Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 11 Jun 2015 06:38

tsarkar wrote:Sid, was it you who posted some 8 or 10 numbered points many years ago on the cycle of problems in the NE? It was concise yet informative. Maybe you can re-post the same for the benefit of others.

Sorry to disappoint, it wasn't me.

partha · Post by **partha** » 11 Jun 2015 07:13

niran wrote:
Anujan wrote:Good article by Vikram Sood
http://thewire.in/2015/06/10/border-op- ... soft-talk/

to hide celebrations is slave mentality like shoo! let us not celebrate lest gora sahib is disturbed from his <fill in your act>
Sood janab is from the same Brit were best generation, time has changed Indians have every right to celebrate even mohalla kirkit match Indian ishtyle (with loud crackers Puja Havan Daan bhang drinking and dancing wagera)

No saar, he has a point. These are sensitive issues and publicizing the op too much puts friendly Burma in an embarrassing position jeopardizing future co-operation. Sometimes silence will say a lot of things. It would have been doubly hilarious if Pakistan had reacted the way it did without any official statement from GOI about this being a message to Pakistan. I agree media should be better managed.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 11 Jun 2015 07:46

Shiv, what is stopping from pakis launching raid, but call them non state, and then crow about Indian non retaliation as proof they are not Myanmar ? Isn't that what they do already

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 11 Jun 2015 07:50

niran wrote:
Anujan wrote:Good article by Vikram Sood
http://thewire.in/2015/06/10/border-op- ... soft-talk/

to hide celebrations is slave mentality like shoo! let us not celebrate lest gora sahib is disturbed from his <fill in your act>
Sood janab is from the same Brit were best generation, time has changed Indians have every right to celebrate even mohalla kirkit match Indian ishtyle (with loud crackers Puja Havan Daan bhang drinking and dancing wagera)

Can you imagine a scenario 10x better than what currently happened? I can.

Imagine this scenario. After the terrorist attack on Indian jawans, Indian DGMO picks up the phone. Myanmar commandos raid the terrorist camp, kill 50, catch 20. Indian units meet them at the border, get the 20 prisoners, get all the arms and ammo from the camp and the confiscated documents. Then they hug each other, celebrate, release a joint statement. That is what we should be working towards. Jawans train to win engagements, Chanakyas work on making sure that our Jawans need not go on such engagements. Vikram sood used to work for the Chanakya department, dont jump into conclusions about slave mentality to gora sahib.

I'd rather go the Chanakya route than the Pandava route.

partha · Post by **partha** » 11 Jun 2015 07:54

When someone like Vikram Sood says something, we should pay attention.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Jun 2015 07:56

Anujan wrote: Can you imagine a scenario 10x better than what currently happened? I can.

Imagine this scenario. After the terrorist attack on Indian jawans, Indian DGMO picks up the phone. Myanmar commandos raid the terrorist camp, kill 50, catch 20. Indian units meet them at the border, get the 20 prisoners, get all the arms and ammo from the camp and the confiscated documents. Then they hug each other, celebrate, release a joint statement. That is what we should be working towards.

While that would be ideal, its hard to ensure that on the ground. One of the main reasons touted for not informing the Myanmar military beforehand about this op was that they have factions there which are pro-PRC and would have leaked the info ensuring a failed raid or worse, an ambush. One place GoI slipped up was to reveal that the Myanmar military was not informed beforehand....they should not have revealed that. I am sure after this raid, massa will do its level best to drive a wedge between India and Myanmar.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 11 Jun 2015 08:06

Celebration or rhetoric or chest thumping is need of the hour. It sends message to enemy as well to citizens different ways. After seeing and experiencing 10 years of depression such action is needed and should be celebrated in public atleast for some more times until it will become norm.

