Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

niran · Post by **niran** » 31 Jul 2015 09:56

UlanBatori wrote:The GPS sets are probably worthless misinformation. First, these days why do you need anything more than a tiny Garmin or a Nokia phone (no subscription or even SIM needed)?

phone GPS uses phone signal(possible onree through SIM card) and WiFi signal to triangulate saar, not the sat signal a true GPS device uses most easy to trace hence onree GPS devices used, besides, a kore komandu would not want his komadu to be distracted getting touchy feelly with ayisha on mission, would he?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Jul 2015 10:15

Ha! u al wong thele onree. Phone GPS is for sissies. Welcome to the world of True Style and Sophistication. My Nokia uses its own gee pee ess sensor. I can assure u, my phone plan does not. C a predecessor's specs:
http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_5230-2909.php
This is much cheaper and Nokia GPS is VERY VERY good. Voice guidance in chaste Mongolian through the yak-tracks of the steppe. Totally free, which is why I use it, of course. Unfortunately Microsoft bought them, so no hope.

niran · Post by **niran** » 31 Jul 2015 10:27

but sir, the link says "A-GPS" which is assisted GPS which is assisted or augmented with cellular signal not stand alone GPS chip.which means Indian SIM once on this side, moi still wonders how available is wifi signal available in border area and the status of RAA agint listening/monitoring devices connected to Indian phone and wifi network, hence tellolist no can use phone GPS onree stand alone GPS is hallal.

yippe! it is the first taime moi have come up with something to contradict sir UB let us see how long it last

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 31 Jul 2015 10:28

^^^UB ji, fikar not. Nokia HERE/Maps/NAVTEQ is still owned by Nokia not Mickey$ though soon to be owned by Herr Otto Kompanies. niran-ullah, your phones do use the "real" satellite GPS even if in A-GPS mode otherwise it wouldn't be called GPS no? A-GPS is used to get faster locks and more precise positioning especially in urban areas where you have pakis like multi-path effect so its a fall back mechanism basically. Sorry but you don't get the pleasure of dhobi pachad-ing UB ji

member_28025 · Post by **member_28025** » 31 Jul 2015 10:32

Anyone read this article by KPS Gill? He seems to be holding the Central Govt. in part responsible for the Gurudaspur attack.

Surprised at Gurdaspur

You don’t prepare for terrorism after it has happened. And you don’t just learn from your own experience.

Written by K P S Gill | Published:July 30, 2015 12:00 am –
There is great excitement in the media over two aspects of the Dinanagar terrorist strike: One, that hard evidence in the form of GPS coordinates proves the terrorists came from Pakistan, and that they were in possession of night vision devices with US government markings; two, that the NSA-level talks are going to proceed as scheduled, but “terrorism” is going to be on top of the Indian agenda for discussions.

These are far from the many and urgent issues that are raised by this attack. An investigation is ongoing, and it will certainly uncover significant evidence over time that will point overwhelmingly to Pakistan as the source of this attack. There should be little doubt that this doesn’t matter in the least. Pakistan has engaged in terrorist proxy war against India for more than 30 years; the cumulative evidence of this is overwhelming and has been shared with Pakistan and the world; none of this has had any impact. India will have to learn to effectively defend itself.

As far as “talks” are concerned, this is an ongoing charade that will lead nowhere. Great hope is being invested in the NSA talks — but what results have the recent discussions between Prime Ministers Narendra Modi and Nawaz Sharif produced? There have been talks and the disruption of talks for decades.

There are other issues that are far more important. The most significant of these is the degree of visible unpreparedness in a sensitive border district like Gurdaspur, in a state that has itself experienced over 13 years of the most virulent terrorism, and that adjoins another state that is still the target of a 26-year-old Pakistan-backed proxy war. Even the Special Weapons and Tactics (Swat) team was not wearing rudimentary protection at Dinanagar. Unless a crisis is immediately at hand, institutions are simply pushed into degeneration and decay, robbed of resources, deeply politicised, or just allowed to deteriorate through sheer neglect.
It is useful to recall that Punjab Police had been forged, in the late-1980s and early 1990s, into an efficient and fully equipped counter-terrorism (CT) force, with each thana provided adequate capacities — protection, transport, weapons and the limited technological tools then available — to respond to any challenge within its jurisdiction. Clearly, these systems have crumbled and, were it not for the courage of those who fought terrorism at its peak and who still serve in the police, the state’s capacity for response would now have been virtually non-existent.

Indeed, even in crisis, security forces face an uphill battle in securing the most basic resources and capacities. The civilian bureaucracy has been one of the most obstructive entities in this regard, and I recall, during the peak of terrorism in Punjab, I was in constant and abrasive confrontation with the secretariat in Chandigarh and New Delhi. Confronted by continuous ambushes and attacks, we repeatedly asked for bulletproof vehicles, but received no response. So we went ahead and improvised. Some old and condemned Ambassadors were recovered and bulletproofed, and were found to be extremely successful. Later, audit objections were raised against our efforts. We were bulletproofing vehicles for less than Rs 2 lakh, but were subsequently forced to buy them for over Rs 6 lakh. This is the genius of the bureaucracy. Significantly, at Dinanagar, the police had to borrow bulletproof vehicles from the army to approach the building under siege.

