Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Sep 2015 20:41

Viv S wrote: I guess it was emotional and do apologize to those who's happiness was affected (incl. those who's taxes paid for the purchase). My argument - 'should have waited for and ordered an Indian aircraft instead', however remains unchanged.

Fair enough although, as I have pointed out, I disagree on a large number of counts.

Remember that "your generation" who you say are now being recruited by th Air Force are now into iPads, McD, TGIF, Dunkin Donuts, Kispy Kreme, Levis, Victoria's secret, Audi and other imported things and the argument that the IAF using a non Indian aircraft would not set a good example sounds hollow to me. Be that as it may. You and I have our views - it does not make sense to hit out and be critical of someone who might potentially disagree with you by making the needless comment"Worst part is that people are actually happy about this new development." You are deliberately pooping on someone else's happiness because you seem to want your point to stand out as the only opinion there should be. And 3 pages of argument simply because people have a different viewpoint? Not nice. Not nice for the forum. Not nice for the people who come for information.

From this point on there will be no more posts from me on this issue

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Sep 2015 21:06

And with that, let us close this discussion here. It has already gone way beyond when it should have been stopped.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 Sep 2015 21:08

shiv wrote:Remember that "your generation" who you say are now being recruited by th Air Force are now into iPads, McD, TGIF, Dunkin Donuts, Kispy Kreme, Levis, Victoria's secret, Audi and other imported things and the argument that the IAF using a non Indian aircraft would not set a good example sounds hollow to me.

I agree. Relatively few people are bothered by the high proportion of imported weaponry we use, despite a news article every now and then (and I'd posit it wasn't that different in the decades past). But far fewer will ever notice the absence of the SKAT if we did wait for it to be truly special.

You and I have our views - it does not make sense to hit out and be critical of someone who might potentially disagree with you by making the needless comment"Worst part is that people are actually happy about this new development." You are deliberately pooping on someone else's happiness because you seem to want your point to stand out as the only opinion there should be.

If you go back and see - you'll notice mine was the first post on the matter. It wasn't intended to attack any poster here or attempt to stifle any other PoV (well no more than of my other anti-import rants

). But yes the debate should have waited until the warm fuzzly feeling had faded, and people had had an opportunity to gush over the new acquisition. That point is taken.

That's the last from me as well.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 15 Sep 2015 21:15

duhhhh......the discussion is still struck with Aerobatics ...well from where that idea of flying indigenous jet for aerobatics have come up ??? SKAT used Kirans that doesn't translate to SKAT flying only HAL made jets . I guess earlier we had 3 a/c formation of MK2 and before that with hunters.

The question is , why Air force around the world have Aerobatic teams ???
1. To thrill aam people
3. Ambassadors of the Air Force
2. A prestige for any air force ( displaying the flying proficiency )
3. To add value to a show ( it need not be only air shows )
4. In the process above of four , people might get imbibed with the passion of flying .

Why Kirans were chosen for SKAT ??
1. Low performance jets are preferable for very close and large (9) formation flights and hence most trainer varieties are used ( yes there are exception with knights , etc )
2. Availability and cheap to acquire and operate.

Some people here like it or not , SKAT will be flying Hawks and that is the only logical conclusion . And for IJT to be with SKAT , let it be in IAF colors first !!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Sep 2015 21:40

Viv S wrote:The armed forces don't take note of high quality posts here either AFAIK.

The forum exists as a platform to exchange information and opinion on topics related to defense, armed forces and other pertinent strategic issues. The posts are an indicator of the quality of this exchange and discussion. It is for consumption of members of BRF and those who look up to BRF to glean quality information about such topics. Whether policy makers read BRF or takeaway anything from it is secondary.

However, given the state of discussions and level of knowledge displayed, I don't think the forum is able to serve the members or those who come here to read and understand issues related to above mentioned topics. And responsibility for this lies with the forum members.

As to the other part, it isn't illogical to assert that an aerobatics team costing $500 mil, needn't be an immediate priority for the country. Nor is it unreasonable to expect a national aerial display unit that routinely flies abroad, to perform in a nationally designed and built jet (as most of its peers do).

The 'illogical' part of the argument is to conflate between pilot skill in a display team and aircraft type flown. People look-up into the sky because of the pilot skill and not for the aircraft flown. IAF's display team went from Hunters flown by Thunderbolt team to Kiran trainers in Suryakiran team - the team is awesome because of pilot skill and not the type flown.

Fancy a/c type but bad pilot skills = bad display team. And no one bought AJT because RAF Red Arrow flew them or F/A-18 because Blue Angels flew them. Same for F-16 and Thunderbirds.

