Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

[Viv S]

rather than circus of new tender , why dont we just get DCN to create a stretched scorpene design with the rider it feature siemens fuel cells .... that would be a meaty lifecycle bone for the germans as well.

You mean capitalize on all the know-how painstakingly created at MDL over the last decade, investing the capital locally while retaining logistical commonality within the IN sub fleet? What a ridiculous thought.

[NRao]

Flight testing of the MIG-29K at INS Dega was on as early as late 2013,I watched them taking off and landing several times.Did not post for obvious reasons. The sqd. was "created" late last year.Here are assorted reports.

Indian Navy all set to raise a new MiG 29K squadron on the Eastern Front!
Discussion in 'Indian Defence Forum' started by Chanakya's_Chant, Aug 24, 2014.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 324556.ece


IN's own website:
http://indiannavy.nic.in/print/221

(f) INAS 553 Cell:- INAS 553 is likely to be commissioned as the first MiG 29K squadron in early 2015 . Post commissioning, INAS 553 would undertake the initial and continued training for MiG 29K . accordingly, to streamline the commissioning, 553 cell has been created on 15 Nov 14.

PS:The first sqd.,"Black Panthers" at Dab. Goa is Sqd.No. 303,now aboard the Vik-A.

All old stuff, found them during my first google. Everything I have found says - will be done (future). (And as usual you miss the "likely to be commissioned"....)

The question is are there MiG-29K stationed at Dega as we post - I have not found anything that says so.




Anyways, did find a articles to support my conspiracy theory. Goans want IN out of Dabolim ("IN enclave" and all) (they want them moved to Karwar). My feel is that the civies did not maintain a proper runway so that the IN would face such problems and move their planes that much quicker.

Other than that the MiG-29K engine still has problems which is the concern WRT single engine landing on teh carrier. Thsi problem is unrelated to teh Dabolim runway (an article that I can still not find).

[Gagan]

Not the ordinary goans, but the land sharks & netas.
The area around Dabolim is now becoming tourism center and a quick buck can be made.

Since back in the 70s there have been plans to have a big civilian airport in Marmagao, but no money or firm plan.
Now with Manohar Parikar in the Def Min office, lets see what happens

[Pratyush]

rather than circus of new tender , why dont we just get DCN to create a stretched scorpene design with the rider it feature siemens fuel cells .... that would be a meaty lifecycle bone for the germans as well.

You need to spend some time in the siberian labour camps counting trees, to cure you of your thoughts.

[John]

These western subs are exorbitantly expensive !!!

- Many reasons the firms like DCN need to recoup their investment since there is very little in local procurement to subsidize the costs.
- All the components are imported. Very little choice who we can procure the components and various electronics from for a submarine, which equals more cost.
- The combat management system which are exuberantly expensive and cost nearly as much as the vessel itself, that is mainly cause you don't mass production to drive the cost down and goes back to prior point of various foreign supplies trying to recoup cost and make as much $$ as possible.
- Then you have weapons and sonar which certain western manufacturers have near monopoly on, if you buy scorpene you have to buy exocet and spend 10 times brahmos cost on a 30 yr old missile.

[Philip]

NR the aircraft are stationed there.,have been operating/trials for quite some time as early as 2013.The sqd. number has already been designated by the IN,533. When the last batch of 29Ks are delivered,the sqd. will be officially formed once the full complement arrives.

"...are being deployed" indicates that the act is happening right now,instead of "will be deployed",meaning later.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/08/ ... ahead.html

With MiG infrastructure coming up at Vizag's INS Dega naval air station, new MiG-29Ks will progressively be inducted here ahead of full squadron status. The Ks at the Visakhapatnam unit will spend the next few years operating much like the existing INAS 303 jets served ahead of Vikramaditya's arrival. They'll operate from shore until the new Vikrant-class indigenous aircraft carrier enters service,....

Here is another report which indicates that 3 sqds. will be formed and based at Dab/Goa,Dega/Vizag and Kadamba/Karwar.

http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news- ... OIQ=[quote]
Navy to deploy MiG 29Ks in Vishakhapatnam
Thursday, August 28, 2014

India is planning to deploy the MiG-29K naval combat aircraft in Vishakhapatnam to strengthen the security of the country's eastern coast.

India is planning to deploy the MiG-29K naval combat aircraft in Vishakhapatnam to strengthen the security of the country's eastern coast.

The MiG 29Ks are being deployed in INS Degha near Vishakhapatnam and would be also stationed on the INS Vikrant or the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier being built at Kochi, Navy spokesperson Captain D K Sharma said.

India has signed a deal worth over Rs 10,000 crore for procuring 45 MiG 29K naval fighters from Russia and is the sole operator of these type of aircraft in the world.

The Navy will have three squadrons of these aircraft which would be deployed at INS Hansa in Goa, INS Kadamba in Karwar and INS Degha in Vishakhapatnam.

The MiG-29K, a naval variant of the MiG-29 land-based fighter, has folding wings, an arrester tail-hook, strengthened airframe and multi-role capability.

