Transport Aircraft for IAF

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 May 2015 17:46

Singha wrote:Antonov just flew their MTA type plane for the 1st time this week. so that part of Ukr is functioning safely. ofcourse their ability to ship parts and teach HAL how to do the upg is a matter of concern.

I think the fear is that Indian "stuff" will/is get/getting diverted for war efforts, without Indian permission. What has not come back or the items produced for Indian upgrade is ........................ gone. Vanished into the fog of war.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 May 2015 18:43

C-295W is not only a replacement for HS-748 and An-32, but also a good candidate for future ASW, MR, AEW and Intelligence gathering roles.

HS-748 was being used only for communication duties AFAIK - so lets see if we procure a passenger variant like PAF C-235s.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 14 May 2015 18:53

mody wrote:I hope beyond the 56 aircrafts ordered, Tata-Airbus can come with a stretched version with higher thrust engines to take the payload capacity to about 12 tons. They can make another 100 of these stretched versions from 2022-23 onwards (approx to finish development and complete the current order). We can start retiring the AN32s from 2025 onwards once these new baby's start coming online.

Don't like the Ka-226 deal. The LuH is very close to its first flight. Why go for full import when domestic capacity exists. Could have ordered another 50 odd Mi-17 V5 instead to keep the russians happy.

LUH is close to its first flight? A fully functional prototype is nowhere to be seen.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 May 2015 20:16

with the cheetahs getting worn out - we cannot wait for LUH

question is how well did the KA 226 perform in the HA trials

Russian reports said well - but thats expected

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2015 20:23

Surya: Wait a second...did the Ka-226 not go through trials against the Eurocopter Fennec? Am I mistaken in that assumption? Did the Army just buy a chopper without trying it out first?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 May 2015 20:34

Russian stuff always does well in trials. Its service is where there is a problem.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2015 21:03

its always less paratroops than raw people in any mil transport.
if its 126 paras, it might be 175 people.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 May 2015 21:34

Rakesh

No it did go through trials-

Just after reading Viveks comparison I was wondering how close or better was it

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 15 May 2015 05:27

pandyan wrote:http://thebetacoefficient.blogspot.com/ ... opter.html

Ka-226 appears to be the pretty much bottom of the pack. what made them pick this particular helicopter?

So it appears that the Kamov will not be able to replace the Cheetah at Siachen.

So the LUH will eventually have to come to the rescue.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 May 2015 05:38

Ka-226 looks like a whats available choice.
LUH is not here. So nix
Bell is another massa buy. how much more you will give massa tribute?
Eurocopter is another EU buy.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 15 May 2015 05:42

The Bell and Eurocopter are probably much more expensive also

But if the Kamov cannot perform at high altitudes, then a second LUH will have to be bought

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 15 May 2015 05:45

Probably Putin, during his last visit, made an offer the GOI couldn't refuse

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 May 2015 06:25

sohams, wrote its more versatile and has multirole swap capability.

Am good.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 May 2015 06:33

Probably Putin, during his last visit, made an offer the GOI couldn't refuse

Second that.

Importance of Russia is in energy and not def.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 15 May 2015 08:11

.

Someone Should notice that Ka 226 uses the French Turbomecca Engines, also Russia right now on EU arms Embargo

Coincidence affect the Putin's phone call to Modi day before DAC meet

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 May 2015 10:26

The deal was done when Putin last visited.The DAC announcement was applying the finishing touches. Secondly,the LUH contest was repeated at least twice earlier. Both contestants met all the IA's requirements,esp. "hot and high". Several Russian helos and aircraft like the Sukhoi Superjet use western engines,due to the thaw in relations after the Cold War. The Sergei (KA-226) comes with both RR and Turbomeca options. Our MKIs have French and Israeli avionics,etc. as well and warships have sensors and weaponry from diverse sources. The unique feature of the Sergei is the modular cabin alternatives.Ambulance pods,etc. The cabin can even be removed to allow a higher lifting capacity,v.useful when used in high alt. supply ops. The fact that it is a full TOT to be built in India is good leverage. Sikorsky/Boeing(?) have also indicated setting up a manufacturing unit for the 100+ naval helo requirement if their bird selected.

