Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

[Singha]

I think the typhoon is a better dogfighter than the rafale...it has a larger wing, more powerful engine, bigger canards, better t:w ratio ...

[brar_w]

I think the typhoon is a better dogfighter than the rafale...it has a larger wing, more powerful engine, bigger canards, better t:w ratio ...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=1883011#p1883011

[ldev]

While there is this online dogfight going on about the dogfight, we missed some important breakthroughs being made in the region by the SU30s on their way back from the UK. They landed at King Fahd airbase in Taif near Jeddah in Saudi Arabia and were there from Aug 1 to Aug 4.

Saudi-Indian defense ties soar

Wing Commander S. Joardar, who also addressed the press conference in Jeddah, said: “In our view, this is called the staging visit. We could have chosen to do this in any country in the region but we chose Saudi Arabia. That indicates the significance we attach to the country.”
The contingent was led by Group Capt. A. Srivastava. “We had a wonderful time in Saudi Arabia and we were made to feel at home,” he said.
Group Capt. J. Banerjee said landing and midair refueling over the mountains of Taif were challenging.
“When a runway is 5,000 feet above sea level, as was the case in Taif, that is always a challenge. We have to factor in many things, but we loved the topography,” he said. “Also, landing at a Saudi Air Base was quite an experience in itself.”
According to him, the Saudis got a good look at India’s state-of-the-art and modest (most??) modern fighter jets. “They got a good idea about our capabilities and we got a good idea about their immense professionalism,” he said.
To a question if there were any possibilities of a joint Saudi-Indian exercise, Wing Commander Joardar said: “This depends on an invitation from the host country. We see no reason why that cannot be done if there is an invitation.”

[shiv]

I think the typhoon is a better dogfighter than the rafale...it has a larger wing, more powerful engine, bigger canards, better t:w ratio ...

The "better dogfighter" business goes only so far because every plane has its strengths and weaknesses. The idea of training is to make sure that one plays to one's strengths. Reading the history of air combat in India - of which there is a lot of material available one finds that Hunter pilots realized that they could turn better (or maybe climb better, I can't recall) than Sabres so they worked to convert fights into one's that involved the advantage they had.

Similarly here is a little titbit about the HF 24 in a dogfight. No one wil ever tell you that the HF is a better "dogfighter" than the MiG 21 but..

[Rakesh]

Let me be frank here.
Im tired of Indians being told how to behave, how to follow Dharma, how to be courteous, how to be gracious people.
None of such can be expected by Indians from other peoples. ( Remember, the its the other peoples who have a history of lies, deceit, brutal colonization & mass slaughter. And YES that is relevant here just as previous crimes of a person plays a role )
If its fair for someone from the British side to comment on the exercises last time around, it is fair for Indians to comment on it this time now. How,what, when is irrelavant. We need not stick to a template set by others on how to express ourselves. We are differnt people. If you dont like that , go kill yourself.
The bizarre thing is "Dharma" is brought into this. Reallly? Dharma? If war itself is seen as Dharmic in the Indian POV , "war-exercises" are the nearest thing to it.

I am amazed how you can bring colonization and mass slaughter into this. This is an air exercise between two countries, not a dick measuring contest. I could care less if the IAF lost every engagement up there. The real loss is repeating the same mistake again. The IAF conducted itself with grace and I am sure the RAF did the same. But if beating your former colonization master in an air exercise gives you satisfaction, then so be it. It is the media that hypes up these exercises, not the IAF. The more you sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war.

[SaiK]

bullseye rak bhai! exercises are done for constructive corrections of SOPS and OPS.

[Shreeman]

Rakesh,

Fan boys have every right to be measuring both flaccid and otherwise. They exist for that very purpose.

The statements by other airforces, leaked videos et al were psuedo official at least, if not official. There is nothing wrong with a 56 inch chest when data has been respectfully provided, and is favorable. Not sure why the sulking and crying over past lost egg-sir-sizes was any different or more acceptable. They lost.

Teeeheeehee. Better luck next time, old chap, to them. From me, a fan boy. Of the Amrikahan forces that routinely wipe their behinds with the royal poodlistan forces. And the froggies. And of IAF as they do the same. Hopefully even better the next time. No one whines re. khan superiority, and hopefully with a routine the IAF too. No one pitied anyone in 2009. They too were learning eggs-per-inches.

Let the fanboys have their fun.

[SaiK]

see them in max res.. was this posted here?

[Neela]

>The IAF conducted itself with grace and I am sure the RAF did the same.
Yes yes. I am sure the IAF will be proud of the "most well behaved contingent" silver it brought back.

>This is an air exercise between two countries, not a dick measuring contest.
Please stop. And read the way participants/commentators respond after the exercises. Help yourself here. Red Flag 2008 is a consequence of 2004 exercises. And capabilities/features etc of these planes when seen in such exercises contribute to purchase decisions. You do not get any other opportunities anywhere. Lets also not forget that the EF team decided that Britain should lead the campaign on the fighter's behalf in mMRCA contest because it was understood that Britain knew her former colony well. David Cameron patronizingly even urged India to "reconsider" its Rafale decision after the announcement.
And travelling 10K km with fighters, refuelers, AWACS etc to participate in exercises, pit your strategy , asking about the experience of pilots, whether they are best from TACDE, keeping eqpmnt in training mode / not showing full _capabilities_ - is probably not a "dick measuring contest" for you. These uncivilized lumpens eh?

