Artillery: News & Discussion

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 14 May 2015 04:29

Singha wrote:I figure the kalyani soln would have been cheaper if they considered it. the mandus group which provided the technology maintains the M198 guns for us army.

Singha ji:

Just because the M777 has been ordered, it does not mean the Kalyani gun will not be.

I think the Kalyani gun will be ordered when it is ready, tested and accepted by the army.

In the meantime, the window on the M777 was closing, hence the order. BAe sweetened the deal by offering to assemble in India. Depending upon who they choose as their Indian partner (my guess is that it will be Mahindra), you will develop skills and capability over time. It will also lay the Bofors' ghost to rest forever, by letting its successor in through the backdoor.

The mountains can absorb both the M777 and the Kalyani gun.

JMHO

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2015 09:02

though I am no mil expert, I figure a mechanized attack presents a complex moving target in a small time window in which it can be targeted before they break through and disperse widely in our rear. so the ability to quickly co-ordinate say 48 guns in range for a MRSI fire mission is paramount and hence all the best howitzers have a salvo fire "berserk/melee combat" mode in which they can unleash 12-15 rounds within one minute just once before cooling down and use trajectory selection and different charges to have them land nearly at same time. extra bonus is if intelligent submunitions like skeet can be delivered else contact HE.

the M777 with its ponderous manual crew and no automation to save weight sounds like the kind of gun you have to periodically fire a round or two to keep good taliban/bush militia at bay. for the real serious stuff the US army has MASSES of M198 SP guns....something like 150-200 were attached to the oversized corps that marched through western desert to baghdad in OIF.

mody · Post by **mody** » 14 May 2015 12:21

20 crores for each M777 gun. Don't like this deal. Its not really going to give us a big advantage in the mountains that its being brought in for. JMT

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 May 2015 13:41

Rakesh wrote:Karan: There is a saying....you campaign in poetry, but govern in prose. Reality has struck our Raksha Mantri and our Prime Minister. No fault of theirs necessarily, because they do mean well, however they are faced with a lumbering, slothful & corrupt bureaucracy and industry that for the past 68 years has always lived by the mantra Chalta Hai. We SDREs are like this onlee. Dassault had to remind us, quite embarrassingly, that they have no faith in HAL's ability to deliver a quality product.

IMHO..Dassault basically did something simpler. I bet they got enough inside data from leaks in MOD on IAF to know that if they held out, the MOD would have to cave in. I wonder why exactly the MOD is not investigating how shoddily the existing documentation was set up that only Dassault could be chosen even after the data coming in showed they were not L1? I am now inclined to believe this was a setup once IAF tech trial results came in, a deal was struck by previous dispensation so that on paper they couldnt be faulted (but nuances were something else) & the D-guys just played a savvy waiting game. If HAL could make the Su-30, the Rafale would not have been that different. New processes and what not, but they could do it. MDL made Scorpenes after decades of not even working on subs.

P.S. It is not for a lack of will or technical know how (Tejas, Arjun, INSAS, our in house naval design bureau are just a few to dispel such a myth) but rather it is a mix of vested interests, lobbyists i.e. our very own Philip , and the reasons above to explain the present malaise. That combined with a healthy dose of Bofors which neutered us quite badly. We became impotent in our decision making because of Bofors. This is why we are still among the top arms importers in the world.

I have said this before and I will keep saying it. We need excellent project managers that can ruthlessly cut through red tape and people to stay on focus and achieve the goal. Bash on Regardless!

Completely agree. Arms imports are a nice way to make money & shills do everything they can to run down Indian interests and promote their respective masters.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2015 13:51

and even now none has tasked the OFB and other agencies to create a modern replacement for the 105mm gun.
that will be another $5b tab somewhere down the line. the claim is 105mm is useless and only 155 is kosher.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 14 May 2015 14:06

FWIW.....My paanwala tells me the MoD baboos pushed the M777 ahead of the more crucial MGS.

Real headstumper this one....I am lost how the good Deepak Parekh figures into all this....

