Indian Roads Thread

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 24 May 2015 14:02

@Nandakumar,

Madhya Kailash Vandalur road won't cut it any more. Vandalur zoo crossing and Guduvanchery is another bottleneck. Crossing the Vandalur zoo intersection is another nightmare and with absolute lack of foresight, they have new ORR joining the GST Road prior to the zoo crossing instead of after it. My wife commutes to M City and I frequent the road at least twice a week for personal purposes

There is a already a planned 6 lane Adyar, Medavakkam, Camp Road, Bharat Engineering college, Mappedu, kelambakkam- Vandalur road. and as part of it Camp road-Mappedu had already been 6 laned. However, it is not an expressway. The future 6-lane announcement means that all the real estate developers beeline there and prices have gone up and the area will become more congested rather than becoming a freeway.

We need an express way that takes us directly to Chinglepet bypass from Guindy or have the Mumbai type expressway which has continuous set of flyovers covering all major junctions.

As far as the trains, the third line (the old meter gauge line is yet to be converted into BG and the project has been a big drag. In effect there are only two lines. There was a project to connect Guduvanchery station to the Sriperumbudur corridor and then onwards to the Thiruvallur line, which got shelved as part of the 2014 railway budget because SR sat on it without doing anything about it.

Each town and city in every state India will have a similar set of problems that needs to be addressed. By the time, the authorities react, it is too late and the problem/goals are either changed or compounded. Road infrastructure in India needs a major revamp which should be addressed holistically i.e., bottom up from the local for ground feedback and top down from the central for best practices/standardization). Instead what we have is piece meal solutions and band aids. LAB is such a crucial bill for India's development and all we have is partisan politics which will pull the country down.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 24 May 2015 14:44

Bade wrote:Heard there was a 15km 8 hour traffic jam in NCR. So building out 8 lane expressways does not solve it. Toll booths further slow things down as traffic density increases exponentially.

I was stuck in that jam!

The traffic flow on that highway is intense (even though the entire stretch is signal free). It was operator's mistake.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 24 May 2015 16:31

Sridhar K wrote:@Nandakumar,

Madhya Kailash Vandalur road won't cut it any more. Vandalur zoo crossing and Guduvanchery is another bottleneck. Crossing the Vandalur zoo intersection is another nightmare and with absolute lack of foresight, they have new ORR joining the GST Road prior to the zoo crossing instead of after it. My wife commutes to M City and I frequent the road at least twice a week for personal purposes

There is a already a planned 6 lane Adyar, Medavakkam, Camp Road, Bharat Engineering college, Mappedu, kelambakkam- Vandalur road. and as part of it Camp road-Mappedu had already been 6 laned. However, it is not an expressway. The future 6-lane announcement means that all the real estate developers beeline there and prices have gone up and the area will become more congested rather than becoming a freeway.

We need an express way that takes us directly to Chinglepet bypass from Guindy or have the Mumbai type expressway which has continuous set of flyovers covering all major junctions.

As far as the trains, the third line (the old meter gauge line is yet to be converted into BG and the project has been a big drag. In effect there are only two lines. There was a project to connect Guduvanchery station to the Sriperumbudur corridor and then onwards to the Thiruvallur line, which got shelved as part of the 2014 railway budget because SR sat on it without doing anything about it.

Each town and city in every state India will have a similar set of problems that needs to be addressed. By the time, the authorities react, it is too late and the problem/goals are either changed or compounded. Road infrastructure in India needs a major revamp which should be addressed holistically i.e., bottom up from the local for ground feedback and top down from the central for best practices/standardization). Instead what we have is piece meal solutions and band aids. LAB is such a crucial bill for India's development and all we have is partisan politics which will pull the country down.

