Many dead, including Police SP in Gurdaspur Terror attack

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Aug 2015 22:10

A_Gupta wrote: Just blowing up a few Pakistani officers, jihadis or assets doesn't accomplish much.

That is not correct. The people who sanctioned this need to be paid back in kind.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 01 Aug 2015 22:51

eklavya wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: Just blowing up a few Pakistani officers, jihadis or assets doesn't accomplish much.
That is not correct. The people who sanctioned this need to be paid back in kind.

Sure, by all means the payback should be there, it is not an either-exclusive-or situation. I'm simply saying the effects of the payback will not be enduring.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Aug 2015 23:09

^^^^
Sir, the Pakistani terrorists that crossed the border were killed. So far so good. The Pakistanis who trained these terrorists and sent them to India are also terrorists, they are the main terrorists.

I don't harbour any fantasies about eliminating the terrorists once and for all. Its not possible, while their ideology endures, and this ideology shows no sign of weakening it grip. One could say looking at the state of the Islamic world that extremism is very much in the ascendant. There is nothing India can do to bring these people to their senses.

What we can do is retaliate against people we know have killed our fellow Indians.

Y I Patel · Post by **Y I Patel** » 01 Aug 2015 23:14

This is in some ways a response to Gagan and Shiv since they quoted me, but also a follow-up to keep my views manageable and relatively bite-sized.

Let's start with the truism that it is very, very important to understand the situation your enemy is in. I am primarily following this in explaining some big picture aspects of security context that Pakistan now faces. It should have been obvious, but my post is in no way ment to justify or condone what happened, even if I am way wrong in speculating that Pak Army was not directly responsible. The main purpose of my post is to counter the base assumption here that Pakis are in control and engineer these events to some intent which needs to be divined and retaliated against. At worst, this kind of thinking leads to HB's theme that Pakis are now much more proficient at whatever they do and that there is, somewhere, a mastermind that crafts the event to a fine level of calibration. HB is actually a personal friend, but I will say that this line of thinking is way out of touch with reality and I am using the substance of my post to make that case. PA is as incompetent and criminal as ever, and Pakistan is immensely weaker and in a much bigger mess than it was 10 years ago.

If you want the pith of what I said, it is that we should not assume Pakis to always be in control and responsible when something like this happens. The current reality is that they are getting screwed, royally, by multiple parties (and India is undoubtedly one of them). Seeing the hand of a mastermind or the purposeful actions of malevolent and uncontrollable cabal that answers to no one is in my view inconsistent with the reality of incompetent, short-sighted, self-serving policies creating a situation that will out of its own logic cause severe stresses and ruptures to the very establishment that engendered and implemented those policies. If India wants to not support an enemy in trouble than I am all for that, and I would be in violent agreement with any approach that leads to further deterioration in that criminal entity's situation. But I would hope that the Indian establishment keeps the totality of the context in mind to minimize own costs and maximize benefits. As A_Gupta perceptively suggested, one promising possibility would be to hold the Pak Civilian government's feet to fire to prove that a terrorist attack originating from Pakistan territory was not actually the responsibility of the Pak Government.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Aug 2015 01:55

YIP, GOI already gave that impression with statement saying Pakistan is not responsible for this attack.

Will lead to more fractures.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 02 Aug 2015 02:12

habal wrote:btw Malik Ishaq was bumped off because he was getting closer to ISIS.

Thanks. I always appreciate these definitive reports coming straight from ISI HQ. But how do you know that incident was reported honestly? It makes no sense if you read the first report. All later reports are of course even less honest.

All v were told was that the terrorist and his sons were killed (no proof of that either). Plus at least 9 other ppl. Those 9 were not CALLED terrorists (why? wouldn't it have been such a herrowic victory for Pak Polis?), so 99% chance that they were police/military.
Later report said that the motorcycle terrorists "freed" Ishaq (how? they gently persuaded the polis escort to See Da Light and Change Their Ways?) and then the Polis 'informed' the SSG or whatever, and those ppl got in their Al Khalid Mark IV Portolets and cruised along until they met up with the terrorist motorcycle gang, and shot them all dead. But many terrorists escaped.
So what are the facts? 3 terrorists of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (L-e-T renamed when L-e-T name was put on Phoren Terrist List by DupliCity State Dept) were pest-e-sha'eeded. Plus 9 Pak Polis. On July 29. In Pakjab.
U c what I mean/don't mean/vehemently deny? Karma.

The proper course is to have huge Dossiers built up with the daily flow of information. Use them to prioritize and optimize what is needed for basic National Interest. Have operations ready for the prioritized ones. Then as 'opportunities' arise, select one off the list and do it. IOW, it is no longer "reaction", "proportionate" etc, just "aha! shukriya phor the aappartunity onlee".

And let Karma take its course. Bhavitavyam Bhavet Eva. All is Illushun onlee.

And then GOI gives a reassuring pat:

Don't worry onlee, Sugar Thief! U r not in tot Top 100 List. Yet.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 02 Aug 2015 03:47

Pandu's like HB are still vomiting same crap, so I believe there is concentrated propogandu to deflect any future actions to a police BS of dossiergiri and capturing tango's alive :

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... hem-alive/

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 02 Aug 2015 03:58

A_Gupta wrote:A superpower couldn't defeat Vietnam or bully Cuba into submission.

neither could another superpower the afghans. reason is obvious - they were not as brutal as was necessary. Moreover they were the kauravas (i.e. adharmics side). India is a much more humane country with humane people. If India goes to war with pakistan with the objective of breaking it up, India would be on the side dharma. We will witness a 1971 redux. Nobody will give a damn to pakistani troubles and losing sindh and baluchistan at that time. their sins are slowly approaching the threshold just like 1971. or so I hope.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 02 Aug 2015 04:10

shiv ji: we want to control our <x> haters just as a matter of principle. It is practical ethics and pragmatic morality which has been captured by PM Modi in the pithy slogan "sab kaa sath sba ka vikaas". We should not do it because of quid pro quo from anybody least of all pakistan. Are you saying that same thing in your excelent "psyhco-profiling" post above?