Coming to national priority, these 16 a/c and Suryakiran team is not some fancy toy for the IAF fighter jocks to play around with. Last time it was required, Suryakiran team was disbanded because those Kiran Mk2 were required for pilot training. The team was resurrected only after requirement for AJT was filled in the IAF.

IAF display team flying a domestic bird is noble intention but given the ground reality, not going to happen for a long long time. IJT is nowhere on horizon (even if it comes, it will first go to training establishment) and LCA can make it to a display team only when operational requirement of IAF front line squadrons is met.

There is no need to hold up resurrection of well established display team and skill sets because national birds are not on horizon for many years to come.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 15 Sep 2015 21:58

The issue I believe was whether it is worth spending USD 500 million dollars on an imported product for a display team. What about display teams for T-90 tanks, Talwar class frigates, Akula submarines, Hovercrafts etc. I suppose these will also be pretty awe inspiring too.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 15 Sep 2015 22:16

If you say for austere measure , there is no need for any public flying display teams at all. Well, 500 millions might be costly but serves several purpose ( read the posts above ) , they are not mere display teams . And what have tanks and frigates have to do with aviation. Anyway it is going OT , scooting out.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 15 Sep 2015 22:51

rohitvats wrote:The 'illogical' part of the argument is to conflate between pilot skill in a display team and aircraft type flown. People look-up into the sky because of the pilot skill and not for the aircraft flown. IAF's display team went from Hunters flown by Thunderbolt team to Kiran trainers in Suryakiran team - the team is awesome because of pilot skill and not the type flown.

Fancy a/c type but bad pilot skills = bad display team. And no one bought AJT because RAF Red Arrow flew them or F/A-18 because Blue Angels flew them. Same for F-16 and Thunderbirds.

Disagree. People always associate flight teams with the aircraft they fly. Defence awareness in India is still growing from very small base so that awareness may take some time to build, but elsewhere in the world people associate the Blue Angels with the Hornet, Thunderbirds with the F-16, Russian Knights with the Su-27, Red Arrows with the Hawk and so on.

One can't really prove this without carrying out a public survey (which is beyond my means), so this isn't more than an opinion, but I find it very hard to believe that the Sarang would be just as special had they been equipped with the (cheaper) Cheetahs/Chetaks instead.

Coming to national priority, these 16 a/c and Suryakiran team is not some fancy toy for the IAF fighter jocks to play around with. Last time it was required, Suryakiran team was disbanded because those Kiran Mk2 were required for pilot training. The team was resurrected only after requirement for AJT was filled in the IAF.

IAF display team flying a domestic bird is noble intention but given the ground reality, not going to happen for a long long time. IJT is nowhere on horizon (even if it comes, it will first go to training establishment) and LCA can make it to a display team only when operational requirement of IAF front line squadrons is met.

The example of the Sarang team is again worth examining. The Dhruv Mk1 entered service in 2002. The Sarang was setup in 2003 and had its first performance in 2004. The IAF/IA's requirements had hardly been met at that point. Far from it.

And while the Tejas might or might not be suitable for service until FOC req. are met (has been a subject of much debate, despite the no. of obsolete MiG-21/27s still serving), but as a trainer meant for aerobatics, its been more than suitable for quite a while now.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 16 Sep 2015 00:07

Shaun wrote:If you say for austere measure , there is no need for any public flying display teams at all. Well, 500 millions might be costly but serves several purpose ( read the posts above ) , they are not mere display teams . And what have tanks and frigates have to do with aviation. Anyway it is going OT , scooting out.

When IAF is scurrying for funds for their next fighter program, 500 mil actually matters a lot. In that much amount we can squeeze maybe 2-3 more Rafale (onhlyy!!). Personally I don't care which aircraft IAF flies for aerobatic display, but there is a time for everything.

One reason I can see why this order was awarded now was to keep Hawk assembly line busy before it goes into deep slumber (forever I guess). A contract at later stage might have costed a lot more since all the supply chain and assembly plants would have taken time and money to restart.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 16 Sep 2015 04:36

Viv S wrote:
The 'original argument' was about how we could have afforded to wait for another 3 years for an Indian aircraft before restarting the SKAT squadron.

Not going to happen - i.e. 3 years.

When was the Hawk inducted? February 2008.. i.e Seven years ago. It takes time to build operational procedures, including maintenance and flying SOPs that will take 1000s of hours of flying experience.