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 May 2015 14:17

It could be that the M777 is the last gun standing with the Pegasus out of the picture. With the MGS, we still have to go through the selection process before the finalists are left standing and a decision can be taken.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 14 May 2015 15:13

M777 is purchased. Now the question is how it will be transported?

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1943.html
It can be internally transported in a number of transport aircraft including the C-130, C-141, C-5 and C-160 Transall. It can also be transported slung under the UH-60L/UH-60M Black Hawk and CH-53E/CH-53D helicopters and the MV-22 Osprey.
Now which is the helicopter in our inventory that can lift the M777

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 May 2015 15:40

Let not get into the Air transportation of guns business. It could work as an exception, but we lack the organic airlift needed to do it as a matter of course. The guns will have to be moved by FAT's.

The light weight of the gun could mean that it can go wherever the Stallion 4*4 can go. If the truck can tow 5 ton loads.

Other than that, I cant see how this will help the deployment of heavy guns in the IA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2015 15:54

M777 -> chinook is now a "necessity"

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 May 2015 16:18

No, cause the measly numbers that India is thinking of buying will not be sufficient to do the job.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2015 20:20

Karan M wrote:If HAL could make the Su-30, the Rafale would not have been that different. New processes and what not, but they could do it. MDL made Scorpenes after decades of not even working on subs.

I believe - please correct me if I am wrong - Dassault used the excuse that they use machines to fabricate the composites, while at HAL they still build it by hand. A pathetic excuse, if true, that we believed & swallowed hook, line & sinker.

Singha wrote:M777 -> chinook is now a "necessity"

Exactly! One compliments the other. A marriage made in heaven!

http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/i ... -47_lg.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects ... witzer.jpg

Pratyush wrote:No, cause the measly numbers that India is thinking of buying will not be sufficient to do the job.

These 145 guns are for Siachen and for the mountain strike corps (will that ever be raised?) in that order. I can guarantee you, if the MSC is indeed raised...a follow on order is coming.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2015 21:14

4:58 and 6:15 has footage of what mrsi can do - each pzh2000 can unleash 5 rounds to impact same point by lowering the barrel progressively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxvS7lEaZ3M

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 May 2015 21:43

I still shudder to see that loading process

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 14 May 2015 22:09

Singha wrote:4:58 and 6:15 has footage of what mrsi can do - each pzh2000 can unleash 5 rounds to impact same point by lowering the barrel progressively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxvS7lEaZ3M

The G6 is just as good if not better. Wonder if the Bhim project will ever get a restart.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 May 2015 22:18

Naah! Nothing beats the King...the Archer Artillery System.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ery+system

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 May 2015 22:38

Singha wrote:and even now none has tasked the OFB and other agencies to create a modern replacement for the 105mm gun.
that will be another $5b tab somewhere down the line. the claim is 105mm is useless and only 155 is kosher.

Most likely the 105mm will get phased out. Maybe given to Afghanistan etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2015 23:24

Surya wrote:I still shudder to see that loading process

one careless move by the breech loader could chop his arm off?

the korean K9 seems to have a safer looking firing system and a reload vehicle that transfers rounds using a probe .
holy crap there is some scary msri demo here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVdoBWBmUYQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oaR2jPGddA
around 2:35 it is clearly seen even the charges are loaded by machinery...clearly safer than the "guillotine" pzh2000 system though they might have a sensor to prevent that gate closing so long as something is inside.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2015 23:26

because of their automated loading systems the SP systems will have a much higher rate of sustained fire than even truck mounted types like Archer which has a small ready mag....a SP gun will have 60-70 shells and charges in-house, far more than ready mag of a towed gun or truck.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 15 May 2015 03:15

ramana wrote:

Most likely the 105mm will get phased out. Maybe given to Afghanistan etc.

Some 105MM guns will also be given to BSF.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 May 2015 17:53

Screw (together in) India

The defence ministry last week cleared the purchase of these 155-millimetre, 39-calibre howitzers from the US Department of Defence (Pentagon) for a budgeted Rs 2,900 crore, which BAE sources say could eventually be about Rs 4,650 crore.

