India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 17 Aug 2015 22:14

Karan M wrote:Huge ramifications if it works out. We are very dependent on kevlar and other imported items so far to make our BPJs and then any advanced abroad have to be jury rigged in

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 418208.cms

Bullet-proof vests to shed weight by half
---------------------------------------------------------------
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Average weight of bullet proof vests: 3.8 kg

Wight of vests made of polymeric liquid: 1.5-1.8kg

Project cost: Rs 29 lakh (approx)

Project time: 3 years (started in June, 2014)

Impressive. And if you look at the time and money factor, its next to nothing.

Current product is "Zylon Body armor" sold by Second Chance, (part of Armor Holdings Inc (part of BAE)), and material (Zylon) sourced from Japan (Toyobo Co., Ltd).

But this comes with following kicker. I hope our case study took following into consideration.

But protective vests constructed with Zylon became controversial in late 2003 when Oceanside, CA Police Officer Tony Zeppetella's and Forest Hills, PA Police Officer Ed Limbacher's vests failed, leaving Zeppetella mortally wounded and Limbacher seriously injured. Some studies subsequently reported that the Zylon vests may degrade rapidly,[4] leaving wearers with significantly less protection than expected. Second Chance eventually recalled all of its zylon-containing vests, which led to its subsequent bankruptcy. In early 2005, Armor Holdings, Inc. first recalled its existing Zylon-based products, and decreased the rated lifespan warranty of new vests from 60 months to 30 months.[5] In August 2005, AHI decided to discontinue manufacturing all of its Zylon-containing vests. This was largely based on the actions of the U.S. government's National Institute of Justice, which decertified Zylon for use in its approved models of ballistic vests for law enforcement

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Aug 2015 23:31

Sid and the liquid has to remain functional in the wide variety of ambient temperatures our troops operate in, -40deg to + 40 deg celsius

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2015 11:04

x-posting my rant from tsp arms sale thread:- khan has given 374 M113 IFV for free to TSP.

I had suggested we harvest M113 from the boneyard for our own use and even license build it as a cheap and protected people mover(vs trucks) since being out of production, the license will likely be really cheap and we can localize to our hearts content...like adding thin sheets of composite armour, anti-missile slat armour, manual Nag launcher , Nag-VL carrier, anti-personnel radar-optronic picket post...once u have a cheap cardboard box, anything can be put on it and tried out. it could be carried inside C130 as well or in our LST ships.

instead we have the armata thing

IA makes no serious effort to lever the skills of our automotive industry in useful projects and mass scale production , blurring the line between
civil and mil kit atleast in transport sector.

meantime the PLA has been using these cheap useful garden buggies in tibet...golf carts, small 8x8 ATVs, 2 man ATVs.
http://www.military-today.com/trucks/ch ... atv_l1.jpg

how is a IA unit on foot patrol supposed to deal with such threats in the open terrain of tibet. they will run rings and destroy the unit. even for peacetime patrol this thing will cover 5 times the area with 2 times the load and 10 times less personal fatigue. all gear can be kept dry in fording shallow rivers.

if we ever get around to it, a expensive global tender will be floated to get the best available (50 units), vs 5000 from local production that will be good enough.

we dont seem to have tried even removing the turret and its cage from BMP2 which we license built for decades and making it a M113 style roomy cheap cardboard box for various roles....except in the Namica, which not surprisingly the army does not want!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2015 11:31

If I am not wrong M113 lacks Amphibious capability and IA for both tracked and wheeled platform even in latest venture has asked for such capability even the currently used BMP have it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2015 11:31

Made in India, but gathering dust

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2015 12:32

Austin - some myths about the M113 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYT96YGAZMI

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2015 12:37

sky is the limit for these two brothers
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 551039.ece

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 18 Aug 2015 18:48

Singha wrote:sky is the limit for these two brothers
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 551039.ece

Saar, the full article deserves to be posted. Benefits those who just browse BRF and don't have time to read all media sources individually (I did find it useful in my lurker days). And important in light of the 'Start Up India, Stand Up India' plan of PM Modi. And the bolded part below shows what's lacking in our system - over emphasis on rote learning some 'merge-sort' or such computer algorithm, or some IUPAC name for organic compound, without being encouraged to tinker around and figure things out ourselves. But when we are, see what we get.