It can be armed with a wide variety of air-to-air and air-to-surface weaponry.
[/quote]

[Karan M]

Are being deployed.. with non working avionics, engines and hydraulics. Will have ...LOL...one day, someday..
All crap, as usual, trying hard to make MiGs issues disappear. And we are told by this worthy to buy these flying lemons to replace the Rafale.

[Singha]

without a reliable twin engine config and 1-engine ops and landing over the sea, the Mig29K cannot realistically function as a carrier weapon with -more- risk than a 1-engine job like naval tejas...which has the advantage of far more reliable GE engine that has done millions of hours on carriers via the F-18 fleet.

seems more like show weapon than a reliable and assured combat system that can be used anytime like hornet or rafale.

about russian carrier air arm the less said the better. they seem to have a grand total of around 10 carrier certified pilots and a small fleet of mig29k for training and keeping the kuznetsov nominally operational. the su33 seems to have been retired or sold off to cheen. their entire focus is on submarines and SLBMs.

[Austin]

From the soundbites that are coming out it seem IN is going for more Mig-29K

I post the news on Vikrant thread that IN is negotiating Mig-29K for new Vikrant and from recent news a total of 3 squadron of Mig-29K will be bought for 2 Aircraft carries Vikram and Vikrant and 1 based on land

MiG-29K Looking at a Bigger Role in the Indian Navy
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/12326 ... ndian_Navy

The Indian Navy plans to establish three naval aircraft squadrons that will fly MiG-29K and KUB. Two of the squadrons will be deployed to two aircraft carriers, while the third one will be used for training," General Director of RAC MiG Sergei Korotkov said.

According to an Indian Navy release at the time of the MiG-29K squadron induction, “the aircraft have flown over 2500 hours and have concluded armament trials of the entire range of arsenal comprising air to surface missiles, air to air missiles, bombs, rockets and guns. After proving in trials the aircraft have also participated in important theatre level exercises with the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force”

[Austin]

Indian Navy Prepares Maritime Infrastructure Perspective Plan
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/13043 ... WsczxY62yE

The Indian Navy has prepared a maritime infrastructure perspective plan to improve maintenance and operability of naval assets, the Chief of Staff of the Navy, Admiral R K Dhowan said today.

Addressing a press conference in Delhi, the chief said that the plan would be in sync with the overall preparedness of the navy.

While the chief did not give out any details of the plan, it has to be seen in the context of improving the battle readiness of the ever-increasing fleet of ships, submarines and aircraft which the navy has and will acquire in the near future.

During the past couple of years, the Indian Navy has been hit by accidents and maintenance issues affecting its ships and submarines which have brought the focus on improving fleet maintenance and setting up the infrastructure for such a venture.

With India’s medium term strategic imperative being to match the growing activity of the Chinese Navy in the Indian Ocean region, a battle-ready navy would be the means to achieve it.

The chief also touched upon the need to help Indian Ocean littoral states with naval assets when asked if India would be a net provider of security.

[Philip]

I am posting this here becos of the cost factor.Just $2B for 6 of the latest Kilo class subs for Vietnam,compared to the $8B being touted for the German offer of new U-boats for the IN in a G-to-G deal.In other words,we would get 24,yes 24 Kilo class subs for the cost of just 6 German U-boats! Plus the Kilos come with land attack,anti-ship and anti-sub versions of Klub,upto 300km range,which the German subs do not have. MPs statement about wanting Mercs and Beemers which one couldn't afford,in the context of the Rafale deal,should similarily be used in the sub acquisition plans for the IN.We are desperately short both in terms of numbers and capability of our subs and do not have bottomless pockets. Incidentally,we are also assisting Vietnam in training their submariners to operate their new Kilos,which like ours,have superior features to the Kilos supplied to China by Russia.

http://www.thanhniennews.com/politics/4 ... 44001.html

4th Russian-built submarine set to arrive in Vietnam next month
Thanh Nien News

Sunday, May 31, 2015
Vietnam’s 5th Russian-built submarine to begin trial run this May
Vietnam’s 5th Russian-built submarine launched
Vietnam building deterrent against China with submarines

The location of cargo ship Rolldock Storm, which is carrying the fourth submarine codenamed HQ-185 Da Nang, at 6:20 p.m. on Thursday. Photo credit: Marine Traffic

The fourth of the six Kilo-class submarines that Vietnam has contracted to buy from Russia is scheduled to arrive in Vietnam next month.

The submarine codenamed HQ-185 Da Nang is currently carried by the Dutch-registered cargo ship Rolldock Storm which is on its way to Vietnam.

It is docking at a port in the Canary Islands off the southern coast of Morocco for fuel filling.
The submarine is scheduled to be delivered to Cam Ranh Port in late June.

Meanwhile, the fifth submarine codenamed HQ-186 Khanh Hoa completed a two-week trial run and returned to Svetly Shipyard (Kaliningrad) on Thursday, according to Russian media.