Again, when the Khalistanis got the AK-47 from Pakistan, Punjab Police was stuck with antiquated .303 bolt-action rifles. When we asked for comparable firepower, there was uniform opposition from the bureaucracy. One joint secretary in the Union home ministry wrote that no such weapon should be given to a “civil force”. There was a misconception that such weapons could be used to quell protests, without realising that not every policeman was going to be issued an AK rifle.

What is not realised is that you don’t prepare for terrorism after it has happened. You must be prepared at all times. And you don’t just learn from your own experience. States across India have been attacked by Islamist terrorists. Yet, each state is caught by surprise and pleads that the “Centre had not provided intelligence” or “resources”. As if state governments have no responsibility. And when the Centre asks for any dilution of the constitutional allocation of “law and order” to the jurisdiction of the states, there are (rightly) shrill protestations from all chief ministers.

The entire Punjab border with Pakistan was fenced during the terrorism years. Heavy patrolling and constant vigilance reduced direct infiltration to an easily manageable trickle. But today, while the fence still stands, there is increasing laxity in surveillance and oversight. Deep political patronage has sought to facilitate drug trafficking and smuggling of other contraband, and this has resulted in the regular movement of materials and men across this sensitive frontier, substantially with the collusion of some
police and paramilitary personnel.

The Centre must also share at least some of the blame. Punjab has been downgraded in terms of support for expenditure on security, and the Central scheme for police modernisation has also been scrapped by the Modi regime. This is despite the fact that the IB is constantly issuing warnings that Punjab is a “sensitive state”.

Dinanagar is just a sign of threats to come. The regional and global environment is deeply troubling, and Punjab is a frontline state. It is crucial that the CT capacities of Punjab Police be restored. All police stations along the international border, in particular, need to be strengthened. Crucially, the issue of morale also needs to be addressed. No attention is paid to the fact that dozens of police officers and men who fought terrorism at its peak continue to languish in jails, and many others are still facing interminable
and mischievous prosecution.

There are proliferating threats of a global Islamist terrorism today. It is high time that concerned citizens, the media and elements in the political constituency made a concerted effort to bring substantive issues of CT policy, strategy and tactics to the fore, instead of wasting efforts on high-decibel nothings.

The writer, former DGP, Punjab, is president, Institute for Conflict Management, and publisher, ‘South Asia Intelligence Review’

- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... JxO3W.dpuf

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 10:56

<Post pest-e-shaheedized>

Multiple mods have asked multiple times to stop feeding the troll or discussing the trolling. Please stop. Next one ignoring the laal jhanda will get the danda. TIA.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Jul 2015 11:16

Mods excuse the gustaak, but Harpal Bector's posts actually have valuable information.

If his posts here are typical of Indian bureaucratic thought processes as he was suggesting, it gives us some clues as to the character and intellectual propensities that have been driving India's Pakistan policy into a ditch all this while.

Here is what I am seeing:

* excess cleverness : senseless bandying about of fundas like "escalation thattee" or something.

* love of complication and nuance for its own sake: Dinanagar is a test, Dinanagar is a ladder, it is a laddoo, a whole speculative sh1tload of unknowables of questionable value; anything but "Dinanagar is enemy action which is just like zillions of previous actions by the same enemy."

* weird and pointless interest in being an advocate for Pakistan : "But the yindoos have not given any broof! Just trying to defame bakistan onlee!" Why not leave the lies and whines to the bakis?

Now, if I call someone's post needlessly complicated to the point of uselessness, the onus is on me to provide a simpler alternative that makes some kind of sense.

So...

This thing with pakistan not that hard or complicated, or even an interesting challenge, not after so much accumulated consistent data. (Daily pakistan visits are harder and more complicated in comparison) After all this time, even the meanest intelligence (quite distinct from cleverness) should be capable of formulating a valid and useful policy doctrine: namely,

1. Our attitude towards Pakistan: Pakistan is presumptively guilty unless able to produce compelling evidence of its innocence. And

2. Our model of Pakistan's attitude towards us: Pakistan will always assume the worst about us, regardless of what they say outwardly at any point in time, and regardless of what we do with them, for them, or to them.

(Yes, of course bakis are rational, but anyone who doesn't understand that rational frameworks are founded on axioms--item 2 above being one of the axioms of baki rationality--is a semi-educated dolt like rahul gandhi who throws around words like "rational " because he thinks it makes him sound superior and knowledgeable)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 11:26

UlanBatori wrote:The GPS sets are probably worthless misinformation. First, these days why do you need anything more than a tiny Garmin or a Nokia phone (no subscription or even SIM needed)? Do they provide differential GPS down to 0.1m precision? Surely not needed. They must have terminal area photos memorized, so getting to the general vicinity is enough, and that can be done with a cellphone. So why 'GPS sets'? I realize that these aces are madarssa grads, but still any brat these days knows how to use phone GPS.

Because phones require SIM cards for dataplans to bring maps up and probably, they dont have easy access to local guys feeding them SIMs of local connections. Makes one think that despite all talk of ISI reach and depth, its probably not that much. If you get a local map database, again probably need somebody to pay for it locally or international may get traced thanks to payment mechanisms.
Or they want to protect local sources. And these missions are run independently by sub contractors aka jihadi tanzeems without access to local sources.
The issue is clearly not of money, as a dedicated GPS>>> a sim card.

