Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 17:43

No no I was never commandant for anyone. I was only Khalid and Karan's wazoo.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Jul 2015 17:43

If one wants to calibrate one's clock, it took 5 days from attack on Army to cross-border raid into Myanmar. Since there is a quasi-friendly government there, less-guarded border, and no nuclear overhang, it is very unlikely to be repeated on the western border.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 30 Jul 2015 17:46

Harpal Bector wrote:@Sid

Bhai seeing your confidence in these matters, you must be right. Per your request I will stop with the grandmother's stories. Maybe they are not relevant to the time we live in.

..................................................

No offense but for such tall stories you have to take aam forum junta in confidence first. You have to give something for everyone for believe.

Problem is all your theories/stories run in opposite direction to what we all know.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 17:50

Harpal Bector wrote:No no I was never commandant for anyone. I was only Khalid and Karan's wazoo.

Aha so you were Karan Thapar's personal peice of....., with Khalid the gaandmaster from Suhrawaddy Street joining in to make a threesome

All clear now.

sorry I meant grandmaster...just a typo onlee

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 17:52

@A_Gupta

Yes but decision to act was taken at a conference between PM, DSS and AD approximately 3 days after the main event.

The 5 days was because of the time taken by the LRRP to enter the target area undetected.

@Sid,

I find the held notions on this forum run opposite to the reality I was told by my grandmother. Could be a style issue, but it is true that as time passes what my grandmother did seems less relevant.

Now I am just trying to cheer people up a little bit as that is the best one can do at this time.

@Akshay Kapoor

No.. this Khalid and Karan (http://blogs.rediff.com/kashmirdiary/ca ... mir-diary/) Happy reading as this may have been before your time.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 30 Jul 2015 17:56

[quote="Harpal Bector"]Arre bhai - It is up to the PM do decide what to do - not up to you or me. We weren't elected by the people - Modiji was! Yeh unki zimmedari hain.

Harpal Sahab, Kshama kare, border ke is taraf log jimmedari bolte hain, us taraf jarur Zimmedari ho jati hai. Are you sure you are on the right side of the border.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 17:58

@rohitvats

sorry for delay in reply - just saw your post.

Yes - I am trying to get people here to see what I sense is going on. It is very difficult. As Sid points out - all that information is going contrary to the peoples' thinking here. The default assumption has become that Pakistanis are bunch of stupid inbred idiots who can never do anything this sophisticated. There is so much confidence in India's superiority over Pakistan that people don't get that India's rise over Pakistan's reach is going to make the Pakistanis more aggressive, vicious and cunning in their approach to things with India.

No one here has grasped the implications of the ease with which the ISI shook hands with Ghani regime on day one and then bombed the crap out of the blue zone on day two.

The NSA talks are not going to be much different.

@fanne

I don't think they have my beloved Bukhara pudina paratha on the other side of the border. Pardon my lack of sanskritic spelling. The vedically guided spelling guide memo was sent around the ministry but I was too stupid to keep track of all the paper that is piled on my desk.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 18:05

Absolute bs. No one assumes the Pakis are stupid. But your posts prove the point 'Its better to let someone wonder if you are stupid rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt'

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 18:06

@Akshay

Okay sir, I am sure you are much smarter than me, but are we clear which Khalid and Karan I was talking about?

was that before your time? I asked because your post made it seem like you had no idea who they were.

BTW.. not to nit pick or anything wazoo means chef (as in he who makes the wazwaan) in the land of the kilos.

You seem to think in Khan language. Ulanbatori is very different from Kilolandian.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 18:12

Well you told me - Karan Thapar and the Khalid from Suhrawady street.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 18:13

No - think kiloland not khanland.

I don't know where you have served. Hopefully you spent some time with the kilos and know something about their food. It takes a very long time to cook. But it is worth the wait.

Anyway what do you think of the SG(F) idea?

It will be just like the old days initially but things will come together much quicker.

A cyber component seems very critical. I don't know what can be done in that regard.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 18:16

I have read the blog. Very good, brought back memories of the time we were opting for arms. But that does not mean you are authentic. First you imply you were an advisor to the govt (IAS,IFS types), then you imply you were a fauji who has served in the valley (or rather a langar cook). Make up your mind. I know what a wazwaan is . Anyway I am reporting you as a troll.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 18:21

Akshay Kapoor wrote:I have read the blog. Very good, brought back memories of the time we were opting for arms. But that does not mean you are authentic. First you imply you were an advisor to the govt (IAS,IFS types), then you imply you were a fauji. Make up your mind. I know what a wazwaan is . Anyway I am reporting you as a troll.