Another point is that we Indians as a people have moved on from the days of old Nagpur. It used to be that if any hindu woman is molested in anyway, a few prominent muslim heads from molesters' muhalla and khandan are mounted on stakes and displayed prominently for all to see as to what would happen to those who play with hindus. At about the same the same people when visit their relations in Nizam controlled areas, all the ladies go into purdah.

Today there is really no need to take such extreme measures, is there? Govt. of any stripe does protect the citizens to a reasonable extent from internal criminals/terrorists/rapists/kidnappers/murderers. It is impossible to bring crime rate to 0 even in if India turns into a rama rajya.

Only threats on which we do not have complete control are threats emanating from outside - especially Pakistan and to a lesser extent Bangla Desh.

Just snap all relations with Paklistan for 5 years. I am 100% certain we will see the results. Question is is it feasible. If not why not?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Aug 2015 04:56

krishna_krishna wrote:Pandu's like HB are still vomiting same crap, so I believe there is concentrated propogandu to deflect any future actions to a police BS of dossiergiri and capturing tango's alive :

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... hem-alive/

Essentially Monday morning quarter backing.
Ignores fact that PP tried till 4 pm and decided to finish.

So bokwas advice.

What evidence and for whom?

State sponsored terrorism is war and not criminal court domain.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Aug 2015 05:22

A_Gupta wrote:IMO, Indian covert operations should have as a goal to engineer scenarios that result in a Lal Masjid-like situation or the situation with US drone strikes, where the Pakistani Army and a substantial number of jihadis become at loggerheads. The damage these guys subsequently do to each other greatly dwarfs anything else India might be able to do. Just blowing up a few Pakistani officers, jihadis or assets doesn't accomplish much.

After a long time I agree with something you said.

However, in a war of ideas (yes, the war is always about ideas - done in physical realm), it's not just enough to defeat other's idea. It's equally important to establish that your idea is the most naturally sustaining & empowering idea for the followers.

When translated to physical ream, this means that it's not just sufficient that we facilitate Pakistan's implosion. It is equally important that we establish that it's Hindu-India which facilitated that implosion and can repeat such magic everytime Pakiness araises in its sphere of influence.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 02 Aug 2015 05:35

Arun,

Dosa-e-aire diplomacy is being recommended widely. As you would note, including by the sekular media overlords. Your post preceded the comment, thus provided the dosa-e-aire part context. Unrelated however, yes, BRF, like all socialmedia is now a hot air escape vent.

Guddu,

Yes, I am well aware of the Utter Pradesh influence. But one responsibility of being in office is discretion too. This appears to be a foreign concept to el-leader-bin-UP. Everybody is kaka hathrasi the moment they are elected.

If you cant say it, dont hint at it. Its like showing up to a family restaurant dinner in a bikini. Not kosher. Titilating if you are so inclined. Not illegal. And no end of supporters and oglers if you command a pair of resources. But clearly inappropriate.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 02 Aug 2015 06:33

bottom line is GOI is in no position to control these kind of acts, as they do not want to take panga with GOP. they all give statements and thats it.
all this chest thumping and bravado, for what. these kinds of things have been happening and will happen again and GOI should prepare a lot of press statements in advance. its almost like the standard press statement coming from GOP after a drone attack. india no better than that. they know india cannot wage a war and they will keep doing it. people thought that after new GOI gave little more free hand to the army, paskitan will be taught a lesson, infact they have taught GOI a lesson

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Aug 2015 07:16

the next set of TSP/Talib supremos will be dynamic people in their 30s under ISIS flag.
the jalaluddin haqqanis, mullah omar, lashkar e jhangvi have been declared dead.
whether dead or not their orgs are being retired and allowed to wither away.
LET . HUm. Huji, JeI have done precious little for TSP except blow hot over the last decade, their leaders live in comfort.....these underperforming and sub-par resources will be let go

the new CxOs will be less amenable to control or accepting the TSPA-ISI as the overall theater commander.

we can expect harsh attacks on India, but also more opportunity to lash out openly...ISIS would want TSP as part of the
caliphate under their Emir, not being a kept dog of the TSPA.

its time to build up both cover Shin bet/KGB type capability to go after high value persons and conventional x-border strike capability.

just one single successful taking out of a senior bhai/terror masiha will send shockwaves around the world. the left-sickular establishment who function as their legal and media cell here will thrash like being tasered for 3 days.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2015 07:32

vayu tuvan wrote: Just snap all relations with Paklistan for 5 years. I am 100% certain we will see the results. Question is is it feasible. If not why not?

I agree with the principle of this and would love to discuss details.

One difficulty I have in my mind when I think about doing this is to think of counter points that the government would offer to oppose the idea - assuming I was in a debate with them and they were willing to discuss this issue with me.

As far as my knowledge goes, the types of arguments that are offered on the question of downgrading relations with a terrorist state are more rhetorical than fleshed out information. In short the idea is dismissed by GoI without discussion. For example, the reasons I hear as to why relations with Pakistan should continue are something like these:

They are our neighbours and we cannot afford to stop talking. They affect us whether we like it or not
Many Indians have family links and relatives on both sides apart from religious pilgrimages and consular relations are essential
Both countries stand to gain by improving trade relations
You cannot cut off all links - that will allow others to step in to our detriment
Our people are culturally so similar; we share a heritage of common music and arts and Bollywood is very popular in Pakistan

I have some concerns about these excuses and I will voice them here:

They are our neighbours and we cannot afford to stop talking. They affect us whether we like it or not

Talking has not prevented terrorism. Talking has not prevented the hate-India propaganda in Pakistan. Talking has given Indians the false impression that Pakistan is a normal country where the Pakistan government, (like the Indian government) does not actively preach hatred and fear of the other country. Not talking will also not stop any of this - but it will at least indicate to Indian people with a degree of honesty that there are concerns about the way hatred is preached in Pakistan by official agencies in a way that India does not do. The government of India should be honest in its portrayal of Pakistan in front of Indians who elect them The government of India is essentially lying to the Indian people and pretending that Pakistan is normal country and that we stand to gain by keeping on talking.