Secondly, all these deep analyses on why the Pakis did this. Come on, there is a simple expanation. They have some 139 million terrorists. At least once a month they have to has SOME action other than buggering each other, hain? So they go out and shoot at Indian Polis, try to derail a train, shoot at a bus. Go to houristan. Equivalent of a Boyz Saturdin Night.

Read history. Pakis have been stealing cows, killing villagers, nonstop since 1947. Israelis have the same experience with their kind neighbors. No common factor implied of course.

That is the most logical and simplest explanation.

Its basically this. They keep trying, we keep stopping, some get through.

The difference is that the Modi govt seems to actually care about stopping so its taken time.

During MMS's time, there was a chain of attacks through the years with significant high casualty count.

The Pak military supports these attacks to keep both their domestic Indian Govt and the Indian on the backfoot.

Our aim would be to figure out how to make the Pak military and its jihadi chamchas realize what it means to bait a tiger.

All the rest of the mental-e-jugglery by the walter mitty type who appeared on this thread is meaningless.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 11:47

A_Gupta wrote:shiv asked:
As a change of subject, let me ask a question

1. If Modi goes to Pakistan who will guarantee that he stays alive?
2. If Modi is killed in Pakistan, are we going to nuke Bakistan? With Indians making Bectidiotic arguments and possibly MSA and Dogvijay dancing with joy at Modi's death - who is actually interested in following up with some action oif Modi gets wajib up qatl in Pakistan?
There is no guarantee, and so I hope that he does not go. Since more powerful nations like the US and China have had their leaders not go to Pakistan - delay or cancel their visit - because of security conditions, there would be nothing out of the ordinary for PM Modi to change his mind in 2016. And remember, he accepted a visit for SAARC, not for a real state visit to Pakistan.

You said it. There is no need for India to risk Modi and Pakistan is well within its deranged mind to attack him, given what he can do for India's growth and how deeply they despise the thought of India progressing.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Jul 2015 11:51

Karan M wrote:
You said it. There is no need for India to risk Modi and Pakistan is well within its deranged mind to attack him, given what he can do for India's growth and how deeply they despise the thought of India progressing.

Pakistan is not deranged. It is a rational actor. It is a rational course for it to kill Modi and shed crocodile tears.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Jul 2015 12:02

So I still say that the **ONLY** point of the attack, if any, was to convey those intact "GPS sets" with wrong leads. As in: Look! Look! It was Abdul's 6th coujin Anwar, located at Sargodha, bomb target coordinates xxxxxx yyyyy. Karan, see proof above: my phone produces voice guidance even in remote places where there is no cellphone signal.
So if the Pakis had bought cheap Nokia phones, they would avoid having origin traced etc. And you have to grant that Paki mission planners are at least smart enough to know that. The sh1ts probably came from Karachi.

niran · Post by **niran** » 31 Jul 2015 12:42

^^^^ this gives me another idea WRT to the why GPS and not Sasta Sunder Tikau (SST) Nokia phone

- phones have unique identity embedded (but dunno about GPS) so must be a biiiiig no
- phones are not supposed to withstand the rigors of infiltrating the LoC and then some more while killing (supposedly) ebil banias
- more likely who gonna waste a phone on about to die tellolist those phones will be good on me ayisha those GPS are free courtesy unkir

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 13:20

Ulan Batori wrote:So I still say that the **ONLY** point of the attack, if any, was to convey those intact "GPS sets" with wrong leads. As in: Look! Look! It was Abdul's 6th coujin Anwar, located at Sargodha, bomb target coordinates xxxxxx yyyyy. Karan, see proof above: my phone produces voice guidance even in remote places where there is no cellphone signal. Yes, it asks me whether I want to try to connect to a cell network for A-GPS, but like I said, I don't have any subscription that allows that.

One needs a SIM to turn on a phone. Next, one needs a dataplan or a cached app with inbuilt map system for GPS to correlate to.
Both require planning/investment in getting folks to either procure locally or spoof and get from someplace to mislead authorities in India and probably US.

In contrast, you can get a COTS Garmin receiver which can do all the above and probably even a US/NATO standard one from some arms bazar full of NATO truck stolen goods which are apparently dime a dozen in NWFP/FATA and everyone uses them.

So zimble answer and no need to get into more complex answers.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 13:22

niran wrote:^^^^ this gives me another idea WRT to the why GPS and not Sasta Sunder Tikau (SST) Nokia phone

- phones have unique identity embedded (but dunno about GPS) so must be a biiiiig no
- phones are not supposed to withstand the rigors of infiltrating the LoC and then some more while killing (supposedly) ebil banias
- more likely who gonna waste a phone on about to die tellolist those phones will be good on me ayisha those GPS are free courtesy unkir

Very valid points. These guys on one way ticket missions would only be given enough to make sure they get the job done and don't get distracted or call back " ijj there no other bhay to get houris apart from getting blown apart, questions sirji".

Having said that, there is bound to be some amount of local help and effort in getting these pigs inside India and directing them someplace.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 13:23

KLNMurthy wrote:
Karan M wrote:
You said it. There is no need for India to risk Modi and Pakistan is well within its deranged mind to attack him, given what he can do for India's growth and how deeply they despise the thought of India progressing.
Pakistan is not deranged. It is a rational actor. It is a rational course for it to kill Modi and shed crocodile tears.