Now that the C-295 has been chosen,specialist variants for MRP,AEW,etc. should be built standardising on the platform.One can easily see a demand for over 100 aircraft,even more if civilian passr. versions are built/offered to airlines.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 May 2015 03:09

While, the C-295 plan is really going to give a big boost to the indigenous manufacturing capability, the Ka-226 line is a BIG FARCE. If it is true that the Sun group is the Indian entity which will take care of the line here, then Russian Helicopters has literally chosen an "leading principal investor and private equity fund manager in Russia and India" to produce the helis here. If this is not a farce, then what is? Does anybody want to guess what knowhow, manufacturing tech or indeginization this will bring to India?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 May 2015 03:11

Cross posting from the Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments thread.

indranilroy wrote:As the production of the 228 draws to a close at HAL, Kanpur, I had thought, HAL would fasten its belt and concentrate on getting the Saras (14 and 18 seater) and MTA to the market. Instead, they have solicited an RFI for design, development and manufacturing of a small commuter plane . The plane will have a maximum capacity of 10 passengers with an unpressurized cabin. I guess they are looking at somebody like Pilatus who are offloading their PC-12 production to TASL.

But, I don't think this is a good move at all. The Saras would have given them a high performance aircraft with a category of 14-18 passengers which is not provided by any other manufacturer in India. Instead, sample the competition HAL has decided to enter in (in order of increasing performance):
1. Mahindra Aerospace GA-8: Rugged, 8 seater with no cabin pressurization.
2. Mahindra Aerospace GA-8 (turbo-charged): Rugged, 8 seater with no cabin pressurization.
3. Mahindra Aerospace GA-10: Rugged, 10 seater with no cabin pressurization, turboprop.
4. TASL, PC-12 (turboprop): Rugged, 12 seater, pressurized cabin, turboprop.

Why would a customer not go for these proven planes which are known to provide the best bang for the buck in their respective categories? And HAL will at least a few years behind them in reaching the market. The only thing that HAL has said is that it wants to use composites extensively, which means that there will be some weight savings. How much in 2000-2500 kg machine? Will that be a deciding factor for the customer. I beg to differ.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 May 2015 07:27

PRF. It is a retirement fund. No idea what P stands for.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 May 2015 07:47

the ka226 will probably be like the An70 deal .... the host country has no interest or funds to produce and develop it so they are offloading all the production kit, designs etc in a handover kind of deal. a player like HAL helicopter div could take this and make something out of it, with the necessary mods like reducing weight etc. it will be the death of LUH but the KA226 could itself be the new LUH under a new name "MrityunJaya" - victory over death!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 May 2015 13:12

Shifted KA-226 post to helo td.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 24 May 2015 06:51

indranilroy wrote:the Ka-226 line is a BIG FARCE. ...Does anybody want to guess what knowhow, manufacturing tech or indeginization this will bring to India?

Lemme guess... screwdriver technology?

And look, reliance and pipava are also trying to get screwdriver technology.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 May 2015 08:58

Err, How complex is the Ka-226 technology hain ji?
Counter rotating props? Other than that what? The french engine?

I don't see a tech challenge that HAL can't overcome wrt Ka-226.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 May 2015 09:17

indranilroy wrote:If this is not a farce, then what is? Does anybody want to guess what knowhow, manufacturing tech or indeginization this will bring to India?

In a word - 'squat'.

200 Ka-226s to be ordered. 50 delivered off-the-shelf. Remainder assembled locally @ 30-40 per year. Indigenous content rising to 30% after 3-4 years. And you can bet even the 'indigenous' content will consist of the lowest hanging fruit on the technological tree.

(And this assuming that all specified ToT comes through.)

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 24 May 2015 23:15

I think you guys are too negative and pessimistic. At the very least, I see these benefits from the Ka-226 deal:

1. A new helicopter manufacturing facility in India, in parallel with HAL's existing manufacturing facilities, churning out replacements for the ageing Chetaks and Cheetahs. Even 30% value add in India is better than 100% import.