The US-based BAE is selecting an Indian partner to assemble imported kits into M777 guns. This would be done in an “Assembly, Integration and Testing (AIT) facility”, using tools and assembly jigs shipped to India from BAE’s now-shuttered assembly line in Hattiesburg, USA

Chief executive officers (CEOs) from three of these companies tell Business Standard that integrating the gun at an Indian AIT facility would be worth no more than 5 per cent of the contract amount, i.e. about Rs 230 crore.

BAE has signed agreements with a raft of Indian companies to discharge its offset liability in the M777 contract, worth about Rs 1,400 crore. Most of this offset work is believed to be unrelated to the M777.

In March/April 2014, then army chief, General Bikram Singh, pronounced the M777 too expensive in a defence ministry meeting. Defence Ministers AK Antony and Arun Jaitley told parliament that the M777 acquisition was stuck because of high cost. Now, without any reduction in cost, the defence ministry has cleared the contract.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 May 2015 18:17

The main Q,why after Gen .Bikky S's statement,the requirement was not thrown open to pvt. industry by the former regime? The current dispensation has bitten the bullet as we are woefully short of arty,ammo,etc. on both fronts and cannot risk another "1962" with China. T

The problem is that there is no grand strategy ,long term planning which is executed in time whatsoever afflicting every govt. that we've had since Independence barring two periods when Mrs. G and Rajiv G were in power. Nehru was responsible for our disaster of '62. It is now coming out how he was more obsessed with keeping Netaji out of India,both in spirit and flesh than bothering about the threat from China. Mrs. G. flawlessly worked out a combination of military,political ,economic and diplomatic policies to defeat Pak decisively in '71,that too when we were so poor and when Pak had the full support of both the US and China. Many analysts have woefully rued that fact that our defence and security policies are reactive,firefighting most of the time. The arty decision has languished from the days of Bofors! Repeated trials after trials were conducted without any decision being made. We also as in the case of the MMRCA have no "Plan B",or do not want to have a "Plan B",forcing knee-jerk imports to be made.So in the absence of Plan Bs,there are no cut-off deadlines where alternatives are examined and urgent time-bound decisions made.

I was reading a report about the future warships/subs to be made in India in the future.The Scorpene dealy was mentioned..The current DM has blamed the delay on tardiness in getting components from abroad from foreign manufacturers,but the French blame us!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2015 18:26

Gyan wrote:Screw (together in) India

The defence ministry last week cleared the purchase of these 155-millimetre, 39-calibre howitzers from the US Department of Defence (Pentagon) for a budgeted Rs 2,900 crore, which BAE sources say could eventually be about Rs 4,650 crore.

The US-based BAE is selecting an Indian partner to assemble imported kits into M777 guns. This would be done in an “Assembly, Integration and Testing (AIT) facility”, using tools and assembly jigs shipped to India from BAE’s now-shuttered assembly line in Hattiesburg, USA

Chief executive officers (CEOs) from three of these companies tell Business Standard that integrating the gun at an Indian AIT facility would be worth no more than 5 per cent of the contract amount, i.e. about Rs 230 crore.

BAE has signed agreements with a raft of Indian companies to discharge its offset liability in the M777 contract, worth about Rs 1,400 crore. Most of this offset work is believed to be unrelated to the M777.

In March/April 2014, then army chief, General Bikram Singh, pronounced the M777 too expensive in a defence ministry meeting. Defence Ministers AK Antony and Arun Jaitley told parliament that the M777 acquisition was stuck because of high cost. Now, without any reduction in cost, the defence ministry has cleared the contract.

If MOD has decided to opt of M777 why not just go the extra mile and lic buid that in Numbers with TOT ...whats the point of having multiple types of 155 mm Gun ?

Are we going to end up with US type , Israel upgraded Russian Type another Indian Type and then Bofors built in india ......why not just standardise on M777 ?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 19 May 2015 03:46

So due to the Dumb-Ass policies of UPA , we are now going to acquire the same artillery system 4 years late and pay an extra Rs 1000 Crores for it.
Jai ho to the Paki loving Congress party.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 19 May 2015 03:58

Austin wrote:..
Are we going to end up with US type , Israel upgraded Russian Type another Indian Type and then Bofors built in india ......why not just standardise on M777 ?