Fair point. They are truly afraid of him and what he can do for India which makes it imperative he does not visit Pakistan.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jul 2015 13:25

also the dedicated gps device will have a much more powerful battery and much better gps antenna than a smartphone. good ones are often used by surveyors and civil engg crews out in the wild.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 Jul 2015 13:37

Hand held GPS is prolly more versatile.
You can prolly put in waypoints for goat loving jeehardi to religiously follow.
Otherwise abduls have a propensity to enter the nearest goat shed and make-e-mess of themselves.

Nokia phone has another feature that Jernails in suharwardy street don't want.

Music.
Given a chance all goat loving abduls will be listening to bollywood songs and the errr spirit of Jeehard will be diminished.
Moi has a nokia phone too, which is used to listen to music, doesn't have a sim card. But it needs data for the map to load. There is not enough memory dedicated for a preloaded map.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 Jul 2015 13:40

<poof>

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 Jul 2015 14:27

Karan M wrote:
Ulan Batori wrote:So I still say that the **ONLY** point of the attack, if any, was to convey those intact "GPS sets" with wrong leads. As in: Look! Look! It was Abdul's 6th coujin Anwar, located at Sargodha, bomb target coordinates xxxxxx yyyyy. Karan, see proof above: my phone produces voice guidance even in remote places where there is no cellphone signal. Yes, it asks me whether I want to try to connect to a cell network for A-GPS, but like I said, I don't have any subscription that allows that.
One needs a SIM to turn on a phone. Next, one needs a dataplan or a cached app with inbuilt map system for GPS to correlate to.
Both require planning/investment in getting folks to either procure locally or spoof and get from someplace to mislead authorities in India and probably US.

In contrast, you can get a COTS Garmin receiver which can do all the above and probably even a US/NATO standard one from some arms bazar full of NATO truck stolen goods which are apparently dime a dozen in NWFP/FATA and everyone uses them.

So zimble answer and no need to get into more complex answers.

A phone doej not need a sim to turn on. Any phone with a wifi connection these days can cache a route, then provide voice guidance. No cellular connection needed -- ever.

Phones do have identifying informashun -- for emergensy reajons they are always talking to all towers. They leave a footprint behind. A GPS doej not. Al-china bland GPS is probably cheaper than the cost of hiring the naiee to shave chhati.

It is assumed there are phones also in the mix. Just that the route planning was via GPS. Or so I read and conj-e-k-chur.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 Jul 2015 14:33

Singha wrote:also the dedicated gps device will have a much more powerful battery and much better gps antenna than a smartphone. good ones are often used by surveyors and civil engg crews out in the wild.

Days gone by. Todin, it makes no differense unless sub-meter akkurasy bin militaly grade cygnal is needed. Even there, only in certain dark espots doej a specialized unit fare better. Like in a boat, moar than a few miles from shure.

Le GPS waj a. no identofying informashun, b. deniability. All subs-e-criber bin pest uf phone have to provide fingerprint data, other hoops for regular uje. Le SIM becomes a broplem. And there are phones in the mix too. Just no in buplic domain.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 14:35

Shreeman wrote:A phone doej not need a sim to turn on. Any phone with a wifi connection these days can cache a route, then provide voice guidance. No cellular connection needed -- ever.

Been a while but the fonewa I've had needed the sim to unlock the functions. Even otherwise, that's provided the local abduls can get a tech savvy guy to do all this and train the aam abduls at short notice since they might have to change things on the fly, which might also set up red flags if he is regularly contacted. In TSP land, one hand doesn't want the other hand to know, even if the other hand is tacitly/overtly supporting the first hand.
This BTW is current state of affairs regarding smart phone use and what not: http://propakistani.pk/2015/06/18/pakis ... artphones/
GPS probably has 1-3 targets stored and aam abduls drilled on it all the time till they can get whats happening.

Phones do have identifying informashun -- for emergensy reajons they are always talking to all towers. They leave a footprint behind. A GPS doej not. Al-china bland GPS is probably cheaper than the cost of hiring the naiee to shave chhati.

Agree with first two points. But regarding price, I don;t think these guys will skimp on that as versus the PR for a successful attack.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 31 Jul 2015 14:57

<"poof!" Harpal Bector, despite his girth, dived behind the Sonata and looked frantically around for the sniper wearing an Admin cap, as his post vanished in a cloud of pixie dust..... >

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 31 Jul 2015 15:08

Harpal Bector wrote:<"poof!" Harpal Bector, despite his girth, dived behind the Sonata and looked frantically around for the sniper wearing an Admin cap, as his post vanished in a cloud of pixie dust..... >

Sorry didn't realise what was happening. My mistake. Thanks for the heads up.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 16:00

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 74459.aspx

Soon after three Pakistani terrorists entered the Dinanagar police station in Punjab’s Gurdaspur district with their weapons blazing on Monday morning, Union home secretary LC Goyal called up Punjab director general of police Sumedh Singh Saini, offering to send a team of NSG commandos to help eliminate the threat.

Official sources said Western Army Commander Lt General KJ Singh too sent a Special Forces team to counter the fidayeen (suicide) team and support the police effort.

