Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

morem · Post by **morem** » 16 Apr 2015 11:12

Kartik wrote:It truly feels great that we have another successful ballistic missile launch and there is hardly a murmur, forget jubilant celebrations on BRF!

+1 , God willing this will be the same for MIRV one day

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 16 Apr 2015 11:38

Kartik wrote:It truly feels great that we have another successful ballistic missile launch and there is hardly a murmur, forget jubilant celebrations on BRF!

Our missiles are the new PSLV- success is routine.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Apr 2015 12:31

Agni III missile successfully test fired

India on Thursday successfully test-fired nuclear weapons-capable Agni-III ballistic missile from the Wheeler Island off Odisha coast. Although the missile has a strike range of more than 3,000 k.m., it was tested for a lesser range, in today's mission.

The surface to surface missile was launched by the personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) at 9.52 a.m. from a mobile launcher as part of regular training exercise for the user.

It was picked up randomly from the production lot and test fired. The SFC is tasked with handling strategic weapons systems. After the command for auto-lanuch was given, the two-stage solid-propelled missile took off on a flight of 1,200 seconds and homed onto the pre-designated target area in the Bay of Bengal with accuracy. Defence Research and Development Organisation sources told The Hindu that it met all the mission objectives.

Various parameters and trajectory of the 17-meter tall missile were tracked and monitored in real time by radars along the east coast, as also by the telemetry and electro-optical systems. Two down-range ships near the impact point recorded the terminal event.
..

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 16 Apr 2015 12:57

Shrinivasan wrote:Agni-III test successful, it looks like DRDO has eliminated the inter-stage grill between the first and second stage. Need to wait for clearer pictures.. Odisha News has a grainy picture showing no grill

If it was randomly picked from the production lot, then we probably would still have the grill.. If the SDREs indeed managed to redesign the A3 without the truss in secret, then that would be quite a feat!

I wish some day the GoI releases a slo mo video of the massive conventional airburst that a >2 ton A3 warhead packs..

That would be a super spine tingler..

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Apr 2015 13:15

^^^
There is a IR video of downrange warhead arrival.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 16 Apr 2015 13:24

Yes saar, If I remember, that video is that of A1 and just a minor burst .. Jingo's heart wants a TFTA air burst

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Apr 2015 18:37

sudhan is right.
We need to see the A3 splashdown and fuze functioning.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 18 Apr 2015 06:37

Recently read somewhere that there was some issues with procuring Derby from Israel for Tejas missile test. So stocks from Indian Navy is being used. What's the timeline set to integrate and test Astra from Tejas. Also has the Navy asked for work on integrating Astra on the Mig-29 being carried out? High time to go for the Astra in a big way.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2015 06:42

israel itself does not use derby on their f16 or f15 I think. they have always used amraam paid for with american grants.
so its a purely export oriented product for them.

they do use the python4 and

chile, colombia, equador are only other derby users in the world!

so there might be no ready production stock, and they are loathe to produce a few just for our testing without a bulk order which HAL cannot give

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 18 Apr 2015 07:16

After the integration and test of Astra being successful from Su-30 MKI, the urgency now must shift to integrating and test firing Astra from Tejas and Mig-29.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 18 Apr 2015 08:24

Singha wrote:israel itself does not use derby on their f16 or f15 I think. they have always used amraam paid for with american grants.
so its a purely export oriented product for them.

they do use the python4 and

chile, colombia, equador are only other derby users in the world!

so there might be no ready production stock, and they are loathe to produce a few just for our testing without a bulk order which HAL cannot give

Thats because these F-1X are actually paid for by American taxpayer money and they have a say in what can go into these planes.

They were not happy with APGs SAR mode on Sufa, but were not allowed to replace with their own radar.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Apr 2015 09:29

The iaf has derby also via spyder but these ground launched ones might have differences with aam model so cannot be directly used.

mody · Post by **mody** » 18 Apr 2015 11:27

Videos of Agni III tests. don't know if this is the actual footage or not. The missile looks almost the same as Agni V, with no truss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MoQDGV9tWc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaEV_2zMIeM

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Apr 2015 11:53

uddu wrote:Recently read somewhere that there was some issues with procuring Derby from Israel for Tejas missile test. So stocks from Indian Navy is being used. What's the timeline set to integrate and test Astra from Tejas. Also has the Navy asked for work on integrating Astra on the Mig-29 being carried out? High time to go for the Astra in a big way.

