yet do another about turn as he has to compromise with his coalition partners.
But Mani A has forgotten that sweeping across the entire Middle East and Islamic world is the spectre of ISIS,the Islamist version of the "4th Reich",as it has just been called.True,the Islamists are working day and night in their bedrooms to populate the world with more Muslims to take over the world by stealth,but to what end? The destruction of civilisations as we've seen in Iraq and earlier at Bamiyan? The brutal beheadings of even innocent children? Mani A should take a dose of his own medicine and visit the caliphate of ISIS and break wind with them.It would be most interesting to see whether he returns with his head attached to his neck. But then India would lose its most bizarre and bombastic buffoon!

[Arjun]

Nobody can hold a candle to Philip when it comes to telling it like it is

[A_Gupta]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.648458

Former Singapore Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, who died Monday at age 91, revealed in his autobiography that Israel had helped set up his country’s army.

In his 2000 book “From Third World to First: The Singapore Story,” Lee recalled that he had approached several nations asking for military advice, including India, Egypt and Britain, but it was Israel who responded.

Lee wrote that in November 1965, a group of Israeli soldiers arrived in Singapore under a veil of secrecy. “To disguise their presence, we called them ‘Mexicans.’ They looked swarthy enough,” wrote Lee.

The job of building Singapore’s army was given to Maj. Gen. Rehavam Ze’evi, and the military delegation was headed by then-Col. Yaakov Elazari. Several Israel Defense Forces officers labored over what became known as the Brown Book, dealing with combat doctrine, which was translated into English and sent to the Singaporean government for review. By the time a Singaporean delegation arrived in Israel in 1965, it had already outlined the process by which the IDF would set up the Singaporean army.

[KLNMurthy]

...

when folks like KLNM btw mention that it is india's interest that shias take on sunni extremism (and bypass the fact that the hezbollahs and hamas's of the world are no shrinking violets either) and neglect the fact that the owaisis of india are courting the same folks in the ME..

then no, it is not in India's interest that shiite extremism take off further.
...

You apparently have me confused with someone else. I have no opinion on supporting shias vs sunnis and I didn't express any here. I do speculate aloud on a lot of things though, so it is remotely possible that in one of my far-too-many BRF posts I said something to give that impression.

You are also drawing the wrong conclusion that because I stood up against the attack on A Gupta it means I agree with everything in his substance and style. It is not a logical conclusion.

My thinking is very simplistic: to me, all the wonderfulness of Israel is not worth a rift with one Indian patriot. On one side of the scale is an abstract entity--Israel which,being abstract, cannot and does not care about India. On the other side is a flesh and blood individual with a good brain who cares about India enough to spend his time in doing some very concrete things for India.

I go to bat for the human who cares for India. That's what being a jingo means to me.

[Karan M]

You apparently have me confused with someone else. I have no opinion on supporting shias vs sunnis and I didn't express any here. I do speculate aloud on a lot of things though, so it is remotely possible that in one of my far-too-many BRF posts I said something to give that impression.

It was SVenkat

You are also drawing the wrong conclusion that because I stood up against the attack on A Gupta it means I agree with everything in his substance and style. It is not a logical conclusion.

When you posit a back and forth exchange as an "attack", that itself draws queries about the objectivity of any such assessment & creates confusion about what exactly you meant. Logically, it was his substance/style (lack thereof) that drew the replies. if he was more civil & less confrontational about his subjective opinions, he would receive replies in the same vein.

My thinking is very simplistic: to me, all the wonderfulness of Israel is not worth a rift with one Indian patriot. On one side of the scale is an abstract entity--Israel which,being abstract, cannot and does not care about India. On the other side is a flesh and blood individual with a good brain who cares about India enough to spend his time in doing some very concrete things for India.