However, after discussing the matter with National Security Adviser (NSA) Ajit Doval, Saini, a veteran of Punjab militancy, politely declined any outside help to tackle the three terrorists holed up inside the police station.

Officials said Gurdaspur SSP Gurpreet Singh Toor, SP Balijit Singh and local policemen engaged the gunmen, sending out the message that Punjab Police was capable of handling the operation.

With the state government’s lone helicopter located in Amritsar, DGP Saini left in an unmarked Innova for Dinanagar with a local police escort at around 8am.

The threat to Saini from Khalistani terrorists is rated to be of the highest level and he usually travels in a bulletproof Toyota Fortuner with a 20-car cavalcade, said sources.

Maintaining close contact with the NSA, he took over command of the Dinanagar operations by noon, with instructions to capture a terrorist if possible.

Doval spearheaded counter-terror operations in Punjab in the 1980s and has a good working relationship with Saini since then.

On reaching the spot, Saini immediately asked for a security cordon from nearby Amritsar and Batala to prevent any chances of the terrorists escaping.

With the gunmen firing explosive ammunition from AK-47 rifles, Saini sent for a dozen medium and light machine guns along with 200 grenades from the Punjab Armed Police (PAP) ordnance depot in Jalandhar, and made preparations for floodlights and night vision devices in case the operation extended beyond dusk.

Sources said every effort was made to capture at least one of the three terrorists, with superintendent of police Baljit Singh losing his life in the attempt but, by around 3pm, Saini concluded that the attackers would rather kill themselves than be taken alive.

A quick consultation with Delhi by the DGP was followed by a dynamic response from police with personnel lobbing grenades and firing continuously into the rooms where the gunmen were hiding. The operation was over by 5pm with all three Punjabi-speaking terrorists gunned down.

http://www.dailyo.in/politics/gurdaspur ... /5371.html
July 27th – a day after the nation celebrated Kargil Vijay Diwas – saw yet another terrorist attack launched from Pakistan being foiled, and many lives were lost in doing so. This strike was different in that it targeted Punjab.

Originating from Pakistan, as confirmed by the home minister, the attack was an attempt to open another front – this time in Punjab, perhaps to ease the pressure being felt by terror outfits in Jammu and Kashmir. The attack was the usual ISI-orchestrated attempt to make it seem like a strike from lumpen elements of the Khalistan movement, to forment discord and hence a police station was made the target.

Punjab is no stranger to terror attacks, having combatted insurgency for over 20 years, finally stamping out militancy in 1993. The police, starting with the legendary KPS Gill, have built significant capabilities. The response of the Punjab police contrasted with the paralysis of the Mumbai police on 26/11, except for isolated acts of heroism and the initiative personified by sub inspector Tukaram Omble. The difference between the two terror strikes was clearly the response of the police and citizenry.

The determination of the Punjab police to use their own teams to flush out the terrorists was commendable. Despite some visible deficiencies, they have provided the rest of the nation with a viable model. Specialist forces like National Security Guard (NSG) cannot be everywhere and always take time to deploy from their base - especially, at the early stages of a terror attack, when our responses should be the swiftest.

Every one of our experiences, like 26/11 massacre or the IC-814 hijacking, have snowballed into major confrontations or capitulation because of sluggish early responses. That is what makes the first response - from our local police forces - critical to how a terrorist attack shapes up or is blunted. Here, the Punjab police signalled its capabilities effectively – as a far more effective first responder than the Mumbai police was during the 2008 attacks. That is the future of our fight against terrorism – better equipped and trained specialist teams in our state police forces as the first line of defence, backed by special forces of the NSG and the Army if the situation requires.

The other hallmark of the Punjab attack was the role of two ordinary citizens who turned heroes that day. One was the vigilant railway man Ashwani Kumar, who raised an alarm after spotting pressure bombs on the Pathankot-Amritsar railway line moments before a train with more than 200 people could reach the point. The other was the Punjab Roadways bus driver Nanak Chand, who refused to stop for the terrorists who were trying to flag down the bus, since he found the heavily armed “soldiers” suspicious. His intuition saved the lives of the 80 people on the bus. The casualties of the terror attack would have been higher if it weren’t for the two alert citizens.

The role of citizens and the state police in foiling a terror attack shows how far we have come from 26/11, when Mumbai and its people were brought to their knees by a group of terrorists waiting for the NSG to arrive from Delhi.

In the months after 26/11, I had chaired a committee with some of the country’s best security minds - including the current NSA Ajit Doval. Our panel's report on national security and terrorism had stressed, among other things, the use of technology as well as the importance of local police as effective response to terrorist attacks. Such retaliation, as shown by the Punjab police, raises the chorus on the benefits of equipping and training the police force better. However, more needs to be done to modernise the response and intelligence. Without a proper platform to rapidly integrate, analyse and deliver intelligence (both Sigint and Humint) to local police forces, our counter terror strategy will remain vulnerable. This logic should be extended to the hinterland, which is prone to attacks, as we saw in Gurdaspur.

In addition, better police cover is required and that means states must recruit more police personnel. With more than 900 vacancies in the IPS cadre alone, and our Police Population Ratio is at 138 (fifth lowest among 71 countries for which such data is maintained). UP leads the race, with more than 50 per cent of the posts in the police force lying vacant. The government needs to expand our police forces before it is too late, and crime and terrorism get a strong foothold.

