IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Aug 2015 11:51

Yes but IAF seems insistent on some aircraft or the other. Its gone beyond rationality.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Aug 2015 11:58

This is a massive boondoggle; goi could still turn this around and buy something more appropriate - a few scorpenes, mistrals and possibly even fremms instead of the rafales would a graceful and face saving exit for all concerned.

IAF need can be met via numerous other options....even if Russian solutions are strictly avoided. used mirages, more tejas, german eurofighters and in a worst case scenario, gripens, even jsf.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Aug 2015 13:21

IAF should just be given 10 aircraft of each MMRCA type over a 10 year period. Would match their existing logistics to a T. Also help them from having to (shudder!!) order the dastardly Mk1 LCA in any more numbers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Aug 2015 15:36

Karan , IAF is just asking for MMRCA , if the GOI feels the winning bid is expensive then it can go for 2nd one or just cancel the deal .

But I think looking at the squadron strength status GOI decided to go for outright purchase of 36 and what ever is the trade off involved as this is not now a MMRCA deal but a subset of it

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 27 Aug 2015 16:24

Another possibility often downplayed:

The IAF wants the rafale because it has already tested it extensively during trial evaluations and confronted it during exrecices (Garuda). Based on the knowledge of the aircraft and its actual capabilties, IAF thinks it is a "very good to have" in its inventory (or that type of capability). Maybe they simply like the aircraft after all anf they have access to information not disclosed to public forums. As simple as that.

That would be a more rational reason than trying to find weird scenarios like being "unprofessional", "unable to negotiate" or Dassault being the reincarnation of evil, being beyhond rationality etc...A bit of common sense and cool head hepls.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Aug 2015 16:59

Does anyone actually know what is being paid for by each air force that buys the Rafale?

Let me state my view. I am guessing that with each aircraft comes a "standard" set of spares and a standard set of jigs, tools, manuals, boxes, testing hardware and software, spare expendables like little covers, rings, clips etc. For air forces that are going t have the Rafale at just one main base - that base will require special infrastructure for the Rafale - perhaps something that exceeds the cost and scope of the special Mirage 2000 set up India built in Gwalior.

Next come the issue of how much flying is going to be done. The more the flying the greater the need to have more spares and a more comprehensive testing and maintenance set up. The amount of flying IAF does will put IAFs needs in this regard among the top 3-4 Air Forces of the world - and setting up for that is going to be more expensive than what Egypt or any of those Rafale inducting Air Forces will use. That apart the environment in which flting is to occur may call for certain mods and checks before and after flight and India has more environments than all the other 2-bit air forces buying the Rafale. Finally the IAF may want duplication of some facilities in more than one base for wartime or for action in the east, and the IAF will likely insist on a complete pilot and technical staff training set up in India. Those other air forces probably don't even have the capability of setting up some such thing so the cost they pay will be much less as their people will simply get sent to France when needed.

The same issues will hold true regarding weapons and avionics fits and the IAF will surely want existing legacy and soon to be acquired Indian items to be fitted. Compatibility for all this, deletion of some standard items, inclusion of special stuff from other (say Israeli) vendors etc are going to result in a price figure different from what other air forces get so when I see people saying XYZ AF gets it for 130 mil but we are stupidly paying 160 mil etc sound like Sharma's wife telling her husband that the Singhs latest 60 inch Sony flatscreen TV cost less than what the Sharmas paid and has more features so her stupid husband Sharma has got hoodwinked as usual because he should have gone along with Singh to buy it as she had demanded.

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Aug 2015 17:30

^^^

Everyone is paying more than $200 million/Rafale. If India wants offset, ToT and other customizations it will surpass $300/Ralafe.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Aug 2015 17:33

srai wrote:^^^

Everyone is paying more than $200 million/Rafale. If India wants offset, ToT and other customizations it will surpass $300/Ralafe.

