Indian Roads Thread

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Jul 2015 06:26

if space is the problem, then they should first focus on acquiring land for vegetation.

along side road trees does not hurt, but it would be stupid thing to do if it so done in a way that prevents future growth.

for our traffic, we need to plan 8+8 lane highways.

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 05 Jul 2015 22:41

chetak,

"If the accident happened in spite of Hema Malini carefully checking the driver's license, skills and training, then what??

Then the driver/owner is not liable, as simple as that.

"surely, one is not going to buy a 70-80 lakhs mercedes and entrust the driving of the same to a complete amateur, no??"

Not always the case. In my experience if you can afford an expensive car in India you may take the view that the "rules" just do not apply to you and you will order your driver to drive in a way that suits you. Being a driver in India is quite a servile position, can you imagine a driver saying no to the =ir employer???

"This is India and not america. They are in an even shittier condition than we are, just having more money and attacking every other country in the world and propping up dictators is no excuse to be quoting amreki practices. We do not need to follow their standards because most of the time they are not applicable or even valid for us"

You are ranting.
How many people die in road accidents in the USA?
I believe the figure is about 100-150,000 per yr in India.

You have to do what works, if some of their practices can be emulated and lives saved, then what is the big deal??

"They are in an even shittier condition than we are, just having more money and attacking every other country in the world and propping up dictators is no excuse to be quoting amreki practices"

What the hell does that have to do with road safety??

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 05 Jul 2015 23:05

Trees should be planted along roads in a careful manner. Not willy nilly like we do in India. For express ways, usually there needs to be crash barriers and 75 foot type bare strips between the road and trees. This is to prevent organic material like the roots from getting into the compacted sub-grade and damaging the road. Very expensive to fix. Also prevent over hanging complications. Even state highways need such protections. A vehicle striking a tree is a high probability fatality and should be planned for.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Jul 2015 00:01

In the DC metro area with large number of trees off smaller roads, we hear about fatal accidents involving vehicles and trees. SHQ was lucky a decade ago when her tercel ran off the road and down and embankment and hit a tree at low speeds. Car totaled but she walked away safe luckily. Just this month there were two cases, one where teenage high school kids lost lives after their vehicle veered off and hit a tree and another involving an elderly man in his 60s. These are not even highway speeds.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Jul 2015 09:34

in the Hema Malini accident, why is everyone forgetting the merging on to the Road by the Alto. I have seen many cases of people barging on to High ways and main roads. What then?

Gus- I am already supposed to a pay premium say 21.5 per km plus Airport Plus surcharges, for Hyderabad Airport to/from In Laws place which comes to nearly 900 for 37km. That is aa decent amount, yet the drivers don't slow down and drive inspite of repeated requests. Calls to ab company are ignored.

No the problem is cab drivers ignore all suggestions. I suggest this - all commercial vehicles have a speed limitor like gulf where Engine cuts of at 110 Km, self drive cars at 100 kms.

There should be greater speed breakers etc while people are entering a Highway/ taking right turns etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2015 09:49

has anyone seen photos of the hema malini accident or a chart of how it happened?

a beefy S-class merc vs a alto isnt going to be a fair fight.

looks like a head on http://english.manoramaonline.com/conte ... 84.410.jpg

http://businessofcinema.com/bollywood_n ... pot/215854
this article says the car rode over the divider and hit...The Rajasthan police has arrested Hema Malini’s driver Ramesh Chand after FIR was registered against him for rash driving where 5 year old girl died. According to the reports, it is said that the driver was driving rash and the speeding Mercedes Benz drove over the divider.
On Friday morning at 7:45am, Duasa police arrested the driver under section 304-A (Causing death due to negligence) of the Indian Penal Code(IPC) which is a bailable offense. Reportedly the driver would be taken to the accident spot for the further verification.

as can be expected the big merc did not suffer much damage and no intrusion or deformation of the passenger compartment at all..maybe slight deformation of the A-pillar.
http://www.desimartini.com/news/bollywo ... e21538.htm

we really ought to stop this chutiapanti of claiming that as speeds are lower in india, its alright to sell cars like alto here with no airbags, less structural strength and everything oriented to fuel economy and cost....many of these cars would not be given legal permission to drive abroad. hold lives to a higher std and mandate atleast front airbags and better crash resistence down to the lowest end of cars. with 4 laned NH proliferating,
even the unsafe cars are being driven at 100+

