Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 1 Feb 2015

[Virendra]

Pathan leader of PPP - Akhwanzada (Akhunzada) Chattan showing some candor. A glimpse of Hassan Nisari boldness.

[member_29040]

Hello All;
This is in response to queries about how pakistan manages its military at paltry budget of 7 billion $.
Rising miltary expenditure in sinking pakistan economy can create lot of resentment towards army.
So, they have developed numerous methods to hoodwing public about real cost of Pakistan economy.
Some of this methods are
1) Pensions of army personnels are not included in defence budget. Instead they come from civilian budget.
2) Aprt from declared budget pakistani budget contains a huge budget under head of contingency fund whic ultimetaly gets
utilised by the army at the end of the year.
3) Pakistan army has many commercial concerns ranging from fertiliser, cement to backery products. This commercial entities
enjoy preferencial governement treatment, favourable policies and in many case monopolised market. This unfair advantages
helps this concers to earn huge profits at cost of the economy and consumers. e.g. to help National Logistic corporation (Owned by military)
Pakistan railway's freight business is destroyed. NLC enjoys monopoly for transporting American goods in and out of Afghanistan.
4) Aids from 3.5 coutries is used to augment budget. 3.5 supplies their surplus weapons to pakistan.
5) Army has aquired huge land for cantonments. Surplus lands are being commercially developed to earn money. Today Pakistan army
is biggest real estate developer in Pakistan.
6) Most of the military aquisition cost are not included in defence budget. They are financed by debt and EMI is paid by government under civilian head.

Salary of Pakistani soldiers are quite low compared to India. But they compensate them in other forms:
1) Pakistan army aquires huge tracts of goverment land in major cities at throwaway prices and gives the plots to retired
soldiers according to their seniority. The price of this allotment is kept very low e.g 5 lakh per plot while the soldies
sells this plot at price of 50 lakhs compensating him for his low salary.
2) Governement gives agriculture land to retired army personnel at the officer ranks. Case in point: High ranking general can get upto 400 acres of agriculture land under different heads.
3) The army wield huge political clout. This can be observed from the fact that most of senior goverment officers, be it in
foreign ministry, irrigation, health or any other ministry are retired army officers. They can accumulate vast wealth using this posts.

For further information you can read Miliraty Inc. by Ayesha Siddiqa or http://www.tehelka.com/it-isnt-easy-to- ... -spending/

[KLNMurthy]

If literacy in India rises and literacy in the Islamic Republic of Shitistan remains stagnant, the average literacy of the "whole region" will still rise. The same holds true for economy. In other words Pakistan needs to do nothing - they will simply bask in reflected glory.

Exactly!! Because they are salivating at the moolah currently India is saving up., expecting just like their forefathers they will eventually loot it all!! So!! DEFENSE IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT!

Here's my thought--paki forefathers were able to colonize and loot India less because of a failure to have sufficient defense in the military sense and more due to a failure of imagination and flawed intellect on the part of India. I think we still are very vulnerable on that front and will continue to be, unless we pay particular attention to overcoming those flaws.

Our enemies can be our best teachers. A lot of al-Beruni's criticism of yindoos still holds true, in my opinion.

[Peregrine]

Highel than the Himalayas Deepel than Pacific Fliend plosecuting Muslims

Chinese court jails Muslim for 6 years for growing beard, wife gets 2 years for wearing veil

BEIJING: A court in China’s mainly Muslim Xinjiang region has sentenced a man to six years in prison for “provoking trouble” and growing a beard, a practice discouraged by local authorities, a newspaper reported Sunday.

Cheers

[pankajs]

A Conversation with Gen. Khalid Kidwai - 2015 Carnegie International Nuclear Policy Conference (Just watch his initial presentation if you are short of time)

[svinayak]

It could be also a bit of both, or something in between, or a series of somethings. A significant military victory by India in an era when US keeps failing militarily would shift India from potential threat to threat.

Interesting, if off topic speculation. My personal guess is that the US and India are likely to come closer. I don't know why I am saying this, but it's just a hunch.