Whatever - but comparing the publicly revealed price given to one air force with that of the other sounds like a naive exercise to me. That it is expensive is a given. Too many people with econ background talking defence strategy.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 27 Aug 2015 18:44

From $10 billion for 126 to $20 billion for 126 Deep ToT to now Euro 8 billion for 36 flyaway jets out of one base.
Crazy math this.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Aug 2015 19:09

srai wrote:^^^

Everyone is paying more than $200 million/Rafale. If India wants offset, ToT and other customizations it will surpass $300/Ralafe.

They perhaps have no options like India has or have a ton of funds, etc. So, I do not see that as an argument.

My feel is that India is stuck with France. As in cannot get out.

The IAF is a diff story IMHO. I just hope they do not ask for more and embrace local products.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Aug 2015 19:14

Rafale deal: French Defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian to visit Delhi next week

kit · Post by **kit** » 27 Aug 2015 19:26

The future has arrived ..how long will the Rafale be relevant ?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ow-382100/

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 27 Aug 2015 21:21

kit wrote:The future has arrived ..how long will the Rafale be relevant ?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ow-382100/

The French air force deems the most efficient combination is UCAV like the Neuron with unbeatable stealth compared to manned fighters (even FR35 etc...) with rafales. In French AF new doctrine, UCAV and rafales will work together, the former could be controlled by the rafale.

-One one hand you get the best possible stealth to survive in a heavily defended environment.
-One the other hand you get flexibility, fire power, uncompromised performance and maneuvrability. To replicate this type of qualities in a stealth airframe is quite hard: it would be too big and costly.

So it is expected to see the rafale evolves for many years (F4 and MLU upgrade already in the pipe for 2025 - 2030).

Rafales alongsides with rafale are the future of French air Force.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Aug 2015 22:12

arthuro wrote:The French air force deems the most efficient combination is UCAV like the Neuron with unbeatable stealth compared to manned fighters (even FR35 etc...) with rafales. In French AF new doctrine, UCAV and rafales will work together, the former could be controlled by the rafale.

Err.. no the French Air Force has no option but to rely on the Neuron because its the only major air force (along with the Luftwaffe) that isn't inducting stealth fighters. And that problem for Dassault is compounded by the fact that the new-kid-on-the-block i.e the F-35 is cheaper than the Rafale, and can also be used in conjunction with a UCAV.

Of course, VLO UCAVs are at least a decade away from service. But the funny thing is - if they weren't, your argument could actually be used to support the purchase of a new batch of Su-30MKIs, to be complemented with a UCAV. The advantages would be obvious -

-One one hand we would get the best possible stealth to survive in a heavily defended environment.
-One the other hand we would get flexibility, fire power, uncompromised performance and maneuvrability. And a huge main sensor enabling a mini-AWACS role.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 28 Aug 2015 02:22

So why is the IAF isn't purchasing your beloved F35, aditional MKI or even LCA ? I can understand your embarassment with a possible rafale deal since it doesn't fit in any of your theory on fighter jets. Unless IAF is totally incompetent in its technical evaluation, your theories are just plain wrong. I'll tell you: IAF has tested and faced rafale long enough to know its worth. It wouldn't spend that much money if it had doubts on its capabilities. And actually they want more of it. Sensor fusion, advanced MMI, cutting edge EW is something that IAF certainly has an eye on.

And advocating for the F35 in India is just a loss of time. It won't happen.

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 28 Aug 2015 03:50

arthuro wrote:So why is the IAF isn't purchasing your beloved F35, aditional MKI or even LCA ?

Well if the IAF isn't going to buy anything besides Rafale it's pretty screwed as it can't afford enough to make up for falling numbers.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Aug 2015 03:51

arthuro wrote:So why is the IAF isn't purchasing your beloved F35, aditional MKI or even LCA ? I can understand your embarassment with a possible rafale deal since it doesn't fit in any of your theory on fighter jets. Unless IAF is totally incompetent in its technical evaluation, your theories are just plain wrong. I'll tell you: IAF has tested and faced rafale long enough to know its worth. It wouldn't spend that much money if it had doubts on its capabilities. And actually they want more of it. Sensor fusion, advanced MMI, cutting edge EW is something that IAF certainly has an eye on.