The duo, who designed the antenna for the country’s first indigenous aircraft, are now flying high. And guess what? Their story began in a cowshed!

It was 1997. Louis and Kuruvilla J. George — brothers and, more importantly, men with scientific temper — hurriedly set up a makeshift lab in the cowshed of their 300-year-old ancestral house in Kochi.

They had received an order to make an airborne antenna for the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) — the country’s first indigenous aircraft. Both thrilled and nervous at the prospect of designing “antenna for something that flies,” it took the brothers a week to firm up their conviction. A year-and-a-half later, they found success as the vendor, NPOL, cleared the prototype. And with that the first indigenous aircraft had its antenna.
High-profile clients

Since then, Verdant Telemetry & Antenna Systems, the company founded by the duo, has been supplying cutting-edge antenna and related equipment to DRDO, HAL and BEL, to name a few of their high-profile clients.

Many a time, their exported antenna comes back to the country integrated into a system. Their biggest clientele is Indian defence and, internationally, the U.S., Europe and Israel.

The brothers began humbly by dabbling in mechanics as a hobby. The two would tinker endlessly with the lathe and tools at their father’s engineering workshop. At home, they had access to journals such as Popular Mechanics and Science Today. Their mother’s neatly labelled and filed botany drawings were another source of inspiration. In school, they studied pure science, and later Louis specialised in Composites technology.

Kuruvilla was the “geek,” who developed a sterling engine powered by an external heat source. His ‘sitting bicycle’ was another smart innovation.

His interest in Ham operations enabled him to chip in during disaster relief operations. Their friends, who often met the two for a game of badminton now and then, often found the things that preoccupied them a bit odd.

After the first order, things changed. The sanctions imposed after the Pokhran blasts brought a deluge of orders and Verdant scaled new heights. “We noted an unhealthy thing and proved that the belief that the West is better is wrong,” says Louis, adding that they made all attempts to manufacture a product, from beginning to end, with materials available in the country.

Going against the tide of reverse engineering that aims at matching imported products, the brothers began designing and modelling to specifications. “In due course, you won’t find the components. It is always better to innovate,” says Kuruvilla.

Constant innovation is Louis’ trump card. The candidates they select for their company are people who think out of the box. Once, they chose a candidate who compared the antenna to a tyre that could not be changed mid-air “as there’s no parking.”

The brothers are now inundated with requests for design solutions in communication and navigation from companies facing design and engineering challenges. “The Make in India future is all about creating the right environment for technology to grow and an ecosystem to safeguard IP,” says Louis. “A lot of shift has happened but toward software development. Hardware and metallurgy start-ups are being ignored.”

Success has given them much and now, they can afford to take some time off to go back and play badminton, which they enjoyed playing near the cowshed in those early days of tinkering with machines.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 18 Aug 2015 20:13

^^^
wow. Truly inspiring. Thanks for posting in full.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Aug 2015 16:25

Hyderabad-tech puts aerospace, defence manufacturing in new orbit

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Aug 2015 02:23

Just found out that the "skilled" category, in India, (in manufacturing) is at 2.5% of the population, while SK is at 96%, Japan around 60%, etc.

IF true, that is a huge gap to make up, even with Modi's efforts.

No matter how much is invested in R&D, unless this base is brought along at the same time, it is a huge challenge. Difficult to overcome.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 21 Aug 2015 07:30

exactly what "skill" is being referred to here.

there are a whole lot of skills that can be picked up in short order as long as the person is literate.

now if you're in banking, you need bulsh&tting skills ... which take some time to acquire.

but other than that, skills can be learnt as long as the person is able & willing to learn.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2015 17:13

NRao wrote:Just found out that the "skilled" category, in India, (in manufacturing) is at 2.5% of the population, while SK is at 96%, Japan around 60%, etc.

IF true, that is a huge gap to make up, even with Modi's efforts.

No matter how much is invested in R&D, unless this base is brought along at the same time, it is a huge challenge. Difficult to overcome.