Thanks Sridhar for that update. I am a little behind times on the developments in the Tambaram-Chingleput sector. Last went to Tambaram on some work at the MCC. But that was three or may be even four years ago. Took the Thiruvanmiyur, Tharamani and Velacheri Road to get there. Traffic, a little past the morning peak hour, was okay. The next time on return from somewher down South, I thought I was being clever. Decided to avoid the Tambaram, Guindy traffic congestion (which I knew about) and turned right on the Vandalur Kelambakkam Road (traffic conditions I knew nothing about!). Was badly mauled by the traffic. Result, missed an important 8 PM appointment in Adyar when I thought I will have an hour and a half to spare. My sympathies ever since then, has been with those who have to commute for a living to those parts.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 24 May 2015 16:44

hanumadu wrote:The article I read said the jam was because the operator closed 24 out of the 32 toll booths without notice on a trial basis.

So effectively becomes an 8-lane bottleneck point. Assuming the operators at the booth are fast or have automatic collection lanes, it still tells you what will happen if traffic density increases at a rate seen in India. As the number of vehicles increases, adding more lanes will not help either in peak hours, and once caught in a jam, it takes even much longer to release the packed density for a free flow.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 24 May 2015 18:09

^^^The bottle neck in this case is a temporary one caused by ineptitude or else we would have heard of such traffic jams daily. I don't think it will be a bottle neck in the future.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 24 May 2015 21:06

I am not sure what is stopping the implementation of something like EZ PASS across all the toll booths in India.

It is simply stupid to create such bottlenecks at toll booth with manual cash handling.

I was extremely happy when the automated toll collection started in the elevated way in BLR Silk board to E City but never saw it implemented whole sale on all toll booths or even implementation of credit card enabled payment and auto top up, web profile for statement etc.

In fact all permit offices on state borders should be done away with using these automated payments.

That would be another landmark anti corruption and efficiency improvement scheme similar to GST implementation.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 May 2015 10:29

Picklu wrote:I am not sure what is stopping the implementation of something like EZ PASS across all the toll booths in India.
.......
I was extremely happy when the automated toll collection started in the elevated way in BLR Silk board to E City but never saw it implemented whole sale on all toll booths or even implementation of credit card enabled payment and auto top up, web profile for statement etc.

Your wish is getting heard sir. FasTag system is getting rolled out in full swing. Separate lines are being constructed in many toll booths (between Bangalore and Commie heaven - Kerala, and I am sure it is happening else where as well). This system should be operational by end of the year, is what I feel.
ETC: Indian Toll ways
FasTag @ICICI

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 25 May 2015 10:37

What about the sriperumbudur tambaram connection? Is that built? I got lost there once trying that half built connection.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 25 May 2015 18:17

Sachin wrote:
Picklu wrote:I am not sure what is stopping the implementation of something like EZ PASS across all the toll booths in India.
.......
I was extremely happy when the automated toll collection started in the elevated way in BLR Silk board to E City but never saw it implemented whole sale on all toll booths or even implementation of credit card enabled payment and auto top up, web profile for statement etc.
Your wish is getting heard sir. FasTag system is getting rolled out in full swing. Separate lines are being constructed in many toll booths (between Bangalore and Commie heaven - Kerala, and I am sure it is happening else where as well). This system should be operational by end of the year, is what I feel.
ETC: Indian Toll ways
FasTag @ICICI

Sir, it was Sep 2014 when they promised to roll it out nationally by end of the year. Now it is the middle of next year and no such thing in sight.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 26 May 2015 09:58

Gus wrote:What about the sriperumbudur tambaram connection? Is that built? I got lost there once trying that half built connection.

Are you talking about the Tambaram-Oragadam-Sriperumbudur connection? If yes, it has been completed almost 3 years back except that the last stretch is two lane near Sriperumbudur. This route is actually longer and most prefer Tambaram-Mudichur-manimangalam- Sriperumbudur which is shorter and takes max 45 minutes. This is very scenic old style highway with tamarind trees lining up on both sides of the road, paddy fields and lakes.

Even the Outer ring road (half ring road) is almost complete and well laid. These projects were conceptualized in the previous DMK regimes and getting completed.