Many Indians have family links and relatives on both sides apart from religious pilgrimages and consular relations are essential

Allowing visits of Pakistanis into India may not be totally preventable. But the pretence of normal relations allows a flood Pakistanis coming for reasons like shopping, marriages and sport of whom many disappear. Unless India can keep a firm tag on Pakistanis visiting India it is better for India to take a cue from what the rest of the world is doing and restrict the entry of Pakistanis to a bare minimum. We do not need Pakistanis in India

Both countries stand to gain by improving trade relations

Indeed. But it takes two hands to clap. Pakistani security agencies and jihadi groups as well as protected Paki businessmen do not want free trade. When one nation does not want that free trade why pretend that this is a reason for maintaining relations. It is a lie to put up such a pretence - and yet another instance where mindless bureaucrats are deluding themselves with the same old excuses.

You cannot cut off all links - that will allow others to step in to our detriment

This excuse needs to be shown up for the nonsense that it represents. India has tried desperately to keep ties going but that has not prevented entities like the US and China from arming them and funding them and encouraging anti-India activities, neither has it prevented Islamic ummah nations from taking Pakistan's side again and again. Why are we pretending that links with Pakistan will somehow prevent others from stepping in. It is Pakistan's hostility that is leveraged by others, not the lack of links

Our people are culturally so similar; we share a heritage of common music and arts and Bollywood is very popular in Pakistan

This is a strange excuse. It has nothing to do with diplomacy or pragmatism but it is just a way of saying that I will accept the fact that a man is a rapist and a murderer because he is my brother. Such emotions should have no role in international relations

Our relations with Pakistan allow Pakistan to sponsor terrorism while they pretend that all is well. All is not well and we need to be honest. By "we" I mean the Indian government. Indian governments, advised by Indian babus are either ignorant of Pakistan or simply lying

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2015 07:45

sukhish wrote:bottom line is GOI is in no position to control these kind of acts, as they do not want to take panga with GOP. they all give statements and thats it.

The GoI is either ignorant about Pakistan, or more likely hiding essential information about Pakistan from the Indian public because of the anger that would generate in India and the fact that they would be forced to take action.

I admit that all the information about Pakistan that the Indian public needs is openly available, but the government actively pretends that it does not matter. For example the Indian government (UPA and NDA) have pretended that active indoctrination of hatred in Pakistan does not exist. It is not mentioned in government statements; no protests are made; it is not mentioned in parliament. They are either lying or in denial. Probably a bit of both.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 02 Aug 2015 08:43

shiv wrote: It is not mentioned in government statements; no protests are made; it is not mentioned in parliament. They are either lying or in denial. Probably a bit of both.

From what I understand, Indian Foreign policy is controlled by the bureaucracy rather than the politicians, and the bureaucracy seems to have an active interest in playing down the existential threat posed by Pakistan, and pretending that there are active power centers that matter in Pakistan that are aligned with India's interests, when that is clearly not the case. A look at the time line of the likes of Nirupama Menon Rao indicates either the MEA crowd is actively lying to the Indian public or is smoking some pretty potent drugs provided to them by their friends in Pakistan.

The Indian bureaucracy whines about India being equated with Pakistan, and yet their own actions reveal an intention to pretend that Pakistan is almost just like India...so really, they should not be complaining about equal-equal in the first place. They continue to pretend that there are power centers in Pakistan that are "reasonable" enough to do business with India, when it is pretty clear to anyone who is watching that such is not the case. This Modi regime is no better than the ManMohan Regime when it comes to pakistan, which can only mean that the babucracy is in charge of India's pakistan policy. So the question is why do they want to pretend Pakistan is in better shape as a coherent state than it actually is.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2015 09:00

Tuvaluan wrote:
shiv wrote: It is not mentioned in government statements; no protests are made; it is not mentioned in parliament. They are either lying or in denial. Probably a bit of both.
From what I understand, Indian Foreign policy is controlled by the bureaucracy rather than the politicians, and the bureaucracy seems to have an active interest in playing down the existential threat posed by Pakistan, and pretending that there are active power centers that matter in Pakistan that are aligned with India's interests, when that is clearly not the case. A look at the time line of the likes of Nirupama Menon Rao indicates either the MEA crowd is actively lying to the Indian public or is smoking some pretty potent drugs provided to them by their friends in Pakistan.

The Indian bureaucracy whines about India being equated with Pakistan, and yet their own actions reveal an intention to pretend that Pakistan is almost just like India...so really, they should not be complaining about equal-equal in the first place. They continue to pretend that there are power centers in Pakistan that are "reasonable" enough to do business with India, when it is pretty clear to anyone who is watching that such is not the case. This Modi regime is no better than the ManMohan Regime when it comes to pakistan, which can only mean that the babucracy is in charge of India's pakistan policy. So the question is why do they want to pretend Pakistan is in better shape as a coherent state than it actually is.

Interesting point.

I wonder if the bureaucracy actually lie to the government because they would be actively under threat while posted in Pakistan f they told the truth. By lying they are treated OK and possibly have access to Pakistani hospitality even while watched by the ISI.