Interesting statistic. This is why do do not really have a skilled labour force that we can pick from whenever we want. The US solves this problem by importing skilled labour from India and China. That is why 100% of the Indian labour force in the US are "skilled" . They get more money than India but overall (as a group that includes temporary workers) less than in the US and even those who earn equally or more have already subsidized the US because the US has not had to spend a paisa on education for imported skilled labour. And now even their spouses will be skilled.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Aug 2015 18:35

Neshant wrote:exactly what "skill" is being referred to here.

there are a whole lot of skills that can be picked up in short order as long as the person is literate.

now if you're in banking, you need bulsh&tting skills ... which take some time to acquire.

but other than that, skills can be learnt as long as the person is able & willing to learn.

shiv wrote: Interesting statistic. This is why do do not really have a skilled labour force that we can pick from whenever we want. The US solves this problem by importing skilled labour from India and China. That is why 100% of the Indian labour force in the US are "skilled" . They get more money than India but overall (as a group that includes temporary workers) less than in the US and even those who earn equally or more have already subsidized the US because the US has not had to spend a paisa on education for imported skilled labour. And now even their spouses will be skilled.

"Manufacturing". (NOT service or any other industry.)

The one that impacts "Make in India" directly.

Turns out there is an increased cost to Making something in India, which just may negate the benefits of making a product in India.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 21 Aug 2015 19:37

^I don't think Make in India refers only to German and Japanese style highly-skilled and high-tech manufacturing. We need to employ hundreds of millions, and such pickiness is not going to serve us well. As for basic education that is a must even for the bare skills of mass manufacturing, but I don't think anyone is disputing that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Aug 2015 20:20

Here is a quote from a post I had made in 2012 in a thread I had started then

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1282319

India's first engineers were trained in the mid 1850s. They were only civil engineers and only a handful were trained in the early colleges in Kolkata and Chennai (and Rourkee, I think). It was not until the 1930s that the first mechanical engineers were trained in India. So by 1940 India had a modest educated class of people who were from backgrounds like the royalty and armed forced (kshatriya), business (vysya) and some brahmins who served as accountants, clerks and scientific helpers to the British. India had virtually no "manufacturing class" (shudra). Oh we had millworkers, and railway workers. But no factories where goods designed by indians for India were produced. Of course in the middle of all this, about 90% of Indians were illiterate anyway (1930 figures). Compare that with about 80% literate in Europe and 90% literate in the USA at that time! By that time the fathers or grandfathers of BRFites today had been born.

In 1950 or so Britain had 9 million factory workers, 18% of the population. Check the comparison for India:

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary. ... king+Class
On the eve of World War I there were 951,000 factory workers in India. A quarter of a century later (1939) there were 1,751,000. During the period between the two world wars the total number of industrial workers, including artisans, remained virtually unchanged
.

India's share of industrial production and industrial output in the world is directly related to our shudras, the factory workers and engineers and even after independence we had a miniscule number.

India had 370 million people in 1950. We only had 10-15% literacy and about 2 million factory workers. Britain had 50 million people, about 90% literacy and 9 million factory workers. And they still had to import workers for their factories! Our literate people in 1950 were ruling class, business families, military officers and government employees. We hardly had any engineers. Our colleges had started producing mechanical, chemical and electrical and other engineers barely 15 years before 1950.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 26 Aug 2015 17:56

From L&T Annual Report 2015

On the execution front, the year saw award-winning process improvements leading to record production rate of ‘missile-a-day’ (Akash) output at Coimbatore, and healthy progress in serial production of bridging systems from Strategic System Complex, Talegaon.

SIPL has also developed technology to position and control high precision Gimbal platform for directed energy weapon applications and is a key player in the design, development and engineering of Integrated Life Support System for LCA.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Aug 2015 03:49

A Sharma wrote:From L&T Annual Report 2015

On the execution front, the year saw award-winning process improvements leading to record production rate of ‘missile-a-day’ (Akash) output at Coimbatore, and healthy progress in serial production of bridging systems from Strategic System Complex, Talegaon.

SIPL has also developed technology to position and control high precision Gimbal platform for directed energy weapon applications and is a key player in the design, development and engineering of Integrated Life Support System for LCA.