Pakistan believed that the US was an "ally" in the way NATO allies stick together. Pakistanis possibly believed that the US would jump up and defend them directly. But the US actually hedged its bets when it came to Pakistan India conflicts.

In contrast - in Korea the US jumped in with alacrity to support the South against communism. In Vietnam the US jumped in to take the place of the French to fight communism again. Pakistanis probably tried to pass India off as Soviet bloc and hence communist, but for some karmic reason that did not work. Other than assholes like Yeager deputed to Shitistan and the USS Enterprise dramabaazi the US did not jump in to help Pakistan as it did even in later years - to protect Kuwait.

Watch this to understand what is the future

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNZCw0BXKyE

Watch the last 5 questions at the end.
The TSP guy tries to be as rational as possible in his logic. Uncle and UK folks have been talking to TSP for a long time and see why they have to take the help of India in dealing with the questions of Pak

[vishvak]

..
..they are salivating at the moolah currently India is saving up., expecting just like their forefathers they will eventually loot it all!! So!! DEFENSE IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT!

Here's my thought--paki forefathers were able to colonize and loot India less because of a failure to have sufficient defense in the military sense and more due to a failure of imagination and flawed intellect on the part of India. I think we still are very vulnerable on that front and will continue to be, unless we pay particular attention to overcoming those flaws.

Our enemies can be our best teachers. A lot of al-Beruni's criticism of yindoos still holds true, in my opinion.[/quote]
Fact is, there have been foreign powers not willing to see Hindu powers rise. Be it 3rd battle of Panipat (Abdali from Afghanistan invited for jihad from within) or divide and rule of British (Colonials) or liberation war of Bangladesh (USA), or Arabs/Europeans who wanted monopoly of the sea trade. There will always be someone willing to throw doles at Pakistanis - even by periodic exception to its own rules (sanctions regime) - every time Pakistani are given some elbow room.

[ramana]

SS, Is it possible to renege on KSA commitments Bad Sharif will create border problems with India?

[Rudradev]

^^ the convenient "India Valve" that they had for the last ten years-- shell villages, behead soldiers, face no consequences-- is not so "safe" a valve anymore. The hammering they received from BSF should make that clear. The Saudis are not Americans, they know the Pakis and their games very well. If TSPA tries something against India to get out of helping the Saudis and it backfires big time, Saudis will not be in any hurry to help them out.

All this will give Bad Sharif some pause before considering any shenanigans.

[ramana]

Parkalaam as Kamraj used to say.

I think Bad Sharif will try to avoid ground troops in KSA to prevent Shia-Sunni fights inside TSP. Even Zia did that.
And might have back channel with GOI to heat up the border to avoid Yemen deployment in serious numbers.

In the last go around Yemenis inflicted quite a few casualties on Egypt. Some one can look up wiki or google for that.

[Kashi]

And might have back channel with GOI to heat up the border to avoid Yemen deployment in serious numbers.

I think Saudis will see through that quite clearly. Moreover, GoI will be more than happy to inform the Saudis as to what exactly happened.

However, Pakis will try and heat up the border, provoking a disproportionate response from us and then try and wiggle out.

[member_22539]

I don't have any more information than what was clearly stated by the spokesman and which I tried repeatedly to spell out to you. The particular identity of the paki guest at Indian Embassy is irrelevant to what I am attempting to get across. It is all just protocol only, as per MEA.

Now you are indulging in the same intellectual laziness you accuse of in others. I made a conjecture (yes a lazy one) and you jumped at my throat, but when someone asks of actual proof for your assertions, you call it irrelevant? If your going to sit on a high horse and preach to people, you better be able to back that up with some substance. It is not for you to dictate what is relevant or not, otherwise you will reek of hypocrisy.

The statement put out by the MEA could have meant anyone, since he did not SPECIFY who he was referring to. Now if you are going to say it was Paki, then you better fish out the name of that paki and when and what he was attending, to lead to a reciprocal visit of the same sort by no less than a MOS.

For future reference, people are more likely to listen to you if you are less aggressive/preachy towards them.

[A_Gupta]

^^^ The event for which India MEA would have to reciprocate would be a celebration of the Indian Republic Day at the Indian Embassy in Islamabad.