The first three submarines named after Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City and Hai Phong, arrived in Vietnam in 2014 and early 2015.

The delivery of the sixth and last one, HQ-187 Ba Ria-Vung Tau, is scheduled for next year.

The six submarines are built under a US$2-billion deal signed during a Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung's visit to Russia in 2009.

Russia will deliver all by 2016, train Vietnamese crews, and supply necessary spare parts.

PS: In continuation of Austin's post,the earlier quote I posted indicated 3 MIG-29K sqds.,one on each seaboard for each of the carrier's operating there (Karwar the Vik-A's base,and Vizag for the new Vikrant),plus the one at Goa for trg.,given that the shore-based carrier ski-jump facility is located there.

If the idea advocated earlier,to give the IN a greater role of defending the airspace of our coastal and island regions by establishing more naval air stations equipped with MIG-29Ks and NLCAs,operating even from the A&N and Lakshadweep islands,it would ease the responsibility of the IAF who could deploy more frontline strike fighters on the Sino-Pak borders as the quality of the threat in the maritime dimension in the IOR for at least a decade will be much inferior to the quality of aircraft we possess (that is considering no threat at all from the US or any other Western carrier force whom we consider as friends).The naval air stations in our island territories esp. the A&N islands,should have full fledged naval air stations capable of operating the MIG-29Ks,NLCAs and even our large LRMP aircraft ,at least the IL-38s and P-8s and tankers if not the Bears.The Bears however have such an enormous range that may not require a "pit stop" in the A&N theatre. 2 more sqds. of advanced MIG-29Ks,upto MIG-35 std. with AESA radars,TVC, etc.would do the IN no harm given the latest Chinese pro-active maritime doctrine. 2 sqds. would also cost between $1.5 to $2B,given that we acquired our MIG-29Ks for just $32M each.NLCAs hopefully between $25-$30M each when they arrive. NLCAs could even be based ashore at some of the naval air stations which were former WW2 airstrips .

[Viv S]

From the soundbites that are coming out it seem IN is going for more Mig-29K

I post the news on Vikrant thread that IN is negotiating Mig-29K for new Vikrant and from recent news a total of 3 squadron of Mig-29K will be bought for 2 Aircraft carries Vikram and Vikrant and 1 based on land

Nope, that's 45 MiG-29K divided into three squadrons. Naval squadrons typically consist of around 12 aircraft. The French, for example, are also splitting their 45 Rafale Ms into three MN fighter squadrons.

[Karan M]

From the soundbites that are coming out it seem IN is going for more Mig-29K

I post the news on Vikrant thread that IN is negotiating Mig-29K for new Vikrant and from recent news a total of 3 squadron of Mig-29K will be bought for 2 Aircraft carries Vikram and Vikrant and 1 based on land

MiG-29K Looking at a Bigger Role in the Indian Navy
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/12326 ... ndian_Navy

The Indian Navy plans to establish three naval aircraft squadrons that will fly MiG-29K and KUB. Two of the squadrons will be deployed to two aircraft carriers, while the third one will be used for training," General Director of RAC MiG Sergei Korotkov said.

According to an Indian Navy release at the time of the MiG-29K squadron induction, “the aircraft have flown over 2500 hours and have concluded armament trials of the entire range of arsenal comprising air to surface missiles, air to air missiles, bombs, rockets and guns. After proving in trials the aircraft have also participated in important theatre level exercises with the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force”

Take anything these freaking MiG liars say with a bucketload of salt. At a time when not even a single MiG was functioning, MiG was advertising its succesful induction in Indian Navy in magazine after magazine.
Poor Indian Navy went by the trials pre induction. Post induction though, they have learned what the thing is.

Goebbels and Comical Ali had nothing on MiGs truthiness.

[Karan M]

without a reliable twin engine config and 1-engine ops and landing over the sea, the Mig29K cannot realistically function as a carrier weapon with -more- risk than a 1-engine job like naval tejas...which has the advantage of far more reliable GE engine that has done millions of hours on carriers via the F-18 fleet.

seems more like show weapon than a reliable and assured combat system that can be used anytime like hornet or rafale.

about russian carrier air arm the less said the better. they seem to have a grand total of around 10 carrier certified pilots and a small fleet of mig29k for training and keeping the kuznetsov nominally operational. the su33 seems to have been retired or sold off to cheen. their entire focus is on submarines and SLBMs.

+100
If IN could go back in time, it would gladly take fewer Rafales over whatever MiG-29Ks it ordered.

[John]

^ We have discussed that topic a decade ago, Rafale has never been tested for operations from a ski jump which would mean handing Dassault bolt load of cash for that purpose. In other hand Boeing already has its own facilities and did some tests and offered F-18E for IN. Regardless. On paper operating from a Skijimp Rafale greatest assets its payload capability will be far diminished and considering the price tag it would navy little money to procure LCA or even 5th generation fighter any time in future.

The only real alternative was F-18E which died with MRCA.