And advocating for the F35 in India is just a loss of time. It won't happen.

Hmm... a rhetorical argument? Well the obvious answer is bureaucratic inertia. It was selected during a period where the F-35 wasn't in the picture and with a ToT/local production model in place. Neither applies today. The F-35 delivers better sensor fusion, better MMI, arguably better EW, and a far better radar than the Rafale. And stealth. And cheaper weaponry.

But the obvious rejoinder is - why have the vast majority of air forces booted out the Rafale only to pick between the F-35 and Gripen. Unless they're all 'totally incompetent' too?

As I recall, what you were saying back then was that only the Rafale could do because France had promised to 'teach' India how to develop aircraft. And then you were excited about the current 36 unit deal being just a supplement to the main MMRCA contract. So now what's the appeal of a purely off-the-shelf purchase?

Here at BRF we aren't required affirm govt choices, so if they take a decision that's perceived as a mistake (such as ordering these off-the-shelf Rafales), few will sugarcoat their response. If you want to support your argument, do it with facts. Don't resort to - 'important people have taken the decision, so it must be right'. Not unless you also wish to endorse their decision to cancel the deal for 126 Rafales.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Aug 2015 04:09

LOL if not for the Qatar/Egypt deals, the French would be sh!tting bricks that the IAF is now at only 36 Rafale as versus 126 earlier. So now all the high level gas about how advanced and fancy the Rafale is given there are at least some other orders, and given the IAF is behaving in a ham handed fashion (no Plan B ) and what not to force the GOI to get it the Rafale. Of course, if even this 36 order is cancelled then there is every chance any other fighter can end up in the IAF stable.

If only 60 aircraft are to be purchased, which seems the maximum at this point, then there is little to support a Rafale versus a 5G platform. At least the JSF will have some proper degree of capability as a day one door kicker above and beyond a Su-30 today. The Rafale barely achieves Su-30 level performance in some areas today and will be behind a Super 30 in raw performance in many key areas. The French don't even have the munitions diversity of the Russians and on top of it, don't want to integrate third party items either. What exactly is the point of buying a handful of Rafales then? In the 2020+ timeframe, its way behind the PAK-FA/T-50, the JSF and probably even the J-20.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Aug 2015 04:37

Or yeh lo, Air International via, Austin

Rafale deliveries to the
AdlA in 2015 and 2016 will
go ahead during the current
Military Programming Act
2014-2019 according to
statements by the French air
arm and Dassault. In 2014 the
average age of an AdlA Rafale
was six years with a fleet
serviceability rate of 48%.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Aug 2015 06:10

kit wrote:The future has arrived ..how long will the Rafale be relevant ?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ow-382100/

When the press (even phoren press) inform the public that "this is the future of warfare" it is invariably sales talk - looking for some market and softening up attitudes of buyers to accept that this news item represents a future must-have. If BRF swallows this - that is fine because that is all we know. But If a military person simply swallows this - then we have a juicy and half-useless business deal coming up in future, whether or not this really represents the future of war.

When new weapons were being designed in the 1990s no one ever said that the "future of war" would be hunting men in caves or getting individual vehicles on highways. But they made their money back them by making bullshit glossy predictions about "The future of warfare" which turd worlders lap up.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Aug 2015 09:21

quote="Mort Walker"]

Austin wrote:A gent in the know I spoke with couple of months back mentioned that though the reported squadron level is at 32 but the real strength is some where around 24-25 that can be used in conflict ( Note I am not talking about operational availability but the real squadron that available )

IAF squadron issue is much more acute then what is reported by MOD , I think IAF is noosehardy for the same reason its a case of now or never , if Rafale deal gets cancelled then they may have to wait for 5 more years for the next deal to be signed if at all or just resign to the fate of operating much lower number of squadron , which in any case is operating at lower sanctioned squadron level.