While there are no names or captions, here is the photo gallery of the dinner hosted January 26, 2015.
http://india.org.pk/event_detail.php?cid=&id=15

PS:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 033440.ece

The MEA also said the decision on who is nominated is based on “contextual considerations” and “reciprocity” of who attended the Indian Republic Day function in Islamabad. This year the event on January 26 held by the Indian High Commission was attended by Lt. Gen. (Retd.) Abdul Qadir Baloch, a retired Army General, who is now the Federal Minister for States and Frontier Region.

PPS: V.K Singh is a Minister of State and is thus a "junior" minister. There are 3 ranks of ministers in the Indian Cabinet, and V.K. Singh is a second rank minister. Pakistan has 2 ranks of central ministers - Federal Ministers and Ministers of State. Thus Pakistan sent a rank 1 minister to India's Republic Day Celebration in Islamabad; India sent a rank 2 minister to Pakistan's Pakistan Day celebration in New Delhi.

The 3 ranks of Indian central ministers are (via Wiki):
1. Cabinet Minister: member of cabinet; leads a ministry
2. Minister of State (Independent Charges): junior minister not reporting to a cabinet minister
3. Minister of State (MoS): junior minister reporting to a cabinet minister, usually tasked with a specific responsibility in that ministry

[Anujan]

The Saudi armed forces are rag tag. I know but don't ask me how. This is an open secret anyway. They are completely incapable and incompetent. They are neither capable of bravery, nor planning nor handling equipment (leave alone complex pieces of equipment). They have no experience of a war. They were never involved in Op Desert Storm though Lt. Gen Khalid bin Sultan was appointed ceremonially as the commander of the Arab forces and did his best to mess up. If the US had not intervened through Op. Desert Shield, Iraq would have swallowed KSA in no time in c. 1989, after Kuwait.

OT but there is a reason why the armies of Arab monarchies are rag-tag. They are purposely kept that way with the top ranks stuffed with uncles and cousins. Else some jernail might go Paki and take over. It is easier for Arab countries to buy the loyalty of countries like Al-Bakistan and use their armies rather than actually create a professional army (which is an invitation for coup). On the other hand armies of countries which already have conducted a coup are well funded and professional. Saudis had princes while Saddam had generals. An Iraq-Saudi war would have been a trouncing.

[member_22539]

^There you go. This is how one can give information and correct others in a respectful manner. I stand corrected, it was mere a reciprocal diplomatic nicety after all. I am happy to see this, as I am not a fan of "American hand forcing India" theory. It just seemed like an awful coincidence, but the fact is that I was looking at an incomplete picture.

Thanks for the info Mr. Gupta.

[member_22539]

The Saudi armed forces are rag tag. I know but don't ask me how. This is an open secret anyway. They are completely incapable and incompetent. They are neither capable of bravery, nor planning nor handling equipment (leave alone complex pieces of equipment). They have no experience of a war. They were never involved in Op Desert Storm though Lt. Gen Khalid bin Sultan was appointed ceremonially as the commander of the Arab forces and did his best to mess up. If the US had not intervened through Op. Desert Shield, Iraq would have swallowed KSA in no time in c. 1989, after Kuwait.

OT but there is a reason why the armies of Arab monarchies are rag-tag. They are purposely kept that way with the top ranks stuffed with uncles and cousins. Else some jernail might go Paki and take over. It is easier for Arab countries to buy the loyalty of countries like Al-Bakistan and use their armies rather than actually create a professional army (which is an invitation for coup).

The above is quite true, but the fact is that there is a significant cultural element that stymies professionalism as well. The whole H&D obsession and the resultant fear of failure and consequent failure to learn (one cannot learn without failing) is there. Also, the jealous hogging of knowledge by the officers from each other and more so with regard to the soldiers underneath them. This is because the knowledge makes that particular solider valuable and the more scarce the knowledge, the more valuable he is deemed to be.

All this had been detailed in a report by a American officer who had served extensively with armies in the middle east.