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Jul 2015 09:55

^^^^^^^

Also, may of the "Indian" compact and sub compact cars made by phoren companies will not pass the crash test criteria, Seat belts are mandatory now. Even If the car originally did not have them you still have to fit them on your own, to comply with the MV act.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2015 09:59

the GOI has let the foreign cos get away by selling trash here too long. the foreign models of the same cars will have all mandatory safety features.

i think its time to shift the goalpost a bit towards safety from fuel-economy.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Jul 2015 16:59

One suggestion from FB - instead of just fining people without helmets - fine them but also give them a helmet. Once a guy gets 2 or 3 at home, he will be forced to wear one just to avoid getting any more helmets.

i always wore helmet. I was the only guy who did that in town and people would tell me they saw me somewhere just from spotting a guy with helmet. After marriage, I forced wife to wear one as well when she is in the pillion.

A distant college going cousin of wife bought a bike. First question I asked was did he buy a helmet. He just laughed and went away. A few months later he died in accident.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Jul 2015 17:16

Aditya_V wrote:in the Hema Malini accident, why is everyone forgetting the merging on to the Road by the Alto. I have seen many cases of people barging on to High ways and main roads. What then?

Gus- I am already supposed to a pay premium say 21.5 per km plus Airport Plus surcharges, for Hyderabad Airport to/from In Laws place which comes to nearly 900 for 37km. That is aa decent amount, yet the drivers don't slow down and drive inspite of repeated requests. Calls to ab company are ignored.

No the problem is cab drivers ignore all suggestions. I suggest this - all commercial vehicles have a speed limitor like gulf where Engine cuts of at 110 Km, self drive cars at 100 kms.

There should be greater speed breakers etc while people are entering a Highway/ taking right turns etc.

I think the speed limit in few call taxis is limited to 80 KMPH in Hyderabad. When the car touched the speed, a warning message popped up. But honestly, more than the speed, the driving sense is more important. For ex, if a sedan travelling even at 50 KMPH hits a scooter, even then there could be fatalities. Huge fines and car impounding are the best bet. Collect the fines immediately and make car recovery from impounds a 2 3 days process, in this way the company would have paid fine and also lost 2 3 days income from the cab.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Jul 2015 20:01

In that Hema Malini picture it is obvious that even the Mercedes airbag did not deploy. Or she was sitting in the back seat without a seat bet on. Our public personalities set a very poor example again and again. Without a seat belt even a 30 kmph accident is a fatality waiting to happen.

I’m not a big fan of the fine and confiscate policy. With Indias weak legal system this is a recipe for disaster tangling up all manner of innocents and criminalizing the citizenry. We need voluntary compliance with a few threats thrown in. This only comes with education.

Patience.
Nowhere in our schooling, social messaging and enforcement is patience taught. The idea of waiting your turn and following others at a safe distance seems anathema. If there is one item that a dense urban society demands it is patience and the corollaries teamwork and cooperation. Without knowing these concepts no amount of draconian harassment is going to make any difference.

Confiscating vehicles.
The driver fellow will quit his job, go join another company and continue plying his trade. The Police station near my house is filled with confiscated Auto’s and Cars that just sit there and rot because the driver has long since moved on. It has almost zero effect.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Jul 2015 20:17

Your point for patience etc will work in an ideal world. In real world scenario good luck educating patience to all the drivers and seeing the change. I am not talking only about call taxi drivers. On average, the driving sense of Indian public is poor. In such scenario, the threat of fines and impounding will have an impact. With regards to the taxi drivers, in most if not all of call taxis, there are ID's of the cab driver, the taxi companies can and have to do a background check of the drivers they hire, just like other companies do. This system may not exist today but it can be brought about fairly easily. Also, If any cab company's cars are involved in a certain number of accidents, then the company can be penalized etc. We need strict rules and regulations.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Jul 2015 20:31

meru cabs in blr also has the speed warning at 80kmph....might be some back channel reporting to their control room as well because I have seen them slow down to 80.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 06 Jul 2015 20:45

Gus wrote:One suggestion from FB - instead of just fining people without helmets - fine them but also give them a helmet. Once a guy gets 2 or 3 at home, he will be forced to wear one just to avoid getting any more helmets.

