Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 17 Jun 2015 19:07

Re - Shulka's comment.

Col Rathore has served in active CI Ops in the valley for a long time. He took up trap shooting as a Major after being with his unit for many years. He was walking home after a course in Mhow (he was doing a course in mhow or was on staff, I'm not sure) and somehow took a detour to the shooting range. Rest is history. Shulka is bullshitting. I have lost all respect for him.

Point two - As a MoS he was doing what he was briefed to do. The messaging from GOI was well thought out and calibrated. I have replayed Rathore's comments several times and find them impeccable. Tragedy is the NDTV gang have brainwashed the nation. My dad , who retired after 31 years in the army (my service was a fraction of his) and got a mine blast injury in 71 after marching into a known minefield at the head of his troops, loved our action but also bought the 'we can't go into another country' crap. I had to explain NDTV to him and he said 'damn you are right'.

Gentlemen and (ladies) do not underestimate the effect of the media.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 Jun 2015 19:09

Our Special Forces currently cannot conduct surgical strikes across the heavily defended Indo-Pakistan line of control (LoC), but India can credibly strike Pakistani targets with fighter aircraft, rocket salvos and cruise missiles. The United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government disregarded these options after the 26/11 Mumbai attacks in 2008. So too did the National Democratic Alliance (NDA) government after the 2001 terror strike on Parliament --- the NDA unwisely leapt up the escalation ladder to full-scale military mobilization, stopped short of war only by Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent. Now that the Indian military is aware that it can cross borders in retaliation, it will have to think and plan beyond Myanmar.

What a jackass!

1) It is a clearly established fact of history that the 'unwise escalation ladder' resulted in the disarmament of Pakistan's nuclear weapons - they were taken away by US and Chinese forces (some to China, the rest removed to unspecified locations by Americans).

2. The Paki weapons may be back as tactical nukes. They have brilliantly handed them to lower-level commanders. Who, as a small bird tells me, are mostly 400%-vetted Patriots - working for certain intelligence agencies that shall not be named.

Thus in the event of a terrorist attack, the Indian retaliation (Special forces will find a free path, while entire divisions switch sides) will be amplified by a takeover of Islamagood at nuke-point. By the next Pakistani CEO. Acting for Indian and American interests.

Indian 'military journalists' are like the British ones who used to report on conflicts in central africa. Sitting in hotels in Johannesburg in a drunken stupor. At least they were just drunk. Is this guy sober? Just showing his IQ?

Vishal_Bhatia · Post by **Vishal_Bhatia** » 18 Jun 2015 09:17

A thought occurred to me, and I may be wrong here.

The biggest message from this operation was to Han China, especially its "String of Pearls" strategy. I never bought much into it, as these "pearls" are nothing but needle points to prick us, and that is that. The fig leaf that these points offered to Han China was that these points are in "neutral" countries and presented India with diplomatic hurdles. The Myanmar operation demolished these hurdles: if we are willing to subdue a neighbor in peace-time, one can imagine the extent to which we will go in case things go hot (e.g., missile strikes on radar bases and listening posts in the IOR).

American silence on this issue only adds to my view: they welcome any thappad to Han China. As for Myanmar, a civil war may erupt there, and our PSYOPS wing should play this as a Buddhist vs. Godless Han Commies affair. My wetdream is a dirty-ops team (Detachment 8?) in the Myanmar--South China border.

These are just my view, and I may be wrong. I welcome any corrections.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jun 2015 09:47

myanmar has been in a state of mild civil war with occasional flareups ever since WW2. its their steady state. cheen is making a play to economically take over the northern half with rails, roads, pipelines and yum yum a port on the bay of bengal.

we need to move in and offer rangoon a balancer in form of our own investments and roads into the north and trade in a big way even if via a couple of ports.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jun 2015 10:05

myanmar seems to have taken a leaf from islam's book in the treatment of minority 'kufars'
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/16/opini ... index.html

saw ARGO film last night...nice work..authentic dress and locales and shot in a 70s type film grain filter...iranian revolutionary warriors going around rounding up 'spies' and 'kufars' and shouting death to america at all points.....