-Ankit

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 11 Jun 2015 08:13

@Ankit The point was not that we shouldnt celebrate. The point was to intelligently celebrate. We can celebrate "Hey we went into another country without informing them and conducted an op, did we mention we raided another country? Repeat, raid was across the border. Again, across the border and they had no idea. Yay!!" Or we can celebrate "Joint and professional operation between intelligence, aviation and our brave jawans, who conducted a targeted operation, achieved all objectives and had no causalities. The operation was complex and involved cross border cooperation and took place across the border"

@Raja I agree to that, but we shouldnt have the opposite either: Making the Myanmar army look so bad that they inform us that their official policy is not to turn a blind eye for raids but to seek information beforehand. As I gather from several birdies, India had worked hard with atleast some factions in Myanmar army/civvies etc to (1) get them to not actively support insurgency -- [doesnt mean some factions arent sympathetic. Atleast they arent actively supporting them, like our neighbour on the other side] (2) Look the other way when our hands are forced to conduct cross border raids. Apparently this efforts was atleast a decade long and involved several you-scratch-my-back-I-scratch-yours rounds of giving taking. Anyone ever wonder why no Military Junta was tried for war crimes? Anyone also wonder how come they got boatloads of arms & ammo from us? No point wasting 10 years of work to score some PR points and some Jingoism.

Think about it another way. In Srilanka, there are two factions. One faction is our man and the other is our bitter enemy. Our man became our man after a decade and a half of give and take. Imagine we are forced to go into Srilanka unilaterally and do some things we have to do. Do you want to embarrass our man or do you want to thank him for his cooperation and help?

niran · Post by **niran** » 11 Jun 2015 08:16

partha wrote:When someone like Vikram Sood says something, we should pay attention.

of course i have been since he began writing articles in that whatisitsname magazine have read all his blog post including his replies to comments based on those is my opinion of janab.
@Anujan
India did not raid another country, India raided terrorist camps in Myanmar under agreement signed by both countries, difference of a she goat and a he goat.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2015 08:18

Also media messaging is to Indian media which is anti Modi. So need is to address troop morale after ambush and message terrorists everywhere.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 11 Jun 2015 08:21

^^^
Some A-holes actually celebrated with glee when Myanmar said that the border wasnt crossed.

They say a true patriot supports their country always and and their government when they deserve it. It is okay to not support the government or agree with it. It appalls me that they confuse the country with the government. The charitable interpretation is that they are cutting their nose to spite their face.

I saw this long back, vague memory: Reminds me of a lady asking a Navy gent where the causalities were from. The gent looked surprised and said "They were from India". Thats the difference between our news media and our armed forces.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 11 Jun 2015 08:21

The Major General who got out in front of the press said that the Paras hit camps on the border. Nothing about crossing border, informing people etc. All that came from Rathore no? The media just went to town with it and as usual added its own masala to spin its own story. So lack of effective media manipulation is the problem here.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Jun 2015 08:22

Anujan, I think we are saying the same thing. The op on the ground required secrecy from the Myanmar military and that was handled correctly. What was not handled correctly by GoI was too much trumpeting of the fact that we crossed over into Myanmar without their knowledge. That should have been handled tactfully otherwise even our pals within their military establishment would find it hard to justify their support for us. One way to repair this faux pas would be GoI proactively providing additional financial/military support to Myanmar on an immediate basis. BTW some factions of the Myanmar army are quite involved with NSCN(K) whether its providing arms, training or extortion, its not just some passive moral support type of thing.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2015 08:23

Anujan wrote:Imagine this scenario. After the terrorist attack on Indian jawans, Indian DGMO picks up the phone. Myanmar commandos raid the terrorist camp, kill 50, catch 20. Indian units meet them at the border, get the 20 prisoners, get all the arms and ammo from the camp and the confiscated documents. Then they hug each other, celebrate, release a joint statement. That is what we should be working towards. Jawans train to win engagements, Chanakyas work on making sure that our Jawans need not go on such engagements. Vikram sood used to work for the Chanakya department, dont jump into conclusions about slave mentality to gora sahib.

I'd rather go the Chanakya route than the Pandava route.