The IJT is nowhere near induction . Even if inducted today, Assume it will take another seven years. And if it gets inducted in two years time, then assume the aerobatic team takes nine years from now.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 18 Sep 2015 05:22

HAL’s light chopper set for flight trials

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2015 06:36

HAL should really give up the ghost of trying to grab all the work it can like KA226. they are stretched pumping out huge Dhruv order, will need to pull socks up for LCH and then LUH , have made little headway on the new tumkur helicopter plant and here they are whining for the ka226 also.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 18 Sep 2015 07:23

There are several issues here
1. HAL trying to save its turf , ploy to delay the JV so that LUH can fill up the space.
2. Even ruskis in 2 minds , one offering technical pool and the other money.
3. For commies( leftist ) now the congi too , reliance and adani ,certainly a no go area affecting GOI decision

MOD have to break this barrier once and for all , if they are really serious about revamping and augmenting India's MIC .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Sep 2015 07:29

What the .. Why is HALs LUH work not positive news? You guys want to be stuck at Uncle Russia's coat strings forever?
By doing flight trials, how the heck are they delaying things.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 18 Sep 2015 07:37

who told its not a positive news ??? The impression is HAL trying to block a competition , which is not a healthy news .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Sep 2015 07:46

Shaun wrote:who told its not a positive news ??? The impression is HAL trying to block a competition , which is not a healthy news .

Hello, how are they blocking a competition by developing a product GOI asked them to develop? You are engaging in rumor mongering of the nth kind, fed by the media which anyhow operates for vested interests. Its a simple thing. There is a LUH requirement and HAL was asked by GOI to make a chopper for it, they are doing so.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Sep 2015 07:49

How is this blocking a competition? HAL bashing for the sake of bashing? Cooked up stories based on indications and what not from a media which anyway makes up stuff trying to make hay of a prior GOI decision anyhow to split the order a long time back.

HAL is in race to complete the project in time to protect its space in the light helicopter category. The Government has approved the acquisition of 187 LUHs for the Indian Army from HAL. This will be in addition to the approximately 200 Russian Kamov-226 helicopters which will be integrated in India. These light helicopters are an urgent requirement for replacement of the vintage Cheetah-Chetak fleets.

India needs to make sure it gets as much stuff local as possible, HAL or anywhere else. These Ka-226s will just be screwdriver integrated, the only positive is it will set up some assembly capability in another firm. Day after day, there are stories of how we are getting issues with spares from our imports, and now you are just doing FUD over even a bit of positive news.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 18 Sep 2015 08:36

+1. Sometimes our hatred (well-deserved) for PSUs make us throw the baby with the bathwater. Rotten though they are, they are OUR rotten PSUs. People need to get that through their head.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 18 Sep 2015 08:44

Please Sir , no need to get "worked out" for "my FUD" as it won't change the policies or decisions of MOD .

India needs to make sure it gets as much stuff local as possible, HAL or anywhere else. These Ka-226s will just be screwdriver integrated, the only positive is it will set up some assembly capability in another firm. Day after day, there are stories of how we are getting issues with spares from our imports, and now you are just doing FUD over even a bit of positive news.

India needs to make sure it gets as much stuff as possible but for Ka-226 not from HAL but definitely anywhere else , even if it means screw giri ( I don't know how much HAL would have better that in this case) .Anyway i cited other reasons too , why the JV getting delayed . Now you choose explicitly the 1st point from my post, for that i can't help ,Sir.

On different note , HAL's Helo division is really doing commendable job in self reliance . With light combat helicopter we have reached new heights . LUH too will see faster induction because of the experience in ALH. Now the target should be for Medium and heavy lift helicopters .But the questions that comes up ,1. When HAL have a big order list for LUH , ALH , LCH , why bid for Ka-226 ?? wasn't Ka-226 JV for adding private capacity in helo building ?? and the reason Kamov was asked to choose it partners .

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 Sep 2015 08:52

HAL is three legged horse which is always stopping and grazing the greener import and screwdrivergiri grass. But still gold plated import pimp pig wants to shoot it dead so that there is no competition. Off course during the war pig will be wallowing in geopolitical mud rather than helping soldiers.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Sep 2015 09:47

The problem may solved to with division of HAL with each product - Helicopters, fighters, transports etc are all divided into separate companies under the same holding company, with significant disinvestment and listing of the stock of each company and the holding company in BSE NSE etc . GOI can hold majority stock of course.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Sep 2015 09:48

I don't think that there is an "either LUH or Ka 226" race going on.

India actually has such a huge market for helicopters that both will be needed. I suspect Ka-226 will come online with a pvt partner - but that may be the limiting factor unless they poach on HAL which has the only pool of skilled labour.

If LUH is test flown this year it will be at least another 4 years 2019-2020 before it ie ready to enter service. But HAL has the skills and the land and drive to do it - delay or no delay.

Just my 2 paise

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 18 Sep 2015 10:57

IMO, the Rotary Wing of HAL is its brightest star.