Towards the end of the last DMK regime and now the AIADMK regime (last 5 years) have been wasted with zero planning and zero execution of planned projects. DMK is very corrupt but at least they were pretty good on infrastructure projects thought their objective was major kickbacks.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 26 May 2015 11:10

gadkari is saying that form 2016 he will have 30 km roads a day.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 26 May 2015 13:34

Gus wrote:What about the sriperumbudur tambaram connection? Is that built? I got lost there once trying that half built connection.

That road has been completed. If you are approaching tambaram from the airport you climb on to the ramp that turn right towards Mudichur Road and from there it is straight stretch that joins NH 45 near the rajiv Gandhi memorial. I am told that it is a good six lane road, now.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 26 May 2015 13:51

Sachin wrote:
Picklu wrote:I am not sure what is stopping the implementation of something like EZ PASS across all the toll booths in India.
.......
I was extremely happy when the automated toll collection started in the elevated way in BLR Silk board to E City but never saw it implemented whole sale on all toll booths or even implementation of credit card enabled payment and auto top up, web profile for statement etc.
Your wish is getting heard sir. FasTag system is getting rolled out in full swing. Separate lines are being constructed in many toll booths (between Bangalore and Commie heaven - Kerala, and I am sure it is happening else where as well). This system should be operational by end of the year, is what I feel.
ETC: Indian Toll ways
FasTag @ICICI

Toll roads are cash generating businesses and in these days, nobody wants to give up on cash business. So there is resistance from project promoters who got the concession for a given stretch of the national highway. The ostensible objection is that the promoter has to invest in some additional equipment for reading the RFID tag on a vehicle and make accounting adjustment against the stored value on a particular tag.
If this is not bad enough the other serious resistance comes from another source. It is the nature of the concession agreement. The first lot of BOOT projects on national highways were awarded on revenue sharing basis where the project promoter shares a percentage of the toll revenue with the NHAI. Now, electronic tag leave, as can be expected, an electronic trail! The project promoters do not want it as the current freedom that they have for declaring what they think is a traffic receipt collection figure that they can safely get away with. The next set of projects were on a framework where the NHAI assumed a traffic risk. Here too, the electronic trail takes away the freedom to demand reimbursement on the ground that the projected volume is greater than the actual traffic and hence the loss has to be reimbursed. The third set of projects are those where NHAI promised to pay an annuity as in these projects the construction cost was presumed to be such that it cannot be recouped within the concession period given the traffic volumes. But there is a fine print in these contracts that allows NHAI to claw back a portion of the annuities it has already paid if the traffic volumes are larger than the initial estimate that resulted in a annuity from the NHAI to the project promoter.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 26 May 2015 16:26

Sridhar K, Nandakumar- take a break and visit Nungambakkam , Chetpet, Kilpauk area sometime especially peak hours.

Quite frankly any road within 30Km of Core Chennai these days is congested. In fact Chennai seems to have only 3 highways out (forget ECR), the AP Highway is least used by people going on a holiday. Hyderabad has 5 (Nagpur, Mumbai, Bengaluru, Vijaywada, Warangal+ Vikarabad, Srisailam, Nagarjunasagar), Bengaluru has around 6 ( Hosur, Old Madras Road, Hyderabad, Tumkur, Magdi, Mysore + Banerghatta, Kanakapura Roads).

This means that to nearly 80% of TN from Chennai GST road is the shortest- even Salem, Coimbatore is closer through this.

During a recent road trip, it takes 1 hour from my house to Sriperumbudur toll(non peak hours), 1 hour for the next toll 65 km away and 1 hour 20 mins to reach Krishnagiri( probably driving faster than I should due to previous frustration). so I covered 150km in the time I would 15-20 Km in Chennai city. Return journey I was much more sensible.

In fact until 10 km after kanchipuram there is even lots of 2 wheeler + auto traffic.

I think Chennai needs a few more Highways, probably develop ECR into 4 lane with divider, have a direct road to Salem which branches from GST should help decongestion. or make GST into 8 lanes with flyovers like the Vellore Krishnagiri stretch is the only solution.

