Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 May 2015 11:01

One wonders why we've not thought about a canisterised mobile launcher for Akash,similar to western/Russian SAM systems .This way one would dispense with much of the transporter/canisters,as the mobile launcher systems would just move to desired locations and elevate the launchers/canisters vertically.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 06 May 2015 14:03

^Why are Buk missile systems still uncanistered?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 May 2015 14:49

even the iskanker SRBM is not in cansister though its vertically launched and of similar size to the big russian SAMs.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 May 2015 14:58

or the DF 21

John · Post by **John** » 06 May 2015 15:02

Arun Menon wrote:^Why are Buk missile systems still uncanistered?

Because the missiles are mounted on tracked platforms and the platforms are backward compatible. Kub platforms where used for buk and buk m1 can be fired from buk launchers which also carries fire control radar. If they are canistered they would not fit.

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 06 May 2015 15:50

'3D acquisition radar..." Is this the Rajendra phased array radar? Rajendra is a major part of the Akash missile system, isn't it? Interestingly, it doesn't seem to be mentioned in the few media reports

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 06 May 2015 15:56

Karan M and srai, thanks. Yeah, those reload trucks would solve to an extent, what I was wondering about.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 May 2015 15:58

Given the kind of weather changes that happen in the Indian subcontinent, I think cannistrization is a must for any missile system.
Imagine leaving an uncovered missile when it raining, in the rajasthan heat or during snowfall in J&K or Arunachal, or a dust storm.

With cannisterization, we'll have a ready to fire round, that is also kept safe.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 06 May 2015 16:05

Gagan, the missile is ruggedized and probably has caps in its musharraf and nostrils, to keep sand out

The other rounds are carried in golf-bags on trucks

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 May 2015 16:46

I found this interesting titbit in a report on the MKI-BMos threat to "India's enemies".

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/20/why ... 42687.html

“Work is also underway on a modified lighter and smaller-diameter version of the BrahMos for deployment on the Indian navy's MiG-29K and, potentially, the Dassault Rafale,” says Aviation Week.

And signalling the country’s immunity from western sanctions, DRDO scientists say the 300 km cap on the missile’s range will be removed. The next generation BrahMos is likely to be a longer range weapon. And with the planned increased in speed, the missile will have considerably enhanced kinetic energy despite its smaller size optimised for relatively smaller aircraft such as the MiG-29.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 06 May 2015 20:36

Long ago, Avinash Chander was telling that they are waiting for approval from the MOD to go ahead with Akash MK-2 project with either IIR (Imaging Infrared)/millimetric radar(MMR) seakers. No Idea why DRDO did not follow up with MOD again and MOD did not approve the project yet. Sooner is better. Akash MK-1 uses 1960s era technology(25 km for 600 kg, 60 kg warhead, no one knows if its electronic counter counter measures are really superb). Akash MK-2 will become the 21st century missile.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 06 May 2015 21:15

I'm no expert in missile tech. But maybe we shouldn't tempt fate with comments like "1960s tech". It is a miracle that a local system like Akash is even getting inducted in large numbers. Now only thing we need is somebody whispering to IA about "1960s tech". They tested the missile and found that it satisfies their requirements. So they're inducting it. At this point, there is no need for armchair'giri.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 May 2015 21:40

kvraghavaiah, when you dont know about a topic and wont be bothered looking into it, why make ridiculous assertions. To claim that it uses 1960s technology, is to put it mildly, the heights of ignorance. Phased array radars of the order of the BLR or CAR and digital technology in the 1960's, sure.

So much for your EW claims as well.

http://www.india-seminar.com/2009/603/6 ... cation.htm
The system, tailor-made for the army, has undergone rigorous electronic warfare evaluation at Gwalior, mobility trials at Pokharan desert and extensive functional trials at Kolar. It is comparable to the best systems of its class worldwide.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/ha ... chers.html
The system was put through an electronic warfare (EW) trials conducted to assess the weapon system's survivability in dense jamming environment expected in a battlefield. Multiple aerial jammers (both noise and deception) were flown simultaneously in attack from different directions on the Akash group deployed in combat pattern. Sources claim that the radars of Akash could hold track of all aerial targets despite the jammers, conclusively establishing the operation of built-in electronic counter-counter measures (ECCM) features.