Why Arabs Lose Wars
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

[shiv]

Why Arabs Lose Wars
http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

While this is an old one that has been posted here, read and re read on BRF for over a decade - I must admit I thought it was entertaining at first - combined with my reading of Raphael Patai's book "The Arab Mind"

But more recently my mind has been made to ask different questions after reading Edward Said's "Orientalism". This article and Patai's book are both just two works that continue the tradition of utter western contempt for the Orient in general and the Arabs in particular. As long as the books poke fun at Islamism and Islamist idiocy they strike a resonant chord in my heart. But beyond a point the material seeks to show the "other" as a complete idiot who simply cannot have the intellectual and cultural prowess of the European - especially the Anglo-American. The West in general has succeeded in angering Arabs but has failed in "controlling" them They have been quite content to turn Arab anger at powers that are anti-West even as they laugh and mock at Arab stupidity. Pakistan's subservience to the Arabs has worked against us as has the western need to defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan.

In the end - if the Arabs turn around and make life difficult for the west - I will sit back and cheer as loudly as I did when I first read that article linked above.

[shiv]

Watch this to understand what is the future

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNZCw0BXKyE

Watch the last 5 questions at the end.
The TSP guy tries to be as rational as possible in his logic. Uncle and UK folks have been talking to TSP for a long time and see why they have to take the help of India in dealing with the questions of Pak

Aiyoooo svinayakavare! You want me to watch 1 hour and 13 minutes to locate "Last 5 questions". Please indicate an approximate time from which I can start watching - 1 hour 13 minutes is too long to watch another Paki speaking

[member_22539]

The western contempt for everything non-western is something we have to content with when reading analyses made by them. That said, much of what he says seems to be true (happy to be corrected). I have always wondered at the existence of Israel in the midst of seemingly insurmountable demographic odds in the neighborhood. While only part of it is from the military incompetence of its opponents, the systemic and endemic nature of arab military incompetence makes one wonder if it is just by design.

[shiv]

A Conversation with Gen. Khalid Kidwai - 2015 Carnegie International Nuclear Policy Conference (Just watch his initial presentation if you are short of time)

I managed to go though 9 minutes of that and gave up.

Listening to one more Paki - and army/RAPE at that simply does not give me any new insights whatsoever. This is a rehash of same old stuff that Americans have been happy to hear - "Two equal South Asian nations"

There is no equality and talking as if there is equality suits Pakis and Americans could not tell either way. India is getting too big for Shitistan.

I urge Pakis to stop talking and to start nuking before it is too late. It is after all the nukes that they claim create "equality". But it ain't working. They need to use those nukes rather than wagging tongues in Washington using the fuzzy imprecise language that American like to hear.

9 minutes wasted.

[shiv]

The western contempt for everything non-western is something we have to content with when reading analyses made by them. That said, much of what he says seems to be true

We risk going seriously off topic. I am certain the author's observations must be accurate - or at least we could start off by assuming that they are. But the issue is as follows:

The article falls into Edward Said's criticism of Orientalism in that the indivudal author's experiences with a restricted group of Arabs is generalized into the idea that all Arabs are that way. All Arabs lose all wars because they are as the authors personal observations detail. Another off topic example of "Oriental scholarship" is a translation of Manu's words and the idea that lead should be poured into the ears of those non brahmins who listen to the Veda has been extrapolated by the same "academic methodology" of Orientalism to suggest that all forward caste Hindus pour lead into the ears of all those whom they call lower caste iof the happen to hear the Vedas. I am surprised to find zero accounts of people who have seen, heard of or experienced lead being poured into ears.

[SSridhar]

They are purposely kept that way with the top ranks stuffed with uncles and cousins.

True, but there is also total incompetence overall. Each reinforces the other.

[member_22539]

The western contempt for everything non-western is something we have to content with when reading analyses made by them. That said, much of what he says seems to be true

We risk going seriously off topic. I am certain the author's observations must be accurate - or at least we could start off by assuming that they are. But the issue is as follows:

The article falls into Edward Said's criticism of Orientalism in that the indivudal author's experiences with a restricted group of Arabs is generalized into the idea that all Arabs are that way. All Arabs lose all wars because they are as the authors personal observations detail. Another off topic example of "Oriental scholarship" is a translation of Manu's words and the idea that lead should be poured into the ears of those non brahmins who listen to the Veda has been extrapolated by the same "academic methodology" of Orientalism to suggest that all forward caste Hindus pour lead into the ears of all those whom they call lower caste iof the happen to hear the Vedas. I am surprised to find zero accounts of people who have seen, heard of or experienced lead being poured into ears.