With current orders of around 2000 Akash missiles (8 IAF squadrons and 2 IA regiments), missile-a-day would take around 5.5 years to complete. Future orders in phased manner will likely exceed 6000 missiles (24 IAF squadrons and 4 IA regiments). Production rate of missile-a-day would mean a healthy 15-year production run i.e. continue at least till around year 2030.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Aug 2015 20:12

In other words a missile a day is insufficient and the rate needs to be scaled up if more orders are placed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Aug 2015 20:04

DRDO renames Hyd-based missile wings (RCI, DRDL & ASL) as Dr APJ Abdul Kalam Missile Complex. Circular out.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 01 Sep 2015 06:33

x-posting from the Indian Mil Aviation thread

IAF looks to in indigenise the tyres used on its fleet of aircrafts

The Indian Air Force [IAF], earlier this month, invited an 'Expression of Interest' [EOI], "from reputed Indian firms for indigenous development of main and nose wheel tyres of all types of aircraft operated by the IAF". Additionally it stated that the, "company should be able to develop the main and nose wheel tyres as per the procedure laid down in DDPMAS 2002 and carry out complete qualification trials for the same as per Qualifying Test Schedules approved by CEMILAC".

Vendors would have to provide 10 samples of their product for testing & certification, which would be followed by the placing of contract.

via IAF Unhappy With MRF? Searching For Partners To Manufacture Aircraft Tyres

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Sep 2015 06:50

^^^
Sounds like standard RFI for competitive bidding. I don't see why it has anything to do with "being unhappy with MRF". In fact it's probably the opposite--success of indigenous MRF MKI tyre solution allows for this model to be expanded on a wider scale. There are quite a few types of aircraft involved: MiG-21/27/29, Mirage-2000, Jaguar, Su-30MKI, LCA, PC-9, Hawk AJT, Donair, C-130, C-17, An-32, IL-76, Boeing-737, Embrer, LCH, Chinook, Apache and Mil-17. MRF has an advantage and would probably win most of this contest having successfully developed tyres for MKI and knowing the R&D process well. But who knows others may be able to offer tyres better suited for certain aircraft types or conditions than MRF's one. Both could be bought for the same aircraft type too and interchanged to suit conditions.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 01 Sep 2015 06:59

Sorry, should have checked the link before posting. So deleting now.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Sep 2015 07:38

Arun Menon wrote:^How else would .....

Umm, Hiten's one of us, an enthusiast.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 01 Sep 2015 08:10

Thakur_B wrote:Umm, Hiten's one of us, an enthusiat.

Good God, I thought it was the regular presstitute tripe, not some blog. I am deleting that post immediately.

The way we receive questions depend on the who is asking it and what is the intention of asking, as much as the question itself.

No disrespect was intended.

Thakur_B, please delete the my quote in your post. I will be much obliged.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 01 Sep 2015 23:19

DRDO Technologies Focus - Laser Technologies

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 03 Sep 2015 16:57

100 kW Aditya Gas Dynamic Laser.

courtesy: S Jha tweeter , This DRDO publication have all the details even S Jha copy pasted from here
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... 15_WEB.pdf

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 03 Sep 2015 17:22

I thought I would never say this. But "I am really really impressed and elated DRDO".

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 04 Sep 2015 15:52

Aiyooo
Lookie what a 150W laser can do.
To scale up to weapons grade system needs

- focussing lenses
- cooling
- integrating with radar and associated orientation mechanisms for pointing and firing.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 04 Sep 2015 17:08

Can We Kill The BM by These Laser !! Like Use able As A BMD??

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Sep 2015 17:41

Lets not get ahead of our-self.

Its looks like a fully working weapon prototype with stabilized platform and optical tracking. It would be interesting to know if its already being fired and for how long. Since DRDO is publishing these pictures now (just when Chinese parade was taking place) we can safely assume it already fired few shots.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 05 Sep 2015 23:24

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 06 Sep 2015 00:05

^^^

Being a brand for precision engineering they could use the 150W laser at 6:45 in the above video.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 06 Sep 2015 14:26

dhiraj wrote:

Love this make in India series for defence sector by cnbc.

It brings out a lot of unknowns of indian defence sector

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 08 Sep 2015 06:03

DRDO names new Director General, first woman in the role.

In a first, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), will have a woman scientist heading an important cluster with the high rank of a Director General.

J Manjula, has been appointed the new Director General (DG - Electronics & Communications Systems or ECS) today. She will be one of the seven DG's, who are heading different clusters within the DRDO, which has nearly 50 national laboratories and Institutes under its network.

A recognised expert in electronic warfare systems for Air Force, Manjula is an Outstanding Scientist and Director of Bengaluru-based DARE, Defence Avionics Research Establishment.

She brings vast experience in EW systems, following a long stint with the Hyderabad-based, DLRL (Defence Electronics Research Laboratory), which is a pioneer in EW systems and cutting edge communications.