We like tutti frutti. We are a diverse, pluralistic nation and we value one of each. E Pluribus Pluribum.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 25 May 2015 21:50

Army to get 114 Dhanush guns in three years

The Army’s quest for new artillery is nearing completion with the indigenous gun upgraded by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) clearing trials. The Army has placed an indent for 114 guns in the first phase and these will be delivered in three years, informed sources said.

“After the Pokhran fiasco with one barrel-burst, Dhanush barrels were tested in Sikkim under cold conditions and in other temperatures — and came out with flying colours. The Army is fully satisfied,” officials told The Hindu.

A Dhanush prototype suffered a barrel burst during firing trials at Pokhran in August 2013 which delayed the process.
80% indigenous

The initial deal for 114 guns is expected to cost around Rs.1,600 crore. Pleased with the performance of the gun, the Army has given strong indications of an additional order for 481 guns, sources added.

The Dhanush is an upgraded version of the Swedish 155-mm Bofors howitzers bought by India in the mid-1980s based on the original design. It is a 155-mm, 45-calibre gun with a maximum effective range of 38 km in salvo mode compared to the 39-calibre, 27-km range of the original guns. It is 80 per cent indigenous, with the APU (auxiliary power unit), electronic dial sights and a few other small items being imported.

The Army is desperately short of new long-range artillery, having failed to induct any new gun after the Bofors scandal. Recently, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) headed by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar approved a revised proposal from BAE Systems for 145 Ultra-Light Howitzers for mountainous areas under a government-to-government deal with the United States.

Additionally last November, the DAC cleared the process for purchase of 814 mounted gun systems through the ‘Buy and Make’ category to be built by an Indian private partner in collaboration with a foreign manufacturer.

-Ankit

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 May 2015 22:33

Austin wrote:If MOD has decided to opt of M777 why not just go the extra mile and lic buid that in Numbers with TOT ...whats the point of having multiple types of 155 mm Gun ?

Are we going to end up with US type , Israel upgraded Russian Type another Indian Type and then Bofors built in india ......why not just standardise on M777 ?

Better to have a bunch of local types even if a logistical issue from local firms like Kalyani, alliance for the ATAGS etc. The M777 is not a true shoot and scoot gun anyhow. We can standardize on the ammo, charges etc.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 26 May 2015 08:31

5% local content? Sounds like a scam. The private sector company which will get to screwdriver it together will make a neat few 100 crores. MP is losing it, first the Ka-226 deal and now this.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 26 May 2015 11:03

^Maybe the situation is that desperate (though I can't think of how these buys will really change that). Either way, its a punch in the gut for Make In India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2015 11:58

If the BAe plant is being closed down,then why don't we simply acquire it lock,stock and barrel and get TOT manufacturing 450+ light-weight guns in India meant for mountain warfare? Now that the desi Bofors with better performance has cleared trials and is to be built ,the OFB can also pass on the same tech/manufacturing data to interested pvt. players as well to accelerate indigenous production.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 May 2015 16:26

Philip wrote:If the BAe plant is being closed down,then why don't we simply acquire it lock,stock and barrel and get TOT manufacturing 450+ light-weight guns in India meant for mountain warfare? Now that the desi Bofors with better performance has cleared trials and is to be built ,the OFB can also pass on the same tech/manufacturing data to interested pvt. players as well to accelerate indigenous production.

A good idea. We need local production for mountain artillery.
@Austin: The "light" M777 will not be able to produce the same sustained rate of fire as the Bofors/Dhanush "heavy" guns. So, standardizing on a "light" gun only would not be a good idea.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 26 May 2015 18:06

Philip wrote:If the BAe plant is being closed down,then why don't we simply acquire it lock,stock and barrel and get TOT manufacturing 450+ light-weight guns in India meant for mountain warfare? Now that the desi Bofors with better performance has cleared trials and is to be built ,the OFB can also pass on the same tech/manufacturing data to interested pvt. players as well to accelerate indigenous production.

