Aero India 2003 - News & Reports

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 14 Feb 2003 16:54

I don't know whether the guys already knew about it but this is what I got ..

Airborne Brahmos Specs

Universal Brahmos Specs

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 14 Feb 2003 18:40

SOME MORE TITBITS

A lot of water has flown down the Kaveri ( call it Cauvery if you want ) since the BR gang troupe visited the AERO INDIA 2003 and had a Mother-Of-All-BR-Meetings in Bangalore. Reams of paper and MBs of computer resources have been used fruitfully to describe each persons observations and of course views.

Here is my humble contribution

MIG 29M2 MRCA
The hallowed pundits of BR have not done justice to the MiG 29M2 or MRCA.

The MiG 29M2 or MRCA did some amazing aerobatics. On the ground it displayed its awesome firepower, something almost akin to the SU-30MKI.

Under the port wing were shown a Kh-35 anti-shipping missile (same as our SS-N-25, Switchblade, or Uran), an R 27 (infer red guided), an R 77 and an R 73. Under the starboard wing were displayed a Kh 31 anti shipping missile, a Kh 59, a R 77 and a R 73. I would not be surprised if this beast lands on INS Gorskhov !!

By the way does anybody remember that MRCA was the original name / designation of the Panavia (BAe) Tornado. It was called as the Multi Role Combat Aircraft

LCA
The LCA was displayed with a plethora of weapons including the usual bombs and rocket pods. The best was to see an R 77 and the Astra AAMs on the LCA. R73 (or is it R 60) AAMs were also shown. No nav / attack pods were shown though the LGBs were prominent.

IAF - Mirage 2000
The Mirage 2000 was shown with a
A Matra R 550 Magic air-to-air missile, under the port outer wing pylon
A Matra R 530D air-to-air missile, under the starboard inner wing pylon
A 500 kg LGB under the fuselage port pylon
A Belouga cluster bomb under the port inner pylon
A ECM / ESM pods under the starboard outer pylon
A ECM / ESM pods one under fuselage starboard pylon

IAF - SU 30MKI
The SU 30MKI was displayed only with the air-to-air missiles.

2 R 27 (radar guided ) air-to-air missiles under the fuselage, between the engines.
1 R 27 (radar guided ) air-to-air missile under each engine.

Under each wing it had
1 R 77
1 R 27 (infra red guided ) air-to-air missile
1 un-identified object, looks like some AAM, I think it is R 77 but I am nor sure
1 R 73 air-to-air missile

Thus it carries 10 missiles + 2 un identifiable objects which could be R 77s

IAF – MiG 29
The aircraft was shown with 2 R 27 and 4 R 73 air-to-air missiles

IAF – MiG 21 BISON
Beside the Russian UV-16-57 and UV-32-57 rocket pods and free fall bombs, the MiG 21 Bison was displayed with the R 73 and the R 77 air-to-air missiles.

IAF - JAGUAR
The Jaguar was displayed with its usual Matra Magic AAMs and rocket pods and a LGB.

IAF - Mi 35
This is one more aircraft, which has not been given due recognition ion the BRF.

The Mi 35, modified by the Israelis, was also displayed in the Republic Day Parade of 2003. I had given a good description of Mi 35 in a new thread on the Republic Day Parade, which was promptly locked by one of the Admin chaps. ( May his soul rest in peace in heaven )

The Mi 35 has a chin mounted 4 barelled gun. It has three pylons below each stub wing. The innermost pylons seemed to be carrying a drop tank. The center pylons had rocket pods. Can somebody identify the pod and the rockets ? Each of the outermost pylons carried two anti-tank missile launchers.

Below the chin, on the port side the Mi 35 carried a pod with a transparent cover.

On the starboard side, it carried an opto electronic pod with three transparent windows.

I am still not sure.
What arecthese two pods ?
Which ATMs are carried ?

To begin with I was badly brushed off by the Israeli technician who was frantically trying to rectify something in the aircraft !!!

An IAF man told me that the pod on the port side was to guide the lased guided anti tank missiles. This means that the Mi 35 is equipped with the Vikhir anti tank missiles. But another IAF person mentioned that the ATMs carried by Mi 35 are the Shtrum ( 9K 114, AT-6, NATO Codename ‘Spiral’).

Beside the radar generally all attack aircraft would have a FLIR (Forward Looking Indra Red) sensor, a TV / video camera with a CCD (Charged Coupled Device), a laser range finder and a laser target designator. The pods on the Mi 35 have 4 “windows”. Can soemebody identify which window is used for which sensor ?

The IAF has ordered Vikhir ATMs for the new Mi 17s procured recently form Russia/Ukraine.

I look forward to the solution of some of the unanswered questions.

I suggest that one learned gentleman, Say Shiv or Jagan, compile all the data for the BR Monitor.