Vishal_Bhatia · Post by **Vishal_Bhatia** » 18 Jun 2015 10:14

Religious minorities will likely give way to ethnic minorities. This map is illustrative of their spread: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/ ... ayMap.html

This graph gives population data: http://www.oxfordburmaalliance.org/ethnic-groups.html

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 18 Jun 2015 10:34

just a few random thoughts

nda captures power at centre

congress loses massively in elections in several states

congress is known to have funded the NSCN(K) criminal group and therefore its a wing of the congress party http://www.telegraphindia.com/1070220/a ... 413888.asp

NSCN(K) criminal group is based out of myanmar

NSCN(K) chief criminal is known to be sick and stationed in yangon ( capital of mynamar) http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 631761.cms

rahul has a mysterious vacation in mynamar

no details about whom he met or discussed what topics are revealed

rahul arrives back to india and starts agitating for farmers

plan was to create massive internal destabilisation

this would have forced centre to withdraw security forces from either North East or Central India

at the same time take advantage of the situation and ask the naxal wing of the congress party to attack in central india and NSCN(K) to attack in North East

NSCN(K) attack boomeranged with centre launching cross-border raids into myanmar

congress party criminals whine in the media about jingoism and ultra-nationalism of modi, no word of condemnation against the attack by NSCN(K) on our jawans

Now wait for a major attack by the naxal wing of the congress party on our jawans in central india and attacks by the presstitutes in the media attacking modi but not the naxals

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 18 Jun 2015 10:49

Singha wrote:myanmar seems to have taken a leaf from islam's book in the treatment of minority 'kufars'
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/16/opini ... index.html

typical cnn propaganda full of half-truths and outright lies

maybe the author should have read a little history about the disgusting behavior of the mawalis against the buddhists in myanmar.

the mawalis tried their dirty jihad as taught by their arab bandit masters and instead got a tight and well deserved slap on their criminal face

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_ ... tern_Burma

niran · Post by **niran** » 18 Jun 2015 11:05

Avinash R wrote:Now wait for a major attack by the naxal wing of the congress party on our jawans in central india and attacks by the presstitutes in the media attacking modi but not the naxals

the naxals are getting hit hard country wise even in Jharkhand the tally of Naxals dispatched to Yamlok
is in 50ies/month since last few months currently onree Bengal there is some peace for naxals, but that is small area unable to hold comrades from other states. it is a mater of time saar these naxal will lay down arms and sue for peace.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 18 Jun 2015 12:00

^ you forget bihar which is the key to ending the naxal menace.

right now bihar allows top naxals to easily escape to nepal after conducting strikes in jharkhand, bengal and chattisgarh region

cm of bihar nitish kumar is known to be 'soft' towards naxals http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/inte ... 25794.html
................
"Nitish Kumar is not understanding that Naxals have links with terrorists nowadays. Bihar has become a soft zone for terrorists nowadays. Funds meant for anti-Naxal operations are not used. Bihar has become a soft zone, one person responsible for this is Nitish Kumar, the Bihar government has no Naxal policy. Nitish is soft because of vote bank politics."

The report also says top Maoist leaders who are lodged inside various jails in Bihar are guiding their cadres from inside the jail.
.........

bihar is the swamp which is filled with corrupt anti-national netas who give protection to naxals and mawali terrorists. until this swamp is drained the security situation in all neighboring states will be weak.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 18 Jun 2015 12:02

UlanBatori wrote:1) It is a clearly established fact of history that the 'unwise escalation ladder' resulted in the disarmament of Pakistan's nuclear weapons - they were taken away by US and Chinese forces (some to China, the rest removed to unspecified locations by Americans).

2. The Paki weapons may be back as tactical nukes. They have brilliantly handed them to lower-level commanders. Who, as a small bird tells me, are mostly 400%-vetted Patriots - working for certain intelligence agencies that shall not be named.

Thus in the event of a terrorist attack, the Indian retaliation (Special forces will find a free path, while entire divisions switch sides) will be amplified by a takeover of Islamagood at nuke-point. By the next Pakistani CEO. Acting for Indian and American interests.

Then why did we not react post-26/11? Not to mention all those terror attacks from 2006-2009/10.

Did Pakis already possess tactical nukes by then?

