Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Jun 2015 20:17

Philip wrote:Even Russia today,after the collapse of the USSR,will not intervene militarily on the side of India,though it may sympathise with us and provide emergency mil. and diplomatic aid. It may use its good iffices to try and stop the spat asap,as it has influence with both nations,but we are NOT NATO members or US military allies,as much as some want us to become servile neo-colonial lackeys again!

'Provide military aid'?! You were saying something about fool's paradise. Its nothing short of delusional to think Russia would risk China's ire by provide military aid to India during (or in the lead up to) an Indo-China conflict. And the same BTW doesn't apply to the US which is more likely to expedite all military contracts and probably even provide equipment and munitions on credit, if tensions with China rise and a conflict becomes likely. It may not be a result of altruistic motives, but so what? Still more useful than a Russian offer of mediation.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Jun 2015 21:03

Dega. Either, due to my old age, I have a ringing in my ear, or, someone is pressing the rewind button one too many times without reading posts/URLs. Anyways, old age has its problem besides ringing in the ear - #Experienced.

The last word on this topic (not my word) is that Russia has to get back with if the 29K can land on one engine. THE problem ................ still exists, not been solved.

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On "rescue", I recall Israel did in the Kargil war. The difference is that the war started and Israel "rescue"d. France, etc are already helping - as in past tense. Part of that "help" is the DTTI, among other efforts. Even though things have a very long way to go, there is a good deal of overlap to work with to get "help". Cannot say if that translates into "rescue". (What happened to #Expert, why so shallow a post?)

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Also, the more Chinese subs in IOR the better. Gwadar to base them, great. Never a dull moment in building libraries. Besides, the problem is never China in IOR, the problem will always be India in Indo-Pacific region (IPR). Decisions, decisions everywhere and no time to think.

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It would be a travesty if India is not able to handle her own issues in 10+ years. And, Russia has lost her voice. Forget the West, even China will not care for what Russia has to say in a conflict with India.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 13 Jun 2015 23:31

Besides, the problem is never China in IOR, the problem will always be India in Indo-Pacific region (IPR).

This is why we need to be very careful in naval reach, and not rely on any other nation. Wonder why center is thinking about missile tech control regime, since Pakis have got weapons regardless. We need to develop long range anti-ship missiles probable, first step with reach over the Indian ocean, then the South China sea and then to the east of China sea as well. That will also, for that matter, put a stop to pirates big and small taking ships to conquer India. It is okay if there are complaints, the Chinese as well are complaining about Vietnam getting anti-ship weapons from Russia. Such noise will be there always.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jun 2015 00:03

India has been working, for a number of years now, with the "West". Exceptions being Iran and A'Stan, where there are a number of differences. India cannot go it alone.

Secondly, prevention is the first option. China too is doing her best to get arunachal without firing a bullet. Creating options.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jun 2015 13:51

Read today's evenhanded statement from the US about Indo-Pak "p*ss in our time",mentioning b*gger all about Paki terror perfidy,unlike Israel which said a nation has the right to take action anywhere against terror entities. Anyone expecting the "West" to protect our backside is living in a fantasy world,like Alice in Wonderland!"

If Hillary Clinton is elected as the next US pres. ,just watch how India will be sold down the river to both China and Pak,just as hubbie Bill did!

meanwhile,here are some good reasons why we should opt for another Vikrant class CXV and why the hyped 65K t N-powered EMALS carrier is way ,way into the future.

http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2015/05/thre ... vy-to.html

Three Good Reasons for Indian Navy to Order Second Project 71 Aircraft Carrier

INS Vikrant model at DefExp 2014

According to The Hindu, Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) "has urged the Navy to place an order with it for a follow-on carrier of Vikrant-class." The CSL has reportedly committed to deliver the the follow-on Vikrant class carrier by 2022!

The Navy, however, wants its next home built carrier to be much larger than INS Vikrant; it wants a 65,000 ton, possibly nuclear powered, super-carrier that can operate heavy aircraft, such as AEW&CS platforms for more effectively protecting the carrier battle from enemy fighters and cruise missiles.

The Indian Navy (IN) currently operates two aircraft carriers - INS Virat and INS Vikramaditya. INS Virat's retirement in 2016 would reduce INs carrier strength to one. The Navy would then operate with a single carrier for at least the next 2 years, till INS Vikrant is commissioned in end 2018.

From 2019 onwards, for the next 10-15 years till the super-carrier is delivered, IN will operate two aircraft carriers. Factoring in the requirements for maintenance and refits, assured availability would be limited to just one.

