Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 14 Jul 2015 02:18

India scouts for new deep sea rescue ship, in talks with Russia for latest model.

India is scouting for a new deep sea rescue ship to provide assistance to submarines in distress as well as to undertake underwater search. Several rounds of talks have taken place and presentations have been made to the Indian Navy, which is looking for a platform to assist both nuclear and conventional submarines in trouble, Russian shipbuilding officials have confirmed.

The Navy for long has operated without a capable submarine rescue vessel, as was evident during the recent search for missing Coast Guard Dornier CG 791. While the Navy used its submarines and hydrographic vessels to pin point the location of the aircraft that had settled on to the sea bed at a depth of 950 m, it required assistance from Reliance's Olympic Canyon to bring out the flight data recorder.

Even more alarmingly, the Navy has no platform available in case one of its submarines meets with a mishap underwater and would be dependent on American rescue equipment that will have to be specially flown in.

Aware of this deficit, the Navy is in the final stages of procuring underwater rescue vehicles but still does not have a fullfledged, modern submarine rescue ship in its fleet. The Indian Navy has initiated talks with Russia which will this year commission its new submarine rescue vessel under a new Project 21300 class.

"There have been some specific requests from the Indian Navy and we are taking them in account when offering a product from our side. A presentation was also made for the Indian Navy on board the first vessel of the P 21300 class at our shipyard," Alexander Buzakov, Chief Executive Officer of Russia's Admiralty Shipyards told ET.

While the first of the class rescue ship Igor Belousov will be commissioned this year, Buzakov told ET that it would provide assistance to submarines in distress with a capability of launching a manned mission to the depth of over 300 meters. The ship would also have remotely operated vessels that can submerge to even greater depths of 750 m and beyond.

"The ships displacement is about 6,000 ton and it includes a deep divers complex, two unmanned submersibles and rescue equipment. We would of course have no objections if the Indian side wants to equip the ship with submersibles of a different company," Buzakov said.

The top executive confirmed that the ship can perform rescue missions on both nuclear and conventional submarines. Russian engineers have also solved the tricky rescue problem that occurred when the Kursk submarine sank with 118 hands in 2000.

"It is no secret that in the Kursk incident, the conning tower had got twister and there was no chance to mate the rescue vessel with the tilted structure. Now, this problem has been solved with new technology on the P 21300," Buzakov says.

If the Igor Belousov was in service in 2000, the top executive says, several lives could have been saved on board the Kursk.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2015 09:24

This need for a DSRV has been pending for over a decade. The Brits have an excellent submersible that can be airlifted within a v.short time,but a rescue tender is also essential. The sooner a ship is ordered from wherever the better. In fact we should have rescue submersibles on each coast as time taken to get to a stricken sub is essential to save lives.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Jul 2015 09:59

Navy looks to Russia for three more frigates, as domestic shipyards lag

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 14 Jul 2015 10:13

Lag? The Shivaliks were delivered on time except for the U.S clearance of the GE engines. We have not forgotten the delays with the Talwar class frigates. A better bet is to add three more to the P17A's and take the order to 10 with each shipyard building 5 frigates each.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2015 10:44

This is excellent news.The Talwars are perhaps the most cost-effective frigates/destroyer type in the IN's fleet. As the report says,they will pack a huge punch,comparable to that of a light cruiser. The Grigorivich has some improvements over the Talwars,noticeably,the lower deck at the stern below the heli-deck is enclosed on the sides,perhaps for the fiercer Arctic weather conditions,but could also accommodate better TAS eqpt. If the innovative feature on the new corvette design is used,using a lift on the heli-deck to house the Kamov below,one could accommodate two Kamovs,a KA-31 and KA-28UG in the same hull,or even UAVs instead of the second helo This would give considerable added punch to the FFGs ASW capability,as much as a Shivalik on a smaller hull. Another report about the IN interested in the improved Shti-1 SAM,vert. launched ,could be part of this proposed deal.

Building them in an Indian yard would also be great as one could build a further 3 in the future. The class has proven itself and could certainly be the mainstay of the surface fleet,along with the planned 9/10 Delhi DDGs These two classes would be a very formidable combination. What is next needed is a cost-effective corvette/OPV design of around 1500+t,with ASW as primariy task.