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 18 Jun 2015 12:04

More FUD being spread by the media

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-op ... ll-2096620

niran · Post by **niran** » 18 Jun 2015 12:21

Avinash R wrote:^ you forget bihar which is the key to ending the naxal menace.

the Bihar gap will be plugged come October. then what? onree Bengal, them Naxals are getting boxed in it is a mater of 10 -12 months saar.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 18 Jun 2015 13:06

niran wrote:
Avinash R wrote:^ you forget bihar which is the key to ending the naxal menace.

the Bihar gap will be plugged come October. then what? onree Bengal, them Naxals are getting boxed in it is a mater of 10 -12 months saar.

I am not sure NDA can win bihar state elections. the corrupt laloo-nitish plan to use a combination of appeasing the muslim votebank and attacking the bjp for being anti-farmer to capture power. Then its back to loot ki sarkar and jungle raj for another five years with free hand to naxals and mawalis.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2015 19:09

Kashi wrote:......

Then why did we not react post-26/11? Not to mention all those terror attacks from 2006-2009/10.

Did Pakis already possess tactical nukes by then?

1) IA was not ready Gen. Deepak Kapoor wanted three months to get ready. By them the whole world would range against India led by US.
2) Retaliation was expected and awaited. Its like walking into ambush with unready military.

In retrospect the jihadi movement/wave turned on TSP itself and we see the impacts.

I said before what India needs to do is to stand and survive. The rest will fall apart.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jun 2015 19:11

Avinash R wrote:More FUD being spread by the media

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-op ... ll-2096620

Air strikes were considered and not used due to concerns:
- collateral damage. Its not like IAF is flush with PGMs!!!! They are needed elsewhere.
- using air forces is generally act of war unless you are USA!!!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jun 2015 20:15

From twitter:

Minhaz Merchant ‏@minhazmerchant 1h1 hour ago

PM meets commandos #myanmarstrike. Reports say over 60 militant bodies trucked back to India. 7 bodies @IndianExpress?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Jun 2015 21:35

India and Myanmar have good military to military relationship. And successive governments have wisely allowed a military based diplomacy, rather than have another alienated neighbor. It is one of the few rare cases where GoI and MEA have listened to Army.

IA has gifted old T-55 tanks, IN has gifted old Islander aircraft, and BEL has sold HMS-X sonars.

http://www.janes.com/article/51072/indi ... r-frigates

Indian state-owned company Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) has been cleared by the Indian government to begin installing the HMS-X integrated ship sonar system on two more Aung Zeya-class guided-missile frigates belonging to the Myanmar Navy, an official from India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) told IHS Jane's on 29 April.

The HMS-X system was developed with inputs from the DRDO, and is currently being marketed by BEL. The DRDO has described the product as a more advanced development of the HUMSA sonar.

Myanmar Navy builds its own ships in its own Naval Dockyard. Pretty decent by their standards. The only ships with Chinese radars & missiles and Indian sonars.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4uUf674O78U/U ... igate_.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uf77Jk3h90c/V ... 2BF-12.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XKr-uENSAuA/U ... eF14-6.jpg

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 18 Jun 2015 21:42

^^ wow. Stealth shaped

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 Jun 2015 21:43

ramana wrote:- using air forces is generally act of war unless you are USA!!!!

Err.. not always. Remember the recent Myanmarese airstrike across the China border.

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 18 Jun 2015 22:05

Didn't we sell some Dhruvs to Myanmar. i remeber some European rona dhona regarding human rights.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 18 Jun 2015 23:57

Hush, EASA certification is coming up for Dhruv, Mi-17s might be an easier sell to Burma

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 19 Jun 2015 00:11

tsarkar wrote:
Myanmar Navy builds its own ships in its own Naval Dockyard. Pretty decent by their standards. The only ships with Chinese radars & missiles and Indian sonars.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4uUf674O78U/U ... igate_.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uf77Jk3h90c/V ... 2BF-12.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XKr-uENSAuA/U ... eF14-6.jpg

OT but these hulls look awfully close to F 22P frigate hull designs which porkies also operate.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2015 06:16

tsarkar wrote:
Myanmar Navy builds its own ships in its own Naval Dockyard. Pretty decent by their standards. The only ships with Chinese radars & missiles and Indian sonars.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4uUf674O78U/U ... igate_.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uf77Jk3h90c/V ... 2BF-12.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XKr-uENSAuA/U ... eF14-6.jpg

Frankly, I am surprised. All these decades the name "Myanmar" has not appeared on the radar for even a coastal patrol boat, and then suddenly they have at least two ships that look ultramodern and have a hangar for a helo at the back and all.