The latest terror strike is a wake-up call for all state governments that we continue to live in uneasy times, and if we are to defend ourselves, we need to urgently transform our police forces and bolster them as the first responders who must deal with the clear and present danger of terrorism.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 Jul 2015 16:51

Karan M wrote:
Shreeman wrote:A phone doej not need a sim to turn on. Any phone with a wifi connection these days can cache a route, then provide voice guidance. No cellular connection needed -- ever.
Been a while but the fonewa I've had needed the sim to unlock the functions. Even otherwise, that's provided the local abduls can get a tech savvy guy to do all this and train the aam abduls at short notice since they might have to change things on the fly, which might also set up red flags if he is regularly contacted. In TSP land, one hand doesn't want the other hand to know, even if the other hand is tacitly/overtly supporting the first hand.
This BTW is current state of affairs regarding smart phone use and what not: http://propakistani.pk/2015/06/18/pakis ... artphones/
GPS probably has 1-3 targets stored and aam abduls drilled on it all the time till they can get whats happening.

Phones do have identifying informashun -- for emergensy reajons they are always talking to all towers. They leave a footprint behind. A GPS doej not. Al-china bland GPS is probably cheaper than the cost of hiring the naiee to shave chhati.
Agree with first two points. But regarding price, I don;t think these guys will skimp on that as versus the PR for a successful attack.

Deniability is built into the price.

Al-nato bin western walid devises have device ids and material tags and shipping informashun and when it was looted and by which haqqani properly documented.

While it ij true that enuf material haj been stolen and stok-pilled to run the 14 day waar over the last 10 years, the GPS ij likelee to be hanji-bin-tall mountain manufakchuring ltd consumer device. Sofistikated matiriyal makes denial a wide, very wide river to bridge.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 31 Jul 2015 16:53

Karan M wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 74459.aspx

That is what makes the first response - from our local police forces - critical to how a terrorist attack shapes up or is blunted. Here, the Punjab police signalled its capabilities effectively – as a far more effective first responder than the Mumbai police was during the 2008 attacks.

I don't agree with this part, it is not right to make this comparison. I think the Bombay Police did what could reasonably be done at the time and the PAPC has always been better armed and more combat indoctrinated due to the terrorism problem in the 80s. This is like comparing kashmiri apples to konkani mangoes.

- but otherwise this article confirms my sense that AD was the source of the "get one alive" order. It is most likely with an eye on greater leverage at the NSA meet up.

Please don't poof this post - this is the point I had made in the poofed post. A live fidayeen strengthens the hand that holds him.

<POOF> A redflag with "HB" written on it is a very attractive target.....

To Ramana's question about who is the audience - It may be that "evidence" is not presented at all in dossier form, it is simply leaked to the media and the meeting is held against the backdrop of this kind of implied allegation. Now the opposing side has to face the prospect of negotiating from a weaker position.

I respectfully ask you all to reconsider the SG(F) idea - I feel it is a high risk to ask the boys to take but the payoff seems quite high.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 17:00

There is a huge streak of megalomania, self praise and "look at me, look at me" running through your posts which detract from whatever points you attempt to make.

>>I don't agree with this part, it is not right to make this comparison. I think the Bombay Police did what could reasonably be done at the time and the PAPC has always been better armed and more combat indoctrinated due to the terrorism problem in the 80s. This is like comparing kashmiri apples to konkani mangoes.

So? Whatever the reason, the fact is that the Punjab police was far more responsive and better suited for the task.

>>- but otherwise this article confirms my sense that AD was the source of the "get one alive" order. It is most likely with an eye on greater leverage at the NSA meet up.

Ah, so it went from incompetent Modis and his tweetiya folks to "your sense that AD" etc.

<POOF..... Everyone, do stand down. Self-references and replies to self-references. We are aggravated - Admin>

>>I respectfully ask you all to reconsider the SG(F) idea - I feel it is a high risk to ask the boys to take but the payoff seems quite high.

Not your risk clearly and no skin off your nose when one of those "boys" is killed implementing loony tune stuff.

Need of the hour is more prosaic. Get our regular units and state forces equipped and trained well with rapid response capabilities (including transportation) and automatic processes in place simplified as well for quick decision making.

All this holding fedayeen stuff etc is pointless and will become another dossier type exchange/shaming attempt unless we retaliate either overtly or covertly. All the rest is semantics.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 17:06

Shreeman wrote:Deniability is built into the price.

Al-nato bin western walid devises have device ids and material tags and shipping informashun and when it was looted and by which haqqani properly documented.

While it ij true that enuf material haj been stolen and stok-pilled to run the 14 day waar over the last 10 years, the GPS ij likelee to be hanji-bin-tall mountain manufakchuring ltd consumer device. Sofistikated matiriyal makes denial a wide, very wide river to bridge.

Its even better for LeT etc if a GPS is traced back to NATO. Trail gets even more muddled. See see, it was Al Taliban al ISIS from Afghanistan who did this etc etc. Most of what LeT uses is nowadin from local arms bazaars apparently.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 31 Jul 2015 17:13

It is correct that PAPC were better suited to the task but their response time is about the same as what Bombay Police did. The casualties in Gurdaspur were low because it is less populated area. It is not fair to make this comparison.