[Cain Marko]

I think the typhoon is a better dogfighter than the rafale...it has a larger wing, more powerful engine, bigger canards, better t:w ratio ...

Isnt the rafale supposed to be better at slower speeds and high aoa in terms of maneuverability

[member_20067]

Was checking the recoveries of the SU 30 MKIs.. Do the pilots keep the front gear up a little longer for the photographers?

[Viv S]

Lets also not forget that the EF team decided that Britain should lead the campaign on the fighter's behalf in mMRCA contest because it was understood that Britain knew her former colony well. David Cameron patronizingly even urged India to "reconsider" its Rafale decision after the announcement.

Eurofighter's campaign in India was led by Germany not the UK. To be specific EADS Cassidian (now Airbus Defence & Space).

[SaiK]

now airbus ds group.. had the mmrca gone to ef2k, the frenchies would have still enjoyed their 46% share in the company

[TSJones]

Rakesh,

Fan boys have every right to be measuring both flaccid and otherwise. They exist for that very purpose.

The statements by other airforces, leaked videos et al were psuedo official at least, if not official. There is nothing wrong with a 56 inch chest when data has been respectfully provided, and is favorable. Not sure why the sulking and crying over past lost egg-sir-sizes was any different or more acceptable. They lost.

Teeeheeehee. Better luck next time, old chap, to them. From me, a fan boy. Of the Amrikahan forces that routinely wipe their behinds with the royal poodlistan forces. And the froggies. And of IAF as they do the same. Hopefully even better the next time. No one whines re. khan superiority, and hopefully with a routine the IAF too. No one pitied anyone in 2009. They too were learning eggs-per-inches.

Let the fanboys have their fun.

I would point out that the US rarely wins these international tests/shootouts.

We cry and sob..........and go running to congress for mo' money.

remember, there is always another plane in the works.

[GeorgeWelch]

David Cameron patronizingly even urged India to "reconsider" its Rafale decision after the announcement.

You're confusing 'being patronizing' with 'good economic sense'.

The Russians, the Swedes and the Americans all did the same thing.

No one gives up hope until the contract is official, because as recent events have demonstrated, anything can happen.

[GeorgeWelch]

1. V Som
In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights

When you can fire behind yourself, the entire concept of 'in your sights' is meaningless.

edit: to clarify, I'm not saying the Typhoons have that capability now, just talking about the direction air combat is headed, and soon

[SaiK]

^on the same lines, when you can fire beyond visual (why rear?) where does your question heads to?

[Rakesh]

Yes yes. I am sure the IAF will be proud of the "most well behaved contingent" silver it brought back.

So now there were medals handed out as well Perhaps next time, you can host a Miss Universe contest and provide a trophy model to the pilot who scores gold. I am sure that will be fabulous!

Please stop. And read the way participants/commentators respond after the exercises. Help yourself here. Red Flag 2008 is a consequence of 2004 exercises.

So just because your anti-colonial frame of mind believes that Red Flag 2008 is a consequence of Cope India 2004 exercises, does not make it true. And before you quote that USAF Colonel, he does not represent the USAF. Secondly, in a real air conflict...the US will gain air dominance over Indian air space. Losses will be there, but the USAF will prevail. The Khan network is that powerful.

And capabilities/features etc of these planes when seen in such exercises contribute to purchase decisions.

Perhaps you suffered a bout of amnesia on 31 January 2012, when the Rafale was declared as L1 and the Typhoon as L2. No negotiation is going on between the Govts of India and EU nations that operate the Typhoon. Thus your statement above is facetious at best.

You do not get any other opportunities anywhere.

Yes you do actually. The IAF has learned the capabilities of the F-16 Block 52/52+ that the PAF has, during exercises against the Singapore Air Force at SINDEX. An exercise that has far greater utility value than Red Flag or Indradhanush. That does not take away any significance however, that the former two have provided to the IAF. All exercises ultimately serve an educational purpose, that is why they are referred to as "exercises". This is where if you make a mistake, you live. The lesson is to ensure that you do not repeat that same mistake in actual air combat.

Lets also not forget that the EF team decided that Britain should lead the campaign on the fighter's behalf in MMRCA contest because it was understood that Britain knew her former colony well. David Cameron patronizingly even urged India to "reconsider" its Rafale decision after the announcement.

Former colony? I guess it is true what they say - education only takes one so far, but pinch a raw nerve and then a person's true nature comes out. Does Britain's colonization of India affect you that bad? I think you have failed to realize that now it is the other way. We have colonized them "in" Britain. Google "Southall". Regardless, Germany lead the Typhoon campaign, not Britain. Prime Minister David Cameron is doing what any other Prime Minister in his place would have done. He is there to ensure Britain's interests are looked after. And our govt is there to ensure India's interests are protected. He asked us to reconsider the decision, but yet we continue to negotiate only with France. Unless you have evidence that proves otherwise.