[Austin]

From the soundbites that are coming out it seem IN is going for more Mig-29K

I post the news on Vikrant thread that IN is negotiating Mig-29K for new Vikrant and from recent news a total of 3 squadron of Mig-29K will be bought for 2 Aircraft carries Vikram and Vikrant and 1 based on land

MiG-29K Looking at a Bigger Role in the Indian Navy
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/12326 ... ndian_Navy

Take anything these freaking MiG liars say with a bucketload of salt. At a time when not even a single MiG was functioning, MiG was advertising its succesful induction in Indian Navy in magazine after magazine.
Poor Indian Navy went by the trials pre induction. Post induction though, they have learned what the thing is.

Goebbels and Comical Ali had nothing on MiGs truthiness.

Those flying hour quotes are IN release

VivS check the vikrant thread the Indian ambassador says additional 29k under nego for vikrant though its known much before that

The Tejas is other option but for now not proven for carrier ops

[NRao]

45 is all that have been ordered. The negotiations are for the helps. Not additional 29Ks. However, if there is a url please post here, I did not find anything on the Vikrant thread, that talked of additional 29Ks.

Besides, vikrant is set. No idea how they can fit more planes on it.

[Karan M]

Austin, which is why I said Poor Indian Navy went by the trials pre induction. Post induction though, they have learned what the thing is.
The plane is a lemon. Sukhoi serviceability issues are a tenth of what the MiG-29s are and thank goodness for that.

[Karan M]

^ We have discussed that topic a decade ago, Rafale has never been tested for operations from a ski jump which would mean handing Dassault bolt load of cash for that purpose. In other hand Boeing already has its own facilities and did some tests and offered F-18E for IN. Regardless. On paper operating from a Skijimp Rafale greatest assets its payload capability will be far diminished and considering the price tag it would navy little money to procure LCA or even 5th generation fighter any time in future.

The only real alternative was F-18E which died with MRCA.

Discussing the issue a decade back? So what? We didn't know the MiG-29K would be such a mess.
Paying off the French was a better deal at least we'd get operational aircraft.
Anyways, the whole Gorshkov saga is one mess.

[NRao]

^ We have discussed that topic a decade ago, Rafale has never been tested for operations from a ski jump which would mean handing Dassault bolt load of cash for that purpose. In other hand Boeing already has its own facilities and did some tests and offered F-18E for IN. Regardless. On paper operating from a Skijimp Rafale greatest assets its payload capability will be far diminished and considering the price tag it would navy little money to procure LCA or even 5th generation fighter any time in future.

The only real alternative was F-18E which died with MRCA.

Prior discussions on BR have no meaning unless the discussion is current. The following from 2012:

Indian aircraft carrier enters sea trials as navy eyes Rafale

Russia has commenced sea trials involving the Indian navy's refurbished aircraft carrier the INS Vikramaditya, as sources suggest the service could consider a future acquisition of the Dassault Rafale.

Originally built for Russia as the Admiral Gorshkov, with a maximum displacement of 43,500t, the refitted and modernised vessel left Severodvinsk in the north of the country on 8 June for open-sea trials, preceeding its delivery to India in December. Once operational, the Vikramaditya will be capable of carrying 30 to 34 aircraft, including RSK MiG-29K deck-based fighters.

Sources say the Indian navy is considering the carrier-capable Rafale M as a possible acquisition, with a potential cost benefit to come from the air force's pending deal for 126 of the type to meet its medium multi-role combat aircraft requirement.

Already operational with the French navy and similar in size to the MiG-29K, the Rafale M could potentially be operated from India's future ski-jump-equipped domestic aircraft carriers and offer a greater operational capability than current Russian aircraft and India's Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas naval fighter.

India's interest in new naval fighters stems partly from China's ongoing test work with the aircraft carrier Shi Lang, which will be capable of deploying locally-built versions of the Sukhoi Su-30.

It also means that the MiG-29K is not all gold. Needs supplements.

[NRao]

"...are being deployed" indicates that the act is happening right now,instead of "will be deployed",meaning later

Cannot find a single news item stating that they are there. Anyone?

[brar_w]

]India, US set to finalise aircraft carrier technology agreement

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articl ... 05714.html

Would be interesting to see what comes out, At SGL, Carter specifically talked about Aircraft carrier (EMALS and ALG) and Jet engine technology.

[Karthik S]

Really hope work begins on Vishal soon and we can plan on getting rafales for it.

[Philip]

Given the cost of the IAF Rafales and the DM's statements (NR's post appears to be old news,one before the carrier was delivered to India) about the Rafale's cost,it is highly unlikely that the IN will choose another type in limited qty. which will mean huge investments in establishing the infrastructure,spares,support etc.,the cost of just one Rafale (at least $100M) is equivalent to obtaining 3 MIG-29Ks ($32M)! The IN is not that stupid,it will not operate 3 types of carrier aircraft,MIG-29s,NLCAs and Rafales,at least for another decade as a 65K t carrier requires much designing, the propulsion alternatives,launching system and what aircraft options a decade from now would be available and suitable.Once those decisions/options are in place the costs have to be worked out. Right now there is simply no way that a $10-15B carrier would be sanctioned,when there are far more pressing needs in beefing up the sub fleet.