If one drives along GST based on past experience traffic drops a lot after the Panruti, Villupuram and Salem turn offs, i.e around 180km from Chennai. It becomes an ideal highway for the last 120km to Trichy.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 26 May 2015 20:16

Aditya_V wrote:probably develop ECR into 4 lane with divider,

This part is happening: Drive to Mahabs from Chennai to get safer soon - The Hindu

One year since the widening work on the scenic East Coast Road from Akkarai to Mamallapuram, and a 19-km stretch on the road has an additional lane.

The Rs. 300-crore work on the 33.5-km stretch is expected to be completed by March 2016.
[snip]

On completion, the road — with 19 box culverts, five minor bridges and one major bridge at Muttukadu — will be four lanes wide, and will have a two-metre-wide median and paved shoulders. The total width of the road will be 24 metres. Four laning is expected to be completed before monsoon, say officials.

Aditya_V wrote:have a direct road to Salem which branches from GST should help decongestion. or make GST into 8 lanes with flyovers like the Vellore Krishnagiri stretch is the only solution.

If one drives along GST based on past experience traffic drops a lot after the Panruti, Villupuram and Salem turn offs, i.e around 180km from Chennai. It becomes an ideal highway for the last 120km to Trichy.

Agreed. The GoTN should recognize the locus of growth is to the south west, and having both southbound (Tiruchi/Madurai) and southwest (CBE/Tiruppur/Salem) traffic using the same GST is not enough. The western route through Vellore is not much better, since it goes to another behemoth called Bengaluru with the industrial area of Vellore/Ambur/Hosur adding to traffic.

A new highway dedicated to the CBE route is the need of the hour - that will take the load off GST. Otherwise, places like Tidivanam, Villupuram, Ulundurpet are going to be severely congested forever. A new 6/8 lane highway starting from Chennai (say Porur), and going southwest - cutting across Oragadam, Vandavasi, Gingee, Kallakurichi, Namakkal, Kangeyam and swinging west into CBE with turn outs at Attur (for Salem) and Namakkal (for Erode) and Kangeyam (for Tirupur) will connect these industrial engines and take the load off NH-45 and NH-4/46/7/68.

Of course, GST needs to be 6 laned till Tiruchi at least, and then between Dingidul and Madurai.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 26 May 2015 20:17

Aditya_V

We all know that City traffic is difficult and I avoid coming into the city as much as possible. My daily drive is through the city periphery from Sembakkam to DLF via Kathipara. I avoid GST and take the Kamatchi hospital, velachery ring road. Due to traffic jam near airport. I spend 20-30 minutes in DLF to come out of during peak hours with traffic jams from the exit ramps of building deep inside DLF.

Just want to highlight that these days, the traffic congestion is becoming a norm even in the suburbs as well as the highways out of Chennai.

I think Chennai needs a few more Highways, probably develop ECR into 4 lane with divider, have a direct road to Salem which branches from GST should help decongestion. or make GST into 8 lanes with flyovers like the Vellore Krishnagiri stretch is the only solution.

If one drives along GST based on past experience traffic drops a lot after the Panruti, Villupuram and Salem turn offs, i.e around 180km from Chennai. It becomes an ideal highway for the last 120km to Trichy.

That is precisely the point.

With GST (as well as GNT and Ponnamalle high road) being the three important gateways to Chennai, what we have is 4 lane roads when it currently needs 8 lane and don't see even a 6 lane project in the works. Continuous flyover model like Vellore is what I was alluding to when I mentioned the Mumbai expressway (eastern and western ones).

The other issue is that when the highway is expanded to 4 or 6 lanes, all the real estate sharks starts beelining to develop plots along the highway apart from industries. Just see the adds for real estate in Tamil Channels, Chennaikku miga arugil - 30 minutes on expressway blah blah... (Near Tindivanam, Vikravandi etc.) during the morning. My friend does real estate and he has already crossed Maduranthagam as there are no layouts that need to promoted closer to Chennai. Considering our rate of progress is expanding highways, before the expanded highway is operational, real estate develops and traffic congestion starts.