I don't think that the extra Talwars in any way come at the expense of plans to build extra P-17As,for which some foreign yards have been approached for upgrading the ships.GRSE and MDL have been earmarked for the same (?),are full of orders and the IN is steadily heading towards the 200 ship/sub number. In any case even these are to be built in India and will benefit the pvt. yards,increasing their capability.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2015 10:47

IN has been scouting for a dsrv since the day i joined brf in 1998!! I wonder what is so uber secret that we cannot just buy a couple from uk, norway or whoever has it , along with a local rescue tender ship to deploy them.

we should build more P17 than talwar, its a bigger and better design with more room for future upgrade. if the cost of current fit is too high, make it a bit austere like the fremm's but go for big, spacious hulls and LM2500 engines.

for ASW ships a better son is to build more Saryu2.0 class cheaply with humsa, TAS and HWT to work together in a team with the P28 lead ships.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Jul 2015 11:06

Cross posting from Mil Acquisitions thread about the IN interest in more Krivaks...

nachiket wrote:^^I don't get this. If the Pipavav or L&T shipyards can build the new Russian frigates, why can't they be givven a contract for 3 new Shivalik's instead?

Karan M wrote:And why would the Russian experts create more competitors? What are the safeguards in place to prevent a HSL type case all over again?

nachiket wrote: Is there a reason that you can think of that the navy doesn't even seem to consider the prospect of more Shivaliks?

Karan M wrote:The report says time and that Talwars are well liked. IMO neither is a convincing reason, given time delay will occur with local production.

nachiket wrote: Exactly! If they are going to build those ships in India, they might as well build Shivaliks at whatever private sector shipyard they want. Very little chance of delays and unforseen problems since MDL can be ordered by the govt. to transfer all designs and knowhow to the selected pvt. shipyard.

Karthik S wrote:From the above link:
With these two occupied with building seven stealth frigates under Project 17A, Yantar will partner a private Indian shipyard.
Has the order been already placed for additional P-17A? If so, then the navy wants have two classes of frigates: 10 shivalik and 9 talwar.

nachiket wrote:^^P-17A is not Shivalik, it's the next class and the construction is supposed to start in 2017.

Karthik S wrote:That's what I meant, two classes 6000+ tonnes and 4000+ tonnes, Hope they begin construction in a way that all 7 can be inducted within 3-4 years as two shipyards are contracted.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Jul 2015 11:31

IMO, the long time lines for the induction of surface shims in the fleet is not because of the issues with the launching of the ship.

It is rather due to the lime taken to fit her out. I don't know, what are the components of the ship are fitted out post the launching of the ship.

But it is the most important reason why a ship is delayed. The Ship yard and the navy need to work together and figure out the reasons for the delayed fitting out of the ships and reduce the time taken.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2015 12:14

Look the IN needs more ships period.It has a goal of operating approx. 200 combat vessels by 2027. It is way behind target.Our yards are full of orders for the IN and CG. There was a report about L&T having built 27 out of 54 fast interceptor vessels for the CG. The sudden increase in PLAN subs/warships operating in the IOR has startled everyone in the region.The Thais plumping for Chinese subs is another negative development.We could soon have two Chinese bases in the IOR at Gwadar and at a Thai port in the A&N Sea.We need more capable multirole FFGs which have considerable ASW capability too.

P-17As are very much on order/required.The Talwars are excellent ships and have proved themselves over the years,most importantly is that the IN likes them and from previous reports it was the IN which opened discussion for 3 more over a year ago. More are needed.They're also going to be cheaper than P-17As,which will be even more expensive than the P-17s. These extra FFGs will also be built in India,in pvt. yards giving those/that yards experience and future capability to build desi designs. WE also have plans to build 4 amphibs.CSL could be the lead yard,it wants to build another Vikrant class CV,and the Vishal is slated for the future too. There is also a huge sub-building programme which will involve DPSU and pvt. yards. SSBNs of the follow-on Arihant class which will be larger and carry a true ICBM,the P-75Is,and the 6 desi SSNs. Add to this the plan to make India the repair/maintenance/support hub for the 20+ Kilos in the region.

Costs: A KOl class DDG last cost 3-4 yrs ago around $900M.A P-15B Vizag class DDG will cost around $1B. Total cost for 4 ships is reported to be $5B,that makes it $1.25B per ship.

P-17A Shivs to initially cost around $650M,total of 7 to cost $10B. That makes just one P-17A which is around 2500t smaller than a P-15B,around $1.40+B /ship,more expensive?!

A Talwar-3 class FFG today should be somewhere in the region of around $500M.We'll have to see what the fig. is when the deal is done,but if as hinted more advanced weaponry,etc. is going to be installed,then the costs would increase.