And travelling 10K km with fighters, refuelers, AWACS etc to participate in exercises, pit your strategy, asking about the experience of pilots, whether they are best from TACDE, keeping eqpmnt in training mode / not showing full _capabilities_ - is probably not a "dick measuring contest" for you. These uncivilized lumpens eh?

If not for anything else, it consistently proves the IAF's capability of force projection and the value the IAF places upon training. Secondly, no AWACS went on this training exercise. Thirdly, the IAF and the RAF both went into this to learn from each other. If you want to remain immortal, teach. If the IAF won 12-0, kudos to them. If the IAF lost 0-12, still kudos to them. Because the real win or loss, lies in the lesson. Refer to the end of the Line of Duty episode of the Su-30MKI video. What the IAF instructor says in the debriefing room is what these exercises are all about.

When 12 F-Solahs are burning in the deserts of Rajasthan, then I will be chest thumping. That is winning.

[Rakesh]

The statements by other airforces, leaked videos et al were psuedo official at least, if not official. There is nothing wrong with a 56 inch chest when data has been respectfully provided, and is favorable. Not sure why the sulking and crying over past lost egg-sir-sizes was any different or more acceptable. They lost.

Show me the data from this latest exercise. Do you have any, besides articles from our media? I would love to see concrete data - not vague statements - from a reliable source before we puff up our chests to 56 inches. The very fact that you are stating the RAF lost, clearly proves that you have no idea about what these exercises are about in the first place. It is amateurish to gloat over something that you cannot even reliably back up. In that respect, you are no different than the USAF Colonel who behaved the same when our boys went for Red Flag 2008. As I said before, both did their job well and did what they were supposed to - fly, fight, learn and LIVE.

[sanjaykumar]

The very fact that you are stating the RAF lost, clearly proves that you have no idea about what these exercises are about in the first place.


Indeed these exercises have nothing to do with war fighting which has nothing to do with winning or losing. It's an excuse for a taxpayer funded junket.

[Shreeman]

The statements by other airforces, leaked videos et al were psuedo official at least, if not official. There is nothing wrong with a 56 inch chest when data has been respectfully provided, and is favorable. Not sure why the sulking and crying over past lost egg-sir-sizes was any different or more acceptable. They lost.

Show me the data from this latest exercise. Do you have any, besides articles from our media? I would love to see concrete data - not vague statements - from a reliable source before we puff up our chests to 56 inches. The very fact that you are stating the RAF lost, clearly proves that you have no idea about what these exercises are about in the first place. It is amateurish to gloat over something that you cannot even reliably back up. In that respect, you are no different than the USAF Colonel who behaved the same when our boys went for Red Flag 2008. As I said before, both did their job well and did what they were supposed to - fly, fight, learn and LIVE.

Rakesh,

They kept a score. Why? Is the score something that the proponents of IAF here invent? No. The methodology? No. The counting? No. Anything that can be changed to favor the RAF? No. Are you suggesting the RAF somehow didnt comprehend the concept of a loss in an practice engagement. Unlike previous times. Like playing in the qualifiers before the main event? You only send your B team to the qualifiers, and also second hand equipment, just in case someone gets hurt or something gets broken. No?

Neither side denies it. We didnt invent the 12-0. In what way is 12-0 vague? Nor the overwhelming advantage overall. Just what is this data you demand? A journalist has official repeatedly said he stands behind his story and the numbers. Numbers are like, data. Not like charts and graphs data. But guess what charts and graphs are made of?

Then the "excercises" excuse. If you lost a three-day match before the world cup where you did not play each other, does it change the fact that you lost? Or does it become not cricket because its not the world cup? Where was this data when air chiefs were gloating about "of course, they lost."?

Why not show me the "data" otherwise when a bout score is provided. The ball is in your court. Not ours. You want to say the poodlistan air force in its great tradition of whipping the natives proved more than equal to the task of teachng the natives a thing or two despite their newfangled communist toyj. You are asking for dental x-rays of the loser after the boxing match is ended with a knock out. Just why are you inventing these eggs-cue-jes?

We as fanboys ARE no different that the good Colonel except the good colonel wears a uniform and should behave better. Absoluely the same. Just that as arm chair sepoy and jamaadar of the chemical cleaning platoon we arent beholden to the stiff upper lips requirement. They *are*. And they will gloat at the first available chance. So will we.

In fact, thats the whole idea. They dont forget to rub it in when they "win" the practice matches. And neither do we. Half the fun for spectators is to tease the spectators of the other side. Otherwise, going to the match is for nothing more than paan-staining the stadium. The team captain shakes hands with the opposing captain after a match. No one asks the spectators to hug and makeup. Or console the losers.

Not being the official spokesperson or having patches on the shirt has its advantages. One of them is "naaanaaanaanaaah naanaah, you lost!" and wave the flag vigorously. Except if it has diagonal stripes. Then you just adjust your monocle and say "good show! what?? Quite." and move on to the next cucumber sandwich. Right?

And it is right to do so if the game is not fixed, especially after an away match. To pout or pretend otherwise is to suggest the games were rigged. Thats evidence you provide, not we.

[SaiK]

he he he.. no air-forces in the world would give you out numbers.