PS: In case you are unaware, the IAF's dedicated EW range is at Gwalior.
PPS: Go look at what jammers the IAF fields.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 May 2015 21:44

devesh wrote:I'm no expert in missile tech. But maybe we shouldn't tempt fate with comments like "1960s tech". It is a miracle that a local system like Akash is even getting inducted in large numbers. Now only thing we need is somebody whispering to IA about "1960s tech". They tested the missile and found that it satisfies their requirements. So they're inducting it. At this point, there is no need for armchair'giri.

In the words of Director General of Army Air Defence (DGAAD) Lt. General VK Saxena , Akash systems are state of the art. No need to worry on AAD's score. They need the latest tech and have adopted Akash. 2 regiments speak for themselves.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 May 2015 23:31

DRDL is developing a new high energy, long duration, solid fuel based ramjet propulsion system at DORP, DRDL, Hyderabad.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 May 2015 06:30

Could be for astra and akash mk2 or even a air to ground SRAM type attack missile

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 07 May 2015 06:42

indranilroy wrote:DRDL is developing a new high energy, long duration, solid fuel based ramjet propulsion system at DORP, DRDL, Hyderabad.

That is interesting, the layout is somewhat like Meteor.

I'd wager a guess that it is throttleable ramjet missile. VLRSAM in the making ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 May 2015 08:13

There were some earlier reports,hints about a JV with Novator for a ULRSAM,AWACS killer,upto 300-400km range.Has there been any new news about the same? Is the DRDL ramjet missile an AAM or SAM?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 May 2015 09:07

I had seen a tender or a paper about this missile before. I had posted here as well. Can't find it now.

Philip sahab, KS-172 does not have a ramjet engine. Besides, this missile will have a 180-200 mm diameter, about half that of the KS-172. Not much is known about this missile outside DRDL. But, I am guessing it will be an AAM first.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 07 May 2015 10:02

Guru log, is Akash capable of stopping Nasr?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 07 May 2015 10:23

Astra Mk3 or Akash Mk3?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 May 2015 11:25

108 more Pinaka systems. Huge success by any yardstick!

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... ro-rockets

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 May 2015 11:35

dharmic...very dharmic.

also to scale up the dhanush and subsequent guns production it must be built in pvt sector line also like bharat forge. an example is during cold war when USN needed lot of ships they build the same design in multiple yards though these yards might have competed with different designs. the winning design was farmed out to all yards to build. they were inducting something like 4 DDG and 4 subs PER YEAR at one point. same for russia.

there is no reason why 1200 instead of 400 dhanush cannot be ordered asap, when the ATAGS is years away from full trials...then few mods to meet feedback etc. towed guns are the cheapest and should be bread and butter.

and as Jha saheb has already mentioned time to invest Seriously in Prahaar to cover Smerch and beyond. Smerch is too expensive and we have no control over its quality and dispersion and future dev unlike prahaar. ideally "composite tactical" MLRS units could field a mix of pinaka1, pinaka2 and prahaar to be ready to hit targets at any depth upto 150k's

the "strategic composite" units should imo field a mix of brahmos, nirbhay, shourya, prithvi2 to target anything from 150-1500km from nap of earth trajectory to depressed ballistic.

we need HUNDREDS of heavy artillery regiments, not tens.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 07 May 2015 13:13

^Isn't there a Pinaka 3 in the works with specs better than smerch, i.e. with a different size rocket rather than Pinaka 2 which has the same rocket size as Pinaka 1, but more range?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 07 May 2015 13:16

Karan M wrote:108 more Pinaka systems. Huge success by any yardstick!