Time factor. Talwar/Krivak-5 class FFGs are being built within 3 years in Russia,extremely fast. The problem with our yards,such as MDL is that space has been a constraint,and our fitting out infrastructure is primitive.We've yet to master the art of modular shipbuilding,which the pvt. yards have factored in with their infrastructure from the start. If the deal goes through with a pvt. yard.,it would be interesting to see if a pvt. yard can complete the FFG as quickly as Yantar.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Jul 2015 12:44

^^If the ships are going to be built in India, why would they be able to build Krivak's faster than P-17s?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 14 Jul 2015 12:48

nachiket wrote:^^If the ships are going to be built in India, why would they be able to build Krivak's faster than P-17s?

Lesser tonnage! It would create a good mix of 4000 and 6000 tonne Frigates. Sometimes diversification is not a bad idea, especially if the ships will be made in India.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2015 13:22

That seems to be the intention.The P-17s took 10+ years to arrive,a v.long time.The B class even longer earlier,17 years! P-15s too are being built at the rate of around 7 years .If we can build a 4000t FFG around 3 years staring from next year,laying the keel of each at 6 month intervals,by 2020 we could finish the lot by 2020. There is also talk of upgrading the first lot of 3,surely with BMos SSMs and maybe a more potent anti-missile system,sonars and sensors.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Jul 2015 13:53

The length of build time has little to do with the tonnage of the ship. If you try to see the time from the laying of the ship to the time taken to launch her. The timeliness will be fairly competitive with the developed countries.

It is the fitting out of the ship, post launch, that is a time consuming activity for us. This is where the developed countries have us beat, in terms of ship building times.

Take care of this issue and you take care of the lags in ship building.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2015 14:05

well they seem to nearly complete the fitting out of the hull blocks before the modular sections get welded and floated out for final stage.

our hull sections are probably much more empty when its floated out.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Jul 2015 14:27

Singha, you are talking of the recent designs and construction methods. In this area as well, the recent Indian ships are competitive in build times, if compared to ship launch.

Shouldn't modular construction methods used for the P16A/B and the P17, reflect in shorter build times.

The time lines on wiki ought to substantiate the same.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 14 Jul 2015 14:46

The construction time of P17A's which is a modification over the Shivalik class is going to take 5 years. The Russians if allowed will creating another mess in Shipbuilding and delay it to eons. We cant afford another disaster. Already the Pipavav NPOV is delayed because of Russians disagreeing to provide the design and asking for cost escalations. So the best bet is to go for 3 more P17A's and a total of 10 build together. Will help bring down cost and help in commonality and faster building. Lot of other advantages including indigenous design, export potential etc.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 14 Jul 2015 15:01

Uddu,

Let's go one up on your proposal.

Lets give a long term cost +Fixed % escalation contract to more than one yard and have them split a complete 30 or whatever number of ships in a 10 year period. The class has to be common, the trim & fittings have to be specified at the outset of the contract it self. Or in batches of 10 ships a set.

Put a penalty clause for non performance.

I ma sure that we will start to see improvements in build rates.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 14 Jul 2015 15:04

The build rates are improving. Example can be the Vizag class. Also they have introduced new modular construction technique which will be used during the P17A build. So we can expect these ships to be build much more faster than the previous class.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2015 15:05

we really need to standardize on electrical systems, power plants, weapons , sensors , control systems across the fleet and build in lots of 6 or 8 rather than 3. all of these items are long lead and nobody keeps them in a shop given the cost, they are all built to order.

and we have the added complication of mixing together stuff from all sources, with no coordination between the OEMs at design stages.

just as its easy to get some HSR trainsets but hard to build the track and signals infra, its relatively easy to just build the hull and superstructure but hard to fit out such dense warships using equipment from all over in small lots.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Jul 2015 15:06

uddu wrote:Already the Pipavav NPOV is delayed because of Russians disagreeing to provide the design and asking for cost escalations.

WOW, how typical!!! When did this happen, got any links? Seems like you can't teach an old bear new tricks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2015 15:08

which russian NOPV design are we building?

our resident russophiles are great fans of their corvettes and opvs.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 14 Jul 2015 18:22

Russia wants to make India a global hub for submarine upgrade, maintenance and repair

Ukraine fallout?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 14 Jul 2015 20:23

RamaY wrote:Russia wants to make India a global hub for submarine upgrade, maintenance and repair

Ukraine fallout?

Garam hawa onlee.