After a high court order Tamil Nadu police is enforcing the rules regarding helmets very strictly. From what I heard, every police district have to report their performance (on how many fines levied). Fining and the police providing a helmet is just an impractical idea. TN Police approach is much better. The offender is levied a fine, and the vehicle or documents would be seized. The offender can show a receipt (in his name) for the purchase of a helmet (a branded one, which is ISI certified) at the police station and then take the vehicle/documents back. The fine levied for helmet-less ride is a pittance (Rs.100/-), so if a helmet is given after this fine people would volunteer to get caught by the police.

Kerala Police had used a simpler approach - sustained campaign tracking down riders going without a helmet. At any point of time police mobiles were stationed on the roads and fines were levied left, right and center. After 3-4 months of this campaign people started wearing helmets, just like they would wear their shirts before stepping out

.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 06 Jul 2015 21:23

Theo_Fidel wrote:In that Hema Malini picture it is obvious that even the Mercedes airbag did not deploy. Or she was sitting in the back seat without a seat bet on. Our public personalities set a very poor example again and again. Without a seat belt even a 30 kmph accident is a fatality waiting to happen.

I’m not a big fan of the fine and confiscate policy. With Indias weak legal system this is a recipe for disaster tangling up all manner of innocents and criminalizing the citizenry. We need voluntary compliance with a few threats thrown in. This only comes with education.

Patience.
Nowhere in our schooling, social messaging and enforcement is patience taught. The idea of waiting your turn and following others at a safe distance seems anathema. If there is one item that a dense urban society demands it is patience and the corollaries teamwork and cooperation. Without knowing these concepts no amount of draconian harassment is going to make any difference.

Confiscating vehicles.
The driver fellow will quit his job, go join another company and continue plying his trade. The Police station near my house is filled with confiscated Auto’s and Cars that just sit there and rot because the driver has long since moved on. It has almost zero effect.

The English have a saying. 'Honesty is the best policy'. Mind you they never said that it will get you to Heaven or something like that. Between not being honest and being honest it works out to your advantage if you stay honest, in the long run. They are a pragmatic people. Honesty is the other name for staying within the four corners of the law. In effect what they are saying is that costs of breaking the law is more expensive than staying within. So the bottomline is this. If the State wants to enforce the seat belt rule or helmet rule it has to ensure that retribution will follow more times than not for those contemplating violating it. Sadly, the Indian State is no where close to achieving it. As to why the Indian public don't seem to care for their well being, there is a socio cultural explanation for that. Indians have got accustomed to an oppressive behaviour over centuries, by rulers both native and foreign, they distrust anything that is handed down by the rulers. The Bengal famine in the 40s is a classic example of land revenue rates that was utterly insensitive to the poor state of the agrarian economy at that time. The native rulers over time in the past were no better. So there is a disconnect between the State edict and an ability to perceive what the State is saying is in their interests.

srin · Post by **srin** » 06 Jul 2015 23:29

Singha wrote:meru cabs in blr also has the speed warning at 80kmph....might be some back channel reporting to their control room as well because I have seen them slow down to 80.

I remember that well, but I don't believe it is linked to the control room - the warning goes off and the cabbie is cruising at 100 kmph on the BIAL road. The speeds the cabbies go on that road is pretty scary - especially when you see overloaded trucks trudging along at some 30 kmph on middle and outer lanes

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 07 Jul 2015 01:29

Talking of trucks, someone needs to educate truck drivers not to drive on the fast lane and not to top on the side of the highway. Far too many accidents have happened where vehicles have read ended parked trucks on the highway especially during the transition from dusk to dawn and vice versa.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jul 2015 03:43

bade, this grass growing bijnej is briturd thingie!