Which is pretty good as that is 75% availability.[/quote]

No not really , The official Squad Strength is around 32 but in reality its close to 24 and 25 , the remaining are just number plated and some with very low availability.

The over all availability of xyz % is within 24/25 squadrons

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Aug 2015 09:24

^^^I was referring to 24-25/32 squadrons. Ideally it would be good to have 60 combat aircraft squadrons with 20 a/c each.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 28 Aug 2015 10:36

Ajay Shukla reports:

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 035_1.html

Business Standard also learns the IAF has vetoed a Russian offer to co-develop a fifth-generation engine for the FGFA. This is baffling to the Russians, given the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) long-standing attempts at joint engine development in order to end India's expensive dependency on foreign vendors for aero engines. An internal DRDO estimation reckons that India will import aero engines worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over the next decade

But even the defence ministry is questioning why the IAF is delaying a project it has earlier championed, and to which India has committed itself with an Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement (IGA) and the expenditure of about $300 million in a "preliminary design phase". Critics of the IAF allege it is scuttling the long-term benefits of co-developing the FGFA in order to quickly buy the Rafale, preferably in numbers larger than the 36 fighters that the prime minister requested in Paris in April. A defence ministry official says that, in its eagerness to obtain the Rafale, the IAF has deliberately placed holds on every other aircraft procurement, including the FGFA, the Tejas and the plan to extend the Jaguar's service life by fitting it with a new engine.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 28 Aug 2015 11:33

Nitesh wrote:Ajay Shukla reports:

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 035_1.html

Business Standard also learns the IAF has vetoed a Russian offer to co-develop a fifth-generation engine for the FGFA. This is baffling to the Russians, given the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) long-standing attempts at joint engine development in order to end India's expensive dependency on foreign vendors for aero engines. An internal DRDO estimation reckons that India will import aero engines worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over the next decade

But even the defence ministry is questioning why the IAF is delaying a project it has earlier championed, and to which India has committed itself with an Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement (IGA) and the expenditure of about $300 million in a "preliminary design phase". Critics of the IAF allege it is scuttling the long-term benefits of co-developing the FGFA in order to quickly buy the Rafale, preferably in numbers larger than the 36 fighters that the prime minister requested in Paris in April. A defence ministry official says that, in its eagerness to obtain the Rafale, the IAF has deliberately placed holds on every other aircraft procurement, including the FGFA, the Tejas and the plan to extend the Jaguar's service life by fitting it with a new engine.

Ah...This is perhaps what some call "bureautic inertia"...Just like MoD's decision to cancel the bureaucraticly driven MMRCA tender.

Actually IAF insistance on the rafale is a deliberate choice based on detail knowledge of the aircraft. The fact that it tops it priorities even facing "so called" 5th gen fighter is telling about how under estimated it is by many. I am pretty sure it has some tricks that makes the difference which are not necessarly published in the public domain even though published information already indicates it is a great aircraft.

I am amuzed by the embarassment caused by IAF support as it flies in the face of so many pre-conceived ideas...I see so many desperate attempts to find possible explanations to dismiss rafale capabilities, quite telling of the level of distress of some. Even if the deal was to be canceled by Indian MoD, IAF support is quite telling.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Aug 2015 11:45

arthuro wrote:Ah...This is perhaps what some call "bureautic inertia"...Just like MoD's decision to cancel the bureaucraticly driven MMRCA tender.

Actually IAF insistance on the rafale is a deliberate choice based on detail knowledge of the aircraft. The fact that it tops it priorities even facing "so called" 5th gen fighter is telling about how under estimated it is by many. I am pretty sure it has some tricks that makes the difference which are not necessarly published in the public domain.

Its the 'joint development' that's being cancelled, not the acquisition itself. A perfectly logical decision given that the PAK FA program has progressed beyond the stage where India could meaningfully contribute to the development.