Apologies to the others on this forum on converting this into Chennai Roads nukkad thread. However, mentioning these just to indicate examples of developing roadways in isolation without the associated urban and social planning will have its own consequences as we are facing today. I seriously wonder whether we will even get to see Massa type expressway in and out of the city down towns.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2015 20:50

chennai has expanded to tindivanam ?

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 26 May 2015 21:16

Singhaji
It already has, if you go by the real estate guys. In case you want to have some good laughter, watch the Tamizh channels in the mornings for real estate ads featuring actors from Tamil soaps where they mention the location as being very close to Chennai, a few minutes drive etc. )

You can also find out layouts near the Tindivanam toll booths and these featuring in the ads.

In reality, the urbanization has spread until Chinglepet with a flat in Singaperumal Koil atchaya gardens costing upward of Rs 70 Lakhs.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 27 May 2015 10:07

PEs, wealth funds may get to buy stakes in highway projects

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 May 2015 15:29

Singha wrote:chennai has expanded to tindivanam ?

I heard some persons from North India who have gotten jobs in Mahindra city prefer to do a 70KM one way commute and stay in Tindivanam, so that they can spend their weekends in Puducherry.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 27 May 2015 16:14

Aditya_V wrote:
Singha wrote:chennai has expanded to tindivanam ?
I heard some persons from North India who have gotten jobs in Mahindra city prefer to do a 70KM one way commute and stay in Tindivanam, so that they can spend their weekends in Puducherry.

The cost benefit ratio works in its favour only if you are planning to live on liquid diet during those two days!

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 09 Jun 2015 10:07

5 things to know about Mumbai's coastal road

2. The project envisages a 35-km road from Nariman Point to Kandivli, and the Metro III Colaba-Bandra-Seepz corridor will integrated with it. The project includes road construction on 10 km of land reclaimed for the purpose, and will house two 3.5-km submarine tunnels as well.

Since the project is executed by a Dutch company, I hope GrinPiss does not find any faults in it.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Jun 2015 15:24

Bet she will get away scot free, didnt know Indian muslims had a surname "MODI"

2 Dead After Woman Lawyer, Allegedly Drunk, Rams Speeding Audi Into Taxi in Mumbai

Ms Gadkar, who is a Vice President (Legal) with Reliance Industries Limited, has been booked for culpable homicide not amounting to murder and for rash driving, the senior policeman said. Other charges, he said, could be added after investigation.

Imran Modi, a relative of one of the people killed told NDTV, "Yesterday, we were celebrating the board exam results of a member of the family. Today we are in grief due to someone else's recklessness.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jun 2015 16:04

35 yrs old only, VP legal in a big industrial group, audi Q3 (33L).....must be a well connected rich brat.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Jun 2015 18:06

safety can be only improved by providing services infrastructure.. on TN highways, I see bus stands, daabas, tea shops, p!ss stops, et al are just adjacent to speeding roads. diversions, extensions, and separate lane leading ramps to service points are important. shoulders to all roads must follow min standards. [just saying by only one trip from CBE to pondi, all the way bad roads, except nearing pondi..couple of years back]

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2015 12:59

https://www.facebook.com/deccan.herald1 ... =1&theater

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 19 Jun 2015 14:36

Singha wrote:https://www.facebook.com/deccan.herald1 ... =1&theater

In Vadodara, Gujarat, you do not need artists for such visuals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnRA74AOk5w

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2015 15:46

looks fierce. would hate to have it chew up someone's groin. a disturbed man in a taiwan zoo got his hand cut clean off by a evil looking specimen. in 2007...lacking incisor and canine teeth, they clamp shut and twist repeatedly to shear and tear flesh off...."wise and ancient creatures" ... to be respected for their survivalist skills.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mq3f ... roc001.jpg

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Jun 2015 15:58

How bad is the Road collection Drive in Karnataka. Are they really tearing up toll receipts and removing air from stationary cars which dont Have KA registration?