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... ro-rockets

This order has been hanging fire for 10 years and Army has been doing Arjun, LCA, Prahaar on it. We will see when contract i signed and amounts released.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 May 2015 13:23

Haven't seen any prior plans for 6 regiments. This is all new and clearly tied to "winds of change" as versus imports and kickbacks.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 May 2015 13:24

Thakur_B wrote:
indranilroy wrote:DRDL is developing a new high energy, long duration, solid fuel based ramjet propulsion system at DORP, DRDL, Hyderabad.
That is interesting, the layout is somewhat like Meteor.

I'd wager a guess that it is throttleable ramjet missile. VLRSAM in the making ?

It looks like a Ducted rocket system indeed (same as the Meteor). You mean the same by throttleable ramjet I guess. I had heard about DRDL being interested in it few months back. Its a tricky system to work with (the throttling part is difficult physics

). I had in fact asked here on BRF if anyone knows of any ducted rocket project by DRDO, may be 2 yrs ago. That time there was no info. But it seems they are finally starting with it seriously.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 May 2015 13:25

Arun Menon wrote:^Isn't there a Pinaka 3 in the works with specs better than smerch, i.e. with a different size rocket rather than Pinaka 2 which has the same rocket size as Pinaka 1, but more range?

http://m.ibnlive.com/blogs/sauravjha/29 ... rt-ii.html

Saurav Jha: What about artillery rockets such as the Pinaka Mk-II?

Avinash Chander: Pinaka MK-II has been tested and we are offering it for user evaluation trials. It has a range of 65 km and we are now starting work on a Pinaka-III which will be a fully guided rocket with better accuracy and longer range.

Saurav Jha: And what would the guidance scheme be?
Avinash Chander: Inertial with satellite updates.

Saurav Jha: Multi-constellation satellite update? From the IRNSS as well?
Avinash Chander: Yes it will be able to receive updates from multiple constellations including the IRNSS.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 May 2015 14:41

BTW, this was how Smerch was inducted.
http://chinditsdefence.blogspot.in/2010 ... ystem.html

Multiple failures and only assurances by OEM that they would look into it.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 May 2015 15:26

i do not count smerch and krasnopol when thinking about operational orbat.
lord alone knows what they are worth today.

at best i consider it a V2 type terror weapon ... fire if off in general direction of cities if the war gets nasty

without exception every russian kit we purchased post kargil failed to live up to expectations. they even tried to pass off refurbished tunguskas as new when we purchased a few.....

only the ones where we invested heavily in local production brahmos, arihant and su30 have made it out alive.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 May 2015 16:34

ramana wrote:Also remember the canister discussion is about AAD and not the Agni series.

Yes, canister can help to reduce and shorten the reaction time, irrespective of what kind of missile it holds.
This AAD tested from canister is a new missile and the failure is more likely due to Quality issues in new components. Anything implying canister as cause for the failure is just hoax.
This AAD Mk2(if we may call that) have more range and capabilities.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 07 May 2015 16:44

^^^

why is the equivalent Prahaar never considered for air launch from the MKI for ground attack? I was waiting for them to announce Brahmos air launch before asking this question, out of patience now.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 May 2015 17:54

^ what is the weight of AAD/Prahaar ? and what is the payload weight ? If you see that, there can be other better solutions.....

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 May 2015 18:28

Thakur_B wrote:
indranilroy wrote:DRDL is developing a new high energy, long duration, solid fuel based ramjet propulsion system at DORP, DRDL, Hyderabad.

That is interesting, the layout is somewhat like Meteor.
http://i.imgur.com/dXvqGUl.jpg
I'd wager a guess that it is throttleable ramjet missile. VLRSAM in the making ?

I highly doubt it.