Either shipbuilding and such designs(the dry dock, the steel, the skilled workforce) are not such a big deal or there is something fishy about this Myanmaar shipyard build. Ship building like aircraft building is an "ongoing process" and the skills must come from somewhere. So where was the Myanmarese industry all these years?

niran · Post by **niran** » 19 Jun 2015 06:35

shiv wrote:So where was the Myanmarese industry all these years?

it is a cheeni yard in Myanmar sir, the equipment, crews down to screw drivers are cheeni. even the gaurds at the gate/janitors are cheeni.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jun 2015 06:39

niran wrote:
shiv wrote:So where was the Myanmarese industry all these years?
it is a cheeni yard in Myanmar sir, the equipment, crews down to screw drivers are cheeni. even the gaurds at the gate/janitors are cheeni.

OK that would explain it. Very likely. But somehow I either missed the news of Cheeni shipbuilding in Myanmar, or I read something and forgot about it.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 19 Jun 2015 07:11

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 95755.html

The PM was not privy to details of the operation and yet Praveen "Grandmother crossed the LoC" Swami had complete knowledge of exactly how many people died in the operation. 400% believable, like all of Praveen Swami's BS.

He met the commandoes “to pat them on their backs” and know for himself the operation in Myanmar, sources said.

On June 9, the 21 Para Special Forces’ unit had entered Myanmar and killed 60 insurgents in a surgical strike on two of their camps. The rebels, on June 4, led by the Nationalist Socialist Council of Nagaland (K) had killed 18 Army men and injured 11 jawans in an attack in Manipur.

The team comprising 45 to 50 soldiers of the 21 Para Special Forces met Modi and in attendance were senior-most officers of the Army’s Eastern Command. Photos were clicked but none made public so far. Modi spent a fair amount of time talking to the officers and men about the operations and congratulating them. For the Army, it was a first, in recent years, that the Prime Minister met an operational team. Interactions between the Prime Minister and men on the ground are largely limited to the former’s visits to border areas.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jun 2015 07:58

shiv wrote:OK that would explain it. Very likely. But somehow I either missed the news of Cheeni shipbuilding in Myanmar, or I read something and forgot about it.

In addition to what niran said, building a stealth vessel from outside does not alone make it stealth. I know this is going to be an apple & oranges comparison, but the USN's newest Zumwalt Class destroyer goes beyond just the visual aspects of stealth but even the insides of the vessel are all designed for a very minimal footprint. All of the technical aspects - including the 'visual' stealth - of the Zumwalt Class make her the formidable boat that she is designed to be. This Cheeni shipbuilding of stealth can only take one so far. Imitation can only take you so far.

Admins, sorry for derailing the thread!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jun 2015 09:04

a JDF designer was saying in soryu class even small details like the noise made by tubelights was looked into and addressed.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jun 2015 22:43

@shiv Myanmar has a fairly professional navy that builds its own ships in its own dockyards. They started with small boats two decades ago, then built corvettes and finally small frigates in the current decade. While not very state of art in terms of range or performance, they're good enough for their requirement.

Also, they're astute, picking up DRDO BEL HMS-X sonars over Russian or Chinese ones.

Never heard of Chinese shipyard in Myanmar.

Some details here http://mmmilitary.blogspot.in. Note the "Tulu pump" in the mast next to C-802 missile being fired.

Just sloped sides don't impart stealth. Adm Hiranandani's last book has details into the studies that went into designing INS Shivalik.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 Jun 2015 01:29

Then why did we not react post-26/11? Not to mention all those terror attacks from 2006-2009/10.
Did Pakis already possess tactical nukes by then?

No, but India was possessed by Sonia-MMS from 2004 to 2014. The military command structure was in total disarray with morale way down. Besides, 'react' is exactly what India should not do: when the Paki sh1ts launch such attacks, they are already on alert for an Indian counter-strike. Any retaliation should come, as Rathore said, on India's timetable and choice of location. Are you sure there haven't been retaliation(s) for Mumbai and other attacks?