In fact the last official news is that 3 sqds of MIG-29Ks will be formed.It is more likely that a few more aircraft may be added for war reserves,training,etc.within the next few years despite the sceptics' conclusions.

PS:Enjoy this X-posted.The Chinese don't like it when they're "Klubbed"! In the immortal words of Cpl. Jones of Dad's Army TV series fame,"they don't like it up 'em sir!"The Russians must be laughing as what they've given the Chinese are inferior Kilos and the armament that goes with it. The Viets are getting the 4th sub soon,on its delivery run,5th undergoing sea trials in Russia and 6th next year,6 advanced version Kilos for just $2B!

Xcpts:

Submarines: China Objects To Getting Klubbed

May 31, 2015: China is making angry noises to the UN , Vietnam and Russia about the little publicized Russian sale of Klub submarine launched cruise missiles to Vietnam. China wasn’t happy about Russia selling Vietnam six Kilo class diesel electric submarines in 2009. Russia and Vietnam were quiet about the sale of 50 Klub missiles but the news eventually got out, in part because 28 of the Klub missiles have already been delivered, along with three of the Kilos. Another two Kilos are being delivered in 2015 and the last one will be completed in 2016 about the same time the rest of the Klub missiles arrive. Vietnam is one the many nations in the region threatened by Chinese claims to most of the South China Sea and given the long (over a thousand years) hostility between China and Vietnam, there is understandable fear that, even in defeat, Vietnam would use Klub missiles for one last attack on China.

The Russian 3M54 (also known as the SS-N-27, Sizzler or Klub) anti-ship missiles can also be aimed at targets on land and that’s what really bothers the Chinese. Klub is now used on Indian, Algerian and Vietnamese subs and is considered very effective.

....Weighing two tons, and fired from a 533mm (21 inch) torpedo tube on a Kilo class sub, the 3M54 has a 200 kg (440 pound) warhead. The anti-ship version has a range of 300 kilometers, but speeds up to 3,000 kilometers an hour during its last minute or so of flight. There are also air launched and ship launched versions. The land attack version does away with the high speed final approach feature and that makes possible a larger 400 kg (880 pound) warhead.

What makes the 3M54 particularly dangerous when attacking ships is that during its final approach, which begins when the missile is about 15 kilometers from its target, the missile speeds up. Up to that point, the missile travels at an altitude of about 30 meters (a hundred feet). This makes the missile more difficult to detect. That plus the high speed final approach means that it covers that last fifteen kilometers in less than twenty seconds. This makes it more difficult for current anti-missile weapons to take it down.

The Kilos weigh 2,300 tons (surface displacement), have six torpedo tubes and a crew of 52. They can travel about 700 kilometers under water at a quiet speed of about five kilometers an hour. Top speed underwater is 32 kilometers an hour. Kilos carry 18 torpedoes or Klub anti-ship or cruise missiles (launched underwater from the torpedo tubes.) Kilos can stay at sea 45 days at a time. It can travel at periscope depth (using a snorkel device to bring in air) for 12,000 kilometers at 12 kilometers an hour. The combination of quietness and cruise missiles makes Kilo very dangerous to American carriers. North Korea, China, India, Indonesia, Romania, Algeria, Vietnam and Iran have also bought Kilos. The main reason for purchasing Kilos is that they cost about half what equivalent Western subs go for. Kilos are very similar to the world-standard diesel submarine, the 1800-ton German Type 209.

Posted earlier? 6 German Atlas-Eletronik TAS sonars for the Kamortas,with more to be manufactured by BEL.
http://www.brahmand.com/news/Indian-Nav ... /1/13.html

[NRao]

Math problems.

Given the cost of the IAF Rafales and the DM's statements (NR's post appears to be old news,one before the carrier was delivered to India) about the Rafale's cost,it is highly unlikely that the IN will choose another type in limited qty. which will mean huge investments in establishing the infrastructure,spares,support etc.,the cost of just one Rafale (at least $100M) is equivalent to obtaining 3 MIG-29Ks ($32M)!

OK, sorry about that.

Here is "new" news:

March, 2015 :: Indian Navy Submitted an RFI to Dassault about the Rafale M Carrier Capable Variant

Dassault Aviation chief executive officer Eric Trappier announced yesterday during a press conference that the French company has replied to a request for information from the Indian Navy on the naval Rafale M single-seat carrier-capable variant of its fighter.

India and France are in final negotiation for the procurement of 126 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force.

Indian Navy's current (INS Vikramaditya, INS Viraat) and near term (INS Vikrant) aircraft carriers are all fitted with a ramp for STOBAR type operations (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery). While likely capable of STOBAR operations, the Rafale M capabilities would be maximized with a CATOBAR type aircraft carrier (Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) like the US Navy aircraft carriers or the French Navy aircraft carrier.

Indian Navy's future INS Vishal might be nuclear-powered carrier with CATOBAR system.