At some point in time Jawans or Officers need to be in the battle and be part of such operations. Just training them for the job is not sufficient, they will rear to go into action and not just be security guards for prisoners. Sometimes we have to do our job ourselves which makes the whole nation proud - including the participants.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 11 Jun 2015 08:25

Prasad wrote:The Major General who got out in front of the press said that the Paras hit camps on the border. Nothing about crossing border, informing people etc. All that came from Rathore no? The media just went to town with it and as usual added its own masala to spin its own story. So lack of effective media manipulation is the problem here.

IA handled its end perfectly on all fronts including media handling, its GoI which gaffed up a bit. Anyway no matter. The message has reached the shell-like carnation decorated ears of its intended audience, loud and clear.

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Jun 2015 08:29

Imagine this scenario. After the terrorist attack on Indian jawans, Indian DGMO picks up the phone. Myanmar commandos raid the terrorist camp, kill 50, catch 20. Indian units meet them at the border, get the 20 prisoners, get all the arms and ammo from the camp and the confiscated documents. Then they hug each other, celebrate, release a joint statement. That is what we should be working towards.

One of the news articles mentioned that India also routinely looks the other way when Myanmar army come into our side to handle their rebels. So, guess each country doesn't want to sacrifice their men for rebels of some other nation and prefer the other country to do the hard lifting with only a "24 hour valid visa" provided for them to operate across borders.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 11 Jun 2015 08:29

Arrey saars,
there was no gaffe. The message was exactly what they wanted to be conveyed. As for Myanmar's H&D loss, it can be soothed if they are really ruffled. The Govt. has been clear from day one. The movie baby is not a co-incident.

Anyway, its time Bhaarath starts acting according to its size. Being too mindful of feelings of a puny Lanka or Burma, is not always good especially if their territories are being used to train terrorists and insurgents who attack our people.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 Jun 2015 08:30

Myanmar operation: 70 commandos finish task in 40 minutes.

The surgical strike inside Myanmar was carried out by a crack team of about 70 commandos of the Indian Army who finished the operation within 40 minutes, leaving 38 Naga insurgents dead and seven injured on Tuesday..

The decision of “hot pursuit” was taken hours after the Naga militants killed 18 soldiers in an ambush in Chandel area of Manipur on June 4 and clearance was obtained from Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the night of June 7, soon after his return from Bangladesh, said sources privy to the details.

The commandos of 21 Para, equipped with assault rifles, rocket launchers, grenades and night vision goggles, were airdropped at around 3 am on Tuesday from Dhruv helicopters, just inside the Indian territory near the border with Myanmar, security sources said.

Once on the ground, the contingent of the special forces split into two groups and headed for two camps being run by NSCN(K) and KYKL, who are believed to be responsible for the deadly ambush on June 4, they said.

The teams trekked through the thick jungles for at least five kilometers before they reached the training camps.

“Each of the two teams were further divided into two sub-groups. While one was responsible for the direct assault, the second formed an outer ring to prevent any of insurgents from running and escaping,” sources said.

The actual operation (hitting the camp and destroying it) took about 40 minutes. Not only did the commandos kill those present at the camps in gun fight, during which rocket launchers were also used, one of the camp was also set afire.

Sources, quoting ground reports, said 38 militants were killed and seven others were injured in the strike.

Thermal imagery was also used to track the operation about which Myanmarese authorities were kept in the loop, they said.

Mi—17 helicopters of the Indian Air Force were put on standby, ready to be pressed into service to evacuate the commandos in case anything went wrong.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 11 Jun 2015 08:44

Anujan wrote:@Ankit The point was not that we shouldnt celebrate. The point was to intelligently celebrate . We can celebrate "Hey we went into another country without informing them and conducted an op, did we mention we raided another country? Repeat, raid was across the border. Again, across the border and they had no idea. Yay!!" Or we can celebrate "Joint and professional operation between intelligence, aviation and our brave jawans, who conducted a targeted operation, achieved all objectives and had no causalities. The operation was complex and involved cross border cooperation and took place across the border"

There is a reason why MEA secretary was in Myanmar in May and there is a reason why NSA going to Myanmar. As far Myanmar's statement is concern, they also have to manage their audience. No country can let their citizens know that neighboring country's army entered in our territory, killed terrorist and went back. In Myanmar's context we have agreement with them to allow hot pursuit in such cases. That is why GoI came out and said what they said. There are millions of mouth and so called sources every one has his/her own story to tell how one is going to stop it ?