Indian diplomats have been threatened and mistreated in Pakistan regularly - but those stories are hardly told and the facts of Pakistan are hidden. I would have imagined that the bureaucracy can do themselves and the nation a favour by telling the truth and downgrading relations.

if we on BRF had not collectively accessed thousands of artciles and books about Pakistan, we too would have been living in cloud cuckoo land about Shitistan. Looks like there is an active bureacratic/governmental lobby to whitewash the true attitudes of Pakistanis towards Indians and Hindus.

Christine Fair figured out so much in a few years. And not just Fair - I can list a whole lot of sources on which my own ebook was based. Indian diplomats in Pakistan who have collectively spent a hundred times more years in Pakistan than Fair have either been deliberately lying or intimidated into telling lies.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 02 Aug 2015 09:33

Actually, its pretty simple:
- Either Bhaarath learns to live with state of Pakistan.
- Or Bhaarath finishes off state of Pakistan.
This is the first choice that everyone must make. There is no ultra-chanakyan third way.

Lets also see what are the options Pakistan faces:
1) friendship with Bhaarath : If Pakistan tries to become friends of Bhaarath, then sooner than later there will be demands to undo partition and simply merge into Bhaarath. Why even be separate when you want to be buddies? If you can be buddies, then you can live in the same house. Why have two different houses?
2) enmity with Bhaarath: If Pakistan makes war against Bhaarath. It gets defeated and most probably that will be cue for other provinces to seceded. Already secession happened once. Another secession will mean the end of Pakistan completely.

Given these two options, Pakistan is caught between devil and deep blue sea. Either way the state of Pakistan cannot survive. So, what are they trying? They try to keep a delicate balance with friendship and enmity. Too much enmity and leads to war, and they lose. Too much friendship and they will be assimilated. It seems that the leaders of Pakistan fear Bhaarath assimilation more than Bhaarath's aggression. So, they like to err on the enmity side rather than on friendship side.

About indoctrination in Pakistan to hate Hindhus and Bhaarath:
It proves just 2 things:
- the main enemy of Bhaarath and Hindhus in this whole episode is the state of Pakistan.
- people of Pakistan are amenable to propaganda. Pakistan state can mold it because it is in power. If a friendly state comes to power, the same people can be made to love Hindhus and Bhaarath using similar tools.

The point is why does the state of Pakistan see the need to indoctrinate its citizens against Bhaarath and Hindhus?
It is because they are afraid that Bhaarath will sooner than later assimilate Pakistan due to cultural and historical ties. This proves that Pakistan is more afraid of Bhaarath's ability to assimilate Pakistan than Bhaarath's ability to annihilate Pakistan. If people of Pakistan naturally hate Bhaarath and Hindhus, then the state of Pakistan would see no reason to invest in such propaganda. So, if the state of Pakistan has to artificially pump in the hate indoctrination, it shows their fear that Bhaarath will assimilate them.

This also explains why Bhaarath allows cultural ties and other citizen to citizen ties. The idea is simple: Pakistan is afraid of Bhaarath's assimilation. So, Bhaarath allows cultural and other contacts so that assimilation can happen. Bhaarath being the bigger country, it can easily assimilate a much smaller country like Pakistan if the cultural or economic ties are strengthened. This simple point is known to both sides.

But, the crucial point here is that the state of Pakistan will not allow this assimilation to go on uninterrupted. The state of Pakistan cannot afford too much friendship or enmity with Bhaarath. So, they try to keep it simmering on low intensity enmity. Thats their survival plan.

Since, Pakistan seems to have decided that Bhaarath's enmity is safer than Bhaarath's friendship, they will pursue enmity. Their only offensive plan against Bhaarath is terrorism. And they will continue with this option because it is their only option. They try to calibrate this terrorism to a degree which they feel is enough to simmer but not boil over into a full-scale war.

So, for Bhaarath, learning to live with the state of Pakistan means learning to live with low-intensity proxy-war. The other option is that the state of Pakistan will have to be removed and dismembered into smaller friendly units. If Bhaarath wants to finish off state of Pakistan, then it can't be done just using covert means. Covert means can weaken Pak. But, the knockout punch will have to come in overt manner.
So, in essence, Bhaarath has two options:
- learn to live with proxy-war sponsored by Pakistani state.
- go all out and finish the state of Pakistan and dismember it into smaller friendly units.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 02 Aug 2015 09:49

Given these two options, Pakistan is caught between devil and deep blue sea. Either way the state of Pakistan cannot survive. So, what are they trying?

Time to pay attention to rule no. 1: don't assume that your enemy thinks like you do and is motivated by the same set of things as you are, or that his definition of 'reasonable' matches yours. Don't disagree with the bit about ensuring the break up of pakistan though.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 02 Aug 2015 10:01

hummana hummana

Wouldn't be surprised if Harpal Bector wrote this:

1) Indians have never seen a conflict on the scale of WWI or WWII *on their own soil*. Indians for all the roadside deaths and rioting they see everyday - have never faced a situation where entire cities are ground to dust by artillery shells and aerial bombing and tens of thousands of people die in seconds. There is no mental model in the population for that.If they were forced to confront Indian society will fall apart in much the same way Japanese(German) society fell apart after the USAAF city bombings of Tokyo(Dresden).

2) Indians in the freedom struggle era saw famine. They knew what happens to a society when food and water become unavailable. Modern Indians have no concept of those things. Like the young populations of post-industrial Europe, many Indians crave for things that will only result in unbearable pain and suffering.

3) The Indian economy as it currently is barely enough to provide basic human needs for its citizens. It has been a huge struggle to get things this far. Expensive things like WWII level conflicts would turn the economic clock back decades at the very least.