[Rakesh]

Thanks SaiK. As usual, complete hogwash from you Shreeman. And, I am still waiting for your "detailed" reply in the Rafale thread.

They kept a score. Why? Is the score something that the proponents of IAF here invent? No. The methodology? No. The counting? No. Anything that can be changed to favor the RAF? No. Are you suggesting the RAF somehow didnt comprehend the concept of a loss in an practice engagement. Unlike previous times. Like playing in the qualifiers before the main event? You only send your B team to the qualifiers, and also second hand equipment, just in case someone gets hurt or something gets broken. No?

One simple question. You said they kept a score. Where is this score? Please show it to me.

Neither side denies it. We didnt invent the 12-0. In what way is 12-0 vague? Nor the overwhelming advantage overall. Just what is this data you demand? A journalist has official repeatedly said he stands behind his story and the numbers. Numbers are like, data. Not like charts and graphs data. But guess what charts and graphs are made of?

Our media invented the score of the 12-0, not the RAF or the IAF. I am asking you for official data. Do you have any source? You are jumping on some bullsh!t claim of 12-0 that came up in our media reports and then claiming it to be truth. If media reports are true, the leader of the IAF's contingent has gone on record stating that the results of the exercise are not quantifiable. What nonsense are you saying?

Why not show me the "data" otherwise when a bout score is provided. The ball is in your court. Not ours. You want to say the poodlistan air force in its great tradition of whipping the natives proved more than equal to the task of teaching the natives a thing or two despite their newfangled communist toys. You are asking for dental x-rays of the loser after the boxing match is ended with a knock out. Just why are you inventing these eggs-cue-jes?

You have not provided any score. You are claiming something out of thin air, with no verifiable evidence. This is what PAF fanboys did prior to the 65 and 71 war, which many still do. In both, the IAF held their own and in the latter achieved total air dominance in the eastern theater. The danger of chest thumping in the absence of any substantive evidence leads to unpleasant outcomes.

We as fanboys ARE no different that the good Colonel except the good colonel wears a uniform and should behave better. Absolutely the same. Just that as arm chair sepoy and jamaadar of the chemical cleaning platoon we arent beholden to the stiff upper lips requirement. They *are*. And they will gloat at the first available chance. So will we. In fact, that's the whole idea. They dont forget to rub it in when they "win" the practice matches. And neither do we. Half the fun for spectators is to tease the spectators of the other side. Otherwise, going to the match is for nothing more than paan-staining the stadium. The team captain shakes hands with the opposing captain after a match. No one asks the spectators to hug and makeup. Or console the losers. Not being the official spokesperson or having patches on the shirt has its advantages. One of them is "naaanaaanaanaaah naanaah, you lost!" and wave the flag vigorously. Except if it has diagonal stripes. Then you just adjust your monocle and say "good show! what?? Quite." and move on to the next cucumber sandwich. Right? And it is right to do so if the game is not fixed, especially after an away match. To pout or pretend otherwise is to suggest the games were rigged. That's evidence you provide, not we.

You seriously need to get over your insecurities of trying to beat the white man because of what he did to India ~ 70 years and prior. The world has moved on. Get over it. People who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.

[Avarachan]

If there is one side that comes off poorly, it's clearly the Indian.

Either they dramatically exaggerated the situation, which is of course poor, or they did indeed whip the British, in which case they broke courtesy by discussing results. Typically 'what happens at exercises stays at exercises'. That's why normally for such exercises all the comments are very generic and try to praise their opponent.

To say 'Naw, they sucked lol' is frankly rude to someone who was kind enough to host you and in general makes people less willing to exercise with you in the future.

George, relations between states is conducted primarily on the basis of reciprocity. In 2011, the RAF Chief, Stephen Dalton, spoke crudely regarding the results of the exercise. (His words were, "Well, they lost.") Is anyone naive enough to think that the IAF wouldn't remember that and respond?

Under normal circumstances, it is inappropriate to discuss the results of the exercise. It wasn't the IAF that broke protocol first. However, after protocol was broken, the IAF--using a respected Indian journalist as a proxy--responded when an opportunity arose. I see nothing wrong with this. Soldiers are not expected to act as monks, some of whom practice radical forgiveness for spiritual reasons. Warriors fulfill their duty (dharma) in the messy world of state-ordered violence. A code of conduct matters. Accordingly, in general, there needs to be a consequence when that code is violated. In a cheeky way, the IAF is telling the RAF that if it doesn't want to be trash-talked, it shouldn't trash-talk others.

Given the context, I think most militaries in the world would have responded as the IAF did.

[shiv]

Vishnu Som makes a report and stands by it. A few people laugh and cheer and some people do not want them to cheer. This sounds so much like my grandmother who used to warn us when we were kids if she found us laughing by telling us that excessive laughter inevitably leads to tears in due course. How weird is that.

I think Vishnu Som's report is something to cheer and gloat about precisely because it causes discomfort and distress to others. That simply adds to the fun. Lectures and moralizing ain't gonna stop the gloating. It may stop if we have our asses kicked - but why not wait till that happens? After all at least a few people other than my grandmother have predicted that? Why poop on the party?