Please do report me.

I just want to be clear I have nothing to do with Karan Thapar.

I would like to say I provided you lighthearted entertainment at a difficult time.

But I am very keen to hear what you have to say on the SG(F) idea. If implemented it will block the Grandmaster's efforts.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Jul 2015 18:26

^^^

The civilian bureaucracy has been one of the most obstructive entities in this regard, and I recall, during the peak of terrorism in Punjab, I was in constant and abrasive confrontation with the secretariat in Chandigarh and New Delhi.

Later, audit objections were raised against our efforts. We were bulletproofing vehicles for less than Rs 2 lakh, but were subsequently forced to buy them for over Rs 6 lakh.

This is the genius of the bureaucracy.

When we asked for comparable firepower, there was uniform opposition from the bureaucracy.

One joint secretary in the Union home ministry wrote that no such weapon should be given to a “civil force”.

Deep political patronage has sought to facilitate drug trafficking and smuggling of other contraband, and this has resulted in the regular movement of materials and men across this sensitive frontier, substantially with the collusion of some police and paramilitary personnel.

I thought it worth repeating.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 18:32

Actually A_Gupta, KPSG's point about the porous border makes me wonder. It could be that the reason that the GPS was turned on 5 days before the attack is that it was collected by a UGW via the usual pipe under the fence route and then turned on briefly to verify that it was still working. The GPS would then have been handed over to the attackers by this UGW.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 18:33

What I find most disturbing is that cops who fought terrorism are in jail and facing persecution.

habal · Post by **habal** » 30 Jul 2015 18:36

I suppose many of them mistook the mandate and endes up settling personal and family disputes in guise of combating terrorism. Whenever civil rights are given up ans carte blanche given there are always bound to be hr abuses.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 Jul 2015 18:40

Harpal bector ji: I deleted my previous ad hominem post. Formally apologize for attacking you. The feeling of inability to stop these hashish fueled robot got the better of me. I am not going to post in this thread for a while now as I do not have any helpful things to say.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 30 Jul 2015 18:42

Harpal Bector wrote: I would like to say I provided you lighthearted entertainment at a difficult time.

As samuel jackson's character from pulp fiction may have said "what you have written if very f***ing far from lighthearted entertainment". It is not "entertainment" to deliberately misinform people and confuse issues while pretending to have "deep inside info" that has "deep and complicated repercussions", and if you believe it is, you need to kicked in the nuts for it, metaphorically speaking.

You troll people with absolute garbage and then pretend you are trying to "teach everyone here" some really deep stuff we can't understand, like how the army postal service carries heavy weapons in their shorts without anyone knowing, and how pakistan is being run by super awesome strategerists who only put on the appearance of being violent aholes with a criminal mindset to confuse everyone, except you, of course.

If you really have something useful to say, I am sure you can do it without lame jokes about parathas or taking political potshots at the current leadership, or making up BS about how the previous leadership was about to bomb Pakistan after 26/11. If you are trying to play some psy-ops here, I think you should accept the fact that your nonsense is being exposed for what it is..absolute garbage.

munna · Post by **munna** » 30 Jul 2015 18:46

Akshay Kapoor wrote:What I find most disturbing is that cops who fought terrorism are in jail and facing persecution.

Even DGP Saini is being persecuted across various courts. To understand the amount of BILE reserved for PP officers just google these names* "Sumedh Saini Izhar Alam".

Sumedh Saini (DGP) and Izhar Alam (DGP) were scourge of Khalistanis during 80s and 90s.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Jul 2015 18:50

Grandmaster in Suhrwardy

First of all it is Khayaban-e-suhrwardy.
Second and finally, I call a BIG round BS to all that Harpal has been writing !!!

Harpal,
Did it ever occur to you that maybe GOI was gaming the Pakistanis?
After the army strike n Myanmar, all the high voltage performance on TV was to see how long it will take for the pakis to respond?
I must say, by your scale, it has been a whimper of a performance.
One month and a half! Surely the ISI and your grand master has ready suicide bombers right?

This guy is giving simply too much credence to an organization and to individuals who've displayed tactical brilliance and have consistently missed the bigger picture. If they had any iota of intelligence, they would have concentrated on nation building and not sponsoring terrorism.