The navy would need a third (reserve) aircraft carrier in order to operate two carrier battle groups, required to secure both the western and the eastern coasts. Reputed analysts like Ashley Tellis believe that India needs to monitor growing PLAN activity in the Indian ocean, which would be best done using a carrier battle group, not shore based aircraft.

A CSL official told The Hindu, "A follow-on carrier would be advantageous for the Navy, as there would be no time lost on detailed design, development of specialist material, technology, honing of skills of the workforce and so on. Since the Navy desires to operate two carrier task forces at any given time, it would be a good option to exercise."

Budgetary Constraints

There must be a good reason why the Navy has not shown interest in a follow-up Vikrant class carrier, and that reason could only be a tight budget! However, a solution to budgetary constraints may well lie in the inevitable project execution delays associated with new class ships in general and an ambitious super carrier in particular.

The super-carrier, which received its first budgetary sanction for design work during the May 13, 2015 DAC meeting, may not materialize for at least 20 years (2035) assuming it's nuclear powered, by which time the refurbished INS Vikramaditya would be heading towards the scrapyard. (Its 30-year designed life would end in 2041)

The following are three good reasons why the Navy's coveted super carrier could take a long time to join the fleet.

Extended Construction Period

INS Vikrant is expected to be delivered to the Indian Navy by end 2018, over 9 years after its keel was officially laid in February 2009. (Order for the ship was placed in 2002-03. Construction started in 2006, but stalled due to paucity of steel. It picked up pace after Defense Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL) and the Steel Authority of India (SAIL) developed carrier-grade steel indigenously.)

Clearly, a first of its class 65,000 tonnes nuclear powered, super carrier capable of launching heavy aircraft using EMALS would likely take 10-12 years to build.

Extended Harbor and Sea Trial Phase

The Navy wants the new super carrier to be nuclear powered. That would require development of new nuclear reactors and propulsion system. Harbor and sea trials of such a nuclear powered carrier would take a long time. Longer perhaps than for INS Arihant, which was launched in 2009, and is still undergoing sea trials 6 years later.

Mastering CATOBAR air operations

Air operations on the new carrier which will feature catapult assisted T/O will differ substantially from air operations on INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant which feature ski-jump short take-off. IN has no experience in designing a CATOBAR carrier. The last CATOBAR carrier that it operated, INS Vikrant, belonged to the Jurassic era of naval aviation. A new shore based training facility (SBTF) would be required.

For those who still think my construction period estimate of 20 years is an exaggeration, here is the clincher - What if Saint Anthony returns as the RM!!! Haaaah!

Conclusion

Make in India is fine, but how much sense does making a single ship of a class make? The IAF gets lambasted in the media for ordering just 40 Tejas LCAs, when it actually doesn't want any. Here we have the Navy ordering just one ship of a class that it designed for itself! And every one thinks the Navy is the smarter of the two services!

PS: Here's the latest on the mil capabilities of a key "Western" ally,who will swiftly come to our rescue! I can imagine them in my dreams sailing into "harm's way" to begin another "Opium War" with the PRC!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... [b]Defence chiefs: UK 'feeble' on world stage
Top military leaders warn Britain's military presence has been rendered 'feeble' against world threats

By Ben Farmer, and Tim Ross
13 Jun 2015

The military might of Britain has been rendered “feeble” in the face of threats from around the world, some of the country’s most senior military commanders have said.

Four former leaders of the Armed Forces issue a passionate warning about the decline of British influence, saying they are deeply concerned by the UK’s failure to act as crises grow in Iraq, Syria and Russia.

The four men — Admiral Sir Nigel Essenhigh, Admiral Lord Boyce, Field Marshal Lord Walker and Air Chief Marshal Sir Peter Squire — liken Britain’s inaction to the “appeasement” of Nazi Germany before the Second World War.

The former commanders warn that cuts to the Forces in the past five years have already “seriously undermined” Britain’s military alliance with America. Britain is now facing the real risk of being drawn into a conflict with an increasingly aggressive Russia in Eastern Europe, but there are serious questions over whether the UK would be able to respond, the former commanders say.

George Osborne, the Chancellor, has already announced that the Ministry of Defence will have to find another £500 million of cuts this year. Unlike the international aid budget and the NHS, the MoD has not been ring-fenced and further cuts are widely expected.

Cuts have left Britain without an aircraft carrier. The new HMS Queen Elizabeth will not be fully operational with a complement of F-35 jets until 2020

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 14 Jun 2015 14:09

I just finished reading the book ‘FOXTROT TO ARIHANT’ by Mr. Joseph Chacko.