Seems to me that the IN thinks 1 Rafale M = the entire MiG-29K fleet in the IN. Or does the IN have math problems?

No?

[Aditya G]

...The only real alternative was F-18E which died with MRCA.

The JSF marine version should be able to operate with minimum modifications to our STOBAR carriers. This can be our fall back option in the future.

If IN can order one more Vikrant class ship, then each carrier can sail with one MiG-29K sqn each supplemented with LCA-Ns till 2030.

The JSF would also be compatible with our LHDs potentially giving us 6 ACs at a time.

[NRao]

The JSF marine version should be able to operate with minimum modifications to our STOBAR carriers

The very few news items I have seen claim that the US is not ready to sell India that machine. IN has been interested. So, I do not see that happening.

[Philip]

Interest may be there,but when the "bill of fare" arrives, there's going to be a lump in the throat.Uncle Manohar has already made his views clear about the cost of the Rafale,likiening it to Mercs and Beemers.
Not that the good old IN should remain travelling in the Amby class of vehicles,but one feels that this "feeler" is to get a good idea of budgetary costs of a N-powered IN large/ supercarrier.

The Q is when is the next carrier going to arrive? If this query is for a carrier to arrive around 2025,then I too would agree that we need something superior to a MIG-29K. Here there are really only two options (as a Rafale-M would still be be inferior to a stealth bird).The naval variant of the FGFA planned by Russia for its future carriers (the IN should take a serious look at what is being planned since the IAF will get FGFAs t least by 2020),or fast track the AMCA ,launch the programme now and ditch the LCA MK-2,which is going to take "8 years" according to our ex-DRDO chief! It is going to be impossible for the Indian aviation industry and the MOD/IAF to support LCA MK-2,AMCA and FGFA programmes simultaneously,plus continue with other production of MKIs,Jag upgrades ,armed Hawk,and the other smaller projects that have promised much but delivered nothing thus far. If the AMCA is launched this year,early 2016,we could leapfrog the MK-2 and just improve the Mk-1 to the max,and save a decade of development time and money as well,using MK-2 funds for the AMCA.

[Karan M]

At least the BMWs and Mercs work as versus the Lada, the MiG-29 whose engine doesnt even start up. Even the ambassador was better.

And Abdul Pejkas, the roadside mechanic aka MiG, can't even fix the thing.

[NRao]

FUD.

Interest ............... in the ................... Rafale M? ?????????????????? How strange.

NOT in a plane that the IN actually flies and the MoD is still paying for. The one and only MiG-29K.


Thankfully Manohar Kaka is on another plane. He now has 90 Rafales to pay for the Rafale M if the M makes sense.

Coming back to the topic of interest ................... what does this interest say about the MiG-29K?


Devu bare karro.

[Singha]

>> The naval variant of the FGFA planned by Russia for its future carriers

^^

The Rafale M features a greatly reinforced undercarriage to cope with the additional stresses of naval landings, an arrestor hook, and "jump strut" nosewheel, which only extends during short takeoffs, including catapult launches.[29] It also features a built-in ladder, carrier-based microwave landing system, and the new fin-tip Telemir system for syncing the inertial navigation system to external equipment.[32] Altogether, the naval modifications of the Rafale M increase its weight by 500 kilograms (1,100 lb) compared to other variants.[34] The Rafale M retains about 95 percent commonality with Air Force variants including,[35] although unusual for a carrier-borne aircraft, being unable to fold its multi-spar wings to reduce storage space.

[Karan M]

>> The naval variant of the FGFA planned by Russia for its future carriers

^^

[Singha]

^ had to call it out ... that was not exactly the most brilliant plan.

[vishvak]

<SNIP>
Seems to me that the IN thinks 1 Rafale M = the entire MiG-29K fleet in the IN. Or does the IN have math problems?

No?

When Indians will have a naval fighter jet that very few can compete with, that time propaganda about something or the other will reach a much higher epiphany, and those who keep giving weapons to Pakistan will come out of woodworks in suits and talk businelish.. Oops, already happening! A step ahead, probably and far far from diplomatic offensive against Indian delegation in UN during Goa liberation or, for that matter, outright nuclear threat by strolling out carrier task force in the bay of Bengal - but only after genocide was crushed by the Indian Army.

However, have you ever heard that Pakistan is ever able to use its American supplied fighter jets when American drones are bombing terrorists or even during the most imfamous Osama-bin-Laden-hiding-in-Pakistan episode?

No?

[Philip]

Retd. V.Adm.Arun Kumar on the big Q,N-carriers or N-subs?
The good admiral echoes my viewpoint that a future large N-powered CV should have as he says,"The aircraft would need to be a fifth-generation stealth fighter like the American F-35B (STOVL) or a modified version of the Russian FGFA (STOBAR) planned for the Indian Air Force."
.He also advcoates building more smaller CVs and enhancing the sub fleet instead of putting all our eggs into one ultra-expensive N-carrier basket.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/150602/c ... -vs-n-subs
N-carriers vs N-subs
DC | Arun Kumar Singh | June 02, 2015,

The US defence secretary Ashton Carter is expected to visit Visakhapatnam on June 3 and then New Delhi on June 4-5 to sign the 10-year Indo-US Enhanced Defence Framework Agreement, and convince India to accept an American design for the recently announced indigenous 65,000-ton aircraft carrier, along with the latest American EMALS (Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System) and AAWS (Advanced Arrester Wire System), and operate the latest American carrier-borne F-35C jet fighters.