Good Luck
Kersi

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Feb 2003 18:56

Kersiji

Great post - summarising all that we saw in the static display. The only change i would make -

IAF – MiG 21 BISON
Beside the Russian UV-16-57 and UV-32-57 rocket pods and free fall bombs,

It had a KAB-500 TV Guided bomb on the center pylon. This did not seem obvious as the optical head was covered with a protective cap

I am sure there are other learned members who are already working on 'Aero India Special' articles. I am sure they will make use of this info.

Cheers

Jagan

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 14 Feb 2003 19:44

Kersi,

I looked again at the Su-30MKI and found that it seems like a total of 4 R-77s were fitted. Two were all white and two had red noses. Would Shiv and Jagan agree with that assessment ?

Your comments regarding there being a laser guidance pod on the Mi-35 is very significant.

The AT-6 ATGMs are not the most modern things around. It would make sense that if the Vikrs are being bought for the Mi-17V1s that they be also fitted to the Mi-35s.

You were told that that the Vikrs are coming ?

Thanks for everything.

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 14 Feb 2003 19:50

Sanjay, yes I can also confirm about the R-77s and their nose caps.

Another thing that is not being given enough weight here is the performance of the Dhruv, both the jeep-lifiting Army version and the maneuvering Air Force version.

The AF one in particular looked amazing with its steep angled climbs and dives, plus the sideways and backward flying. Especially since they havent been in service too long and the pilots must have less time in them than pilots of other types of choppers.

Also has someone mentioned the An-74 here? and the Akash Gnaga team?

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 14 Feb 2003 20:05

another thing, how do you watermark a whole bunch of JPGs at once? Is there a program that does it? Or how do I insert text into each photo, and do it quickly for 90+ pics?

My AI pics are still lying here...

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 14 Feb 2003 20:18

Originally posted by Aditya Mandrekar:
another thing, how do you watermark a whole bunch of JPGs at once? Is there a program that does it? Or how do I insert text into each photo, and do it quickly for 90+ pics?

My AI pics are still lying here...

There are some batch processing softwares available on the net. Do a search for Arles Image processor , that will work

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2003 21:54

Originally posted by Sanjay:
Kersi,

I looked again at the Su-30MKI and found that it seems like a total of 4 R-77s were fitted. Two were all white and two had red noses.

Absolutely - what puzzle me wa sthe 2 red noses and 2 white. I wanted to ask at a Rusisan stall - but there was only a cute chick who said that she didn't deal with that sort of stuff.

pics as on pg 1

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03sur77.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03mki.jpg

and these

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/aisumis1.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/aisumis2.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/aisumis3.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/aisumis4.jpg

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 15 Feb 2003 03:26

Originally posted by Himanshu Chauhan:
I don't know whether the guys already knew about it but this is what I got ..

Airborne Brahmos Specs

Universal Brahmos Specs

One get one of the key BROHMOS specification from these link that was earlier speculated. The weight of the air launched version: it is 2,500 Kg. Now one can figure out why MKI carry so many of them {SU-MKI Maximum External Stores Load: 8000 kg}. Enough for 3 BRAHMOS and few AA missiles.

As Dr.Shiv earlier indicated:
Proposed Brahmos mounts:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03brahmos1.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03brahmos2.jpg

Interestingly that also means that Mig-29 can carry one Brahmos, while Jaguar can not carry any:( because Jaguar can carry only one Brhamos & that would have ground clearence problem mounting it on the centerline paylon. The wing mount would be OK but then it cannot carry weight of two them.

Also the key spec that is not mentioned on these pdf pages is the mass of the universal Brahmos version.

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 15 Feb 2003 03:53

Posted by Shiv:

Absolutely - what puzzle me wa sthe 2 red noses and 2 white. I wanted to ask at a Rusisan stall - but there was only a cute chick who said that she didn't deal with that sort of stuff.

Under Fuselage: R-27 Radar guided white nose(Alamo) 3 visible

Under wing starting from left (wing tip)

Small practice round ?
AA-11 Archer(IR guided) red nose
Alamo R-27 (IR guided) red nose
R-77 white nose (Amraamski)

12 missile points total

vverma · Post by **vverma** » 15 Feb 2003 05:49

Any reason why a Mig-25/31 is shown carrying the Brahmos? It is probably being configured for Russian Mig-31s but who else operates 25/31 who might be interested?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Feb 2003 06:02

Originally posted by vverma:
Any reason why a Mig-25/31 is shown carrying the Brahmos?

Hey that's supposed to be a Su-30.

Meanwhile - as an addendum to Kersi's Mi 35 post, another picture:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03mi35.jpg

The Russian "philosophy" seems to be to make flat-nosed bombs with ring like aerodynamic surfaces at the back.