Bhai I don't want to fight anyone. I am using words Shiv has invented since everyone here seems to enjoy his style of posting. There is a certain way of thinking that I am aware of. That way of thinking appears to still be at work even after a great political shift.

Not your risk clearly and no skin off your nose when one of those "boys" is killed implementing loony tune stuff.

Okay that is a fair criticism but is it that much worse than other ideas that people seem to have? all this aar paar ki ladai, dash-to-the-indus isn't going to be a no-cost affair?

Your point about GPS tracking to Nato is well made. The current story from Pakistan has been that there is no connection between Afghan Taliban and LeT. Clearly an American GPS or NVG in LeT hands will disprove those claims and create a visible material link between the two groups

@moderator - point taken.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 17:15

shiv wrote:Precisely.

Remember what Clinton did? A surreptitious visit in a decoy plane.

Modi should not go to Pakistan. Having Modi killed in Pakistan will leave us with the same dilemmas that we have after the last 5000 Indian deaths caused by Pakis.

If you look at a report you have posted (I will respond separately) - the Pakistanis are saying that we should "be cooperative" in responding to the Gurdaspur killings. That actually means "Both India and Pakistan are facing terrorism from the same groups and we must cooperate" A perfectly reasonable request untill you realize that the groups who are doing the killing has Pakistani sate support which is denied by the state.

Now if Modi is killed in Pakistan what would we do?

BJP will be in a fix and their political opponents aided by the MSM will do all they can to spin the issue and give the ISI/PA plausible deniability. In short, we wont be able to do much unless somebody like Shah takes over and cracks the whip.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Jul 2015 17:18

So the GPS and the NVG are both for provocation? Let's get back to the idea that this attack was to stop the Modi visit. Why are they interested in stopping the Modi visit? Is Sugar Thief going to give Dawood and Syed Hizb-ul-sh1t-e-Muzzfarabad in cages to take back? What is there for the PA to fear in a Modi visit?
Alternatively, is it Sugar Thief showing that he can say

to banias? To impress whom? Because it just cut into any kindness he might have expected.
I am just left feeling that Pakis conduct terror attacks because that is what Pakis do. What is the solution? Banias move into TSP and buy up the madarssas? Turn them into goat-farms employing ex-soosai-bummer-wannabes? That might be the thing that can scare PA.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 17:24

Harpal Bector wrote:It is correct that PAPC were better suited to the task but their response time is about the same as what Bombay Police did. The casualties in Gurdaspur were low because it is less populated area. It is not fair to make this comparison.

It is completely fair to make this comparison as the Punjab Police senior leadership led from the front as versus Ghafoor who per several accounts was nowhere to be seen or completely ineffective.

In short, the Mumbai Police or any police force has a lot to learn from the Punjab Police's response.

Bhai I don't want to fight anyone. I am using words Shiv has invented since everyone here seems to enjoy his style of posting. There is a certain way of thinking that I am aware of. That way of thinking appears to still be at work even after a great political shift.

You have been engaging in a funny Walter Mitty sorta act in order to rile those with different viewpoints up. Since this is a very civilized place, few called you out.
Seriously, what kind of adult does this as versus letting his data, facts, arguments speak for his conviction?

If there is a certain way of thinking you don't like, you always have the option to go to some place, where that line of thinking is appreciated (gratuitous praise of/ascribing mythical capabilities to imaginary terrorist plotters f.e., because that's exactly what your posts come across as). You have made your political likes/dislikes very apparent. Folks on this board don't ascribe to your preferences, so you have to live with it.

Okay that is a fair criticism but is it that much worse than other ideas that people seem to have? all this aar paar ki ladai, dash-to-the-indus isn't going to be a no-cost affair?

Losing people in constant battles of attrition to capture people of dubious value as versus losing people once and then buying peace for decades together as India did post 71. Apples to oranges. Whether it is possible with current equipment, financing, capabilities is a different issue. There are other ways to make the terrorists fear the state.

Your comments about capturing fedayeens is equivalent to shaming/naming strategies which will result in squat if Pakistan continues to believe it has no costs to bear and if other countries just ignore the issue thinking India is weak and can't handle its own affairs.

At the end of the day, we know where these guys came from and we have to do what we must.

Your point about GPS tracking to Nato is well made. The current story from Pakistan has been that there is no connection between Afghan Taliban and LeT. Clearly an American GPS or NVG in LeT hands will disprove those claims.

Actually the US knows very well the veracity of Pakistan's stories (and what rubbish they are). If its in their interests to acknowledge anything publicly, they will. Otherwise they won't. India getting one GPS or whatever in any terrorists hands won't help us do much. It will however as always help Pakistan muddle the waters.

They can even trot out a few of their bad Taliban with NATO GPS and say see, we face the same opponents.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 31 Jul 2015 17:28

Gurdaspur attack: ISI trained terrorists at Thailand-Myanmar border for 10 days

and btw how can one expect taking anybody alive if alternate type of ammunition isn't used, like stun grenades but then the sponsors can always choose to keep the foot soldiers in the dark.

my preference would be to capture the ops live by the authorities by dropping cameras close to the terrorists and record the audio visual.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 31 Jul 2015 17:30

UlanBatori wrote:So the GPS and the NVG are both for provocation? Let's get back to the idea that this attack was to stop the Modi visit. Why are they interested in stopping the Modi visit? Is Sugar Thief going to give Dawood and Syed Hizb-ul-sh1t-e-Muzzfarabad in cages to take back? What is there for the PA to fear in a Modi visit?
Alternatively, is it Sugar Thief showing that he can say to banias? To impress whom? Because it just cut into any kindness he might have expected.
I am just left feeling that Pakis conduct terror attacks because that is what Pakis do. What is the solution? Banias move into TSP and buy up the madarssas? Turn them into goat-farms employing ex-soosai-bummer-wannabes? That might be the thing that can scare PA.