This knowledge forces a certain conservative framework into bureaucratic thinking. And the core principles of bureaucratic thinking in India (in and out of uniform) become the following

1) When you have information kill people, otherwise kill time.
2) Do as much as you can without actually getting off your chair.
3) Don't get obsessed with death - everyone dies - don't get into the habit of killing.
4) Whatever you do - don't do anything that leads to the loss of your own privileges.
5) Turn unscheduled risks into schedule-able risks.
6) Politicians and political fashions are like the weather - they come and go. Without you they can't do anything

Note the elitism implied by the text that pretends the Indian officialdom is taking care of Indians much like a mother takes care of a naked 2 year-old rolling in the dirt. "politicians come and go"...but the bureaucracy stays to take care, obviously.

Note the emphasis on not doing much at all if possible, and definitely not viewing existential threats as such, even if they are in front of you with their zippers down....but then I am sure Indian bureaucracy is all awesomely smart and would never lie to the Indian public to protect their own tribal interests....right?

Of course, the Germans and Japanese grew stronger after their trials and tribulations, when forced to deal with violence and death at large scales, and the Indian bureaucracy sticks around to ensure that Indians do not have to deal with such things,because that is how awesome they are...warms the cockles of your heart, don't it? Wonder what the gaandmasters of suhrawardy have to say about the selfless and wonderful Indian bureaucracy.

One thing I know for certain -- the bureaucracy has its claws into english papers like the Indian Express and NDTV.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 02 Aug 2015 10:41

shiv,

Like all trade unions, the IFS fraternity is also power center based and there are many pacos to be fed. Why assume that the MEA officers sent there actually are listened to (recall khan head honcho in bangladesh in 71). It might well be the political kaala-pani or vanvaas. From what I have seen of the functioning in lands beyond, the FS really carries little weight compared to AS in internal functioning.

Having said that there is a uniform tendency to ignore, sugar coat, understate, and not upset carts filled with apples, oranges, tangerines, water melons, bananas, all fruit you know, in addition to the onions going across the border.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Aug 2015 10:49

So have the Punjab Police identified where and with whom the terrorists spent after crossing over from TSP?

munna · Post by **munna** » 02 Aug 2015 11:06

ramana wrote:So have the Punjab Police identified where and with whom the terrorists spent after crossing over from TSP?

Something of Interest

Satellite phone intercept sends Army to look for terror moles

An intercepted overseas call from a banned satellite phone service provider to a recipient located near Jalandhar has prompted a security hunt for the unauthorised use of such an instrument.

The "suddenness" of the attack and the call interception has led to suspicion that these could be an attempt to revive Pakistan's "K2" (Kashmir and Khalistan) agenda. The army and Punjab Police have gone on a high alert and launched a joint operation in Punjab to thwart any possible "after shocks" of the Gurdaspur attack. Sources said the call was intercepted three days ago by an Army signals unit and the information was passed to the state police and intelligence agencies. Several agencies monitor wireless signals, including satellite and cellular calls, but it's the local police that has to verify the location and user of such calls.

Although I consider dossiergiri as crap but still for the evidence seekers, kudos to Punjab PCMS Doctors who conducted autopsy.

‘Made in Pak’ tag found on terrorist’s glove

The panel of doctors from Gurdaspur civil hospital, which carried out the autopsy of the three Pakistani terrorists, stated in their report about “external appearance” that a “Made in Pakistan” label was found intact in the glove that one terrorist was wearing

Grandmaster of Suhrawardy street, my foot

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2015 11:44

Let me approach the issue in the way my mind wants me to approach it:

Proposition: Pakistanis in general have been indoctrinated to hate India and see India as an enemy and as a threat. Pakistani books and media support this idea.

Is this proposition wrong?

As far as my information goes, from a series of articles, books and PEW polls the proposition is true. But if it is true why is it not widely reported in the Indian media and why is there no Indian government publication or public statement indicating that this is the case.

Does the Indian government want to hide the fact that hatred of India is encouraged in Pakistan
or
Is the Indian unaware that hatred of India and Hindus is encouraged in Pakistan
or
Does the government of India feel that the active encouraging of hatred of Indians in Pakistan is not significant or important or that it is an utter lie. But if the GoI is right here it makes a whole lot of articles and books and opinion polls by neutral people and by Pakistanis lies. Those entities have no reason to lie.

Mind you this is not just Khangress but BJP as well. Why would the GoI want to lie to Indians?

One possible reason is: Adverse public reaction: After all Indira Gandhi lied about the fact that 70% or more of the people being massacred in Bangladesh were Hindus and that 90% of the refugees were Hindu. She wanted to avoid riots. (source of my info: "The Blood Telegram" by Gary Bass)

If the Government of India hides facts about Pakistan from the Indian public because it is afraid of an adverse reaction from the Indian public, it means that the government deliberately lies and misleads the public. If this was somehow helping to solve the Pakistan problem perhaps these lies would be justified. But these lies only hide real issues from people and from the less informed arms of government. This I believe is an injustice being done to the nation.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Aug 2015 11:47

Tuvuluan, Nothing to be surprised about. That is his writing. But he isnt a bureaucrat so doubtful what he says is correct.

Basic truth is this.

India has been ruled for 60 odd years by the progeny of a man who thought the Mughals were noble (and they were the successors) and also cultivated Indian muslims as a votebank and regarded the majority Hindus as malleable and riven by caste and dislike of each other. With that thinking the Pakistanis become yet another extended "votebank" who can be managed, assuaged since the fact they kill the occasional Indian doesn't affect the Mughal satraps.
The bureaucrats are grade A chamchas who are handpicked by this clan, given acess to a lot of power and pelft and bicker over spoils. The really big chamchas become Governors, ambassadors, head of public sector units etc, committee heads with lal battis, free perks galore. Similarly, the left is coopted. All cooperate to ensure the clan remains in power. Social engineering of decades convinces the average "Well read" Indian this is the way things should be.