Last month when I was in BR hills some kids whose families had come from Bengaluru were pointing at my Car and saying TN registration and talking as it is some sort of crime and dodging the law, when I was tourist for 2 days. Is it being turned into a Kannadigaa Vs Non Kannadiga issue.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jun 2015 18:23

naw uttarkhand and HR regn cars I see insolently roaming around as usual.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 Jun 2015 18:40

Aditya_V wrote:How bad is the Road collection Drive in Karnataka. Are they really tearing up toll receipts and removing air from stationary cars which dont Have KA registration?

Last month when I was in BR hills some kids whose families had come from Bengaluru were pointing at my Car and saying TN registration and talking as it is some sort of crime and dodging the law, when I was tourist for 2 days. Is it being turned into a Kannadigaa Vs Non Kannadiga issue.

My experience for past more than one year in BLR is, Traffic cops don't bother much about out-of-Karnataka vehicles. I have seen a drive to nab such vehicles only once. I have non-KA vehicle and I have been fined once (not for registration some other petty thing), stopped 3-4 times - the cops never made any issue out of registration (they seem to have some liking for Insurance document, always ask for that one in particular). Its fairly lenient, if you ask me.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Jun 2015 19:15

Is it true that if we move to another state, paying the state's road tax is sufficient without having to change the vehicle registration?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 23 Jun 2015 20:11

Karthik S wrote:Is it true that if we move to another state, paying the state's road tax is sufficient without having to change the vehicle registration?

That is what they asked me to do in Mumbai, I am not sure of Karnataka.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 23 Jun 2015 20:23

Karthik S wrote:Is it true that if we move to another state, paying the state's road tax is sufficient without having to change the vehicle registration?

1. Traffic Police is not focusing on the tax collection. It is the RTO. There was a stay order on the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act, which is now vacated. RTO squads are back in action.
2. Bangalore RTO is happy if you pay the Life Time Tax, and they would issue the receipts etc. But there is a catch, they will not allow claims for refund if you plan to take your vehicle back to any other state. For claiming a tax refund, a KA vehicle registration is a must.
3. Generally toll receipts etc. should be sufficient. The RTO squads generally lay their ambush in areas where chances of tourist vehicles are very less.

The planned National Road Transport Safety Bill envisages a one time tax collection, with states having a computerized system to share the taxes (in case the vehicles get moved). Kerala and Karnataka have opposed this provision in the safety bill.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 23 Jun 2015 20:33

Is the tax much Higher in Bengluru or something? Just curious.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 23 Jun 2015 20:39

Fantastic new technology from Samsung. Vehicles you can see through.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jun 2015 21:09

unaffordable.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Jun 2015 21:24

Singha wrote:looks fierce. would hate to have it chew up someone's groin. a disturbed man in a taiwan zoo got his hand cut clean off by a evil looking specimen. in 2007...lacking incisor and canine teeth, they clamp shut and twist repeatedly to shear and tear flesh off...."wise and ancient creatures" ... to be respected for their survivalist skills.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mq3f ... roc001.jpg

His biggest fears -

1. Alligators
2. Crocodiles
3. Brain Aneurysm

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Jun 2015 09:55

Theo_Fidel wrote:Is the tax much Higher in Bengluru or something? Just curious.

Very much so, Higher VAT and Higher life time tax means that cars in Karnataka are about 10-12% more costly than NCR and about 5% more than TN.

IN States like WB where they allow 5 year tax before taking on road, the differential with Karnataka should be huge.

No car Manufacturer will advertise with Ex showroom Mumbai or Bengaluru. OTR in Bengaluru is just a loot to fill the coffers of state Govt.

India depending on the model for Indian Manufactured cars tax in the form Customs Duty, Excise, VAT, Life Tax, Service tax on Insurance etc. costs between 40% - 60% of a Cars cost.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Jun 2015 12:55

Quick question to Sachin- going through Team-bhp forums are you the person posting as SachinPK there?