Do you think you could identify the source? May be best to use the Derby purely as a bridge to the Astra. With the Sea Harriers being retired next year they should have access to enough Derbys to manage until the Astra goes into full series production.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 18 Apr 2015 12:29

mody wrote:Videos of Agni III tests. don't know if this is the actual footage or not. The missile looks almost the same as Agni V, with no truss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MoQDGV9tWc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaEV_2zMIeM

They're just replaying the Agni V test launch vid. Agni III has a truss.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Apr 2015 15:42

shiv wrote:
nash wrote: Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator
Vehicle (HSTDV): DRDO is developing
HSTDV having speed up to 6.2 Mach.
Successful ground test of full scale scramjet
combustor carried out with gaseous ethylene
fuel for 20 sec in connect pipe mode
test facility. Fuel could ignite at extreme
combustor entry Mach number of 2.7.
Combustor performance meets the mission
requirement in terms of thrust generation.
Prototype of cruise vehicle bulkheads has
been realized. Flight hardware of inter-stage
has also been realized for launch vehicle.
I am sick of hearing about this. DRDO needs to demonstrate that they are not taking the country for a ride. In 1996 or 1998 Aero India the entire DRDO display was dominated by a model of this hypersonic vehicle. 20 years down there is virtually no progress. DRDO is bluffing and we are getting hoodwinked. They are achieving nothing in this regard.

I will post an image ( a video grab) of that Hypersonic vehicle model from 20 years ago

"taking the country for a ride"
Hmm... You are here sounding like the journo of your namesake who ran those infamous DRDO series 9 years back in IndianExpress. I say this as many research programs take decades to fructify; from mere theories and lab specimen to viable products usable in real world. If this would be of interest, Russian Chief Designer for the 5th gen plane quoted a figure of how difficult to get the basic science right to get 5th gen engine. Pls google for that. And how long we are hearing about this.. And I say pioneering tech needs longer gestation period.

"20 years down there is virtually no progress"
And how do we know there are no progress.....we may not know. Many of the gyan gained are getting implemented. For ex. Missile K-15 and it was dubbed as one of the top 10 missiles of its class. Or take that Trishul program case. We many not know from where the benefits are going to where but can we say for sure there is no progress....

Even a small (if we think so) program like Astra - the lessons drawn from it are applicable across the entire spectrum. we may or may not see this in 3D form but do you want to bet there is no progress....

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 19 Apr 2015 15:59

Vipul Dave wrote:
Karan M wrote: Any Link?
As the two tests of this missile have proved, using the Russian Glonass GPS and the on-board inertial guidance system and ring laser gyroscope, 15-20 meter CEP (circular error probable — a measure of accuracy) at 5,500km range has been achieved. Moreover, armed with 4-8 MIRV (Multiple Independently-targetable Re-entry Vehicles) warheads — a technology permitting a single missile to carry multiple bombs for dispersed targeting that has been a “screwdriver’s turn away” from being test-ready but whose testing has not been approved by Manmohan Singh, the Agni-V range can be extended to intercontinental distances.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/columns ... 817217.ece

He also told me that Full composite Agni V is in making.

Is this the same guy who called Agni V as IRBM in live commentary till the last minute only to be repulsed by DRDO ICBM tag for Agni V. I see many factual errors. Not only here but in his article on Rafale too. Agni V is more like quickfix solution to get the deterrent range against China and it was said after 1st test the range can be enhanced and Chinese commented it could be 8k NOT 5k km as reported. As revealed, more 'badass' missile with MIRV is coming soon.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Apr 2015 05:18

One pooch while readings Saurav Jha's older article on A-V canister launch:

Agni-V Canister Launch

However, IRNSS even after it is fully deployed this year will not be able to provide coverage to the Agni-V over much of its trajectory, and foreign SATNAV systems cannot always be relied upon for targeting purposes as the signal itself may be switched off especially on the home stretch.

Why doesnt IRNSS filt the bill to provide full coverage for Agni-V?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Apr 2015 05:22

sum wrote:One pooch while readings Saurav Jha's older article on A-V canister launch:

Agni-V Canister Launch

However, IRNSS even after it is fully deployed this year will not be able to provide coverage to the Agni-V over much of its trajectory, and foreign SATNAV systems cannot always be relied upon for targeting purposes as the signal itself may be switched off especially on the home stretch.
Why doesnt IRNSS filt the bill to provide full coverage for Agni-V?