There have been quite a few books about the Indian Navy. However this book is perhaps the first of its kind as it talks exclusively about the submarines in Indian Navy. The book covers the details of IN’s submarine forces in past (‘Foxtrot’) present (‘Kilo’ and ‘Type 1500’) and future Scorpene, Arihant and her sisters. Very informative.

Fortunately this is not a coffee table book with some fancy pictures and a fancier price tag. Quite economically priced at ~ Rs 700, it should be affordable by all the defence enthusiast.

This book reiterates that in the 1960s and 1970s, how the Western countries refused to give us their “advanced” arms and it was the USSR that helped us with their latest equipment. It was only when UK refused to give IN the ‘Oberon’ class submarines that USSR offered the ‘Foxtrot’. (A similar situation occurred when UK refused to give IAF the Lightning fighters and USSR offered the MiG 21.) The Western powers said that the systems desired by us are “too sophisticated to be handled by India”. Today UK offers the Typhoon saying that it is the MOST sophisticated aircraft for the IAF’s MMRCA requirements !

This books gives a good account of our submarines in 1971 war. As they were not in the limelight a lot of people (including yours truly) had always wondered what IN submarines actually did in the 1971 war. In fact the book gives a good account of IN’s submarine forces from 1970s till date

Some of the anecdotes, like a navy personnel having undergoing a appendectomy, 100 feet below the sea, are more than enough to give goose pimples.

One issue I have never been able to understand is the “size” of INS Arihant. The book says that INS Arihant is 11 m broad, 15 m tall and111 mm long. Consider the submarine to be a “perfect“ cylinder “Assuming” the submarine to be a cylinder of 12 m (average) diameter and 80 m (average) long, the volume i.e. the displacement of INS Arihant will be 8,500 MT, not 6,500 MT as mentioned in the book and several other sources.

A constructive suggestion to the author and publisher, the printing is good but the binding should be improved.

My suggestion : this book is a MUST read for all IN fanboys.

Kersi K Dotiwalla

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jun 2015 14:27

Tx. Kersi for that excellent mini-review. Will pick it up when one sees it. I have a buddy,Foxtrot skipper in '71,who has given me many a time his experiences during the '71 war.Unfortunately,our subs were under v.strict orders from HQ/MOD/GOI ,not to attack any ship unless 100% positive identification was obtained.One attack against a western merchantman, remember it was Cold War time,would be the trigger for the West/US to attack India coming on the side of the Pakis,and attempting to stop/rescue the Paki army in the east,preventing India from completing its task of liberating Bangladesh. They had many contacts/opportunities to sink ships suspected of delivering arms to Pak,but post Karachi raids with the PN in full retreat,barring the Khukri sinking,a holding strategy was employed.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 14 Jun 2015 14:45

Philip wrote:Tx. Kersi for that excellent mini-review. Will pick it up when one sees it. I have a buddy,Foxtrot skipper in '71,who has given me many a time his experiences during the '71 war.Unfortunately,our subs were under v.strict orders from HQ/MOD/GOI ,not to attack any ship unless 100% positive identification was obtained.One attack against a western merchantman, remember it was Cold War time,would be the trigger for the West/US to attack India coming on the side of the Pakis,and attempting to stop/rescue the Paki army in the east,preventing India from completing its task of liberating Bangladesh. They had many contacts/opportunities to sink ships suspected of delivering arms to Pak,but post Karachi raids with the PN in full retreat,barring the Khukri sinking,a holding strategy was employed.

Philip. You may contact Mr Joseph of Frontier India. I do not think this book is available on book shelves. He is also on FB and LinkedIn.
Kersi

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jun 2015 15:21

If there is a spat between India and China,BRICS will go up in smoke,BRICS Bank,etc.,etc. Russia cannot afford to see that happen,as the collapse of BRICS will hurt Russia severly.It requires the economic links with the BRICS nations to revamp its economy,as it looks towards Asia instead of Europe in the coming decade for its economic growth.This is why it will try and intervene (diplomatically) to stop any such conflict. For the US too,being dragged into an Asian conflict where another nation is sparring with China is a huge "no-no" for it,as it retreats globally.It can't even take on ISIS or Syria,leave alone China! As for the Brits,I've posted its mil-decline above.