People talking about build times and how the Russians are super quick compared to slow India, please keep in mind that the ships are to be built in India. And since we have already built 3 Shivaliks building 3 more identical ones will be conceivably faster than the original 3. Unlike the Grigorovich class which is a modified Krivak III and never been built in India.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 14 Jul 2015 22:05

I think its the appropriate thread. Its a 2-minute video.

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD
Salvaging Wreckage of Indian Coast Guard Dornier CG 791 by #RIL's Olympic Canyon. #Amazing! https://youtu.be/0Vz15OL0WY4 via @YouTube

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 14 Jul 2015 22:57

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/07/n ... -more.html

Surprised by the approach when talking about Navy when compared to article on Air force

India paid about $1 billion for the first three Talwar-class frigates, and a similar price for the next batch of three. However, the current trio could be significantly more expensive. This would partly be due to inflation, while building in India would further boost the cost.
This was a familiar convergence of interests between a penurious Moscow and an inefficient New Delhi.

With a displacement of just 4,000 tonnes, the Talwar class packs a considerable punch owing to a key Russian design strength: outstanding utilisation of space. The Russian designers even squeezed in torpedo launchers, which are only now being retro-fitted into the larger Indian Shivalik-class frigates

However, the greatest advantage the navy sees in buying Russian frigates is they would be delivered far quicker than Indian vessels. Sources say Moscow has offered to provide the first frigate within 2½ years of the order, while an Indian shipyard would take at least 1½ years longer.

And so because of inefficiency in local system and early availability of system, it would be fine for Navy to buy from Russia even if it may cost more

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 15 Jul 2015 00:28

India clears defence deals worth $4.7 billion, buys four Boeing spy planes

NEW DELHI: India cleared the purchase of close to 300 billion rupees ($4.74 billion) worth of new defence equipment on Tuesday, including four maritime spy planes from Boeing Co and hundreds of air defence guns, a defence ministry spokesman said.

The largest order approved was for 428 L-70 and ZU23 air defence guns worth around 169 billion rupees, the spokesman said after a meeting of India's Defence Acquisition Council.

The guns are to be manufactured in India, the spokesman said, part of the government's push to expand the domestic defence industry and end the country's status as the world's largest arms importer.

New Delhi is in the midst of a huge military modernisation programme, and analysts expect it to spend as much as $250 billion over the next decade, attracting western manufacturers who are battling cuts in defence budgets at home.

...
...
The purchase from Boeing, worth 43.8 billion rupees, is a follow-on order from an earlier deal for eight of its P-8I spy aircraft agreed in 2009 and comes as India looks to bolster its navy to check China's growing presence in the Indian Ocean.
...

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 Jul 2015 01:54

India shuns China, allows Japan in Malabar naval drill

NEW DELHI: Cocking a snook at China, India will now include Japan for its forthcoming Malabar naval exercise with the US in the Bay of Bengal in October. But India will host a separate bilateral naval exercise with Australia, which too was keen on joining Malabar, in September.

The Indian defence establishment had kept Japan out of the initial planning for the 19th India-US Malabar naval combat exercise, leaving it to the PMO to take a decision on the matter. With the Modi government now giving the go-ahead, the trilateral planning conference for the Malabar exercise is to be held at Yokosuka towards end-July. "The formal invite to Japan is now being sent," said a source.

Just before the Malabar drill, India and Australia will also hold their first-ever bilateral naval exercise off Vizag in the Bay of Bengal from September 11 to 21. The exercise will see Australia participate with frigate HMAS Arunta, tanker HMAS Sirius, submarine HMAS Sheehan, with India fielding a destroyer, a frigate and a tanker, apart from aircraft and helicopters.

China had lodged a strong protest against the 2007 Malabar exercise in the Bay of Bengal when they were expanded to include the Japanese, Australian and Singaporean navies as well. China had viewed the multi-lateral exercise as a step towards building a security axis to "contain" it in the Asia-Pacific.

The previous UPA regime had then restricted Malabar to a bilateral exercise when it was held off India. Japan was inducted into the exercise only when it was held in the north-western Pacific in 2009 and 2014.

With the NDA government assuming power last year, the Modi-Obama summits in September and January had agreed "to upgrade" the annual war games in the backdrop of both Japan and Australia being keen to join them on a regular basis.