BAe, like any other big company, probably outsources at least 50-60% of the parts, if not more more and mainly does integration in house, apart from their core IP parts. So, you would still need to source all these parts from outside even if you move the factory to India.

One other issue is the ToT. The US government/Congress determines what techonology can be transferred. if I remember right, the barrel manufacturing tech cannot be transferred to other countries without its approval, which I doubt US will hand out.

So BAe is basically doing the same thing as we will do if we but the BAe factory, that is move lock, stock & barrel, the entire assembly/integration plant to India, but still procure all parts from its suppliers worldwide

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2015 19:07

the m777 apart from its weight is a throwback to WW2 model of operation, totally manual and needs some 10 people per gun.

if it ever comes in range of mounted guns with WLR support, it will be hammered and destroyed.

Kejri style shoot n scoot is the only way to remain alive

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2015 19:45

Drones are going to be all over the battlefield in any case,from both sides,spotting locations of arty,etc. The LW arty is meant to be airlifted to regions where heavier arty cannot be airlifted/supported. Q.How effective are WLRs in the mountains? Reg. the scoot and shoot issue,why light tanks with a reasonable main gun are also needed. The Russian Sprut amphib light tank (with extra ERA armour) could fit the bill.the IA in amphib ops too. Could also serve Other western light tanks could also be evaluated.

Protection of the Sprut-SD has a very limited. . Despite that protection can be increased with add-on armor and various countermeasures system. Vehicle is fitted with an NBC protection and automatic fire extinguishing systems.

The Sprut-SD is armed with a fully-stabilized 125-mm smoothbore gun, fitted with an autoloader. This gun is also used to launch anti-tank guided missies in the same manner as ordinary projectiles. This feature is common to all modern Russian MBTs. Laser-guided anti-tank missiles has a range of effective fire of up to 5 km. Missiles can also be used against low-flying helicopters. A total of 40 rounds including missiles are carried for the main gun. An autoloader holds 22 of them. The 2s25 Sprut SD has a rate of fire of 7 rounds per minute. Vehicle is fitted with a modern fire control system.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 26 May 2015 20:16

Singha wrote:the m777 apart from its weight is a throwback to WW2 model of operation, totally manual and needs some 10 people per gun.

if it ever comes in range of mounted guns with WLR support, it will be hammered and destroyed.

Kejri style shoot n scoot is the only way to remain alive

The M777 will be the artillery system for the Stryker Brigade Combat Teams (SBCT). The M777 is normally operated by a crew of eight men but can be operated with a reduced detachment of five.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ufh/

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2015 20:37

Excellent IDR review.Long feature,ck link for full details.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... ia-marvel/
Dhanush 155mm Artillery Gun: A “Make in India” Marvel

By Danvir Singh
Issue Vol. 30.2 Apr-Jun 2015 | Date : 24 May , 2015

Dhanush as an artillery system has proved to be one of the best amongst its class. A 45 Calibre towed gun system capable of targeting at long ranges incorporating autonomous laying features and having one of the most sophisticated suites of electronic and computing systems in the world.

…the success of 155mm/ 42 Cal Dhanush under trial is of paramount importance for the futuristic ATAGS programme.

It is important to place on record a little known fact about this Project Dhanush. It was started with a unique initiative from Lt Gen Anjan Mukherjee, an Artillery Officer, who was then Director General of Financial Planning (DGFP) maintained the need for in self-reliance in artillery capabilities. The visionary leadership of DGFP, who later took over as DG Artillery, resulted in creation of the road map for initiating the programme for indigenous development of the 155 mm gun during March 2011.

(*He richly deserves a Padma award)

A leading Indian daily “The Times of India” quoted the defence minister, Mr Manohar Parrikar when he addressed the parliamentary consultative committee on defence on April 21, that the 155mm/45-calibre Dhanush howitzers had “successfully met all technical parameters” during the winter and summer trials at Sikkim and Pokhran. He also stated that Dhanush incorporates “many improved features” over the Army’s existing artillery guns.