As we take up more responsibilities in BRICS,Chairmanship of the Bank,etc.,and the massive Chinese mil-expansion on the cards,the window of opportunity for us to is fast closing to raise the level of our military to cast doubt in Chinese minds about taking us on,even with a Sino-Paki JV. The Modi govt. must immediately raise the defence budget to 3% and embark upon both much-needed foreign acquisitions,G-to-G buys,plus releasing the potential of the Ibndian pvt. sector along with revamped DRDO/DPSU entities,that can design,develop and deliver milware on time and within budget.

These "3-Ds" should be part of the "make in India" mantra. India has to fight its wars alone and be prepared for that task. The foundation of our military strength one must never forget is our Strategic Deterrent. This must be enlarged to meet current and future threats,along with the requisite triad delivery systems. The SSBN programme is crucial and must be accelerated.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Jun 2015 15:23

Philip wrote:Read today's evenhanded statement from the US about Indo-Pak "p*ss in our time",mentioning b*gger all about Paki terror perfidy,unlike Israel which said a nation has the right to take action anywhere against terror entities. Anyone expecting the "West" to protect our backside is living in a fantasy world,like Alice in Wonderland!"

Are you talking to yourself?

Nowhere on this thread or forum has anyone suggested that the West will protect us. I believe this ^ is called a strawman. It does not however change the FACT that Russia will not risk China's wrath with military supplies or intelligence to India, in the lead up to an Indo-China conflict. It will remain perfectly 'neutral'. The US on the other hand will happily do that and anything else it can to block the Chinese.

If I may quote your words back to you -

Philip on 30th April 2015 wrote:In an Indo-China spat,the US will be bending over backwards to supply us with weaponry,etc.,though!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Jun 2015 15:39

Philip wrote:If there is a spat between India and China,BRICS will go up in smoke,BRICS Bank,etc.,etc. Russia cannot afford to see that happen,as the collapse of BRICS will hurt Russia severly.It requires the economic links with the BRICS nations to revamp its economy,as it looks towards Asia instead of Europe in the coming decade for its economic growth.

Its only the Russians who're nurturing this hope of a BRICS supergroup to back them up in their face-off against the West. Neither China nor India (nor for that matter Brazil) holds BRICS in the same hopeful light. Economically, BRICS has achieved very little and even the NDB is only a tool for productive re-investment of China's massive capital reserves.

This is why it will try and intervene (diplomatically) to stop any such conflict. For the US too,being dragged into an Asian conflict where another nation is sparring with China is a huge "no-no" for it,as it retreats globally.It can't even take on ISIS or Syria,leave alone China! As for the Brits,I've posted its mil-decline above.

There is no shortage of countries willing play mediator (Brazil or South Africa would do just as well). Nor are India and China short on diplomatic resources themselves. As for the US, they'd be more happy to supply weapons and intelligence to India (nobody's dragging them into Asian conflict). Brits are irrelevant, eager as they are for more business from China.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Jun 2015 16:36

India and Australia to Hold 1st Joint Naval Exercise This Year

By PTI Published: 14th June 2015

NEW DELHI: India and Australia will undertake their first joint naval exercise later this year even as the two along with Japan look at the possibility of a trilateral exercise, a move that will likely rile China.

India, Japan and Australia have decided to deepen their ties in all sectors, especially in the field of maritime security, defence sources said.

The trio had held their first-ever high-level trilateral dialogue here last week which was attended by Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar, Japanese vice foreign minister Akitaka Saiki and Australian secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Peter Varghese.

While they discussed a range of issues, maritime security, including freedom of navigation in the South China Sea and trilateral maritime cooperation in the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean, topped the agenda.

"The three countries have agreed to deepen their defence ties with each other. Discussion on a possible trilateral naval exercise was held but no decision has been taken," sources said.

They added that India and Australia will undertake their first joint naval exercise later this year.

The naval exercise with Australia is likely to be held side-by-side with a similar Indian exercise with Japan scheduled later in September-October, the sources said.

China had reacted sharply earlier when, in 2007, the three nations had carried out such joint talks with the US.

Following the talks, Australia and Japan had taken part in the bilateral exercise between India and US called the 'Malabar Exercise', which had irked China.

While the US was not part of the trilateral discussions this time around, Washington is the main security ally of both Japan and Australia.

The US is "rebalancing" itself to Asia Pacific and is keen that India, Japan and Australia deepen their ties.

Following last week's meeting, Japanese vice foreign minister Saiki had said India, Japan and Australia are on the "same page" over increasing assertiveness of China in the disputed South China Sea.

Asserting that an aggressive posture was a matter of grave concern to his country, Saiki had said the issue was discussed at length.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jun 2015 19:06

Are you talking to yourself?