India, the US and Japan are all wary about China's growing military capabilities and increasing assertive behavior in the crucial Asia Pacific region. But while New Delhi has been muted about it, both Washington and Tokyo have been quite vocal against China's aggressive behavior especially in the East and South China Seas.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jul 2015 10:03

India looking for more Talwar class ships: Navy vice chief

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/ind ... 30074.html

New Delhi: India is exploring the possibility of getting more Talwar class ships and was in talks with Russia to see if it acquire the technology for Grigorivich class frigates, the navy vice chief, Vice Admiral P Murugesan, said on Tuesday.

He, however, clarified that India will not be importing the ships.

"As per the maritime perspective plan, we have to build a certain number of ships in a certain time...we are exploring the possibility to expedite (acquisition of) certain number of ships," he told reporters here.He said exploratory talks were on with Russia, adding that "it will not be an import".

India has been stressing on domestic defence production under the Make in India programme, an important aspect of which is to get technology transfers and inviting foreign firms to manufacture in India.

The Grigorivich class frigates are improved variants of the six Talwar-class (Russian classification: Krivak-III) frigates the navy obtained between 2003 and 2013.

The maritime capability perspective plan of the Indian Navy envisages a 198-ship force by 2027, up from the current 137 vessels.

According to reports, Russia has evaluated three private yards for their potential to build these frigates: Larsen and Toubro`s Katupalli shipyard at Ennore, Tamil Nadu; Pipavav Shipyard in Gujarat; and Cochin Shipyard Ltd. (CSL) in Kochi, Kerala.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jul 2015 10:15

Read that Russia may transfer two frigates that are under construction in Russia for which ukrain has declined to supply engines.

Any truth?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Jul 2015 10:15

Why not let a pvt yard build a P17 A?

Or the follow up ship.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jul 2015 10:25

NRao wrote:Read that Russia may transfer two frigates that are under construction in Russia for which ukrain has declined to supply engines.

Any truth?

No , this is for new ships built in India

LakshO · Post by **LakshO** » 15 Jul 2015 10:32

Manu Pubby @ Economic Times: With six new nuclear attack submarines, India officially opens up on its undersea aspirations

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Jul 2015 10:58

The media report today also mentioned that 3 Delhi and 3 Talwars would be modernized with new Russian SAMs,obviously the improved Shtils mentioned in earlier reports.These would be the first batch of the DDGs and FFGs. Some radars/sensors would also be upgraded.One would also expect that BMos would be installed instead of the Urans.Looking at the inclined BMos launchers of a Rajput which was used for BMos trials,and still features them,one could install inclined launchers as well as VLS silos aboard the earliest Delhis if need be,as the 4 quad Urans would be removed.

It took so long for MDL to build the first batch of P-17s that there is no way that the time can be halved to even 5 years unless major infrastructure and management systems are put in place. The acquisition process of the MOD for components is also another great timewasting factor. The IN is fully aware of the situation as well as costs involved,Talwars compared to P-17As,which are to be more ambitious in design. Pvt. yards must first walk before they can run.The most sophisticated warships like the P-15s and P-17s should be built by DPSUs which have built such types/classes earlier,which should also aim for much faster delivery.Every DM including MP has spoken about this fact,long delays in naval orders .As said before,the IN wants both extra Talwars and P-17As.t is not a question of either Talwars or Shivaliks.Leave it to them to decide about their needs ,they've made their force projections ,requirements and where to acquire them from. They are the most hands-on service in the country and most practical of the 3.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jul 2015 11:21

Indian Navy aiming at 200-ship fleet by 2027

NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy is aiming to have a 200-ship fleet by 2027 as per a maritime capability perspective plan in order to guard interests and assets of the nation in waters around them, a top Naval officer said today.

The Navy, which has 137 ships and submarines under its command, has been at the forefront of indigenisation, and is also in "exploratory talks" with Russia to see if some of the ships can be built with their collaboration so as to "expedite" the process.

"There is a maritime capability perspective plan. As per that, there are certain number of ships that we have to build by a particular timeline. Today we have 137 ships and submarines... our aspiration is to become a 200-ship Navy (by 2027)," Vice Chief of Navy Vice Admiral P Murugesan told reporters here when asked about the force's aims.

On cooperation with Russia, he said the Navy was in talks for 3 Grigorivich-class frigates, an improved version of the six Talwar-class frigates the the Navy obtained between 2003-13.

"As of now, it is only in exploratory domain. As and when decided, it will be under make in India," he clarified.

The Vice Chief noted that the road ahead is not easy as on an average for every 2-3 ships inducted, one from the existing lot retires due to age, and underlined that navies have to be maintained and they cannot be created overnight.