I wonder why?

Here is a picture of a T 72 tank simulator.

I sincerely regret not including, in the photo the hyraulic legs that simulate movement of the tank and taking only the inside of the "tank" in my excitement. Again - the people who were demonstrating it were (probably understandably) more interested in demonstrating it to Army people.

What Indian company was this - anyone recall?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03tanksim.jpg

John · Post by **John** » 15 Feb 2003 06:04

Hey that's supposed to be a Su-30.

Shiv he is referring to pdf file it shows a Mig-31 carrying a brahmos along with Su-27, Tu-142, Mig-29. BTW Only russia operates Mig-31 but it has a radar capable enough of fully exploiting Brahmos's range.

Umrao · Post by **Umrao** » 15 Feb 2003 06:05

Originally posted by shiv:

Originally posted by vverma:
Any reason why a Mig-25/31 is shown carrying the Brahmos?
Hey that's supposed to be a Su-30.

Meanwhile - as an addendum to Kersi's Mi 35 post, another picture:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/ai03mi35.jpg

The Russian "philosophy" seems to be to make flat-nosed bombs with ring like aerodynamic surfaces at the back.

I wonder why?

so that they drop ever so gently on the waiting Pukis.

Note the flat surface in conjunction with tail to offer maximum retardation ( to drop on the retards you need that)

chaitanya · Post by **chaitanya** » 17 Feb 2003 21:06

Could anyone please give a comparision of our indigenous WLR to the American Cobra?

saint · Post by **saint** » 18 Feb 2003 03:41

what aircraft model is the first one from left?

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030206/capt.1044518538.india_air_show_ban101.jpg

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 18 Feb 2003 03:52

what aircraft model is the first one from left?

Looks like the Rafale.

saint · Post by **saint** » 18 Feb 2003 04:46

Originally posted by rahul r:

what aircraft model is the first one from left?
Looks like the Rafale.

It does not look like this rafale

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/rafale-m-colb.jpg

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 18 Feb 2003 04:50

Shiv wrote

Absolutely - what puzzle me wa sthe 2 red noses and 2 white. I wanted to ask at a Rusisan stall - but there was only a cute chick who said that she didn't deal with that sort of stuff.

IR v/s SARH ? Russians typically deploy AAMs with one of each type...

Nandan D · Post by **Nandan D** » 18 Feb 2003 05:01

SAi wrote:

It does not look like this rafale

Sai,it is.. I think someone else earlier mentioned that "it looks like the Rafale has conformal fuel tanks "(or whatever you cacall them when they are overwing)..now if you keep that in mind and then look again, the planes look similar, especially where the wing blends with the fuselage....

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Feb 2003 21:59

Aero India has ended.

Decision on AJTs will be taken in 2005 - next Aero India.

George J · Post by **George J** » 18 Feb 2003 22:06

Originally posted by Niranjan Rao:
Aero India has ended.

Decision on AJTs will be taken in 2005 - next Aero India.

Yes, as someone i know once said..."Der aye doorust aye."

saint · Post by **saint** » 18 Feb 2003 22:10

Hawk factory would be shutdown if indian order should not be in the offing... perhaps thats what india wants.. and slowing moving those shut services and part companies/sectors to india, at a much cheaper agreement.

. nice move!

By then, our own ajt would be ready, along with LCA.

time-wise!

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 18 Feb 2003 22:34

Thats the Rafale akright, its the naval F2 version with CFTs (I asked abt the version, and there is an arrestor hook underneath). They prolly want t opitch it to the IN. If we get it hopefully it will come with the AMSAR.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Feb 2003 22:55

Originally posted by George J:

Originally posted by Niranjan Rao:
Aero India has ended.

Decision on AJTs will be taken in 2005 - next Aero India.
Yes, as someone i know once said..."Der aye doorust aye."

Apples and oranges. Nothing MKIistic about the Hawks, although I wish there was.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Feb 2003 16:12

Will some nobel soul identify the weapons on/near the static exhibits of LCA, Jaguar and MiG 29M2 ? Ima particulary interested in the Russioan bombs.

I would alo like to know the exact name and other details of two ECM/ESM pods on the IAF Mirage 2000.

I repeat my earlier request that all the data collected by the BRites should be complied into a BR Monitor article

Kersi

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Feb 2003 20:49

http://www.the-week.com/23feb23/events9.htm

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 19 Feb 2003 20:55

Kersi,

The TWo pods on the Mirage 2000-one was the Remora EW/ECM pod(the one with the maroon prong kinda tip) ; the other(the one with the blue window on it) was the Thomson CSF Atlis2 Laser Designation Pod.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 19 Feb 2003 21:01

Kersi, the starboard outer pylon ECM pod is the Remora. The other i guess is the lightning, let me try and post the closeup pic i took.