Making up history too.

Throwing everything on the wall.

Already stated - FUD.

Posting skewed articles (like the Turkey thread) trying to make oddball points.

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BTW, Dega, 2013, 533 FUD:

From Nov 7, 2013:

"The intention is to have air capabilities on both the Western and Eastern seaboards due to the growing security needs of the country. The first MiG 29K squadron has already been positioned on the Western seaboard at Goa and the next squadron will be based at INS Dega soon," the Naval chief told newspersons after the induction of the Hawk Mk 132 advanced jet trainer aircraft here on Wednesday, adding that some of the aircraft from the Goa squadron were last month sent to Vizag for training

Those MiG-29K, in Dega, in 2013 ............... were from ......................... INS Hansa, Black Panthers, Sqd 303 ............... with the bad engines.

Dega "soon" was 2015. Which is what is happening now - they are raising a new squadron at Dega (Degha) There are plenty of sources (on youtube too) that prove that the 29K sqd is very recent - as in 2015.

But, I have seen it, etc..................... all FUD.

________________________________

Meanwhile, as recent as within the month, the IN requested Russia to qualify the MiG-29K for one engine landing.

Because the engine still has problems

All that is totally lost.

_________________________________

Oh, BTW, DigitalGlobe (DG) does more than commercial work - I am certain.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Jun 2015 00:21

>> Oh, BTW, DigitalGlobe (DG) does more than commercial work - I am certain.

context ????

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jun 2015 01:28

On cell, so cannot link etc.

The article that showed the 29Ks at Dega claimed that the 29Ks were not there in DG pics in March. Implying that these planes had arrived since then.

The context was set when a post stated that DG was "commercial", which I took to mean that the pics they provided were not reliable.

First of all DG is not all commercial. You can rent their sats too

and they will not ask questions (SD may). And, their commercial pics are very reliable.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 15 Jun 2015 07:27

>> You can rent their sats too

but that's also commercial onlee, no ?

but it's true, not only do they provide imagery, they also have some neat applications whose output they have started peddling.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Jun 2015 09:27

I don't understand the repeated nitpicking.I personally watched the MIGs exercising at Dega over a year ago,in late 2013.The aircraft have been there for some time,not just on the day when a sat spotted them! Also remember that there was a massive cyclone that hit Vizag a year ago destroying the civil terminal building with considerable damage to the airport/airfield infrastructure. The aircraft would've been flown out of Dega before the cyclone hit and returned after the damage to the airfield/infrastructure was repaired. The IN has also given the sqd. no,533.Once the full complement of aircraft arrive,the sqd. will be formally commissioned. The carrier,Vik-A has spent over a year exercising,working its MIGs for over 200 days at sea,according to open sources. After a year's experience of operating a new aircraft,of course the IN would give its feedback to the manufacturer ,as the aircraft comes with warrantys.etc.

PS:I was talking v.recently with a def. xpt. of the capital in the know of things,reg. the large N-powered CV,etc. He said that there was general skepticism amongst the analysts about such a venture,which the US is pushing v.hard because of the facts we've been debating on BRF. It is simply unaffordable ,will eat up an enormous amt. of the def. budget,carriers are still vulnerable to sub attacks,and will take years to decide upon,develop the tech for a N-reactor,then travel though MOD babudom and the beancounter dept.,and if it arrives will be around 2030 or so say the xpts. The emphasis they say should be on the sub fleet,which is in dire straits. The second upgrade of Kilos will also only extend these 25+ yr old subs by at the most another decade.New subs are urgently called for,but where will they come from? Even another Akula-2 lease is insufficient and all modern Western subs are v.expensive. There are hints about firefighting options but let's wait and see what develops. The stark truth is that there is little money in the kitty,going to affect all 3 services badly . It's going to be sellotape,adhesive and string,to hold together vintage eqpt.,the usual Indian fall-back position when govts. fail to deliver urgently needed replacements for obsolete fighting eqpt. in time.

PS:Def ties with Oz.The land of Oz has in the past harboured eep jealousy and envy of India. It is a strong bastion of racial prejudice,which from time to time exposes itself. It si the fear of China that is driving these countries,who have def. ties with the US/West towards India,hoping that India will as it did in WW1 and WW2,provide much cannon fodder when the balloon goes up. I ask the Q,what would India's stand be if there is a spat between Oz,Japan,SoKo,etc. with China? Are we supposed to rush to the aid of any of these countries and invite trouble? Secondly,even if these countries are willing to assist us,in what form would it come? Barring intel assistance,we can expect nothing more.The hard fighting will and has to be done by India alone. That is what we must prepare for. japan must also start defending itself independently,relying less upon the US as time goes by.It should go nuclear to ward off both China and NoKo. As long as it remains a non-Nuclear state,China will not respect it.