This guy is writing dramatic things here, laced with hollywood movie terminology, which would be more suited in filmistan studio, mimbai or downtown LA.

habal · Post by **habal** » 30 Jul 2015 18:53

often when thinking of 26/11 I get the feeling that it was not a pure ISI operation but a joint operation with participation from all double-agents and sleeper cells that aastermind (not suhrawardy gm pls) could have managed and these sleepers who had open season for 1 day managed to settle personal vendetta on that day which involves elimination of disparate characters. ISI contributed a few fedayeen types and suicidists, I suspect many sleeper agents of other agencies just slipped away after creating havoc for a day.

Basically the idea was to prevent any consensus or agreement between Ind & Pak as MMS put it that they were almost finalized on track 2. If Headley was a local kingpin who bought all these disparate sleepers together then it would be imperitive to spirit him out of reach of India's hands to keep covers of all sleepers & double agents intact of which there may have been in plenty.

Gurdaspur on other hand is pure paki operation because they constantly cry about 'khalistanis' who are responsible even without taking a pause. Pakis can't even cover up or shut up when it is required, which betrays the height and peak of their prowess. Indeed a grandmaster hides behind such bewaqoof.

parikh · Post by **parikh** » 30 Jul 2015 18:55

@Harpal Bector ji , the forum is now halal again ?

If one knows the many avatar's of Bectorji , shy would come to Shri Jems Bond

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Jul 2015 18:58

This attack is a ham handed Pakistani attempt at what they think will revive terrorism in Punjab.
Turns out, the nincompoops they sent out couldn't even board a bus, their bravery / shivering-shitting-in-their-shalwars fear caused them to kill a roadside food vendor to start off the killing spree.
Who says RAW or the IB lacks intel assets in Pakistan hain ji? The names, villages of these people are probably at the NSA's desk by now. The planners' identity and the ISI handler's identity is probably known already

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 19:00

@ Tuvaluan

As Akshay points out - can an IFS/IPS/Fauji/cook exist? no... obviously that part is a joke.
Would any sensible person name where the SG's home base is? no - so obviously the 56 APO reference is a joke.
As A_Gupta points out Pakistan's grandmaster is ranked 2000000000 in the world. So obviously the Grandmaster of Suhrawardy Street can't be construed as a real person - that too is satire.
Potshots at Modivadis is like potshots at Gandhi family loyalists or snipes at babudom - it is good entertainment.
And the butter chicken reference is potshot at the Pakistan Army's famed anti-tank capabilities so visibly exercised in Azm-e-Nau.

My humor is trying to mask the much more bitter pill i.e. my assessment that Pakistan has come a long way since the tactically brilliant phase of General Musharraf. One is coping with a different Pakistan today than in ages past.

It is best to do some jingo-think about that.

The other issue I am bringing up is the SG(F) which takes Fidayeen alive. This is most likely going to be an extremely hazardous mission - far above normal risks that anti-fidayeen operations currently carry. Is this a risk work taking given that it might put an end to the deniability of fidayeen ops?

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 19:07

Gagan wrote:
Grandmaster in Suhrwardy
First of all it is Khayaban-e-suhrwardy.
Second and finally, I call a BIG round BS to all that Harpal has been writing !!!

Thanks, I knew I could count on you for help.

Harpal, Did it ever occur to you that maybe GOI was gaming the Pakistanis? After the army strike n Myanmar, all the high voltage performance on TV was to see how long it will take for the pakis to respond?

Yes, it did - because I was told by many Modivadis that super strategic baudhik was going on and that is why I asked the question - what if they are gaming you?

I must say, by your scale, it has been a whimper of a performance. One month and a half! Surely the ISI and your grand master has ready suicide bombers right?

Aah.. you might want to reassess that.

If this is Pakistan's response to the Myanmar raid, then they showed that the entire International Border is not secure and they can launch highly focused and deniable operation in the IA's backyard. It really doesn't matter how many are killed or how much material damage is done. If this is their point then it is actually very well made. They have launched an operation in an area that is critical to any chicken's neck pinching that might be on a tabletop somewhere.

FWIW - I don't think this is a response for exact timescales reason you have brought up - it is too long and too far away from the Myanmar twitter battle. The actual Myanmar battle had no impact on Pakistan, it was the twitter war that sparked Pakistani concerns.