In April 2015, the media reported that the defence ministry had cleared various pending projects, including funding of an initial Rs 30 crore as “seed money” to commence project work on India’s next indigenous 65,000-ton aircraft carrier, to be named INS Vishal.

The Indian Navy currently operates non-nuclear-powered aircraft carriers, i.e. the 56-year-old, 28,0000-ton, steam-driven INS Viraat and the 43,000-ton, steam-driven INS Vikramaditya. At the same time, the gas-turbine-powered 37,000-ton INS Vikrant is under construction and is expected to join the Navy in 2018. The reasons stated for the new INS Vishal are valid, i.e. for an aircraft carrier to be viable, it needs to embark at least 36 fighter aircraft and another 12 helicopters, and this is possible only on carriers larger than 65,000 tons (INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant can each embark only 18 fighters and 12 helicopters).
A debate has now started about the need or otherwise of nuclear propulsion for the proposed INS Vishal. Nuclear power is expensive to acquire, maintain and needs highly trained personnel to operate.

While nuclear power provides natural stealth to submarines by enabling them to remain totally submerged in the ocean depths for months, a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier is visible and detectable by electronic and satellite surveillance as it sails on the ocean surface. Additionally, while nuclear power provides long periods of propulsion without refuelling, American nuclear-powered aircraft carriers still need weekly replenishment at sea (from a non-nuclear replenishment ship) of aviation fuel, lubricants, air armaments etc, and the same replenishment ship, needs to refuel another eight more conventionally powered warships every three days (these warships protect the aircraft carrier against various enemy threats).

In 1954, the world’s first nuclear submarine, the American USS Nautilus, was commissioned. It operated on LEU (low enriched uranium, i.e. below 19 per cent enrichment), and this reactor fuel enabled the single reactor submarine to operate for two years before uranium refuelling, and provided a total of 200 days sailing at economic speed.

Reactor uranium fuelling is expensive and time consuming. To overcome this shortcoming, the Americans gradually increased the uranium enrichment to HEU (highly enriched uranium, i.e. 93 per cent enrichment) to enable present-day American nuclear submarines and nuclear-powered aircraft carriers to operate for 25 years, without reactor fuel change. India does not have this HEU propulsion technology yet.

Apart from nuclear or conventional propulsion, aircraft carriers are further subdivided into three categories. The first is the CATOBAR (catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery). It is the most expensive and most capable (rapid aircraft launch rate of one aircraft every 20 seconds, while the other two carrier types can launch at one minute per aircraft). It uses one or more catapults to launch aircraft within a 150-metre deck length and arrester wires to recover the aircraft which land within a 100-metre deck length by using an aircraft tail hook to attach themselves to one of the three or four arrester wires.

Earlier, American aircraft carriers used steam catapults and hydraulic arrester wires, but now the latest 2015 American Ford class carrier will operate the new EMALS and AAWS. These two new systems, which are now on offer to the Indian Navy, require the aircraft carrier to produce three times more electric power than earlier CATOBAR designs. Ideally it would need two powerful nuclear reactors of the American A1B BECHTEL type, which power the new USS Gerald R. Ford, and each of which can produce 180 MWe. Unfortunately, the Americans are not willing to transfer nuclear reactor propulsion technology. As a result India will have a non-nuclear, gas-turbine -powered, but still very expensive INS Vishal.

The second type of carrier is the STOVL (short take-off and vertical landing) type that is the simplest and cheapest. INS Viraat is an example of STOVL, where the sub-sonic Sea Harrier jets take off (without catapult) in about 200 metres deck length from a ski jump ramp, and land vertically. The American supersonic F-35B is the latest stealth jet fighter capable of such short take-off and vertical landing operations.

The third type of carrier is the STOBAR (short take-off but arrested recovery), which is used on INS Vikramaditya (and also for the INS Vikrant under construction). Here the Russian MiG-29K or the Indian light combat aircraft takes off from 200 metres deck length (without catapult) from a ski jump ramp and lands in 100 metres deck length using its tail hook to catch one of three hydraulic arrester wires.

The UK has got nuclear reactor technology for its nuclear submarines, but has wisely decided that its next two 65,000-ton aircraft carriers (due for commissioning in 2018 and 2020) will be non-nuclear, STOVL type and conventionally powered by gas turbines. The aircraft selected are the American F-35B jets. These British carriers are estimated to cost about $4 billion each (the new American nuclear Ford class 100,000-ton carrier with EMALS and AAWS costs $13 billion).