An Alumni of Osmania University, she briefly worked with the Electronics Corporation of India Ltd. in Hyderabad, before joining the DLRL in 1987

The over 55-year old DRDO in heirarchy has a Director General, S Christopher (appointed a few months ago) and 7 DGs heading various clusters. The clusters are fallout of the implementation of the P Rama Rao Committee on restructuring the Organisation. It came into effect in 2013.

Some of the clusters include Missiles & Strategic Systems, Armaments, and Aeronautics.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 08 Sep 2015 19:21

Tata Power begins work to setup Rs 450 crore defence manufacturing facility.

Tata Power on Tuesday started work to set up its Rs 450 crore defence manufacturing facility in Karnataka with the state's Chief Minister Siddaramaiah laying its foundation stone. "The foundation stone laying ceremony for the greenfield Defence Production facility of The Tata Power Company Limited, Strategic Engineering Division (Tata Power SED) at Vemagal (District Kolar), Karnataka, was held today," Tata Power said in a statement here. According to the statement, Chief Minister of Karnataka, Siddaramaiah laid the foundation stone of the facility.

Tata Power SED has a dedicated R&D set up at Mumbai and a 10.5 acres Defence Manufacturing facility at Electronics City, Bengaluru, operational since 1986.

"Over the next one year, the Division is making an investment of Rs 450 crore at its new 50-acre Vemagal facility to create a state-of-the-art integrated digital design to manufacturing facility for large systems engineering and integration," the company said. The facility is the largest strategic electronics manufacturing unit approved under the MSIPS program of DeitY, Government of India.

Also, the Karnataka government has been approached for additional land adjacent to the present site at Vemagal under the state's new industrial policy.

The facility will have ferrous/ non-ferrous structure manufacturing, precision engineering and machining capabilities, system/ shelter integration bays and specialised manufacturing/ test facilities for electronic warfare systems, inertial navigation systems and RF Systems among others. Additionally, it will cater to optronics and night vision equipment including tube and detectors manufacturing.

This integrated systems engineering facility will be able to deliver artillery and air defence weapon systems; network centric systems such as tactical Communication/ battlefield management systems; integrated electronic warfare systems and radar/ sensor Suites catering to the land, naval and airborne warfare requirements of the Indian Armed Forces.The facility will also be able to deliver systems for homeland security and is geared to produce clean energy solutions for defence as well as civilian use.

"The Vemagal investment is in line with the Company s commitment towards the 'Make in India initiative and the facility will be dedicated to the national effort of Swavalamban in the strategic defence sector," Tata Power SED CEO Rahul Chaudhry said.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Sep 2015 19:30

HAL copter unit project in Tumakuru hits roadblock

The proposed helicopter unit project of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at Gubbi in Tumakuru district has hit a roadblock with the defence public sector undertaking knocking on the doors of the State government on Monday.

HAL officials accompanied by Tumakuru MP Mudduhanumegowda and Bengaluru Rural MP D K Suresh met Energy Minister D K Shivakumar and requested the government to bear the cost of Rs 57 crore to shift three high-tension lines passing through the project site.

Following this, Shivakumar has agreed to include HAL’s request in the Cabinet agenda.
The government has granted 610 acres to HAL near Bidarehalla Kaval in Gubbi taluk for setting up the chopper unit. As per the original agreement, the Karnataka Power Transmission Corporation Ltd (KPTCL) would shift the three lines and the cost for shifting should be borne by HAL.

“However, the company is now saying that it will not be able to bear the cost. Since Karnataka is keen that the project should stay in Karnataka, I have agreed to bring the matter before the Cabinet. But I have in principle told HAL that KPTCL will not be able to bear the cost,” Shivakumar said, adding that the government would only be able to give certain concessions like waiving the supervision charge of 10 per cent.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 09 Sep 2015 15:22

I hope other states jump in the fray and offer land , concessions etc.

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 09 Sep 2015 15:53

chaanakya wrote:I hope other states jump in the fray and offer land , concessions etc.

Why? Has Karnataka shown any arrogance and shooed HAL away? The report itself says that Karnataka is keen to retain the project. Development need not be dog eat dog.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2015 16:41

The money needed is 57 crores. Piffling peanuts. Any miner/liquor baron minister from Karnataka could do that.