So true. But in spite of how they generalize on Indians, it is funny to see them indulge in intellectual contortions to justify the "not all muslims are the same" tripe and venture to create the mythical moderate muslim. So, I guess western generalization does have its exceptions. Last on this from me on this thread.

[shiv]

They are purposely kept that way with the top ranks stuffed with uncles and cousins.

Don't know if others feel this way but to me this image shows supercilious contempt from the Saudis who are looking sideways - as if distracted from their main interest while the servile Pakistani army officer is bowed down and gesticulating wildly trying to explain something to his lord and master.

[SSridhar]

Is it possible to renege on KSA commitments Bad Sharif will create border problems with India?

ramana, I am not sure if Pakistan wants to de-commit from KSA. Obviously, KSA, in spite of being in a tight spot now, still holds a lot of levers wrt Pakistan and Pakistan would not like to invite their wrath. I think the Establishment is still gaming the domestic and geopolitical fall-outs of TSPA's involvement in Yemen. Saner voices (by Paki standards) have been asking Pakistan to stay clear. But, the hardline Sunni elements may urge participation so as to 'solve' the local Shi'a problem too.

As for diversionary tactic by attacking India, I cannot visualize that happening for two reasons. One, the initial 'probing' by TSPA concluded that the Modi government meant what they said of disproportionate response and that this policy would not change for the next five years at least. Two, as US gives way to China in Af-Pak, Pakistan is also mindful of the latter who also does not want any clashes between the two countries as the Afghan situation reaches a critical stage.

[shiv]

What I find interesting is that Pakistan has (according to various sources quoted on here on and off) 2/3rd of its troops committed to the Indian border and 1/3 to the Northwest. I am not sure about this - since I have heard the figure of 100,000 in the NW and even if 400,000 (2/3ds) face India they still have 200,000 to play with. It would not be difficult for them to send 10,000 to help their Saudi masters.

Compare the size and strength of the Paki armed force with Al Qaeda, Taliban and ISIS and we can understand the meaning of power.

[Anujan]

I am waiting for an Oped in Paki newspapers that if Cashmere issue is resolved then Pakistan army will be free to help Saudis and bring peace to the middle east.

[schinnas]

Given that Puki economy is in doldrums, and Unkil's aid often comes with strings attached and from time to time with some public humiliation (due to that being questioned in press, congress, etc.), they need KSA fuel droppings to keep their gas stations full and Army and government machinery operating without fuel shortage.

In addition, Pukis will use this to buy arms with KSA money and pay for large part of Army's salary with the moolah KSA is sure to give. While a few billion dollars make a HUGE difference to Pukis in the current state of their economy, it is minor adjustment for KSA even with the oil price falling down.

Pukis are beggers and they cannot be choosers. That said, I would not put it beneath the Pukis to stir some trouble in their eastern border with India to drive a hard bargain with KSA.

[Yogi_G]

The honeymoon actually begins now for Pakistan and will last for another 5-10 years. This is 1979-1989 period redux for Pakistan.

The long awaited hot war between proxies of Iran and SA has actually begun now. Not sure why Unkil wanted this triggered off now. To cut Ruskie wings? Not sure. Not hike up oil prices again? Not sure. But it chose to do so for some reason.

SA needs Pakis more than ever now. Saudis are finally using the Paki option after a long time now. I expect the PA to be flush with funds and goodies and many a body bags from Yemen. The Shia Vs Sunni question will be settled to some extent now with Iran being shown its place by the Arabs. The final death warrant for the Shias in Pakistan has been signed. The Pakistani official tilt towards Sunnism is around the corner and the "purer than thou" game just got deeper.