And which is why TSP remains an issue. BTW many in the BJP also come from the above environs. They too are clueless.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Aug 2015 11:50

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Images/po ... idence.jpg

So as i had surmised, NATO gear used by terrorists.

So much for deniability, this that.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 02 Aug 2015 12:06

Tuvaluan wrote:
1) Indians have never seen a conflict on the scale of WWI or WWII *on their own soil*. Indians for all the roadside deaths and rioting they see everyday - have never faced a situation where entire cities are ground to dust by artillery shells and aerial bombing and tens of thousands of people die in seconds. There is no mental model in the population for that.If they were forced to confront Indian society will fall apart in much the same way Japanese(German) society fell apart after the USAAF city bombings of Tokyo(Dresden).

2) Indians in the freedom struggle era saw famine. They knew what happens to a society when food and water become unavailable. Modern Indians have no concept of those things. Like the young populations of post-industrial Europe, many Indians crave for things that will only result in unbearable pain and suffering.

3) The Indian economy as it currently is barely enough to provide basic human needs for its citizens. It has been a huge struggle to get things this far. Expensive things like WWII level conflicts would turn the economic clock back decades at the very least.

Childishly argued piece by Harpal Bector / Maverick...in line with general low IQ and standards of leftists in India.

One-line summary of his argument is the following: 'Human cost, impact on Indian access to resources and economic cost of any hard response by India against Pakistan is unsustainably high". No supporting details are offered, as expected.

Any logical examination of his argument would need to proceed down the following paths, if he or his ilk feel upto raising their game to higher standards:

1. What is the likely human cost to India under various scenarios and options of hard response against Pakistan? Which ones would be considered as unsustainable by Indian public opinion and why?

2. What is the likely hit on Indian access to various supplies and resources and what countermeasures can GOI put in place? Why is this unsustainable?

3. What is the likely quantified impact on Indian economic growth? Why is this impact determined to be unsustainable?

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 02 Aug 2015 12:10

Karan M wrote: And which is why TSP remains an issue. BTW many in the BJP also come from the above environs. They too are clueless.

No doubt, Karan. No doubt.

Isolation, like Jupiter and Mars
Staring faces, set in celluloid
Welcome to the late show, starring Null and Void

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 02 Aug 2015 13:18

These night vision devices are the ones supplied by the United States of America to their Munna The Islamic Republic of Pakistan's Army and without any accountability. The Untied States is Arming and abetting terrorism in India through Pakistan. The evidence of U.S Night vision device with terrorists are a clear proof of that.

Link

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Aug 2015 13:24

Tuvaluan wrote:
Karan M wrote: And which is why TSP remains an issue. BTW many in the BJP also come from the above environs. They too are clueless.
No doubt, Karan. No doubt.

Isolation, like Jupiter and Mars
Staring faces, set in celluloid
Welcome to the late show, starring Null and Void

Which is why (IMO) the RSS influence w/BJP is a positive and required step. And which is why the leftists/INC pasand types wail about the same. They could coopt some sections of the BJP/RW they feel, but for the historically and culturally aware folks in the RSS who nip such efforts in the bud and are too disciplined to be coopted by the power, perks, pelft Lutyens Delhi holds out for seduction.

PS: This is what Maverick really fears:

That being said if the Modivadis interfere with the manner in which option viability is determined inside the bureaucracy they will be setting themselves up for an even bigger failure in the near future.

You see, he (and his fellow, anti meanie Hindutva INC travellers) are comforting themselves with the thought that Modi can't (shouldn't) do much and the bureaucracy (N-IG clan supporters) will scupper such efforts. This is why he was on this forum, to make sure the demand for a strong response was downplayed and the discussion ended up in FUD about capturing some terrorist, AD this, tweetiya that.

A strong jhapad on the TSP guys face would do multiple things:

1. Prove that Modi can make the bureaucrats and what not dance to his tune
2. Give an alternative to the do nothing, talk peace, so what my a$$ is safe line of INC thought peddled by the likes of Maverick
3. Ensure things remain the same, on a low boil, so that INC/Left can come back to power & aforesaid folks can go back to sneering at them crude uncivilized Hindutva types while they put up pictures identifying themselves as being some Mughaliya emperor and what not. They simply don't get (a cultural disconnect entirely at work) how stupid this is and how it makes even the most centrist of folks reconsider the depths to which the left leaning folks have fallen, akin to a glorification of Aurangzeb and how great he was.

There is fundamentally a cultural issue here. The "oh-so-civilized" folks who are willing to overlook everything from LeT's religious indoctrination to the local issues in India where the likes of Indian Mujahideen are flourishing and have been so for long, thanks to the toxic votebank politics followed, but yet aforesaid folks are ever ready to act as gatekeepers of Indian civilization and culture - which has a huge Hindu imprint and one they don't really identify with and regard as primitive, but yet see fit to insist it should follow their diktats while acting as its interpretators for the west. Modern day Mughaliya behavior.

Unfortunately, Modi & co overcame 1000x worse to get where they are today, and with his team, there is a good chance TSP will face a reckoning in multiple ways & Modi & co will know how to project it well too as and when it happens. In short, the prognosis for the INC/JLN self proclaimed leaders of the country etc is not too good over the long term. The MSM and the intellectuals are their last gasp but for how long.

Unfortunately, the likes of Maverick are out in the cold. They have identified themselves so strongly with a corrupt, elitist, despotic regime and all that it meant including nincompoop chamcha bureaucrats who crawled when they were asked to bend, they can't even see or realize the Indian people chose different & expect different from the new rulers who are expected to deliver on economic growth, national security and also be cognizant of local civilizational heritage.