Is it because Agony V range is much beyond IRNSS coverage area?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Apr 2015 05:44

Kanson wrote:
"20 years down there is virtually no progress"
And how do we know there are no progress.....we may not know.

My response here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1831016

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 20 Apr 2015 09:38

RoyG wrote:
mody wrote:Videos of Agni III tests. don't know if this is the actual footage or not. The missile looks almost the same as Agni V, with no truss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MoQDGV9tWc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaEV_2zMIeM
They're just replaying the Agni V test launch vid. Agni III has a truss.

Trussess are used to test out new stages, it has been done for Agni3 already and one without truss (Agni5) is also tested. Now they have a new missile from Agni5 which doesn't have the middle stage and is called Agni3. It helps in mass production of missiles

It also explains the increased range for the new Agni3

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 20 Apr 2015 16:00

Three more tests of India's ICBM (Agni-V) in 12 months
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 391_1.html

"We need to do two to three more development launches and the forces may want to do some. We expect by mid-2016, the missile will be ready for induction," an official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which has developed the missile, told IANS on condition of anonymity as he is not authorised to speak to the media.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Apr 2015 19:29

With the full system China is covered.

Prasanna

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 24 Apr 2015 15:30

Shrinivasan wrote:Agni-III test successful, it looks like DRDO has eliminated the inter-stage grill between the first and second stage. Need to wait for clearer pictures.. Odisha News has a grainy picture showing no grill

I am interested to know the weight of A III. As tessy had told, is it reduced to 22 tons or not?

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 24 Apr 2015 15:38

Kanson wrote:
Is this the same guy who called Agni V as IRBM in live commentary till the last minute only to be repulsed by DRDO ICBM tag for Agni V. I see many factual errors. Not only here but in his article on Rafale too. Agni V is more like quickfix solution to get the deterrent range against China and it was said after 1st test the range can be enhanced and Chinese commented it could be 8k NOT 5k km as reported. As revealed, more 'badass' missile with MIRV is coming soon.

Avinash Chander in one interview told that we need to have 3 ton weight carrying for MIRV Agni(He refused tell it Agni 6). He further told that REV can glide 1000 KM after delivered from Missile.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2015 16:19

I would imagine the weight of A3 was always around 25t ....

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Apr 2015 16:34

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 2m2 minutes ago

Def Min confirms in Lok Sabha about DRDO-MBDA point defence missile system (SRSAM). Project at Acceptance of Necessity stage.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 25 Apr 2015 08:14

sum wrote:One pooch while readings Saurav Jha's older article on A-V canister launch:

Agni-V Canister Launch

However, IRNSS even after it is fully deployed this year will not be able to provide coverage to the Agni-V over much of its trajectory, and foreign SATNAV systems cannot always be relied upon for targeting purposes as the signal itself may be switched off especially on the home stretch.
Why doesnt IRNSS filt the bill to provide full coverage for Agni-V?

I think that INRSS network is placed in northern side of India so it will be able to cover Northern area far beyond India compared to southern area. I think that covering China should not be a problem.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 25 Apr 2015 08:18

besides IRNSS is required only for test launches to accurately monitor missile launch and movement with greater accuracy. It is more required for telementry data rather than for performance of the missile.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Apr 2015 09:02

Sat nav is not used for strategic payloads. Using for telemetry gives independent track for range safety.
You are correct.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 25 Apr 2015 10:23

Singha wrote:I would imagine the weight of A3 was always around 25t ....

And Range much beyond the advertised range of 3500 KM.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 25 Apr 2015 11:13

sohamn wrote:The distance between car nicobar and trak island is 212km. So it was definitely not a breach of range. So obviously, it was a pre-repaired press release, but the test was not as anticipated. May be there were user error, or deviation of flight path etc.

Exactly,
The range at low level is 120 KM as declared. i.e lo-lo configuuretion. IF this is increased to 200 than it is a rise of 67% in range.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 25 Apr 2015 12:49

John wrote:S 300 were "never" purchased publically lets leave it at that.