The Clinton US establishment connived with China allowing Pak to become a WMD state,now providing the Saudis with N-weapons. It should be much easier for it to look the other way while japan gets its nukes!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Jun 2015 05:26

Filed under:

will rush to rescue us in any spat with China is living in a fool's paradise

June 4, 2015 :; China tests new waters

As an Intro:

On March 31 this year, China's deadliest conventional submarine set sail from its base on Hainan island in the South China Sea. The Yuan-class submarine '335', equipped with torpedoes, anti-ship missiles and an air-independent pro-pulsion that dramatically enhances its underwater endurance, entered the Gulf of Aden over a fortnight later. But it was 335's first port of call that caught the attention of the security establishment in South Block. On May 22, less than a week after Prime Minister Narendra Modi wrapped up a state visit to Beijing, the steel shark pulled into Karachi port. Government sources confirmed to INDIA TODAY that submarine 335 spent a week on an 'Operational Turn Around' in Karachi, military-speak for refuelling and restocking the submarine and resting its 65-man crew.

On May 28, Navy chief Admiral R.K. Dhowan told reporters in New Delhi that India was "minutely" monitoring Chinese naval activity in the Indian Ocean. He signalled the start of a new great game over the world's most important water body. If the Cold War was about NATO snooping on the Soviet Navy in the Atlantic Ocean, the 21st century is about countries keeping tabs on the Chinese navy's expanding presence through the Asia-Pacific.

Point being:

It is a surveillance game where India is assisted by the United States, whose 2011 strategic rebalance towards Asia-Pacific was prompted by China's blue water ambitions. Last December, the US passed on intelligence after its drones spotted a Chinese Han-class nuclear-powered attack submarine "running on the surface" in the Gulf of Aden. Submarine 335 was likely a result of this collaboration although Indian officials declined to confirm this.

Naval cooperation is one of the cornerstones of the 10-year defence framework agreement signed between US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter and his counterpart Manohar Parrikar in New Delhi on June 3. Significantly, Carter began his trip with a visit to the Navy's eastern naval command base in Visakhapatnam, key to its "Act East" policy

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jun 2015 11:47

It's exactly what I said,with reference to Oz too,barring intel and maybe ammo,spares,etc.,nothing more.To imagine that the USN will come out swinging and waving its arms against China is a wet dream! Plus don't think that we get nothing from the Russians.They've give us the kind of tech which no other nation has.Just add up the list and compare what we've recd. from Russia and the US/West . Intel relations with Russia aren't publicized unlike one example from the US,and the Chinese sub in Q was supposed to have surfaced!

However,our new "friends" could certainly cement ties further by regular doses of intel reg. the movements of the PLAN's fleet,esp. its subs. As has entered the IOR with a bang. Warships pretending to hunt for pirates and subs-no pretence whatsoever,are part of china's new forward offensive strategy.As posted in another td. yesterday,from a US article,unless China is met head on with a military response to check it it,will not stop its relentless advance. In that piece,the author,a former US admiral proposed setting up forward bases in the Phillipnes islands with bot air and naval assets to deal with China,from where attacks against Hianan could be launched by land-based aircraft and naval assets. But that would mean a direct spat with the US. To me though,the Chinese are living in "interesting times",entirely out of their own creation.

The Q is not whether the Chinese will one d ay advance across Asia and the IOR but when?Unless India strengthens its armed forces esp. in the sub-surface/maritime domain,strong enough to take China on,by setting up our very own forward bases in Vietnam,etc.,The IOR will be flooded by the Chinese with its subs and warships based out of Gwadar. past time for the Baluchis to get their act going.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Jun 2015 14:53

OK, a question from the uninformed:

Why can't we have a drone carrier? A carrier size vessel packed with armed and surveillance drones, operated from land, say facilities in KL and TN as well as Guj and Orissa. Probably cheaper to operate and can serve multiple purposes, etc...