This revelation has created a buzz amongst the arms manufacturers and rightly so since Dhanush as an artillery system has proved to be one of the best amongst its class. A 45 Calibre towed gun system capable of targeting at long ranges incorporating autonomous laying features and having one of the most sophisticated suites of electronic and computing systems in the world.

koti · Post by **koti** » 26 May 2015 21:06

ShauryaT wrote:
Philip wrote:If the BAe plant is being closed down,then why don't we simply acquire it lock,stock and barrel and get TOT manufacturing 450+ light-weight guns in India meant for mountain warfare? Now that the desi Bofors with better performance has cleared trials and is to be built ,the OFB can also pass on the same tech/manufacturing data to interested pvt. players as well to accelerate indigenous production.
A good idea. We need local production for mountain artillery.
@Austin: The "light" M777 will not be able to produce the same sustained rate of fire as the Bofors/Dhanush "heavy" guns. So, standardizing on a "light" gun only would not be a good idea.

The requisite numbers can be built in a few months. Why buy a full production line if we don't plan to standardize a 39mm piece.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 26 May 2015 23:38

The article on Dhanush by IDR is exceptional. It is upto the govt and sena to make the most of the gun. For example, see how western countries prize their IP rights, and at most give out screwdriver tech as ToT.

Another example is oil drilling tech industry, wherein the exploration/drilling companies demand % of profits - indirectly becoming stakeholders by strength of tech and logistics, while still keeping the core tech rights all the time, and firm grip on standards and specs.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 27 May 2015 02:04

koti wrote: The requisite numbers can be built in a few months. Why buy a full production line if we don't plan to standardize a 39mm piece.

I guess, the expectation is ALL our mountain based corps could use this "light" gun, instead of just the MSC? So, Corps, 3,4 23 in the east and Corps 14,15 in the North should also get these guns. The ability to move these guns quickly to desired zones under the AOR for these corps would be a critical ability, when shit hits the fan. The more heavier guns, MBRL's, Ballistic and Cruise missiles can follow, where we have roads. Where there are no roads and this is a 4000+ KM arch, the ability to provide fire power will make a difference. The other unmentioned uses of these guns are for marine ops. Like it or not, we live in a volatile zone and the US will not always be there around to act as the global cop. It is high time, we have the requisite fire power and mobility needed to do some gun diplomacy, when needed in the area. This category is not to be a replacement for the heavier and longer range howitzers. This is about mobile fire power and hence many use case scenarios exist. The only other solution, I like is a slow moving aircraft with a howitzer!! OK, they have talked about this one, but do not think it is really viable.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 27 May 2015 03:06

vishvak wrote:....
Another example is oil drilling tech industry, wherein the exploration/drilling companies demand % of profits - indirectly becoming stakeholders by strength of tech and logistics, while still keeping the core tech rights all the time, and firm grip on standards and specs.

And well they should. Not only do they fund the tech and logistics (without any guarantee that it will work), they also drill at their own risk after competitive bidding. They get paid through 'cost oil' and 'profit oil' mechanisms. In this, they are direct stakeholders: they take all the upfront risk and get paid out over time.

Why would they want to share the tech and put themselves out of business?

Indian rules about O&G are interesting: if you strike oil, you cannot export it, you must sell it back in India at prices that are lower than international ones, you must treat any gas from the wells separately etc. This means bidders figure in these costs into the 'cost oil'.

I have been hearing about ToT since some guy at the IBRD coined it in the 1960s. It started with the idea that in place like India, the way to utilize skilled labor (R&D) locally before they became part of the 'brain drain', was to move low-end research to 'LDCs'.

I know a little about this: I wrote one of my papers on how ITT should do this but laced it with 'social' and 'moral' obligations

. The Chief Scientist at ITT was quite polite, even invited me to lunch.

Ultimately, this theme manifested itself in such things as the Jack Welch institute in BLR. I doubt however, their work ever seeps into every day Indian life.