Of course I wouldn't expect India to go attack the Kohinoor Palace Hotel in Karachi as 'retaliation' and kill a bunch of civilians, but a lot of other bad things have happened to the Paki High Command since 2008.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Jun 2015 05:11

tsarkar wrote:@shiv Myanmar has a fairly professional navy that builds its own ships in its own dockyards. They started with small boats two decades ago, then built corvettes and finally small frigates in the current decade. While not very state of art in terms of range or performance, they're good enough for their requirement.

Also, they're astute, picking up DRDO BEL HMS-X sonars over Russian or Chinese ones.

Never heard of Chinese shipyard in Myanmar.

Some details here http://mmmilitary.blogspot.in. Note the "Tulu pump" in the mast next to C-802 missile being fired.

Just sloped sides don't impart stealth. Adm Hiranandani's last book has details into the studies that went into designing INS Shivalik.

Interesting. Who'da thunk it?

What is a tulu pump? I am guessing it has no connection with the Tulu language spoken in Karnataka

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 20 Jun 2015 05:29

Singha wrote:myanmar has been in a state of mild civil war with occasional flareups ever since WW2. its their steady state. cheen is making a play to economically take over the northern half with rails, roads, pipelines and yum yum a port on the bay of bengal.

we need to move in and offer rangoon a balancer in form of our own investments and roads into the north and trade in a big way even if via a couple of ports.

GD mahasaya,

Myanmar is doing a fine job getting rid of its own secularism. Lets not get in there and teach them Ahimsa.

Myanmar will be a model for most of ASEAN nations in coming decades in terms of civilizational assertiveness.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 Jun 2015 06:41

shiv wrote: What is a tulu pump? I am guessing it has no connection with the Tulu language spoken in Karnataka

I think he meant Tullu pump. Its a euphemism for a old looking primitive technology pump...Hindustan Motors:Cars::Tullu:Pumps.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Jun 2015 17:32

I think the "best pronunciation" might be "Thallu" pump - rhyming with "Mallu" or "Sallu" (Salman). "Thallu" means "push" in Kannada (it's "Thall-uh" in Tamil) and it is a pusher pump.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 20 Jun 2015 18:17

Tullu is a brand name and they used to make low tech mono block pumps..Have they goe up the ladder in technology? I dont know.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jun 2015 18:24

Lets get back to topic. I plan to close it as not much info is coming out. Sort of asymptote.

rajatmisra · Post by **rajatmisra** » 20 Jun 2015 20:58

Basic questions from a civilian:
1. Could a couple of terrorists been captured alive? Bound and got back to get more details. How difficult would that be?
2. If the camps were in deep forests, with (presumably) little civilian population around, wouldn't it make more sense to actually use air bombardment? If not plans then helicopter gunships?

Would like to hear from the gurus

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Jun 2015 23:32

I was referring to this photo http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YcUYvwKAHjQ/V ... 1772_n.jpg

And the motor on the mast. Note how the 14.5 mm guns are upright, and the ammunition racks are empty to avoid ammunition cook-off by the missile exhaust.

Before Ramana closes the thread, here is some open source reading on the murky world of intelligence.

How India's relationship changed with Myanmar is an interesting story. Earlier both supported freedom fighters in each other's territories. That changed with Operation Leech. Makes interesting reading -

http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/jul/14cbi1.htm

There is a thin line between freedom fighters and bandits. Note how they kidnapped Thai fishermen for not paying "taxes"/ransom.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/o ... ndia.burma

The apprehended were/are in Kolkata jail. An advocate T Vasantha took up their case. She was murdered in 2003.

In 2007 CISF Commandant K C Suresh Kumar, who was heading the Intelligence Bureau at Andamans during Operation Leech, was accused of her murder & arrested.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-le ... et-1083978

He was acquitted in 2009 and the CBI officer who accused him was arrested by his own agency for corruption.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-th ... le-1218861

R. Adm Hiranandani gives a crisp view in his book Transition to Guardianship 1991-2000. Also has given a fascinating insight on Karikal Muslims, French speaking Tamil Muslims from the French colony of Karikal who migrated to Indochina & other French SE Asian colonies, and in the turmoil of conflict in that part of the world, started a flourishing arms bazaar.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jun 2015 03:01

One thing the raid did was put and end to motivated articles by experts about bloated SF in India!!!