[Rakesh]

Avarachan: Air Chief Marshal Dalton did say that and it speaks very poorly of his professionalism. However never get into a mud fight with a pig, you will be just as dirty and the pig will actually enjoy it. SaiK put it best, "Exercises are done for constructive corrections of SOPS and OPS." If we achieved a score of 12-0, then obviously our SOPs are a cut above the RAF. That is a huge accomplishment and is where we really need to feel proud and even thump our chests. True mastery lies in being superior to one's previous self. It also means our training is top notch. If the reverse is true or somewhere in the middle, we need to hone our skills so we can make corrective corrections of our SOPs. Everything else is like a fart in the wind. It will smell, it will stink...but it will dissipate without any long term ill effects. You know what the Israeli Air Force tells it pilots when they train them? When you encounter an enemy fighter, always remember that he is the best pilot you have ever encountered. That forces you to be even better, otherwise you will not come home. In humility, lies true strength.

[Rakesh]

Vishnu Som makes a report and stands by it.

I read the report by Vishnu and it is a good one.

This sounds so much like my grandmother who used to warn us when we were kids if she found us laughing by telling us that excessive laughter inevitably leads to tears in due course.

You know, your grandmother may be right.
http://www.prevention.com/health/health ... ody-quirks

Why poop on the party?

I apologise for pooping

[Neela]

Lets also not forget that the EF team decided that Britain should lead the campaign on the fighter's behalf in mMRCA contest because it was understood that Britain knew her former colony well. David Cameron patronizingly even urged India to "reconsider" its Rafale decision after the announcement.

Eurofighter's campaign in India was led by Germany not the UK. To be specific EADS Cassidian (now Airbus Defence & Space).

Stand corrected. Yes, it was led by Germany's Cassidian. It was _after_ the Rafale decision that news reports came suggesting Britain should have led the campaign. MMRCA decision came soon after Japan also rejected the Typhoon.

[tushar_m]

Flanker fury: How the Sukhois blanked the Typhoons 12-0 in British skies

The Sukhoi Flanker has yet again emerged as the unchallenged wolf of the skies. During the 10-day Indradhanush exercise held in July in Lincolnshire, UK, Indian Air Force pilots flying the Su-30MKI humiliated the top aces of the RAF, blanking their latest Eurofighter Typhoon jets 12-0.

The IAF Sukhois were reportedly able to defeat the Typhoons not only in one-on-one combat, but also in situations where one IAF pilot was pitted against two Typhoons. Besides clobbering the RAF during within visual range (WVR) dogfights, the Sukhois also held an edge over the British jets in beyond visual range (BVR) combat though not in as dominating a manner.

Aviation International News learns from informed sources with knowledge of the exercise that “in close combat, the thrust vector control on the heavier Flankers more than compensated for the greater thrust-to-weight ratio of the Typhoon”.

Typhoon hit by Sukhoi storm

Experienced air combat analyst Vishnu Som explains: “The first week of the exercises pitted the Su-30 in a series of aerial dogfight scenarios. First, there were 1 v 1 encounters, where a single jet of each type engaged each other in WVR combat, firing simulated missiles to a range of two miles. The exercises progressed to 2 v 2 engagements with two Eurofighters taking on two Su-30s and 2 v 1 exercises where two Sukhois took on a single Typhoon and vice versa. Notably, in the exercise where a lone Su-30 was engaged by two Typhoons, the IAF jet emerged the victor ‘shooting’ down both ‘enemy’ jets.”

The Flanker’s legendary super-maneuverability is a key reason why it emerged out of the knife fight unscathed. “In all dog fighting exercises, IAF Sukhois were able to turn sharply into the extremely agile Typhoons using their thrust-vectored engines to keep the RAF jets locked in their sights,” Som writes.

Also, the Su-30’s advanced Infrared Search and Track System (IRST), a passive sensor, which cannot be tracked, proved to be a distinct advantage for the IAF’s pilots in close-combat maneuvering. “Both the IAF and RAF used the full capabilities of their onboard radars, albeit in training mode, which meant actual radar frequencies used in combat conditions were never exposed for confidentiality reasons. However, the detection ranges of the radars of both aircraft were not curtailed per se. This was air combat as close to the real thing as possible.”

Interestingly, while the UK’s Independent says the British deployed the “cream of the RAF”, Som says “the IAF did not deploy any senior pilots serving with its elite Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE)”.

British: Still colonial?

Dismissing the Indian claims as “comical”, an RAF source told the Independent that they were clearly designed for the “domestic audience”. The source added: “There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form.”

The 12-0 score must have stung real bad considering the British are yet to jettison their colonial attitudes towards former subjects, who are now wealthier and stronger, possessing a much larger military.

Now compare the RAF’s childish reaction to the USAF’s more balanced approach in the aftermath of their humiliation by the IAF in the Cope India air combat exercises held in 2004 and 2005.

Cope India 04 made headlines worldwide when Indian pilots flying upgraded – but 30 year old – MiG-21s and the comparatively less advanced Su-30MKs defeated the USAF’s F-15 Eagles 9-1. Here’s what USAF Colonel Greg Newbech said after the exercise: “What we’ve seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home.”