This guy is giving simply too much credence to an organization and to individuals who've displayed tactical brilliance and have consistently missed the bigger picture. If they had any iota of intelligence, they would have concentrated on nation building and not sponsoring terrorism.

That is precisely what I am asking people here to reconsider. Am I offering too much credence or are people here giving too little credence?

@Parikh,

One does what one can to help.

The SG(F) idea should be vetted as neutrally as possible. People will support an idea for political reasons even if it doesn't make good sense in the real world. But if the idea is presented by someone who is clearly not in any political patronage stream, then it will be vetted more properly.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Jul 2015 19:25

There are only two types of intel that GOI needs on the Pakis:
1. What is the plan so that it can be thwarted.
2. Who are the planners, who are the pakistan army officers involved.

Then plan retribution

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Jul 2015 19:25

Harpal
Aah!
You're predictable.
And you're bulshitting too

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 30 Jul 2015 19:32

by Harpal Bector
IIRC that kind of mistake only occurred once on Indian soil at the high level, it was during 1984 when there was a scenario floated by someone that Jarnail Singh Bhindran was going declare the formation of an independent Khalistan inside the Harmandir Sahib.

Sir ji! There already was a Khalistan government in Exile in UK by Jagjit Singh Chauhan who later came to India and fought elections. There already was a press in Toronto printing Khalistani currency. There already was a Khalistani radio station from Bakistan. but what happened?

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 30 Jul 2015 19:36

Could one of the mods kindly do the needful and put this Bector guy out of his misery? It is tiresome to read long posts which are devoid of any value. This guy would be doing India a lot of service if he goes to Pak forums and wastes their time with his "Entertainment".

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 19:37

Dear Gagan

Thank you for your help.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 30 Jul 2015 19:39

@ ArunK,

No need for the mods to bother. I will go - I realize this is too much of an imposition on you all.

@SBajwa,

Yes - yes - but as Sid told me that is all my grandmother's stories. No one want to hear that here.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 30 Jul 2015 19:47

Harpal ji,
it seems you are battling many different posters at a time. And kudos to your courage and perseverance. But, I just want to point out that your central premise is weak.

Your whole series of posts seem to be based on a single premise: Pakistani Grandmasters are gaming this whole scenario to find out the time it takes for Modi Govt to react.

Now, everyone and anyone knows that this terrorist incident is a test for Modi both internally and externally.

But, your unique point is that this is to test the time-period it takes for Modi Govt to react.

Even if you assume that there is some great grandmaster sitting in Pakistan, the Grandmaster is only as good as the pieces on board. The problem for Pakistan is that it does not have pieces on the board.

- They have tried overt war and have lost massively. They know that they can't afford an overt war.
- Their economy is nothing. And therefore, they can't compare with Bhaarath on money front.
- Propaganda: ISI can of course launch a massive propaganda. But, these days, Pakistan has lost all credibility.

So,
- They can't fight overtly.
- They can't out-spend Bhaarath on money front.
- They can't out-shout Bhaarath on propaganda.

So, what is left?
- Terrorism -> Covert-operation.
- Nuclear threat -> Bluff to stop overt war.

And they are already doing this.

So, essentially, Pakistan is already using its full range of offensive capabilities which is Terrorism. There is nothing more Pakistan can do. This is the most they can do. And Bhaarath has not even given any response yet. And Bhaarath has full range of capabilities. BTW, this is the reason why Pakistan does not want to give up terrorism because terrorism is its only offensive capability against Bhaarath. Therefore, Pakistan is unlikely to give up terrorism voluntarily.

- Bhaarath can fight a full-scale war.
- Bhaarath can out-spend Pakistan.
- Bhaarath can outlast Pakistan in Propaganda.
- Bhaarath can even do covert operations if need be.

So, it does not matter if a grandmaster is sitting in Pakistan or if he is timing response of Modi Govt. Because Pakistan is already doing everything it can on offensive front.

The question is what will Modi do.

So far, Pakistan has survived for 70 years because of stupidity of Bhaarath's leaders, not because of grandmaster-giri of Pakistani leaders. And Bhaarath's leaders don't have to be grandmasters. They just have to use their commonsense.

rohitvats wrote: This act seems like an attempt to test the government response to a ‘non-regular’ terrorist activity where the temperature – as terrorist attack go - has been deliberately kept a bit low.