And the PAK FA is about ten years away from maturity, so its an option only over the long term. The F-35 on the other hand is already leaving the Rafale in the dust in most export markets; decisions made by professionals, based on detailed knowledge of the aircraft.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 28 Aug 2015 12:18

But the IAF could opt for SU30 Mki or accelerate LCA instead when MMRCA was canceled. Or it could simply lease aircrafts as an interim solution or going with another type like the SH if is it just about off the shelf buying.

There was plenty of alternative solutions quickly available and at a cheaper costs. Yet IAF still support the rafale which is telling of the faith it put in this aircraft.

Second, vast majority of F35 exports were not open tenders or with a strong US bias. You can't ignore that some countries are buying US aircafts for strategic reasons. Only in the Netherlands and Canada the rafale faced the F35. In the Netherlands the rafale was rated extremely close to the F35 and in Canada, many are criticising the US bias in the competition.

F16 is indeed a very succesful aircaft but it would be overstreched to say it is n°1 in performance in every area. The F15 had less exports although it outpeforms the F16 in key areas.

That being said, the F35 is a fine aircraft but you better need to be perfectly aligned with US interests. For this reason, the F35 will never going to make it in the Indian inventory and debating this possibility does not interest me.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Aug 2015 13:07

arthuro wrote:But the IAF could opt for SU30 Mki or accelerate LCA instead when MMRCA was canceled. Or it could simply lease aircrafts as an interim solution or going with another type like the SH if is it just about off the shelf buying.

There was plenty of alternative solutions quickly available and at a cheaper costs. Yet IAF still support the rafale which is telling of the faith it put in this aircraft.

Second, vast majority of F35 exports were not open tenders or with a strong US bias. You can't ignore that some countries are buying US aircafts for strategic reasons. Only in the Netherlands and Canada the rafale faced the F35. In the Netherlands the rafale was rated extremely close to the F35 and in Canada, many are criticising the US bias in the competition. Canadian surveys telling that the F35 was laging behind in Canada's war scenarios.

F16 is indeed a very succesful aircaft but it would be overstreched to say it is n°1 in performance in every area. The F15 had less exports although it outpeforms the F16 in key areas.

That being said, the F35 is a fine aircraft but you better need to be perfectly aligned with US interests.

- At $200 million each, the IAF doesn't get to have its own way. And for good reason. No one here is saying that the Rafale isn't a good aircraft. It is however a horribly overpriced one.
- The Netherlands did a paper evaluation in 2004 (as a negotiating tactic). And still opted to stick with the F-35. As did the other nine nations.
- All the complaints about the 'US bias' are coming from NGOs and similar busybodies. The air forces, in contrast, are delighted about it. Not one has lobbied for the Rafale to be bought instead.

As for the ~~last fig leaf~~ political factor, two things worth noting -

One, we already operate the P-8I, C-130J, C-17 and are negotiating for the JSTARS, AH-64E and Chinook. A modicum of comfort clearly exists, and a limited order of fighter jets isn't going to tip the scales. I'd posit the Russians (and Taiwanese) are less satisfied with their French purchases.

Two, most of the militaries we exercise with are going to be F-35 operators - Israel, US, UK, Japan, Australia, Singapore. France meanwhile, has been lobbying to get the EU arms embargo on the PRC lifted.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 28 Aug 2015 13:20

arthuro wrote: Second, vast majority of F35 exports were not open tenders or with a strong US bias. You can't ignore that some countries are buying US aircafts for strategic reasons. Only in the Netherlands and Canada the rafale faced the F35. In the Netherlands the rafale was rated extremely close to the F35 and in Canada, many are criticising the US bias in the competition.

Funny thing is countries are picking the F-35 after evaluating it on a simulator while rejecting the Rafale during normal trials.

IAF's vision is cloudy, they have had cataracts in their eyes for over a decade now.

Them continuing to lobby for the Rafale doesn't show any clarity of judgment, its only shows that the higher ups are at the very least deeply confused.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Aug 2015 13:22

Err.. you may want to edit that last line, before one of the mods comes strolling around. Criticism, yes. Name calling/direct insults, no.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Aug 2015 13:53

Septimus P. wrote:...