------
added later: Ah, Nitin had already beat me to the post. and I guessed the otehr ECM pod wrong too!

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Feb 2003 21:01

Originally posted by shiv:
http://www.the-week.com/23feb23/events9.htm

Good summary of great work being done by DRDO and it's agencies. Patience pays.

JCage · Post by **JCage** » 19 Feb 2003 21:23

Some wrong facts in the otherwise decent week article.

The rajendra has been accepted by the services(2001).And meets the criteria.
The problems were with the Akash.
The missile is definitely *not* beset with problems.The chaps-both services ,developers and production agency were upbeat about it.In particular the last two tests have been flawless.
Note what Dr Aatre says-about the Akash as the "problem" that held up the system(till the successful tests) not the Rajendra or other components of the system.As usual the Journo bhai has misread a bit.

As regards the CAR-now that its been said out loud-yes,it was deployed for three months in Op Parakram and did well.The IAF used and was pleased but they want further improvements(which is normal and good).These are not massive improvements or even change in performance.In those respects the CAR has acquitted itself well.

The WLR came about because rajendra was finally certified!If the basic isnt good enough,you cannot develop a variant with confidence.
Also i might add,the WLR's primary design was done by LRDE with BEL assisting- unlike the way the article says.
Nothing taken from the BEL folks-they proved their status as a high tech production house-and they have developed many items on their own and are codeveloping others.

As regards ALH and the ACM's comments about Turbomeca's Shakti...the Army Aviation chaps and IAF guys noted that the present engine is good enough for their requirements and weight considerations.However with weaponisation proceeding,the allup weight will definitely increase,hence at that stage a more powerful engine would be required-so we are proceeding well in time.The present one is good enough for a troop hauler,medevac,what have you.

Also the import content in the Arjun wil definitely come down if some trials-dont ask me what now-are successful.

However,Shri Prasannan -wrong inferences aside-is very much on the dot about the new found bonhomie between the services and the DRDO/BEL combine.Very surprising to those of us who have followed the travails of indigenous R&D over the years!

I got an earful

*when i played a Devils advocate and suggested that quality control by HAL may be responsible for MiG crashes etc.
*The earful translated into an overview of how BRD's and the IAF maintain the MiGfleet and HAL is not culpable as many allege(and there i was playing the "opposite side" unlike on the forum).Furthermore the ToI ran an article on the usual russian bakwaas that day,p1ssing off our boys in blue.Not a nice day for the ToI souls who ventured to ask questions i'm sure.
Know whats funny,by the last day,MiGMAPO-s head honcho was eating his own words and engaging in Neta-speak."I have been misquoted by the media",said he. Yeah right.

Similarly AAC people were happy about the Nag's specs!

Funny world-all this bonhomie- for one used to Service-R&D sniping.

Regards,
Nitin

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Feb 2003 21:42

Originally posted by bansal:

Originally posted by shiv:
http://www.the-week.com/23feb23/events9.htm
Good summary of great work being done by DRDO and it's agencies. Patience pays.

We should start seeing the results of efforts put in over the years. It takes time for such systems to mature and we should start seeing more than acceptable results. We should expect some amount of failure, in fact it is desirable in some areas - such as research.

Rudra · Post by **Rudra** » 19 Feb 2003 22:20

BEL is scouting for a foreign partner to start a embedded sw JV. the existing example is BAE-HAL
http://www.baehal.com/

that way they can act outside GoI rules and do
whats necessary to get things done.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Feb 2003 23:01

I think part of the reason for the new-found bonhomie between the armed forces and DRDO is the vulnerable position that the forces found themselves in due to the post-Pokharan sanctions. The troubles they've had getting spare parts subsequent to the break-up of the Soviet Union must also have helped change mindsets. Anyway, 'Der Aayad Durust Aayad'.

Nitin:

Is the WLR ready for user trials? What's the schedule for trials, acceptance, and induction?

Thanks

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 19 Feb 2003 23:09

Originally posted by Rudra Singha:

http://www.baehal.com/

Try pronouncing BAEHAL in Hindi. I hope it doesn't go that way

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Feb 2003 23:11

We need to put together a page on Russain ordnance especially that in IAF inventory. Info is very sparse.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 20 Feb 2003 00:48

Originally posted by ramana:
We need to put together a page on Russain ordnance especially that in IAF inventory. Info is very sparse.

More on the Air to Ground weaponry. We have got the Air to Air covered quite well.

harrys been doing a good job on one of the threads on AFM on the Russian A2G toys.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2003 01:07

Yes Jagan I ment A2G. Could you post a link to harry's info?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » 20 Feb 2003 02:20

Are you talking about Aero india or in general?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Feb 2003 07:35

Only the A2G of Russian origin. Thanks, ramana
Also maybe should put up a page on that.