This (mis)unfortunately for the INC/Left is not the Mughal glorification that the Diggys and Mavs so profoundly believe in as a sign of "inclusiveness". Most Indians think of them as rapacious bigots & just because the MSM/INC structure tried to stifle any mention of it, does not mean the belief disappeared. People still know the truth & the repeated harping on how TSP is "just like us" and the glorification of do nothing, while Indians died in droves at the hands of the TSP types, became too obnoxious for even a notoriously apathetic public to bear.

As long as the "adarsh liberals" keep supporting the yakub memons or downplaying their toxic local support base and play a narrative that every excess of the mujahideen etc are whitewashed - the RW will only become stronger. And given India's historical issues, its need for a strong national security focus, plus its need for a strong economy, thats a good thing.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 02 Aug 2015 13:32

Karan M wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/Images/po ... idence.jpg

So as i had surmised, NATO gear used by terrorists.
So much for deniability, this that.

Perhaps the four rathers have given the leash too much slack. Or perhaps election year and all, no new arms transfers are due. The NVD though, what brand were the JeePeeEss. I yam curious.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Aug 2015 13:56

Shreeman wrote:
Karan M wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/Images/po ... idence.jpg

So as i had surmised, NATO gear used by terrorists.
So much for deniability, this that.
Perhaps the four rathers have given the leash too much slack. Or perhaps election year and all, no new arms transfers are due. The NVD though, what brand were the JeePeeEss. I yam curious.

Are sir, the slack has been there for decades. Sections in India know about it too. Rest have been too blind and lazy since its easier to beg the mai-baap to intercede when your own structure is set up to pander to interests from abroad and support toxicity within. In which other country would a convicted terrorists death bring out huge crowds in support, with the MSM egging them on? And the state watches impotently lest any words on the issue be regarded as "commoonal".
Reason I state this is my second theory was also proven correct, that these Gurdaspur attackers had local help.

Its not rocket science to surmise both the above and it merely testifies to what we have long known on this forum but the powers that be, have always tried to cover up such stuff. The foreign hand stuff is easy to put out (the local one is usually covered).

In the name of the foreign hand, our prior dispensations would do some waah-waah, or get some brownie points - see our UPA bigwigs telling Khan that hey, we'll do a dog and pony show about Headley, don't mind onlee, but its not that we're serious.

Or a so called intel czar telling a furrin ambassador that he was firmly against Cold Start, and of course, the lack of support for IA weaponization was just a coincidence.

We talk of omnipotent local guys doing great stuff. Yes many are busting their butts keeping us safe. There are those who are are well.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 894009.cms

With this level of local coordination and expertise in years past under the great UPA, the fore-fathers etc are baad ki baat.

Now with a new Govt in town, at least all that sh!te is being cleared up, which is why if not today, then a few years from now the system will be in place to do what's necessary.

The main focus for the BJP & any sane thinking Indian - should be to keep them in power so this stuff is implemented & progressed. Otherwise its back to the good old days of Sharm e Shaikh while Indians get killed in droves and a 26/11 takes days to resolve while Nero picks his nose and thinks on how to pin the blame on NSG or some other bakra.

In this one attack here is what I saw different.

NSA on the spot ensuring full coordination between NSG, IA and Punjab Police plus Intel providers (IB/RAW/State police)
Proper decision making from PP (with constant monitoring by NSA)
Ops complete with minimal PR for LeT (as versus 26/11 - massive propaganda value)

Not so positive- many things by seat of pants
-Train bombs (alert IR guy detected it which means IR has good guys, policies but we need to do more)
- Passengers on bus avoid attack due to driver (again, drivers initiative, another guy could have stopped)
- Terrorists got into our "hinterland" - a safe zone conceptually where public is almost completely unaware of such stuff. We were lucky that Punjab/ Gurdaspur are more aware and have faced such situations before. But what if the ISI decided to invest more resources in these guys, burn a few local assets for the PR value, had them switch clothes, and get them much deeper into India, to another Tier 2 city with a less aware public, police force?

This was clearly an intel issue and shows we are yet to get proper Humint.

On a deeper level, we will never get proper Humint (it is always much easier for LeT/ISI to segregate units and keep them compartmentalized) and fighting such a war on our territory with our hands tied is going to end with initiative always on the other side.

As long as the "other side" thinks it can execute such attacks without payback (disproportionate), we will continue to have them, unless the whole of India becomes a security state and even then, the attacks will keep coming & causing disruption.
Anyways, operationally NSA/BJP GOI did a good job. But more is required on the institutional and strategy side of things.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 02 Aug 2015 15:27

Karan,

In the old dispensation east of the division there were many foreign imported levers, physical and mental. In the new one, you would think there might be fewer. Visa denial, need for kejriwal, and all. Perhaps that assumption too needs a rethink.

Neuj went uncovered in the usual prominent suspects among media. Their silence on many matters Indian is also a bit puzzling. Given that less than a year (more or less, second half next year is useless, will only contain presidential pardons and such)remains in the world order administration before elections, the state department chosen ones are probably busy doing "the needful" and preparing their "befitting replies" for life after the election. Even without, the black man is probably not controlling the mountainous baki friendly camel from massachussetts. So there is that in the tea leaves.

Internally, the administration hasnt done what is neccessary (institutional response capability without political dances) so far. The honeymoon might be over, and it would only be increasingly harder to accomplish anything going forward. The NSA/BJP have ought to no role in minor incidents such as these. Other than a report to be read with tea after closure of the file. An analogy would be the song and dance west of the line with every ding dong firing. Or the wagah gate closure ceremony. Only handicaps the function, and adds nothing to ceremony. Delegate this nonsense to hands on people.