The following year, at Cope India 2005, the USAF deployed several F-16s. The results of the drills were much similar to those of the previous year, with Indian pilots able to win most of the engagements in their latest Su-30MKIs.

Again, in 2008 at Exercise Red Flag held at Mountain Home AFB, known for its complex and realistic war gaming, not a single Su-30MKI fighter was ‘shot down’ in close air combat missions. In 10-odd one-on-one engagements against USAF jets such as the F-15 and F-16, none of the Sukhois were even close to being shot down.

You get the picture. The IAF Sukhois have consistently beaten western aircraft in a range of environments – Gwalior, California and now Britain.

Self-imposed handicaps

IAF Sukhois usually engage in simulated combat – particularly with western air forces – with their NIIP Bars radar in training mode. In this mode the radar operates with reduced performance and features. Russian and Indian officials have legitimate concerns about revealing too many details of this sophisticated sensor. At Red Flag 2008 a British spy plane had attempted to snoop on the Sukhoi’s radar but it had to return empty handed.

It is because of such spying – as well as to protect their data and tactics from air forces that it could one day possibly fly offensive missions against – that the IAF doesn’t permit its pilots to use the full spectrum of the Su-30’s capabilities.

The IAF also avoids BVR simulations for the same reason. It doesn’t allow the capabilities of its Russian made R-77 and R-73 air-to-air missiles to be simulated in exercises.

Lessons from Indradhanush 2007

Indradhanush 2007, held at Waddington, UK, featured a similar combat scenario, with IAF Flankers versus the RAF Typhoon, with a support cast of Tornados and the Harriers. Here’s what India’s Ministry of Defence had to say about the outcome:

“The operational part of Exercise Indradhanush-2007 began with a series of 1 vs 1 air combat sorties… The RAF pilots were candid in their admission of the Su-30 MKI’s observed superior maneuvering in the air, just as they had studied, prepared and anticipated. The IAF pilots on their part were also visibly impressed by the Typhoon’s agility in the air.

“While it does not imply to say that the 1 vs 1 air combat sorties were meant for backslapping each other, it may be understood that in today’s aerial combat scenarios of BVR capabilities of air platforms, it is highly unlikely that any of the modern-day fighters will ever get into a situation that warrants extreme close air combat, as in the situation simulated in the 1 vs 1 sorties. With a ‘kill’ criterion of front-gun ranges being mostly under 1000 meters and a visual tracking envelope behind the target for only up to a 60-degree cone mostly for most fighter aircraft of the world, the unlikely scenario gets more exemplified.

“But the irony also lies in the fact that while there is a number of counter and counter-counter measures to make the modern missiles with claims of inescapable parameters redundant by using ‘chaff’ and other active/passive measures, a ‘gun kill’ is invariably a most certain kill. The pilots invariably begin honing their tracking and combat skills under such close combat situations.”

The MoD’s purely technical – and unbiased – report blows away the British claim that they fought with one hand tied behind their back, that is, the Typhoons were not allowed to use their BVR capabilities. For, the Sukhois – which have vastly superior BVR missiles – also flew under severe and similar handicaps.

Defense Industry Daily (DID) agrees: “Even in the modern missile age, most air-to-air kills have remained within visual range.”

Bigger picture

According to DID, “Amidst the excitement of the aerial battles, the successful deployment of India’s aircraft using IAF aerial refuelling and logistics personnel might go unnoticed. From India’s point of view, however, these developments may be even more important than the results of the fighter match-ups in the air.”

The four Sukhoi air dominance fighters accompanied by an Ilyushin IL-78 aerial refueller, C-17 transporter and C-130 special operations aircraft flew from India to Saudi Arabia on to Athens before landing in Britain. The hopscotch itinerary – of nearly 10,000 km – served to show off India’s strategic reach capability, especially to the Saudis, who are now cooperating with India in combating Islamic terror, which is the Kingdom’s second largest export item after oil.

Bottom line

Indradhanush 2015 offered RAF pilots a rare chance to go up against some of the latest Russian-designed fighter jets. The British should count their blessings that the Indians allowed them joyrides in their Sukhois.

The takeaway for the British is that their newest jet fighter – which was built to take on the Flankers – is simply no match for the Russian jet. In fact, with the induction of the more advanced Su-35 Super Flanker in the Russian Air Force – and soon the Chinese air force – the Typhoon’s window of vulnerability will only widen.

As for the IAF, it should make sure all ‘kills’ by its pilots are verified and placed in the correct context. Indian pilots are historically not known to make tall claims. In the aftermath of previous wars, the Indian defence establishment has meticulously pieced together vast quantities of data from all sides in order to verify or debunk kills. If the claims are found to be inflated then the public needs to know too.

For, there’s no surer way to lose the next war than to live in delusion about your own strength.