-Ankit

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2015 09:25

Dhruv carries 14 troops. So could be 5 helicopters if Dhruv used.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 11 Jun 2015 09:48

We Indians have to learn to not bother too much about how other people think. Or to put it another way, to bother about how other people think to the same extent that other people bother how we think about their actions or inaction.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 11 Jun 2015 09:58

I do not see the politicians goofing up this time. No other govt functionary beyond his brief has opened his mouth. Only Rathore.

Rathore also told it only once. 50 different media houses mentioned the same 500 times creating the present cacophony. The message had to be given, no - ala LKA? At least once.

After 2 days when the dust has settled down - we see Javrekar, Rao Inderjit, Parikkar opening up but again everyone is measured and none is going out of the party line causing embarrassment to the govt.

In fact this one should be seen as an example how a responsible and efficient govt handles this kind of semi-legal but necessary situations without embarrassing itself but sending the correct message to all intended parties.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 11 Jun 2015 10:00

Btw, pakistan has done away with the plausible deniability for a long time now. More importantly, the whole world is aware of its shenanigans. So no point doing things in the hush hush and need to know basis and loosing out on psych-warfare.

Gulf war 1 and various colour revolutions have conclusively proven that nowadays war (both formal and informal) are won and lost in front of TV (no offence to the men in arm, that is off course the prerequisite). Using there brazen non-state actors and format state support for them, pakistan is following this policy openly for almost a decade.

So the open but measured political messaging has its place.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Jun 2015 10:03

How long Before Paki vacate NA/ GB and hand it over to Chinese Father?

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 11 Jun 2015 10:04

Unintended consequence, some dossier writers have lost their jobs and hence have enough time to come to social media to hyperventilate

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 11 Jun 2015 10:15

Minhaz Merchant ‏@minhazmerchant 29m29 minutes ago

Only 1 country reacted to India's Myanmar strike. Not Bangladesh. Not Sri Lanka. Not Afghanistan. Not Nepal. Just Pak

EconomicTimes ‏@EconomicTimes 39m39 minutes ago

Action against insurgency led to change in mindset. So much so that people who fear India's new posture are also reacting: .@manoharparrikar

member_27991 · Post by **member_27991** » 11 Jun 2015 10:22

partha wrote:When someone like Vikram Sood says something, we should pay attention.

What he says makes sense. A bit of secrecy and covertness adds a sense of authority and fear (at least immediately after specials ops) - something like Mossad style.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 11 Jun 2015 10:29

^That kind of thing works for established players in the field like Israel and Mossad. For us, having been hamstring, humiliated and hampered by congi rule for decades, a little publicity goes a long way in sending a message and improving morale. As and when this becomes routine, we will go into silent mode, where actions speak louder than words.

Hopefully, this will be sooner than later.

LakshO · Post by **LakshO** » 11 Jun 2015 10:41

shiv wrote:Pakis are butt-hurt enough to want to try and prove that they are erect, not limp, and may actually try something simply to show that India cannot retaliate and Pakistan is not Myanmar.

While action on Myanmar border was good, NaMo/MAD/GoI's political will be really tested on the western front. As Hakimji said above, it is a matter of time before Pakis get started on their monkey antics on LoC/IB.

The plan is to target some terrorist camps with 20-25 attack helos (gunships, A-G munitions etc), backed by Jaguars (for SEAD), Mig-29s (for CAP), AWACS, protected by Su30MKIs (for complete air dominance). No boots on the ground, though. While helis are delivering the goods, if any Paki ground based radar acquires a lock on any of our assets, the Jaguars can swoop in to neutralize it right away; if any F16s are scrambled, Mig-29s can engage them in BVR combat. All watched by AWACS and 40-50 Su30MKIs from a safe distance, of course.