Funny thing is countries are picking the F-35 after evaluating it on a simulator while rejecting the Rafale during normal trials.

IAF's vision is cloudy, they have had cataracts in their eyes for over a decade now.

Them continuing to lobby for the Rafale doesn't show any clarity of judgment, its only shows that the higher ups are at the very least deeply confused.

Septimus P. IAF trialed Rafale as part of MMRCA. F35 was not there.

You mention 'cataracts in their eyes for over a decade now" - why?

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 28 Aug 2015 13:55

Hopefuly I did not saw this last line

As for F35, just doing my cpatain obvious : it is not coming in Indian Armed forces.

Listen, France which has a well known idenpendent stance also operates sensitive US hardware like AWACS, Hawkeyes, Reapers, Hercules, weapons, NATO Link 16 and a full string of other US equipments...But there is a limit, and fighter jets are beyhond that limit.
Being an ally of the US does not mean we would buy anything from the US.

So the case for India operating the F35 because of P8 etc is a bit far stretched...Altough the US would be ready to share many things on the SH or the F16, I have my doubts that it will allow india to get its hands free on the source codes etc...Only the UK has that right and I remember it was british minister himself who had to beg permission for access to the american gov at the highest level. This was not even granted at the beginning eventhough UK are tier one partner.

To put it short, your F35 dream is just...Well a dream...It simply won't happen in India.

F35 is a fine aircraft for those who are aligned with US foreign policy. For others like India it is not an option. As for the rafale it compared fairly well against the F35 in the single technicle evaluation from the Netherlands which is the only independent comparison that we have today and based on manufacturer datas covering more than 700 criteria.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... GgodBMYKJg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Aug 2015 14:18

imo only way to run a hassle free and wide ranging program of domestic A2A and A2G weapons, sensor pods which is a must to drive down costs is to have a domestic fighter and a domestic AESA radar (most of the missiles needs some radar and fcs integration)

rest we can argue all day over rafale vs JSF, each will extract their pound of flesh on a case by case basis for each integration and sometimes deny selectively. like a korrupt govt babu who charges to move each file from table to table, so too we will have to pay heavily for astra mk1 , and then ngarm, and then nglgb , and then astra mk2........its a problem with no end with sight.

secondly integrating foreign weapons will see lot of foot dragging as its a net loss for them vs selling their own.

so better get the tejas and uttam / el2032 in service asap or else we will end up with 36 of A, 50 of B, 45 of C as usual.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Aug 2015 14:56

US offers 5th gen F-35 stealth fighter to India

Ashton Carter wrote: "There is nothing on our side, no principle which bars
that on our side, Indian participation in the Joint Strike
Fighter.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Aug 2015 15:15

arthuro wrote:Listen, France which has a well known idenpendent stance also operates sensitive US hardware like AWACS, Hawkeyes, Reapers, Hercules, weapons, NATO Link 16 and a full string of other US equipments...But there is a limit, and fighter jets are beyhond that limit.
Being an ally of the US does not mean we would buy anything from the US.

So the case for India operating the F35 because of P8 etc is a bit far stretched...Altough the US would be ready to share many things on the SH or the F16, I have my doubts that it will allow india to get its hands free on the source codes etc...Only the UK has that right and I remember it was british minister himself who had to beg permission for access to the american gov at the highest level. This was not even granted at the beginning eventhough UK are tier one partner.

- We aren't getting the 'source code' or ToT for the Rafale. Why would we demand it from different OEM?
- Also, once the UAI is operational (Blk 4), a customer will be able to integrate any weapon independently, while also offering it for export.

- What is the salient difference between an off-the-shelf P-8I & F-35A? Nothing. 12 P-8Is haven't caused us to change our foreign policy. 40-50 F-35s won't do so either.
- As for France drawing the line at American fighter jets, we both know that's total BS. The French Navy flew the F-8 Crusader for pver 35 years, until they were replaced by the Rafale M.
- If 'independent' France could live with 42 F-8s without the sky coming down, India too can live the F-35 without compromising its foreign policy.