I think they were S 300 PMU the advance version of S300.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 25 Apr 2015 13:42

Questions arise about the underwater version of A6, will it have the same dimensions as the K4/K5? If not, then it means a new class of SSBN (similar to how the USN developed the Polaris, Poseidon class leading to the Trident class subs due to first-strike and counterforce compulsions).

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Apr 2015 09:10

Ready for the big news people ?

DRDO's QRSAM is entering fabrication stage. It's a canisterised system.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=10216

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Apr 2015 09:51

it will be a welcome addition to the IA and IAF since we cannot afford any more spyders.

remains to be seen if it will fill a naval role vs the Maitri aka the green painted vl-mica that MBDA would have on table.

even if the principal ships got for maitri, there are a lot of ships down to Saryu class that could use boxes of the desi missile.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 26 Apr 2015 10:42

Singha wrote:it will be a welcome addition to the IA and IAF since we cannot afford any more spyders.

remains to be seen if it will fill a naval role vs the Maitri aka the green painted vl-mica that MBDA would have on table.

even if the principal ships got for maitri, there are a lot of ships down to Saryu class that could use boxes of the desi missile.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-in ... vy-2077488

the drdo tender seems to be for the same reported above.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Apr 2015 12:02

Vl-mica ref is to the sensor and thrust vector mechanism rather than the whole missile - as per the news when initially Matiri was announced.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Apr 2015 12:08

Vipul Dave wrote:
Kanson wrote:
Is this the same guy who called Agni V as IRBM in live commentary till the last minute only to be repulsed by DRDO ICBM tag for Agni V. I see many factual errors. Not only here but in his article on Rafale too. Agni V is more like quickfix solution to get the deterrent range against China and it was said after 1st test the range can be enhanced and Chinese commented it could be 8k NOT 5k km as reported. As revealed, more 'badass' missile with MIRV is coming soon.
Avinash Chander in one interview told that we need to have 3 ton weight carrying for MIRV Agni(He refused tell it Agni 6). He further told that REV can glide 1000 KM after delivered from Missile.

The said line was not attributed to him.

Chander says the Agni-6 will carry a massive three-tonne warhead, thrice the weight of the one-tonne warhead that Agni missiles have carried so far. This will allow each Agni-6 missile to launch several nuclear warheads -Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Warheads (MIRVs) - with each warhead striking a different target. Each warhead - called Maneuverable Reentry Vehicle (MARV) - performs evasive maneuvers while hurtling down towards its target, confusing enemy air defence missiles that are trying to destroy them mid-air.

The DRDO says the Agni-6 will have a longer range than the 5,000-kilometre Agni-5, but is not mentioning figures. "The MARVs and MIRVs will give us extended range. I will not be able to tell you how much because that is secret," Saraswat told Business Standard.

Ballistic calculations, however, suggest that at least some of the MIRV warheads on the Agni-6 would reach at least 6,000 kilometres. In a missile that travels 5,000 kilometres, the last MIRV warhead released flies an extra 1,000 kilometres.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Apr 2015 12:12

Klaus wrote:Questions arise about the underwater version of A6, will it have the same dimensions as the K4/K5? If not, then it means a new class of SSBN (similar to how the USN developed the Polaris, Poseidon class leading to the Trident class subs due to first-strike and counterforce compulsions).

"Our ballistic missiles must be compact and road mobile, even the Agni-6 with its heavy payload. We will do this by building the first stage with composites, fitting the Agni-6 with India's first composite 40-tonne rocket motor. This is a technical challenge but we have good capability in lightweight composites," says Chander.

The road mobile Agni-6 would also have stringent limits on its length. "It must be carried on a standard size trailer that can move from one part of the country to another, turn on our roads, cross our bridges and climb our heights. As the payload weight increases, we will require more advanced technologies to keep the missile's length constant," explains Chander.

Coaxing higher performance from smaller rockets becomes especially important in submarine launched ballistic missiles (SLBMs), which can be no longer than 13 metres so that they can fit into the cramped confines of a submarine. Even long-range SLBMs that can fly 14,000 kilometres, like the Chinese JL-2, are built no longer than 13 metres. The DRDO faces this challenge as it develops the K-4 SLBM for the country's Arihant-class nuclear-propelled ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs).

Eventually the Agni-6 will be no taller than the Agni-5, i.e. about 17 metres, says Chander. It will, however, be heavier and thicker - slightly over two metres - which will cater for the different shape of the MIRV payload.