This is not easy but I think it is doable.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 11 Jun 2015 10:47

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 11 Jun 2015 11:06

https://twitter.com/AmanKayamHai/status ... 7566081025

India's offer to tackle Kachin Rebels Helped secure Myanmar's support

More strikes likely, Doval to visit Myanmar for Jt Ops.

Looks like they are having their own problems and Myanmar is not on good terms with the Chinese. So PLA can't have too much influence with them. They need us, so they will cooperate in tackling the rebels. I think the revelation about not informing the Burmese before the raid should be seen in this context and perhaps it has some hidden connotations we are not aware of.

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » 11 Jun 2015 11:19

Belated Hearty Congrats to Indian Armed Forces,The Indian Govt. Keep up the good work and please dont wait till they kill our own jawans..

Please ignore if its not relevant. I was wondering about the timing of this news, that too just after the attack on our army, were they expecting a retaliation?
link below;
http://blogs.economictimes.indiatimes.c ... with-nscn/

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 11 Jun 2015 11:20

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jun 2015 11:29

MI-17s were also used,pics in today's papers. Great combat first "kill" for Dhruv!

However,we should not celebrate too early.The fact is that it took "4 days" before a response was carried out. That timeframe has to be dramatically shortened the next time,as such terror attacks will inevitably come from both east and west. Also watch for the ususal Yanqui reaction when we hit terror targets on POK soil;by the way POK belongs to us and that is what we should tell any running neo-colonial cur of Chinese chow-chow that supports Pak!

What we did not do this time was to have used the IAF in air strikes. This must be done next time.Forget about collateral damage if it is in remote areas,not densely populated settlements,as any "natives" will be the supporting cast for the armed groups. Cluster bombs,napalm have been used by Uncle Sam,along with depleted uranium in the GWars.

This is a landmark move by India,sending into the dustbin defeatism of the Snake-Oil Singh /Soniaji regime,who were wanting to compromise on J&K for a Munich style "p*ss in our time" with Pak ,godfathered by Uncle Sam. The last time we saw such bold action was during Rajiv G's reign where he acted immediately to squash the attempted coup in the Maldives and (ill-advisedly) sent in the IPKF into SL,though his intentions were noble.

The GOI should also have contingency plans for a future Maldives op,as the inroads by the Pakis and Chinese is exceptionally serious,with fundamental Islam making moves in that country courtesy the ISI.An amphibious assault to "sanitise" the Maldives should be worked out asap. Finally the Indian "elephant" has trumpeted and the Gir Lion roared!

PS: Not a squeak from the Western kept press! They don't like it when a so-called "turd world" nation
shows them how to do it. At the moment,the ISIS is chasing after their ghoolies!

Patni · Post by **Patni** » 11 Jun 2015 11:36

I think that since it was meant as a message and a "first of its kind" definatlive declaration of Indian intentions, the army wisely decided to ensure they dot all the i and cross all the t's before it was launched, and thats why 4 day preparation time. I like that for a welcome change it was civil goverment giving clear direction and wanting it executed as soon as possible!! I am sure they already working on to cut down the lead time required.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 11 Jun 2015 11:52

‏

@SpokespersonMoD
A Clarification: MoD has NOT issued any photo relating to Indian Army action along Indo-Myanmar border in the North East, so far.

Prestitute Pubby gets caught peddling old photograph as the real deal...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2015 12:04

PRC generals and associated folks are making a lot of money selling arms on the side to myanmar rebels of various hues.
their relations with the rangoon generals are not so great now.

saje · Post by **saje** » 11 Jun 2015 12:37

LakshO wrote:The plan is to target some terrorist camps with 20-25 attack helos (gunships, A-G munitions etc), backed by Jaguars (for SEAD), Mig-29s (for CAP), AWACS, protected by Su30MKIs (for complete air dominance). No boots on the ground, though. While helis are delivering the goods, if any Paki ground based radar acquires a lock on any of our assets, the Jaguars can swoop in to neutralize it right away; if any F16s are scrambled, Mig-29s can engage them in BVR combat. All watched by AWACS and 40-50 Su30MKIs from a safe distance, of course.