2. Jobs for Indians. IMHO, even a 'screwdriver-turning' job is better than being unemployed.

And I still think the Ka-226 will not kill the LUH, but complement it.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 May 2015 05:32

^I think it will be complementing LUH as well, because it is going to be a joke and the military will be FORCED to depend on the HAL LUH, particularly in the mountains.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 May 2015 08:13

the KA226 might be able to serve in arunachal and sikkim and ofcourse in the plains. the J&K sector might have to be reserved for the Dhruv and in future the LUH

tawang is 9000ft, Leh is around 11,500ft, Se La pass enroute to tawang 13,700ft .. these are workable heights

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2015 14:10

It has a service ceiling in excess of 7000m,good enough for our needs. Let's wait and see when the HAL LUH arrives and passes its extensive trials,then we can buy as much as HAL can produce.Any bets on dates guys?

There seems to be little news on the MTA,an urgent requirement.What ails the JV project? Will there be movement only after the PM visits Russia?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 May 2015 16:37

The claims russia makes are to be take with a ton of salt. The thing probably can carry its own weight at Siachen, unlike the excellent work done by the Dhruv and will be done by the LUH. Very rarely have the russian hype matched the reality. I would take Su-30MKI as a good product where it actually works more or less as it is supposed to (even if it uses more brute force than anything else), but even then IAF would rather have the Rafale. Speaks volumes about the quality of russian junk.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2015 19:09

"...will be done by the LUH",Yaas,like waiting for Godot!

Mock-up only has still not flown and is anyone's guess as to when it will enter series production and at what rate? Dhruv prod. figures could be still better,at least 4+/month,50 a year fine." The KA-226 has passed its high alt trials,achieving a 7000m+ alt. Why don't you accept the IA's trials,done twice,not once? Let it perform for a year and then evaluate it,

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 25 May 2015 20:13

^This is the second time you are ROLFing about something indigenous. Do you find things Made In India are a joke? T-90 trials make me very confident about IA results. The russian flying crap is the real joke, with grand total of 69 made since 1997, with uses like crop dusting its forte. The russian junk and the T-90 wallahs in the military are made for each other, jokes and all.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 May 2015 21:19

Kakkaji wrote:I think you guys are too negative and pessimistic. At the very least, I see these benefits from the Ka-226 deal:

1. A new helicopter manufacturing facility in India, in parallel with HAL's existing manufacturing facilities, churning out replacements for the ageing Chetaks and Cheetahs. Even 30% value add in India is better than 100% import.

2. Jobs for Indians. IMHO, even a 'screwdriver-turning' job is better than being unemployed.

And I still think the Ka-226 will not kill the LUH, but complement it.

The original tender called for local assembly with 50% offsets. The Russians should have been asked for atleast this much.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 26 May 2015 09:20

Arun Menon wrote:^This is the second time you are ROLFing about something indigenous. Do you find things Made In India are a joke? T-90 trials make me very confident about IA results. The russian flying crap is the real joke, with grand total of 69 made since 1997, with uses like crop dusting its forte. The russian junk and the T-90 wallahs in the military are made for each other, jokes and all.

Is this post supposed to make sense?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 26 May 2015 10:59

Aditya G wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:^This is the second time you are ROLFing about something indigenous. Do you find things Made In India are a joke? T-90 trials make me very confident about IA results. The russian flying crap is the real joke, with grand total of 69 made since 1997, with uses like crop dusting its forte. The russian junk and the T-90 wallahs in the military are made for each other, jokes and all.
Is this post supposed to make sense?

This is the second time you are ROLFing about something indigenous. Do you find things Made In India are a joke? (the first time he made a joke about the crashing IJT, like that is supposed to be funny)

Sarc-on/ T-90 trials make me very confident about IA results. /sarc-off

The russian flying crap (KA-226) is the real joke, with grand total of 69 made since 1997 (usually anything worthwhile made by the russians are made in the 100s at least, limited numbers usually mean junk), with uses like crop dusting as its forte. The russian junk and the T-90 wallahs in the military are made for each other, jokes and all

Hope that clears it up, sorry if it came off as unreadable.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2015 12:08

I find things yet to be made in India,yet to fly ,yet to pass their trials,yet to enter production and with no idea of the cost as well being touted as better than an existing product readily available which has also passed its trials (twice), as a sick joke upon the nation sadly touted by our very own snake-oil salesmen.