Before India embarks on a new 65,000-ton aircraft carrier and its aircraft, it needs to look closely at funding availability (for aircraft, ship, spares, training etc), state of indigenous marine nuclear powered reactor technology, availability of indigenous uranium supplies (and whether our limited uranium stocks are better used for indigenous nuclear powered submarines), and, finally, vulnerability of the aircraft carrier to Chinese nuclear submarines and the new-shore-based 1,500-km-range DF-21D, anti-aircraft carrier ballistic missile system which may be based on Pakistan’s coast. The aircraft would need to be a fifth-generation stealth fighter like the American F-35B (STOVL) or a modified version of the Russian FGFA (STOBAR) planned for the Indian Air Force. To put it simply, India could build two STOVL or two STOBAR non-nuclear carriers for the cost of one nuclear CATOBAR carrier. The money saved could be gainfully used for indigenous production of critically needed nuclear and conventional submarines.

The writer retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam

[srin]

A STOBAR carrier seriously limits the payload/range of the aircraft and the AEW capabilities. It isn't that we haven't operated steam catapult carriers - our original Vikrant had catapults during the '71 war.

Orthogonally, the nuclear propulsion gives huge endurance and speed. The conventionally propelled carriers need to be refuelled every few days using the fleet tanker (which is typically slower). There is also a huge space freed in the nuclear powered carrier that's now available to store aircraft munitions and jet fuel.

Whether the STOBAR, conventional carriers are adequate or whether you want CATOBAR nuclear carriers is based on the demands on the Navy by the Govt. If you want to attack TSP from carrier based aircraft (like what Vikrant did in '71 war to Cox Bazaar, chittagong etc), then a couple of IAC class carriers are adequate. If you want to call the entire Indian ocean as our backyard and dominate the entire space, then you need to have deep sea autonomous fleet operations and that means CATOBAR nuclear powered bigger carrier.

[Aditya G]

...Whether the STOBAR, conventional carriers are adequate or whether you want CATOBAR nuclear carriers is based on the demands on the Navy by the Govt. If you want to attack TSP from carrier based aircraft (like what Vikrant did in '71 war to Cox Bazaar, chittagong etc), then a couple of IAC class carriers are adequate. If you want to call the entire Indian ocean as our backyard and dominate the entire space, then you need to have deep sea autonomous fleet operations and that means CATOBAR nuclear powered bigger carrier.

The limitations for STOBAR largely apply on VSTOL carriers as well. UK is going for VSTOL carriers and had opted for Merlin (we have three of those rotting in some IAF hangar) based solution where the AEW pod is suspended in flight from port side - crows nest.

KA-31 may not be perfect. But it is an acceptable solution within the limitations of a STOBAR and VSTOL setup.

For operations within the IOR, we should leverage the Indian landmass instead of building large & expensive CATOBAR carriers. Invest in a fleet of P-8I, A-330 AEW, A-330 refuelers along with comprehensive basing facilities in A&N islands and others acquired from Mauritius and Seychelles.

If we must venture into Indo-China Sea - why not with multiple, smaller Vikrant class vessels. Perhaps supported by long range missions flown by P-8Is.

[brar_w]

UK's choice with STOVL was about higher upfront cost for a CATOBAR and a sustained higher cost. They chose the less expensive option because they had the freedom to do so given that they fight under the coalition umbrella that includes strong partners in the US and the French. No one sees the Royal Navy fighting wars out in the open ocean by itself without the umbrella of the coalition, and in cases where they may have to do operations solo, the QE carriers with STOVL fighters are top notch given they'll be housing 30+ 5th generation fighters and can support them through RAF assets deployed on land. They do not operate them as STOVL on the QE but rather STORVL (Short take off and Rolling vertical landing) leading to improvements in bring back capacity. The F-35B can launch from a QE class carrier at its MTOW using the ski-ramp.

For the UK it was as much about operating 2 75% solutions as opposed to one 100% solution and NATO and the relationship with the US made the choice rather easy for them.

As far as emerging naval powers are concerned, watch the PLAN over the next decade or two or so, they'll be trying to move as quickly as possible away from STOBAR and towards CATOBAR and most expect them to be investing a lot of time and money into developing that capability.

[Karan M]

^ had to call it out ... that was not exactly the most brilliant plan.

Here freaking MiGs couldn't be navalized, and imaginary dreams are being spun about future FGFAs.

[Bade]

So there was an official CSL statement on this 2nd Vikrant class vessel and reported two weeks ago.
CSL offers to build another aircraft carrier

The CSL is learnt to have assured the Navy in end-2014 that in case a follow-on order for a carrier is placed, it would be able to deliver the vessel in just four years from the time of delivery of INS Vikrant, scheduled to take place in 2018. The Navy has not responded to the proposal yet. “A follow-on carrier would be advantageous for the Navy, as there would be no time lost on detailed design, development of specialised material, technology, honing of skills of the workforce and so on. Since the Navy desires to operate two carrier task forces at any given time, it would be a good option to exercise,” said a CSL official.