The above-mentioned "Santa Claus" option will not work with Pak-Chin and they know it. In fact, I think the very reason we have not retaliated against Pak till now maybe because our security establishment's mindset is always stuck with the Santa Claus option with the whole 'bells and whistles' and 'shock and awe' stuff. Instead, we should think of the "freedom fighter" option with small teams/individuals with a personal/communal vendetta using locally available resources to deliver 'pin pricks' when we need them to. I particularly liked the team used in the Bollywood movie 'D-DAY' -- a RAW asset, an ex-SF madcap, a femme fatale and a local 'nobody'. That is the kind of team which will come in handy with Pak-Chin and they will never see something like that coming from us. We really need to cultivate the 'unconventional warfare' option and I hope the current government starts focusing on this aspect.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 11 Jun 2015 12:49

RamaY wrote:Wise words Anujanji & KLNM garu...

This operation has different types of audience groups; insurgents, pakis, world players & Indians. More than anyone the key audience at this point are Indians for they need to be made aware of their innate strengths and worth. Hence the message, IMHO.

The friendly neighbors know our position & know the game.

Indian Media is worst enemy of India, more harmful to Indian Interests than Pakistan. They will never let GoI to manage the message, no matter what.

We must never analyze GoI or India using MSM-glasses.

I agree that Myanmarese officials have been nothing but gracious and correct in this matter. Their response to provocative questions about Indian "violation " has been a bland, "we are not going to allow any terrorists to use our territory."

What I am bothered about is that pakis are painting the whole business as Indian violation of Myanmar, and then using that to thump their chests and declare that, hey, you can't do that to us, because nukes. And they got a bit of help from us in doing that. Why should we help them at all? When the fact is that the question of "doing a Myanmar" to Pakistan does not arise because the two are not comparable. We did not conduct a punitive expedition against Myanmar. It is the paki belief in terrorism that makes them think and talk as though it was a punitive expedition.

Indian journalists are stupid. So they see the expedition supposedly into Myanmar and ask Col. Rathore a stupid question: "are you going to do the same thing in the west?" It is a stupid question because the country to the west is not a friendly one like Myanmar, so whatever is hypothetically done or not done in the west will bear no relationship or similarly to what was done in the east.

To my mind, the correct answer that Col. R should have given is: (a) the question is stupid because pakistan knowingly harbors terrorists and behaves like our enemy, totally unlike Myanmar and (b) if you want to know what we will do to terrorists coming from the west, the answer is that they won't be safe from us, no state hostile to India can save them, and no state friendly to India will try to save them.

The Colonel did say something on those lines, but he said it as though he believed that the media were intelligent and could figure out what he meant. But his implied belief (shared unfortunately by most Indians) is wrong; he should have spelled out plainly that, for India, Myanmar is different from Pakistan because the former is a respected friend and the latter is not. That would have given us ownership of the "pakistan is no Myanmar" meme, instead of pakistan getting to define that meme.

On a somewhat different but related note, we should take note of the continuity of the overall foreign policy, while handing MMS and Maino their due share of contempt. It turns out that the decision to maintain friendly relations with the Myanmar military junta, while simultaneously encouraging them to respect democratic will of the people, was the correct one. MMS government came under a lot of pressure from US SD under Hilary to pick a fight with the junta (along with Iran and Sri Lanka), but they resisted, and that is to their credit, considering how tough they found to do anything spineful.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jun 2015 13:08

Navdeep Singh ‏@SinghNavdeep Jun 9

Militarily poetic that the Addl Director General Military Operations who officially briefed about the Ops today is from the Dogra Regt.

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