[Peregrine]

IMF disburses $500mn loan tranche to Pakistan
Cheers

[kmkraoind]

I think TSPA-KSA will device a new way, where they will send retried, off-duty soldiers and rag-tag terrorists on behalf of Pakis, now Pakistan as a state can claim it has no direct role. Even 10-20K numbers will take care of initial battle needs.
TSPA - will send boots to KSA to fight a war.
KSA - gets cannon fodder or boots to fight a war behalf of them.

The situation may goes awry"
- if it pisses of Iran and stocking Baluchistan fires (I with India to supply ghee to those fires).
- If Shia forces (Iraq and Iran) sends its men covertly, then situation will be bloody and there will looses on both sides and w War prolongs more, then pressure on PA will start to accept some human looses and in providing more cannon fodder to battle.

One thing is sure, Pakiss have to pick a side, there will be no status quo or good-bad armed men game.

[shiv]

I am waiting for an Oped in Paki newspapers that if Cashmere issue is resolved then Pakistan army will be free to help Saudis and bring peace to the middle east.

This is pretty much the same as what that Jernail Khali Kidwai was whining about.

[menon s]

Last time Egypt under nasser sent troops to Yemen Civil war. 10k of the 40k who went there came in body bags. Its dangerous teritorry, to go in if you have no idea about the terrain.

[Aditya_V]

But looks like with Pakis getting DF-21, F-16 squdron plus 1.5 Billion single cash gift, apart from other US and GCC gifts looks like Pakis are aldready committed.

Especiallly DF-21 they have been wanting since 99 after Ghauri failed. Pakis would had to give some major confession for US, Saudis to persuade China on this. Apart from H&D and threat to India, Pakis can blackmail GCC with this range. SO they definately are committed to something big.

[schinnas]

Last time Egypt under nasser sent troops to Yemen Civil war. 10k of the 40k who went there came in body bags. Its dangerous teritorry, to go in if you have no idea about the terrain.

When was the last time Puki jernails cared about their foot soldiers? They would likely think that more the body bags they can go with a bigger bowl and get all their wishlist fulfilled. Tactically and in the short term, this will rejuvenate their sagging economy and restore operational readiness to most of their army and airforce. They would even go for some big ticket items.

However just like all their tactically brilliant and strategically stupid moves, this will create further unrest and destabilize STFUP. A lot depends on reaction of Shias in Pukiland. So far they are less violent than their Sunni brethren (possibly because of lack of strong leaders who could lead them to that path and due to lack of material cross border support). What Iran is doing is woefully inadequate.

[vishvak]

Messages on this page - from IMF tranches and hard cash from Soudis to throwing foot soldiers at shias - much light is thrown at Pakistan.

[chetak]

A Conversation with Gen. Khalid Kidwai - 2015 Carnegie International Nuclear Policy Conference (Just watch his initial presentation if you are short of time)

I managed to go though 9 minutes of that and gave up.

Listening to one more Paki - and army/RAPE at that simply does not give me any new insights whatsoever. This is a rehash of same old stuff that Americans have been happy to hear - "Two equal South Asian nations"

There is no equality and talking as if there is equality suits Pakis and Americans could not tell either way. India is getting too big for Shitistan.

I urge Pakis to stop talking and to start nuking before it is too late. It is after all the nukes that they claim create "equality". But it ain't working. They need to use those nukes rather than wagging tongues in Washington using the fuzzy imprecise language that American like to hear.

9 minutes wasted.

same old, same old.

Cold start has rattled them very deeply and fundamentally in a way that threatens their very existence and engulfs all their waking hours.

First strike, second strike, no strike, they will not survive.

[shiv]

same old, same old.

Cold start has rattled them very deeply and fundamentally in a way that threatens their very existence and engulfs all their waking hours.

First strike, second strike, no strike, they will not survive.

Other than terrorism Pakistan and this buffoon Kidwai have no answer.

Let me suggest something. Pakistan should nuke India. That should help them no? That should solve their problems.

[jayasimha]

===BREAKING NEWS====
Pervez Musharraf escapes pakistan in a unknown military aircraft. The aircraft almost touched the india shore and deviated towards most likely to some unknown gulf state... IB & RAW all monitoring the situation...

[Tuvaluan]

April 1st is a good day for Musharraf's musharraf.