F35 is a fine aircraft for those who are aligned with US foreign policy. For others like India it is not an option. As for the rafale it compared fairly well against the F35 in the single technicle evaluation from the Netherlands which is the only independent comparison that we have today and based on manufacturer datas covering more than 700 criteria.

That's wishful thinking and you know it. Nobody out there (save for a few ideologues) would ever put the Rafale at par with F-35. And if you weren't constrained by national loyalty you wouldn't do so either. For five years, you've been telling the forum how the Rafale would have the first shot opportunity against any peer based on its lower RCS and highly sensitive ESM system, thus compensating for the puny radar. There is no logical reason why it would retain that 'advantage' against an opponent that's superior to it in all three counts. That's a plain fact and obvious to the forum.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Aug 2015 15:50

The Rafale will not be cancelled - at least I do not think so.

This is a political purchase. A good, expensive, out of character plane, that will be outdated in 10-15 years. And will cost a ton more to keep it up.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 28 Aug 2015 16:19

I am pretty sure IAF will get rafale's source codes (let's see) and for a first tier ally of France it shouldn't pose any issue as this was part of the package proposed to Brazil, Switzerland and now Canada. For the F35 just forget it, don't even ask.

And sorry for the reality check : India won't buy the F35.

As for relative capabilities, what counts is the mission: and the rafale has also been designed to survive in heavily defended air space (nuclear deterent for France). It is being continuously upgraded to be on page against modern threats.

I am pretty sure this is actually rafales's surviavability (thank you spectra), which makes the rafale special against more conventional aircrafts of its generation. This is in my view why it kept scoring so high in various technical evaluations and why IAF is so insistant.

I am not downplaying the F35. I am sure the F35 will perform also very well in defended environement, perhaps better no contest about that. However the rafale is also very, very good at it relying on its own special set of fetures and satisfies IAF.

Since the F35 is not an option for Indian at this stage, The rafale is an excellent choice for deep strike missions, a role it has been excelling at.

Now I know the answer : SAMs , AESA radars vs EW etc....I'll tell you this. France has a long history of low altitude & deep strike and knows its business and rafales are not being upgraded for nothing. It is certainly more risky than using a UCAV, but it works. You could argue it is the poor man's choice...There is some truth in it but still offer sufficient level of survivability. With appropriate planification, tactics & training it has everything to succeed.

I would even argue than with the advent of GaN AESA radar and other ant stealth techniques, your beloved stealth jet flying straight an high will become a sitting duck...While even the most modern and powerfull radar cannot do anything against terrain masking.

Yes you can imagine impossible scenarios where not even en F35 or a UCAV would survive...But it remains the rafale will be a huge leap forward in terms of capability for the IAF.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 28 Aug 2015 16:31

Re Shiv

Extrapolating from Information released when Rafale participated in Brazil tender, each Rafale would cost around USD 300 million for Rafale plus 30 year spares & other support.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Aug 2015 16:33

Gyan wrote:Re Shiv

Extrapolating from Information released when Rafale participated in Brazil tender, each Rafale would cost around USD 300 million for Rafale plus 30 year spares & other support.

Not bad if true , 30 years of full spare support etc is something what MMRCA tender had in terms of Life cycle cost

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 28 Aug 2015 16:38

I think the best that can happen to mother India is Rafale be cancelled, publicly announced and IAF told to start procurement keeping that in mind.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 28 Aug 2015 17:00

Septimus P. IAF trialed Rafale as part of MMRCA. F35 was not there.

You mention 'cataracts in their eyes for over a decade now" - why?[/quote]

I speak of countries where F-35 did participate against the Rafale and the nations picking the F-35 have never flown the bird during evaluations, even the simulated F-35 is better than the actual Rafale it seems.

As for IAF's vision impairment, the way they handled the whole MRCA to LCA etc. are pretty much proof of their short sightedness.