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... grass.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2015 15:03

saw a full on fist fight between a gent in a car and a auto driver today afternoon . not a impact just that the car coming in right of way had cut off the auto drivers god given right to waltz into a place where it narrows to one lane. auto driver was older and weaker but he caught the guys collar and tried to intimidate....luckily the guy was a full on non-IT bearded IM not some meek munna and he wasnt going to back down. auto drivers and a huge crowd gathered likes flies within 2 mins. in between a ambulance sirens wailing got helplessly bogged down in the swarming crowd.

a cheeky chokra from somewhere started being the traffic cop (real one was MIA) and helped buses and cars like mine to pass to the side and move on.

even a trip to koramangala and back is a experience that leaves my hands a bit numb these days and BP +10 off normal. need to go for a long run in evening to -10 it again.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Jul 2015 18:20

police can charge both the fighters on rage on traffic offence or even serious, depending on the traffic block. need laws that prosecute people who are found guilty of blocking traffic, especially during peak hours.. the gas guzzlers adds to the road traffic quandary.

Rajesh_MR · Post by **Rajesh_MR** » 07 Jul 2015 19:07

Bangalore Police started charging people for blocking traffic including going to blows for fender benders. Saw in ToI today

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 07 Jul 2015 19:41

Rajesh_MR wrote:Bangalore Police started charging people for blocking traffic including going to blows for fender benders. Saw in ToI today

They are charged for affray, and not for any traffic violation where the penalty is less. The traffic police hand over the culprits to the law & order police, who would form charges of affray.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2015 20:08

the police have to be there first. the traffic police is undermanned to deal with the 24x7 scale of traffic issues here.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 07 Jul 2015 22:45

I was in Chandigarh ( April 2015)., I always drive by myself since I cannot trust any driver in India. I had borrowed a Maruti 800 from my Aunt. Funny incident! The valet parking guys at Mall in Chandigarh would not park Maruti 800 (it is deemed a poor person's vehicle now). The line was Mercedes, BMW, BMW Suv, Maruti 800, Audi, Honda, etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2015 12:16

IBN : According to eyewitnesses, the Alto car which in which the child and her family was travelling, was on the wrong side of the road when it rammed into Hema Malini's speeding Mercedes.

--
this matches the photo i posted on previous page of the alto suffering more damage on the front left side which would be case if it were creeping along the wrong side to the left of road.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Jul 2015 12:48

Is it wrong side or a taking a right turn at speed without bothering about oncoming vehicle. I have seen causual/ egoistic behaviour where people it is too much bother to slow down when taking turns or merging into main roads.

The sad thing is a kid paid with its life.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Jul 2015 13:45

^^^

That is not the sad part. The sad part will be that Hema Malini will be forced to pay compensation to the dead child's family. By the esteemed justice system in the country.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2015 14:29

the father if he was driving should be charged with rash driving resulting in death instead.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2015 14:46

i used to go for long cycle rides on a highway near my house on some weekends..max was 40km with avg 20km.

but gave it up from a year ago looking at ever increasing num of water tankers, earth movers, rash taxis and kamandu SUVs speeding around.

I face the status quo problem - to survive I need to survive every day out there. to succeed in putting me in the crematorium, 'they' need to make a mistake only once. I am only a army of one, 'they' are in 1000s

so now i bike ride once a week on sunday afternoon for 8km inside my community only.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Jul 2015 16:36

Reading the posts on this thread, and looking at the image of the Alto. either of the scenarios could have happened.

It seems that the Alto driver was entering merging traffic from the right and his turn was too wide. Which resulted in the hit.

From personal experience of small town drivers, I can say that when entering the highway from the left of the road and needing to go in the opposite direction of the traffic / other side of the road. Instead of reaching for the nearest crossover for the right side of the Highway. They will turn on the headlight and drive full speed in to in coming traffic, while looking for the crossover.

If the Alto was doing this. It will result in the Alto getting the damage on the left side, As it seems evident, from the pictures.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Jul 2015 19:54

If traffic is blocked, the last person reaches there would be cops.. the person has to walk all the way to control and clear blocks. This traffic nonsense needs multi-prong policy.
- infra to improve on mass transport
--> metros, brts, dedicated lanes, etc..- do we have space?
- improve traffic discipline
--> schools, new rules, training, licensing, etc. - trash the RTO first.
- regulation of vehicles
---> denial of certain vehicle types, class, etc-
-----> needs economy to move up for this.

so, in a nutshell many things are connected to roads like in railways.
roads and railways is what modi sarkar needs to think big, and not just that.. but advanced.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jul 2015 20:54

merging from right is only possible if he were taking a U-turn at a gap in median. remember india is left hand drive.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jul 2015 21:03

Wouldn't they know the exact speeds of both cars at the time of the accident by now ? The merc will have data for sure. From the collision points one can also deduce who did what. Merc's driver side was hit and the alto has a lot of damage on the entire front. This should be a simple case to solve with existing info and eye-witness accounts maybe provides additional data to fill the gaps.