Source RUSSIA & INDIA REPORT

[Shreeman]

Avarachan: Air Chief Marshal Dalton did say that and it speaks very poorly of his professionalism. However never get into a mud fight with a pig, you will be just as dirty and the pig will actually enjoy it. SaiK put it best, "Exercises are done for constructive corrections of SOPS and OPS." If we achieved a score of 12-0, then obviously our SOPs are a cut above the RAF. That is a huge accomplishment and is where we really need to feel proud and even thump our chests. True mastery lies in being superior to one's previous self. It also means our training is top notch. If the reverse is true or somewhere in the middle, we need to hone our skills so we can make corrective corrections of our SOPs. Everything else is like a fart in the wind. It will smell, it will stink...but it will dissipate without any long term ill effects. You know what the Israeli Air Force tells it pilots when they train them? When you encounter an enemy fighter, always remember that he is the best pilot you have ever encountered. That forces you to be even better, otherwise you will not come home. In humility, lies true strength.

Rakesh,

I suppose the criticism of 12-0 joy is ressrved just for me then. Well, teeeheehee. Hawhaw, they lost!
I will stand by my "teeeheee, they lost! Tough luck, laddie." gloating, flag waving, face making, and jumping up and down until these multiple articles re. 12-0 and better are not retracted. You want to see "rebellion against the white masters" in it. Feel free. Doesnt reduce my "teeheeehee"ness one bit. I dont have that insecurity. You anal-isis is just as bad as the real isis.

Now, as I noted previously my electrons are the 2G/Edge barely better than GPRS variety for a little bit. When it doesnt rain. Thats squarely on Indian shoulders. It is hardly a possibility for me read even the BR databases or SIPRI for that matter. This shall pass and it should be trivial to contradict the fallacy that "in the interim, because existing stocks are teeny tiny, we ought to keep importing A2A projectiles". That is where we left it, didnt we? Surely, thats easier than delivery tons of, you know what, to each and every willing recepient, self included. Now where do we place that order? Hehe.

[Neela]

Yes you do actually. The IAF has learned the capabilities of the F-16 Block 52/52+ that the PAF has, during exercises against the Singapore Air Force at SINDEX. An exercise that has far greater utility value than Red Flag or Indradhanush. That does not take away any significance however, that the former two have provided to the IAF. All exercises ultimately serve an educational purpose, that is why they are referred to as "exercises". This is where if you make a mistake, you live. The lesson is to ensure that you do not repeat that same mistake in actual air combat

So you say exercises aren't a dick measuring contest. yOu also say media hypes up these exercises & you focus more on how each contingent behaved in ID15. But then you come up with saying the above which runs contrary to the general gist of your earliers post. Are you in fact saying that keeping score is garbage & assessing capabilities is more important? Is that your message in posts? But even here, how does one assess capabilities without giving scenarios in WVR zones? The numbers represent how each team fared in those scenarios. WHat is wrong with that? and why is that trivial? Isnt that a way of quantifying performance?

The larger point I want to make is this - there is always someone who comes and tells em brownies how to behave. You did just that. And please dont pretend to represent the IAF. Simple.

[deejay]

Avarachan: Air Chief Marshal Dalton did say that and it speaks very poorly of his professionalism. However never get into a mud fight with a pig, you will be just as dirty and the pig will actually enjoy it. SaiK put it best, "Exercises are done for constructive corrections of SOPS and OPS." If we achieved a score of 12-0, then obviously our SOPs are a cut above the RAF. That is a huge accomplishment and is where we really need to feel proud and even thump our chests. True mastery lies in being superior to one's previous self. It also means our training is top notch. If the reverse is true or somewhere in the middle, we need to hone our skills so we can make corrective corrections of our SOPs. Everything else is like a fart in the wind. It will smell, it will stink...but it will dissipate without any long term ill effects. You know what the Israeli Air Force tells it pilots when they train them? When you encounter an enemy fighter, always remember that he is the best pilot you have ever encountered. That forces you to be even better, otherwise you will not come home. In humility, lies true strength.

What does the IAF tell its pilots as vs. what the Isreali Air Force tell its pilots?

On this forum in recent discussions posters have advocated IAF assets being handed over IN and IA. They have confused their views of a 'procurement' mis mash with that of 'capabilities'. This score line is a reflection of 'capabilities'. Vishnu Som put the score line out there, the RAF does not like it but will not talk of the scoreline as per them. A Hat Tip to Vishnu for laying it out.

And why should we not gloat about our successes-

>In humility, lies true strength - Or underplaying ones capability (reflected very well through results like these) and not acknowledging our strengths makes us stronger? I think a neighbour on our west needs to be specifically told what are our strengths and how capable we are. IAF has been criticised for '65 war (refer Ajay Shukla article from last year on the IAF '65 war commemoration) in public domain rather incorrectly, so why should a good counter when available not be announced and pasted on the faces of those who would not let any opportunity go by to dismiss, downplay or criticise the IAF?

If the jingoes here were to stop the gloating would the IAF pilots also stop their gloating? No. Nor would they become complacent. Actually, the reverse will happen. The next lot who will go will be aware what their predecessors achieved and will have to work very hard to emulate. The help in their hard work will be the lessons from this exercise.

> The Typhoon was a competitor in the MMRCA and when I saw the StratPost MMRCA videos, I realised that the MMRCA was limited to 30 tons because they specifically wanted to keep the Su 30 out of the competition. This logic fails yet another test.