Does not negate the need for carriers, but as an instrument of war it could be useful no? Is there such a creature in existence at the moment?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jun 2015 15:03

naval ucav strike drones have barely made a landing or two on a amrikan carrier...as yet lacking range and payload but in a decade might take over dpsa role with new engines and 2000km combat radius + LO airframe.
air defence is a long way from going unmanned. so hornets/jsf will remain in strength.

we have barely got the rustom1 male working, rustom2 HALE is a work in progress, hence not even a great surveillance drone in production, let alone a armed UCAV.

we belatedly woke up to the drone revolution and started a decade late and with less funds as usual.

and you want to put them in a unmanned ship also, running untethered and doing automatic takeoff and recovery of drones? the only place I seen it is star wars and avengers .

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 16 Jun 2015 15:27

Karan M wrote:Geeth saar, in one of my prior posts, I had the data - engines dont work well, hydraulics are an issue, and radar needs further upgrades as well.

But let's be fair. Other than these niggling details, it's a 5g a/c in the making

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Jun 2015 16:48

GD,

OK ship can be manned. Can't we do it? Doesn't have to be fancy. We can start with small not the latest tech armed drones going after pirates etc, at night especially. Just thinking. Not all combat has to be a war scenario. Much of it will be aggressive naval policing going forward probably. Only a thought anyways.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 16 Jun 2015 17:05

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD
French Naval Ships Dixmude (LPD) and Aconit (Frigate) are on a visit to Visakhapatnam from 16 to 22 Jun 15.

Why French is taking such a long voyage (to visit Visakhapatnam)? are they luring India with Mistrals that were built for Russia?

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 16 Jun 2015 18:33

In all probability India may go with the Swedish A26 DE subs...

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Jun 2015 19:23

^source?

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 16 Jun 2015 19:37

Arun Menon wrote:^source?

AM source is negative at this point in the public domain....

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Jun 2015 19:45

^Ok. Any reasons to prefer the the Swedish sub?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jun 2015 23:10

Mistral seduction effort appears to be on! I've just made a post in the Vikrant td. A good oppoertunity for the IN to strike. The vessel can double in an ASW role too when needed. But what will CSL then do? Can we afford a Mistral and start building another carrier at CSL within a year?

So at last it is being acknowledged that IN 29Ks were operating at Dega from 2013! Exactly what I said.What diff does it make if they were from the BP sqd.? As the numbers of 29Ks grow,and are sufficient,in a short time,the second sqd. will be formed. I think we should all rejoice at that signal achievement. If we are also able to commission a 3rd sqd. in the A&N islands-apart from the trg. sqd. at Karwar,it would be a very positive move ,giving the IAF a lesser maritime respnsibility which they could use by shifting some of their frontline MKIs to the Sino-Paki border. Yet again,the maritime Jag sqd. at Jamnagar could also be shifted to the A&N instead,as an MKI sqd. in Gujarat would be better placed to deal with teh paki threat there. The air threat for the next few years will be lesser in the A&N than in the Arabian Sea. More MKIs operating on the West coast would increase the range,endurance and capability of anti-PN/PAF ops considerably.

PS:If a western sub,more likely a German U-boat,as it would be easier to train crews,etc. since we've been operating U-boats vfor 20+ years.
PPS: Cheapest solution,acquire/lease a few more Kilos.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2015 02:37

At last? Nope.

It has always been acknowledged that:

* (F)UD is the gold standard
* Operationalizing FUD1: Throw everything on the wall and expect something to stick
* Operationalizing FUD2: Say the sun rises from the South repeatedly and often, until everyone accepts it out of boredom

* In 2013, Dega borrowed, from Hansa, a few MiG-29Ks for "training" (Point being: they were from the Black Panthers) (which is not what was even implied by the postS). (Am trying to see how long they stayed there - cannot be too long {BTW, this is how you make a point})

And, the very central point of discussion:
* That the engine problems still persist - today. Which is why the Russians have been asked to provide proof that the MiG-29K can land on a single engine. A concern that prevents the expensive Vikram from going too far from shore.

IOR centric has a new meaning.

Anyways. Let us agree to disagree and call it a day on this topic.

Have a mojito.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2015 08:53

JE Menon wrote:GD,

OK ship can be manned. Can't we do it? Doesn't have to be fancy. We can start with small not the latest tech armed drones going after pirates etc, at night especially. Just thinking. Not all combat has to be a war scenario. Much of it will be aggressive naval policing going forward probably. Only a thought anyways.

this is a project best awarded to the coast guard. have them run armed rustom1 drones off a mini carrier of sorts with a straight flight deck like HMS invincible but only say 6000t in size.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2015 12:04

India and Australia to conduct first joint naval exercise

The bolded part is the best data point to indicate India is no longer seeking to be an IOR naval power.