Realistically, the response has to be against a. opiates, b. commerce, c. forged currency. These three can change the landscape. Will there be such a response? For example, acting in Afg, crop dusters and all, to stop opiates at source. Or converting all >100 transactions to electronic ones, demolishing the paper. Feed afghanistan for free two years (they buy wheat anyway) and keep their fields barren with industrial scale dusting. Do the whole world a huge favor.

edit -- Or take out appropriate "suparis" with the russian government. Their people need work.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 02 Aug 2015 15:53

Shreeman wrote: Realistically, the response has to be against a. opiates, b. commerce, c. forged currency. These three can change the landscape.

+1

Multatuli · Post by **Multatuli** » 02 Aug 2015 18:50

KLNMurthy wrote (page 17):

Mods excuse the gustaak, but Harpal Bector's posts actually have valuable information.

If his posts here are typical of Indian bureaucratic thought processes as he was suggesting, it gives us some clues as to the character and

intellectual propensities that have been driving India's Pakistan policy into a ditch all this while.

Here is what I am seeing:

* excess cleverness: senseless bandying about of fundas like "escalation thattee" or something.

* love of complication and nuance for its own sake: Dinanagar is a test, Dinanagar is a ladder, it is a laddoo, a whole speculative sh1tload of

unknowables of questionable value; anything but "Dinanagar is enemy action which is just like zillions of previous actions by the same enemy."

* weird and pointless interest in being an advocate for Pakistan : "But the yindoos have not given any broof! Just trying to defame bakistan onlee!"

Why not leave the lies and whines to the bakis?

Pertinent points. There is a class of people in India, in the media, 'social activists' with NGO's (funded from outside India) and within the bureaucracy who are extremely clever in juggling with words. There usually isn't any logic (nyaay) or substance to what they say but they will overwhelm others (those who are less fluent in the English language, like I am for example) with their verbosity, their pseudo cleverness. These people are mostly pseudo liberal, pseudo leftist, pseudo intellectuals (think Mani Shankar Ayer). There is so much fake going on in India, and one of the most important reasons the fakes are not called out is because of their mastery of the English language, the 'discourse' (if you can call it that) is in English, a language many Indians are not comfortable with, they think in an Indian language and that is the language they are most articulate in. The fakes (pseudo liberal, pseudo leftist, pseudo intellectuals) however can easily browbeat patriotic Indians with their better command of the English language. (This is one more negative of having English as the lingua franca in India, it's a completely abnormal situation, it is also very off topic.)

Shreeman wrote:

Realistically, the response has to be against a. opiates, b. commerce, c. forged currency. These three can change the landscape.

Thinking like this can get you killed in India (seriously), even the police has to be careful. The above crimes have full support of many influential 'secular' (that is communal) politicians in India.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Aug 2015 19:30

eklavya wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: Just blowing up a few Pakistani officers, jihadis or assets doesn't accomplish much.
That is not correct. The people who sanctioned this need to be paid back in kind.

+1. Ekalavya.

Our secular presstitutes are saying exactly same thing as A_Gupta peddles on the forum every day.

"Just hanging Kasab, Afjal, Memon doesn't accomplish much in defeating terrorism".

Only difference is that we call those presstitutes as scum.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 02 Aug 2015 19:31

^^^(where quoted) If necessary I will do the needful and give a befitting reply, and then decamp.

Multatuli -- We think bakistan related oddities are novelties like dasheri mangos, unique. Take a look at the hispanic immigration problem and associated crimes -- drugs, money, slavery. The lot. It will take some serious sacrifice on someones part to disturb the steady downhill status quo, but the exploitation is neither new nor novel.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Aug 2015 19:38

vayu tuvan wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:A superpower couldn't defeat Vietnam or bully Cuba into submission.
neither could another superpower the afghans. reason is obvious - they were not as brutal as was necessary. Moreover they were the kauravas (i.e. adharmics side). India is a much more humane country with humane people. If India goes to war with pakistan with the objective of breaking it up, India would be on the side dharma. We will witness a 1971 redux. Nobody will give a damn to pakistani troubles and losing sindh and baluchistan at that time. their sins are slowly approaching the threshold just like 1971. or so I hope.

Disagree from multiple dimensions/perspectives.

Afghans were the worst country to be called land of heroes. They were often ruled by Hindus & Persians in history. Then even "peaceful" Buddhism conquered them and converted all of them into Buddhists. We all know how they are converted into Islam after that and are yet to get free (after 1400yrs) from Islam. They were defeated nation for at least 2000yrs. Even Pakistan keeps them divided, poor & inhumane. They are not heroes by any stretch of imagination.

India was never a humane society to adharmics or even rebels. Everytime an Asura raised his/her head, the whole race is put to near-extinction barring those dharmic Asuras. Even rebel kingdoms like Kalingas were massacred as early as 200BC. Let's now forget how our own Mughal-Rajput army and British Indian Army facilitated colonization of our own people with brutal force.

Current apathy of Indian state is not due to ahimsa or humanity. Look how Punjab police crushed Khalistan militancy and how IA crushed NE & Kashmir insurgencies. The current apathy of Indian state is due to the clouding of national intellect by Secularism. It doesn't know what its interests are or can't decide if someone is its enemy or not. As and when Indian state gets clarity of thought, it can be more brutal than all world powers combined.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Aug 2015 19:45

A_Gupta wrote:
Shreeman wrote: Realistically, the response has to be against a. opiates, b. commerce, c. forged currency. These three can change the landscape.
+1

Very interesting erudition...

We MUSTN'T respond to terror attacks by killing few Pakis (terrorists, generals, and people) because it wouldn't solve the terrorism problem.

We MUSTN'T ban & ridicule the religion/ideology that forces Pakistanis hate every Indian (Hindus for being kafirs, Christians for being fallen bookies, Muslims for being Indians).

BUT, a response against a. opiates, b.commerce and c.forged currency helps solve the problem of terrorism.