At costs per plane the Typhoon is more expensive than Su 30 or at least in the same range. In capability it has some strong points but the Su 30 is more than a match (12-0 kind of match in favour of Su 30 MKI). Why is it that such expensive and not so great aircraft should be inducted be it Rafale or Typhoon when an equally or more capable, equally or less costly Su 30 is available and MKIzed. We have an eco system to produce the aircraft and we can ourselves work to improve them.

This, IMHO, is another reason why we should gloat about our MKI's and make it clear that 'new imports' are not needed.

> IAF training: Again, very recently, some one claimed IAF goes crashing aircraft. No, the IAF goes practicing and challenging limits. Yes, it has severe penalties like loss of dear and good folks plus an expensive, hard to come by machine is also lost. But, on the other side is a very capable Air Force that we have. Sqn training in IAF is not a function of exercises and their results. There is a syllabus and currency requirements. Newer pilots will replace the existing. It is a long process till one becomes a line pilot or a WSO in the Su 30 MKI including the much debated 03 stage initial training. It has its advantages and this result is an indicator.

It is surprising that when IAF's crashes are implied as unprofessional, the 'humility' is unable to stand to such accusations but when the IAF does achieve 12-0 the urge to be subtle and graceful is advocated.

Just my two cents worth of ranting in what has become a very strange discussion on not even being sure of celebrating the 'good' results.

edited for spelling

[shiv]

It is surprising that when IAF's crashes are implied as unprofessional, the 'humility' is unable to stand to such accusations but when the IAF does achieve 12-0 the urge to be subtle and graceful is advocated.

Just my two cents worth of ranting in what has become a very strange discussion on not even being sure of celebrating the 'good' results.

Good one

This thread has become a great place for analyzing Indian psyche

• We are unprofessional - we have the highest crash rate in the world
  Our products are useless
  Celebrations means we are sitting on our haunches and not learning anything
  What? Did you say happy news? Shut your pie hole. Nothing to gloat about

Guess what - these are the exact types of statements you would get from a people whose self esteem has been battered down to the lowest possible level. What is truly amazing is that Indians, like Jekyll and Hyde play both roles -i.e batterers of Indian self esteem standing shoulder to shoulder with the usual culprits who always do that, and the battered, who are asked to apologize and repent for being happy

It stands out because the Pakis and Chinese are the exact opposite.

No more. But the contrast between boasting about nothing (eg JF-17, Suparco etc) and getting rapped on the knuckles for cheering happy news could not be more stark.

The good news has been trampled on by so many that this thread has been kicked out of gear. For what? Because people were happy. How ridiculous can things get? But I will say again

[shiv]

Mummy suckling her babes after they whupped ass

[shiv]

[Shreeman]

shiv,

in my humble view, the admiral trolls us quite successfully in hope of finding a weakness to use later on. A sort of passive sonar dangled on a mile long wire. No longer traced back to him when all is said and done. No matter, we are quite happy to play along.

12-0.

[shiv]

Here - watch some 12-0 flying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q35d2jtPP6Q

[arthuro]

Being neither indian or british, I understand that the sukhoi has better slow speed maneuvrability than the typhoon which is a clear asset in a dogfight. Slow speed maneuvring is a known weakness for the typhoon and is being adressed with upgraded aerodynamics (lerx). It is an upgrade option for typhoon operators.

For the record, the typhoon already known such important defeat against the rafale in dogfights during an exercise in corsica in 2009. The high alpha vs high rate debate was the same at that time.

However during the large force engagement in BVR, the RAF claims the typhoon was superior which is the most important point IMO.

In a real war situation dogfight will be a russian rullet due to all aspect HOBS missile + HMS.

[Singha]

here is the article refering to lerx. seems they could improve its subsonic turn rate by 15%....which presently is lagging the non-delta wings...

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ht-400762/

[Shreeman]

Being neither indian or british, I understand that the sukhoi has better slow speed maneuvrability than the typhoon which is a clear asset in a dogfight. Slow speed maneuvring is a known weakness for the typhoon and is being adressed with upgraded aerodynamics (lerx). It is an upgrade option for typhoon operators.

For the record, the typhoon already known such important defeat against the rafale in dogfights during an exercise in corsica in 2009. The high alpha vs high rate debate was the same at that time.

However during the large force engagement in BVR, the RAF claims the typhoon was superior which is the most important point IMO.

In a real war situation dogfight will be a russian rullet due to all aspect HOBS missile + HMS.

Nopey dopey. see here:

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian-a ... eststories

NEW DELHI: In some of the most intense international air combat exercises ever featuring the Indian Air Force, IAF pilots flying Sukhoi 30 MKI fighters had a resounding 12-0 scoreline in their favour against Royal Air Force Typhoon jets in Within Visual Range (WVR) dogfighting operations.

In subsequent Large Force Exercises (LFE) which featured combined Typhoon and Su-30 formations, the IAF jets were somewhat less successful but consistently held an edge over the Typhoon.
.

Give the pilots their due. May be the RAFs yorkshire puddings werent upto the task this time. The RAF lost a home match. Bow and move on. No amount of spinning changes the fact that in nothing, zilch, nada did the typhoon do better than the communist sdre metal.

The more you try to eggs-plain away the failings, the more we go heeehaaw -- 12-0.