This is not abstract, its wishful thinking. Israel's wonderfulness etc is immaterial as is the concept of an "Indian patriot" who cannot compensate for the items Israel (bleddy jews) provide us & do what Israel is doing. So pardon me, but I sort of doubt the objectivity of aforesaid patriot if he keeps harping on bleddy fundoo jews for no clear rhyme or reason apart from the fact that he says they are fundoos so they must be, and fundoos are bad etc etc. And especially when aforesaid patriot promptly dismisses everyone with contrary views as being infestations, dork media and what not. demagoguery has its limits. if he wants to use BRF as a bully pulpit to beat up israel on the pal issue, and nobody replies, it does tend to give the impression that is the prevailing view. now, there is enough stuff on the board to show "not the case". that's about it.

I go to bat for the human who cares for India. That's what being a jingo means to me.

There are many "humans who care for India". The problem is what they think of their India. Some would have us break ties on a whim. Some would have us commit evermore. Some carp on their idee fixe about fundoo jews. Some (and this group I agree with), would maintain ties with objectivity and keep their powder dry.

[svenkat]

Iran is Indias partner in Afghanisthan.Both are against Taliban fundamentalism.Sunni Wahabbis are a threat to us in pak and BD.Israel sees Iran as its primary threat.

For us pakistan is the thorn. The Wahabbi threat is emanating from Barbaria.Israel and US support the Sunni Block including ISIS against Iran.

Israel supports US interference in ME.We want US out of Indian sub-continent.

[Cosmo_R]

^^^Newly converted Xians display this hatred.

[Karan M]

So you have issues with israel and jewish identity being monotheist and fundamentalist (in theory is enough to posit itself as a threat) and at the same time, you are willing to ignore the existence of rampant shiite extremism via Hezbollah, Hamas etc and their blowback effect in India via the likes of the Owaisis who visit these orgs and support them.

Iran for the record has sponsored orgs that
a) call for and implement a death to all infidels policy
b ) has trained and created a vast number of mercenaries/terror groups that today attack israel.. and tomorrow?
c )iran has also mounted terror attacks on indian soil already

point being iran doesn't seem to be turning all peaches and cream and any true partner of india anytime. our relationship with them is based on hard nosed realpolitik and theirs with us, likewise.

also, if wee see some history - the pakistani shiites for the most part were as equally keen as their sunni brethren to attack hindus/india. their recent squabbles with their sunni brethren are their issues.

coming back to iran..

Irans usefulness to us is that its in the ME and is a prime source of energy. Thats about it. We don't really have any shared values with a bunch of mullahs who would as easily declare us apostate as they attack jews. they will mouth platitudes about india being an independent power, periodically news reports (all dodgy) will appear about indo-iran strategic ties most of which are based on speculative claims (india supplying eqpt to xyz iranian armed forces) whereas reality is iran is mostly sourcing from china and russia (again).

India can and should play the great game.. but India's relationship with Iran has significant issues which are not resolved..not least of which is Irans tendency to use the same techniques and methods Pakistan uses against us.

our primary need is energy which we need iran for.
apart from that, some sort of hedging in the ME and keeping them ok with us is a given. after all india can even invite KSAs head to india.

but lets not confuse the sort of nation today's iran is (a stifled theocracy with a tendency to use terror as a means of state policy) with india's values.

[svenkat]

KaranMji,
you are attributing things which I have not said.All I am saying is

1)India and Iran have common interests in Afghanisthan.You have rightly mentioned Iran as an oil supplier.
2)Israel and US support Sunnis vs Iran.Sunnis are a greater threat to us than the less rabid and less numerous fanatics.Sunnis are the majority in Pak and BD.
3)India and Israel have different perceptions about US.

I am repeating myself.

[gakakkad]

@ svenkat, prima facie it might seem that Israel supports sunnis and opposes shias or something of that sort by the fact that support the house of Saud.But reality is a whole lot more complicated. And shias are no saints either.

Quatar funds hamas and surely knows in advance about terror strikes. Yet it is amreeki partner.

Turks.. Remember that flotilla episode? And turkey being eu must have impeccable sickular credentials

Molems loathe the very existence of jews. I does not make sense politically or morally to broadly not ally with Israel .This is not just a Shia sunni issue. Will elaborate more when I have time..