India and Australia are reportedly set to conduct their first joint naval exercise later this year as part of efforts to strengthen the military relationship between the countries.

According to defence sources, a trilateral naval exercise, including Japan could also be expected soon
The three Asia-Pacific countries have agreed to strengthen ties in several sectors, especially in the field of maritime security.

A defence source said: "The three countries have agreed to deepen their defence ties with each other.
"The three countries have agreed to deepen their defence ties with each other."

"Discussion on a possible trilateral naval exercise was held but no decision has been taken."
The exercise between India and Australia will take place side-by-side, with a similar Indian exercise with Japan scheduled later to take place in September..
The first-ever high-level trilateral dialogue between these countries was recently held in India, and was attended by Indian Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar, Japanese vice-foreign minister Akitaka Saiki, and Australian Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Peter Varghese.

According to sources, the primary agenda of this high-level meeting was maritime security, including freedom of navigation in the South China Sea, and trilateral maritime cooperation in the Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean.

The trio had carried out similar joint talks with the US in 2007. Australia and Japan have also taken part in the Malabar Exercise, which is an annual bilateral naval exercise between the US and India.

koti · Post by **koti** » 17 Jun 2015 19:00

Just a random thought.

I sense that Tejas will be little under whelming as a naval fighter due to its limited range/payload, single engine and possible naval air threats coming from flankers.

How ridiculous is it to consider using F414 on the Mig-29Ks? Would it provide more capability for the money to be spent?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2015 19:17

If the topic is naval planes then check out what EMALS brings to the table. You have ship with sustainable leading edge tech for decades.

Need forward looking people.

IMHO, the AMCA affords the best option. Start a naval variant from day one. I think the sky is the limit. Need some thinkers on the ground in all communities.

MiG-29k, etc are great. But I just do not think it is a growth platform. The MKI too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2015 19:20

>> How ridiculous is it to consider using F414 on the Mig-29Ks?

unless we have total control (cloning) of making all parts and sw of the Mig29K and/or have some huge lever over russia, they are not going to lose money over this .

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 17 Jun 2015 20:10

If a suitable airfield can be built on Laccadives and Minicoy a permanent aircraft carrier will be available.

koti · Post by **koti** » 17 Jun 2015 21:19

Singha wrote:>> How ridiculous is it to consider using F414 on the Mig-29Ks?

unless we have total control (cloning) of making all parts and sw of the Mig29K and/or have some huge lever over russia, they are not going to lose money over this .

I am not worried about them benefiting. I am thinking whether IN will be better off investing(directly or indirectly) in Mig29K and have better capability against the emergent PLAN threats or if N-LCA will be able to deal with this better?

In house capability building is achieved with LCA and I feel there is no significant advantage with the NLCA development especially considering the timelines involved in its arrival. NLCA will be the lightest fighter in that role amongst biggies and though capable in its category I am concerned it will be forced to deal with threats that put it at an inherent disadvantage.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Jun 2015 22:43

koti wrote:...
How ridiculous is it to consider using F414 on the Mig-29Ks? Would it provide more capability for the money to be spent?

Very. If MK1 to Mk2 involves the pain it seems to, then Mig29K to F414 is 3x and we don't have blueprints or the tooling.

Cheaper to build another Vikrant and as soon as the 1st Vikrant is inducted, sell the GorkY and Mig29s to Vietnam or Russia and replace with Rafale Ms or JSFs

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2015 01:37

Unrelated to "Navy", but impacts the IN (and perhaps other services):

One Year of Narendra Modi govt: Bold moves on world stage

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Jun 2015 06:47

Navy takes 'yogic picnic' to South China Sea

SCS.

A naval ship, the INS Kamorta, also sailed into the South China Sea disputed by China and five other nations and one of the most tense geopolitical zones at present, and docked at Kuantan in eastern Malaysia today. The Eastern Fleet of the Indian Navy is on an annual deployment, making friendly port visits and "showing the flag" under the command of Rear Admiral Ajendra Bahadur Singh.

...........................................

The Indian warships in the deployment are the INS Ranvir, a guided missile destroyer, commanded by Captain Jaswinder Singh, INS Satpura, indigenously built guided missile stealth frigate commanded by Captain Hari Krishnan, INS Shakti a fleet tanker and support ship, commanded by Captain Vikram Menon and INS Kamorta, commanded by Commander Manoj Kumar Jha.

"This visit is aimed at strengthening bilateral ties and enhancing inter-operability between navies of the two friendly nations (India and Malaysia)," the navy said in a statement.