"It is a catch up game. It will take time and it will not be very easy. I would like to see 200 ships. Wherever our trade and interest are taking place, we should take care of our needs in those areas," he said addin that India does not need 1,000 ships for that.

Murugesan confirmed that a high-level committee of the Defence Ministry has submitted its report identifying shipyards capable of executing the about-Rs 60,000 crore project of building the next six conventional submarines under Project P75I. A Request for Proposal (RFP) would be issued soon in this regard.

He also mentioned that an RFP would also be issued for the procurement of two deep-sea rescue vessels.

Asked if the Navy will go in for additional Scorpene submarines apart from the six being built currently in Mumbai, he said the answer can only be guesswork at the moment as the Navy will have to look into the entire capability and other ongoing projects like P75I and the building of six nuclear submarines sanctioned early this year.

The officer said the six nuclear submarines to be built will be finished in lesser time than what other navies normally take.

Asked about the delay in procurement of torpedos and helicopters for the Navy, he said everything was under process.

He refused to comment on India's nuclear submarine Arihant, which is expected to undertake missile test later this year.

The Vice Chief also refrained from disclosing details about the Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile, the next generation Barak missile, saying it would be "proved" soon.

The missile, being built in collaboration with Israel, is set to be be test fired from a ship soon.

Asked how the force was preparing against cyber attack, he said an elaborate organisation has been set up within the Navy to tackle the threat.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jul 2015 12:22

LakshO wrote:Manu Pubby @ Economic Times: With six new nuclear attack submarines, India officially opens up on its undersea aspirations

Rather than trying to build 6 SSN in under 15 years time frame , it better to bite the bullet at build 6-10 big SSGN of Akula or Yasen design in that time frame in Indian yards under TOT deal and gradually indiginise most components in 15 years time frame.

Alternatively asking the US to build similar Virginia class SSGN under TOT deal should also be good , Both Virgina and Yasen are excellent design and that is what we would need 15-20 years down the line.

We just dont need an SSN but really big subs with VLS capability to launch 20 + Missile and subs that can carry 30 plus torpedoes.Investing in 6000 T SSN wont cut the ice 15 years from now

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2015 12:32

amrika is not willing to share GE engine tech thats already 10 yrs old and they will allow license building their most advanced submarine and all its subsystems incl supplying the reactor?

only UK could get such a deal if it tried.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Jul 2015 13:02

I agree.The problem seems to be the capacity of desi N-sub design,esp. that of the N-reactor ,the main stumbling block. Smaller 6K t SSNs would also be cheaper than Akulas double their size. But as Austin has pointed out,and as I've posted in the intl td. the larger Akulas are still exceptionally quiet,an Akula was not picked up by USN last yr. when it patrolled off its cost for a couple of months,and carries a massive payload of 40+ missiles,torpedoes,etc.Their top speed is also supposed to be around 35kts.,diving depth 600m. If we are getting another custom modified Akula,with some Yasen features,it would best to opt for a few more of the same std.,build a fewer number of the same design here in India and instead concentrate upon building larger SSBNs to accommodate the larger ICBMs of 6000-10,000km range. Perhaps it is the cost factor.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 15 Jul 2015 13:09

^Then Indian Navy is not interested in screwdrivergiri. Their efforts are for the longterm and those plans cannot be satisfied by "license producing" a russian sub. For them it is as much important to design and build an Indian SSN as it is to have an SSN in the navy. This is how they are different from the import-loving IA and IAF.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jul 2015 16:42

When it comes to conventional submarine fleet we are already passed the stage of critical mass and we are short on Submarine number by a mile an half , the situation is far worse then depleting squadron fleet of IAF.

With nuclear submarine the things is far more worse , Arhiant is no where close to induction and SSN fleet is limited to single SSN ! We cannot afford to wait 15 years for 6 SSN when that number should have been in our fleet today.

Best option is to purchase a known design be it US or Russian and start building it and compress the time line to 9-10 years for fleet of 6 SSN or 2026 ...... The chinese are not waiting and are building new class of SSN , we need more bigger and better SSN fleet to fight the chinese and need it as quickly as possible

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Jul 2015 16:45

Singha wrote:amrika is not willing to share GE engine tech thats already 10 yrs old and they will allow license building their most advanced submarine and all its subsystems incl supplying the reactor?

only UK could get such a deal if it tried.

Even outright purchase is fine as Virgina subs are second to none and their yards are churning this out like sausages , We need atleast 3-4 subs for just 2 CBG , the numbers of SSN would likely rise and eventually we need a fleet of 10-12 SSN to dominate over our oceans