Boron fuel, Meteor like similar air ducts and nozzleless booster - cries loudly of the similarities of Meteor. So the probabilities could be..
An Air to Air - like Meteor
or
Air to Ground - such as Anti-radiation missile - which is in development (initially info depicted as liquid fuel/liquid ramjet)
or
Air to Ground - K Series missile - depicted as ramjet.
or
light weight anti-ship missile...
or
whatelse?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 08 May 2015 11:18

My guess on various Ramjet projects in India:-

Brahmos Liquid fueled Ramjet missile 3 to 2.5 tons missile

Brahmos-Mini Liquid fueled Ramjet Missile 1.5 tons missile - Proposed

LRCM solid fueled Ramjet missile 1000 kg missile - Speculated as equivalent to French ASAMP-A

Anti Radiation Missile Liquid fueled - My guess is that it is equivalent of KH-31 with weight of 650kg and range of 100km in lo mode and 300km in hi mode

Now this new Solid fueled ramjet missile may be LRAAM equivalent to Meteor AAM.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 08 May 2015 14:06

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 12m12 minutes ago

#BreakingNews Army conducts successful test-firing of BrahMos from Car Nicobar region. Missiles hits target bullseye.

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 May 2015 14:52

^^ Is there a missile regiment of IA in A&N?
Werent there only couple of amphibious brigades there?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 08 May 2015 17:54

Kanson wrote:^ what is the weight of AAD/Prahaar ? and what is the payload weight ? If you see that, there can be other better solutions.....

With air launch we hope to add more range to it and maybe if we add some context,

1) you need reach into Afghanistan and the use of Brahmos isn't justified, Nirbhay will be attempted to be countered with AMRAAM equipped F-16s
2) modifications would need to be performed on the Mig-29, Rafale in future to equip it with Brahmos-M, the air launch of AAD/Prahaar is a head start
3) MKI with one centerline Brahmos and two AADs under wings, with the AADs acting as decoys with no warhead and high RCS to draw the AMRAAMs or S-300 class SAMs either away from the MKI or the Brahmos itself to increase its success
4) AAD could be used to target stealth drones and the J-series stealth aircraft which have low RCS but may not be as agile as conventional fighter aircraft, the AAD provides a bigger seeker aperture than the Astra
5) Borrowing from MALD-J (air launched decoy and jammer) concept, while the AAD decoy is doing ECCM with target aircraft having Jammer pods, Astra can still sneak-in in passive/anti-radiation mode without its seeker going active?
6) air-launched AADs in the BMD role around key cities if the ground launchers are gone or overwhelmed, at the very least it would impact adversary's calculation

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 08 May 2015 18:03

Kanson wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:

That is interesting, the layout is somewhat like Meteor.
http://i.imgur.com/dXvqGUl.jpg
I'd wager a guess that it is throttleable ramjet missile. VLRSAM in the making ?
I highly doubt it.

Boron fuel, Meteor like similar air ducts and nozzleless booster - cries loudly of the similarities of Meteor. So the probabilities could be..
An Air to Air - like Meteor
or
Air to Ground - such as Anti-radiation missile - which is in development (initially info depicted as liquid fuel/liquid ramjet)
or
Air to Ground - K Series missile - depicted as ramjet.
or
light weight anti-ship missile...
or
whatelse?

You don't need a throttleable ramjet to strike ground targets. This may be Astra 3 or some sort of SAM. Can't be QRSAM because ramjet is no good for such small ranges. That would imply Astra-3 or VLRSAM.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 May 2015 19:05

BrahMos Land-attack Cruise Missile Successfully Test Fired From Car Nicobar Region - New Indian Express

An advanced version of supersonic BrahMos land-attack cruise missile was successfully test fired for the first time in full operational configuration in the eastern sector on Friday, revalidating the formidable weapon’s precision strike capability.

Defence sources said the land-to-land configuration of BrahMos Block–III version was flight tested from a Mobile Autonomous Launcher (MAL) in Car Nicobar region for its full-range of 290-kms at about 1.10 pm. MAL is an autonomous vehicle with its own communication, power supply and fire control system.

Meeting all flight parameters including high level manoeuvers, the supersonic cruise missile successfully hit the designated land-based target with desired accuracy, officials confirmed. The launch was the 47th test-firing of BrahMos, with the missile achieving unmatched precise hit.

“The test has once again established our missile as an incredibly lethal weapon with pin-point accuracy to take on enemy targets anywhere. I congratulate the Indian Army on this successful launch”, CEO and MD of BrahMos Aerospace Limited Sudhir Kumar Mishra said in a statement.