Had it been acquiring a Dhruv equivalent helo,which has passed with flying colours and is in series production,the answer would be a resounding NO. When the LUH eventually makes the grade and is in production,by all means buy as much as you want. But right now the IA's requirement should've been met years ago.To completely ignore the wails of the widows and wives,posted,who have protested against operating our obsolete aging Chetaks,etc., denigrating the considered decision of the GOI/MOD,is simply heartless and stone-hearted,simply appalling.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 26 May 2015 13:29

^Your selective bleeding heart for those widowed by non-russian products is truly unique (outside of russia that is). What of those widowed by the flying coffin?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2015 01:20

Russia's UAC urges HAL to speed up joint transport aircraft project

Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), with an eye on India, has asked its Indian partner to quicken the pace of the design work for their joint production of the Multi-role Transport Airplanes (MTAs).

UAC chief Yuri Slyusar also said India has agreed to install the Russian PS-90 engines on the MTAs which the two countries are jointly developing. State-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is UAC's Indian partner on this long-delayed project.

Speaking to journalists here at the Paris International Air Show, Slyusar said, "The Indians have agreed to the PS-90. The project itself will replace the Antonov group of airplanes which in the near future will begin to leave service en masse."

He said UAC has held meetings with its various foreign partners here at the Air Show, including with HAL, for their joint project to develop the MTA medium transport aircraft.

"The aircraft is expected to be in great demand not only in Russia and India, but in other markets. Preliminary design stage is completed and for now, the design is being approved by the two parties," he said.

The project is currently at the stage of adoption of the preliminary design, and UAC hopes to sign a contract on the transition to the stage for a detailed design by 2015-end.

"We really hope that by the end of the year we will sign a contract for the next stage of detailed design. If we manage to create a competitive product within a short period of time, it will have very good perspectives.

"That's why we are asking our Indian partners to increase the pace to proceed with the aircraft design itself. We need to manage the maiden flight and start flight testing by 2020," Slyusar said.

The initial agreement for the project was signed by the two countries way back in 2007. UAC and HAL are 50:50 partners in this aircraft project that will have manufacturing facilities in both the countries.

Initially, there are plans to make 205 aircraft, some of which can be exported to other countries. While Russia will take delivery of 100 planes, India will have 45 as per initial plans. The total number of aircraft to be made can almost double after taking into account the civil aircraft demand

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2015 02:13

So it took 10 years to decide on the engine? What is the PS-90 engine? Who makes and where? Is it available or some futuristic/notional engine?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Jun 2015 03:54

ramana wrote:So it took 10 years to decide on the engine? What is the PS-90 engine? Who makes and where? Is it available or some futuristic/notional engine?

Its the replacement for the Il-76's D-30 engines. Operational on the RuAF's upgraded Il-76s, new Il-76MDs as well as our Phalcons. The IAF refused to accept it for the MTA because the performance was apparently insufficient to allow it to operate from our high altitude bases safely. The Russians are apparently hoping that the performance issue can be overlooked.

The IAF's concerns centre around the twin Aviadvigatel PD-14M turbofan engines intended to power the platform. Sources say the IAF has indicated four major critera in engine performance on paper that don't match stated performance requirements in terms of altitude, re-light characteristics (the official I spoke to requested that Livefist did not report specifics). It hasn't helped that late last year, the United Aircraft Corp. reported a rise in project cost, suggesting that HAL would need to be in for more than the $300 million initially agreed upon when the programme kicked off. - Livefist

(PS-90 is an older engine type - greater brute power, lower efficiency but one that still faces the re-light safety issue that the IAF is not willing to compromise on.)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2015 04:44

It will depend on who "India" is.

I suspect that the conduit of communication is via HAL, so the "urges". IF so, then there hs got to be some other party beyond HAL that is holding up signing off on the Russian engine.

Bet it is the IAF itself.