The alto driver is talking again to the media, maybe the help promised was below his expectations. The merc owner can clearly pay up to close the deal if they were over-speeding in that stretch. A life was lost, even if I fault the father for carrying the child in the front seat. Rest of the family escaped immediate threat to life at least.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 08 Jul 2015 21:03

Pratyush wrote:^^^

That is not the sad part. The sad part will be that Hema Malini will be forced to pay compensation to the dead child's family. By the esteemed justice system in the country.

I wouldn't jump to such conclusions. The rich and powerful in India have repeatedly planted such stories to cover their culpability. Lets wait for the full investigation.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 08 Jul 2015 21:29

Most likely Hema Malini's Driver would be over speeding. Speed limit is 80 Km/hr on most Expressways. Also I suspect faulty design of expressway. If there is a gap between two opposing lanes for turning, it needs to be designed properly so as to avoid turning vehicle to come in direct path of traffic. I think they would have made the gap in the divider without giving any indication of it or designing it properly. One thing is clear drivers, either Merc, Audi , BMW ir Alto, aren't not trained before getting license and hence a danger to road users. Merc.Audi and Beemers have high safety ratings so passengers could be relatively safe when colliding with smaller vehicles.

saip · Post by **saip** » 08 Jul 2015 21:31

On ORR in HYD it is 120 km.

Singha wrote:merging from right is only possible if he were taking a U-turn at a gap in median. remember india is left hand drive.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dausa ... ff4d9ec652

From google maps this appears to be the intersection. Alto going towards right and Hema Malini's car towards left. When Alto turned right towards Lalsot he turned into the path of Benz.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jul 2015 21:46

^^^ if you add even 3ft level shrubs to the median in such places, the vehicles turning into the highway will not be even able to see the oncoming traffic in the far travel lanes. Poor design as usual and no cheap fix.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 08 Jul 2015 22:51

Police have said the Mercedes was doing 140 kmph in an area with a speed limit of 45 kmph. She has claimed she was asleep and had not instructed her driver to go that fast. Time of accident 9 PM.

Personally I don't think this is a poor design for 45 kmph type highway. It could be improved with a wider central verge so vehicles don't have to cross 4 lanes in opposing directions in one go. Good traffic design always allows people to focus on thing at a time. But obviously would require more land.

But this not an adequate design for 140 kmph type speeds.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Jul 2015 23:49

I think the self driven cars can be of great help to desh.. in addition to the voice box like data embedded. cars have advanced, but certain advancements are basic requirements for desh.. which can't be luxury item.

mandatory technology that should be standard:
- collision avoidance and breaking system
- driver warning on closed eyelids for beyond 3 seconds or sleepy head pattern
- alcohol detection system and automatic ignition controls

etc.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Jul 2015 00:20

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Personally I don't think this is a poor design for 45 kmph type highway. It could be improved with a wider central verge so vehicles don't have to cross 4 lanes in opposing directions in one go. Good traffic design always allows people to focus on thing at a time. But obviously would require more land.

But this not an adequate design for 140 kmph type speeds.

I think this refers to legal limit of the speed. As you know these limits are seldom adhered to in India. Expressways are capable of taking speeds in excess of 180 or 200.KMPH. hence design should be for max speed. At least unmarked gaps should not be allowed in the median. I saw in many cases gaps were allowed due to political and public pressure and resulted in more accidents and deaths. That forced police to put cement blocks to close the gaps.

All expressways and NHs have plenty of available land with them to do simple design improvements.

All said and done I would blame both the drivers, the most and the license system. On GST I have been lucky several times due to sudden Ghost appearances of person, tempo, trucks bicycles, two wheeler, and what not. At some places design if fine.