UB, the deep state in TSP conducts terror attacks to show that they run the show and not their two bit Shareefs and what not. The Shareefs use this so called deniability to plead for more concessions from India even as their country attacks India. From our perspective, this nuanced, he said, she said business is all BS by now as all of them are a bunch of crooked liars and we have to deal with the whole fandango in a united fashion. Otherwise they'll make baboons of our Indian intellectuals many of which have been baboons judging by the incompetence of the Indian state in dealing with Pak terror in decades past.

Harpal Bector · Post by **Harpal Bector** » 31 Jul 2015 17:55

Dear Karan M,

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on the comparison issue. Generally speaking I will attempt to steer clear of contentious issues, I hope you will do the same.

Losing people in constant battles of attrition to capture people of dubious value as versus losing people once and then buying peace for decades together as India did post 71. Apples to oranges. Whether it is possible with current equipment, financing, capabilities is a different issue. There are other ways to make the terrorists fear the state.

Yes, there are other ways is this way that much worse than what is proposed by others? The notion of unacceptable costs and uncertain gain is clouding the perception of this option. In the context of this SG(F) option, what can be done to make the costs of this option seem just as acceptable as that of other options? is there some technology that might be critical to achieving a level of acceptability?

They can even trot out a few of their bad Taliban with NATO GPS and say see, we face the same opponents.

That was my reading as well. So with that in mind - what link can one make between the LeT and the Gurdaspur attackers that will be considered "overwhelming"? That currently remains a bit of a gray area.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Jul 2015 18:01

From the pov of the Pakis, time may finally be running out, even in DupliCity. Moditva may pull an "out-of-the-box" stunner, tuned with Doval's help to freeze out the jarnails from the Big Biz deals. I don't know.. A joint Indo-Iranian front against the ISIS? Indo-Chinese against terror? Hopefully there is SOME thinking in Dilli to keep Afghanistan from falling into TSPA hands again?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2015 18:02

KLNMurthy wrote:
Karan M wrote:
You said it. There is no need for India to risk Modi and Pakistan is well within its deranged mind to attack him, given what he can do for India's growth and how deeply they despise the thought of India progressing.
Pakistan is not deranged. It is a rational actor. It is a rational course for it to kill Modi and shed crocodile tears.

I was thinking, what sot of guarantee can an abomination like Pakistan give that they will not kill our visiting PM. They are already saying that they are suffering from terrorism for which they need cooperation not criticism.

I mean - suppose a US president visits Iran and gets bumped off - are we in India going to break off relations with Iran and bomb them?

Same way if Pakistan bumps of Modi everyone will shed crocodile tears and then it will be back to bijness. It's not as though Pakistan can be punished by international disapproval and opprobrium

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 Jul 2015 18:07

I too don't see the point in PM-e-yindoostan visiting TSP. Surely he has advisors?

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 31 Jul 2015 18:09

Harpal Bector wrote: 1) The Machiavellian system of ruthless duplicity enshrined by Gen. Musharraf in October 2001 has become a core strategic principle of Pakistan's national security state in a manner it never was before.

"Ruthless duplicity" it seems. Unless one is a completely worthless cretin who cannot read newspapers or pay attention to a few hundred/1000 terrorist attacks that took place in the 1990s, they would not make such stupid statements.

Here is some news for you, pakistan had been killing people in India since 1990 with the same "ruthless duplicity" you managed to detect a decade later and only because of Musharraf, apparently.

Generations of Pakistani officers and the entire intelligence machinery there have become trained in the fine art of embracing you just to stick a knife in your back.

Yes, yes, and the sun rises in the east in some parts of the world. So let me ask you this quetion again and see if you will actually answer it with some pointers instead utter BS like the above "answer".

"What are these changes in the Pakistan army today that make it more dangerous than it was a decade ago?"

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 31 Jul 2015 18:21

Harpal Bector wrote: So with that in mind - what link can one make between the LeT and the Gurdaspur attackers that will be considered "overwhelming"?

"overwhelming" what? "evidence"? To whom? Pakistani courts? Indian prime minister? And why LeT and afghan taliban? Is it very difficult for the LeT to call themselves "Lashkar-e-Bakri" and wear badges proclaiming as such, especially given that there are only about 23583 terrorist groups running around in pakistan. And here I was thinking that you actually managed to let the difference between intelligence and evidence, and their value in different contexts...but obviously not.

Looks like we are back to the same nonsense about evidence mongering, because once a bunch of tools who are "part of the Indian bureaucracy with connections to the military on the internet", hand over this evidence to the prime minister, he will immediately convene a meeting of higher ups and provide an immediate response to Gurdaspur attack and blame the LeT for it. Is that brilliant plan that is cooking behind this "serious question" being asked above?