A good response from our side would be to send across a message that any terrorist attack – irrespective of its intensity – will invite response meant to inflict maximum damage. This will simply reduce the stupid notion of calibrated terrorist activity. Just create two categories – for something like Parliament attack, we go to war. Period. For anything below that, we will bust your balls.

Only thing that can 'bust the balls' is war. Pakistan can survive everything else.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jul 2015 19:49

Harpal Bector wrote: My humor is trying to mask the much more bitter pill i.e. my assessment that Pakistan has come a long way since the tactically brilliant phase of General Musharraf. One is coping with a different Pakistan today than in ages past.

It is best to do some jingo-think about that.

The other issue I am bringing up is the SG(F) which takes Fidayeen alive. This is most likely going to be an extremely hazardous mission - far above normal risks that anti-fidayeen operations currently carry. Is this a risk work taking given that it might put an end to the deniability of fidayeen ops?

Yes. This idea, along with the idea of finding out the names of all the Fidayeen's relatives is a very good one because, as you say "Pakistan has changed" and is now a different Pakistan.

In the past when we found out everything about a captured Pakistani they would deny it and tell us to bugger off.

But now this new Pakistan will accept what we say and instantly stop 90% of terrorism in embarrassment. the other 10 % will die laughing.

Of course Bectorji is on my ignore list as I am on his. But this I couldn't resist. there are others who will read this - maybe even PMO and get ideas from me and I get the credit.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jul 2015 19:50

As soon as DGP Saini decided to have the terrorists killed around 12:30 pm the identification was done.
Rest was time to clean up with PP SWAT.

HB If your core point is ISI has changed it tactics of not leaving a calling card then why beat around the bush and be declared a defacto troll?

Capturing a terrorist is useful in some cases and is left to local commander.
No need for a special group for that.

Constable Omble did not need nay special group training.

Indian Police do that all the time as needed.
Other times they shoot them dead.

This terrorist attack has doen nothing for the ISI and TSPA.

Talks will go on.
As for response time and all that I did comment NaMo does not have the pressure to act as MMS and ABV had to in earlier times due to magnitude of the mayhem.

The three alert people: railway man, bus driver and the constable who picked the rifle and shot at the terrorists who panicked and holed up in the police station all saved the day. They are the three man SG(F) or whatever you say.

If you want to stick around use clear precise language.
No more innuendoes, and glorifying pigs. Being on BRF cant have that.
You have managed to upset quite a few members.

So consider this a caution.

Thanks, ramana

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 30 Jul 2015 19:52

@ H Bector

If that is what you want to do. The other option is to recognize that nobody is buying what you are selling. Your "Style" is getting on many people's nerves. Take a hint and stop. Perhaps change your style of presentation if you have something to contribute.

habal · Post by **habal** » 30 Jul 2015 20:03

As per pakjabis themselves:

RAW & IA MI support covertly
1. Mullah fazlullah & moral support to Mangal Bagh section of taliban
2. balochistan liberation army, talal bugti & brahmdagh, Mengal and Marri tribes
3. Sindhis of all manner excluding mohajirs and talibilm of karachi, Sindh Liberation Army.
4. Deep inroads into Jamiat tulaba, jamaat-e-islami and deobandis.
5. Potoharis esp in and around Chattwal.
6. Seraikis and those with sense of alienation.
7. Aim of RAW is to have one agent in every pakjabi family. Alliances are encouraged between UP muslim and their extended kin settled in pakjab.
8. Awami National Party and Asfandyar Wali are beleived by pakjabis to be on RAW/CIA payroll.
9. Altaf Hussain wishes he were on RAW payroll.

Is there any section of society uncovered.

compared to such spread of resources where does pakistan find itself.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Jul 2015 20:04

Sigh. People need to look up Walter Mitty.

Kind of sad really.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jul 2015 20:08

Also as I said before and it got drowned in the rhetorical posts, the attack is by TSPA regulars.
The lack of traceability, identity, no claim by any group show its a covert action.
Not a terrorist attack by some disgruntled group.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 30 Jul 2015 20:12

I really dont think this guy HB is genuine. He has stumbled upon a good blog by an ex Para SF offr who was involved in CI Ops in the valley. And he is implying that he was part of their unit or some other unit working with them. BS ! Before that he was implying he was an advisor to the govt.

No fauji worth his salt , especially one who has served in CI Ops in the valley would advocate the 'no evidence' and 'don't respond' and 'MMS was a tactical and strategic genius ' nonsense he has been advocating.