To add to what is being done:
HAL should start work on the medium lift platform or outright buy the Mi 17 design and manufacture license.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2015 11:20

HAL should design and build a large 12t EC725 type helicopter for naval and land use both.

we cannot forever keep importing the Mi17. the mi17 back ramp gives it some advantage it can take 105mm gun or jeep inside and drive it straight off, and it can continue in that.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Sep 2015 18:18

With so many MI-17s on order,surely it was a fit case for local manufacture/licence production .There was some report earlier on about both Hips and Kamovs being built in India.What we now need,as posters have mentioned above,is larger sized multi-role helo esp. for the IN where over 100 are required to replace old Sea Kings.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Sep 2015 20:35

Adding to Karan's and hakim's points, the decision to build a light helo based on Dhruv predates the Ka-226 talks by quite a few years. The original plan was to get 384 of these Indian built helos to replace the Cheetahs, chetaks etc. As the development of this helo slipped (largely due to the want of a gearbox for a single-engine Shakti based platform), GoI came up with a plan to split the orders. 187 HAL-built LUHs and 187 license built ones. This is where the KA-226T/Fennec/Bell came in.

After the design work of LUH/LCH is completed (looks like 3-4 years from now), HAL should restart its medium weight helo (IMRH/NMRH) project, and please no license manufacture here. They have the capability to design and build quality helicopters. No need to squander that away!

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Sep 2015 04:50

^^^

Hopefully, second part of domestic 187 LUH doesn't get the same treatment as the HTT. It was also supposed to be Pilatus for immediate need and then HTT for remaining but the user had other ideas.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Sep 2015 23:33

Let the Ka226 go to Chhota Bhai. HAL needs to focus on the LCH and the LUH.

As Hakeem Saheb has said - the market is vast. Both the Ka226 and the LUH can be absorbed in large numbers.

The LUH will likely have better performance at high altitudes than the Ka226. So it will be needed to replace the Cheetahs at Siachen. The Ka226 can fill in the Chetak's role in the plains.

Two parallel lines of light helicopters under two manufacturers will be needed to fill in the numbers.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Sep 2015 02:59

Every other country in the world treats a large order book as an opportunity for greater economies of scale and lower unit costs, improving its exports prospects, further lowering the unit cost. That's what made the Mi-17, Huey, F-16 etc. world beaters. When the F-35 requirement stood at 2,443 units, they didn't split the orders. They jacked up the production rate and rendered their European rivals uncompetitive (export orders will eventually cross 1000 aircraft).

Its only in India where an abundance of orders is welcomed as an opportunity to share the wealth with outsiders. First the Apache and now the Ka-226. And not even as a bridge to the LUH; a lovely great order, evidently larger than that for the LUH by design (200 vs 197). No even split for us, no siree.

I can't wait for the day they try to market the LUH against the Ka-226 in Vietnam and elsewhere. Should be a hilarious spectacle. Then again, we haven't particularly cared about exports so far, why should anything change in the future. Solid recipe for success: aim as low as possible. Make-in-India <facepalm>

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 20 Sep 2015 04:01

Viv S:

The LUH is not quite ready for production yet, while the older Chetaks and Cheetahs need replacement.

Ka226 deal, if structured well under "Make in India" makes sense.

Not every situation has to be looked at "either/or". For India, for a while it will have to be "and".

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Sep 2015 04:34

Kakkaji wrote:Viv S:

The LUH is not quite ready for production yet, while the older Chetaks and Cheetahs need replacement.

The Dhruv is in production and could tide us over. Maybe supplemented with a lease of no more than LUHs. 200 OTOH is sellout.

Ka226 deal, if structured well under "Make in India" makes sense.

Not every situation has to be looked at "either/or". For India, for a while it will have to be "and".

Giving away half the order upfront is akin to throwing in the towel. In an industry dominated by the Bell 407 and Fennec, we're enabling a Ka-226 success story, while the LUH fades away in the background (caption: 'used by the Indian military') as a product utterly devoid of credibility; none of its competitors had any issues sewing up their home market. Which wouldn't have been an issue if not for the fact that the LUH has the potential to be an extremely competitive product (extrapolating from the Dhruv program).

As for the Ka-226 & Make-in-India, call it what it is. A farce.

Official sources said the direct import of a "limited number" of Ka-226Ts - possibly around 50 - was almost certain to meet the IAF's and AAC's immediate requirements once the deal was inked under an Inter Governmental Agreement. HAL anticipates an annual production rate of 30 to 40 Ka-226Ts, with indigenous content rising to 30% three to four years after manufacture begins.

- Link

First 50 off-the-shelf. Next 100 SKD/CKD assembly. Last 50 featuring a very limited degree of locally produced components.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 20 Sep 2015 05:01

Four-five Indian companies vying to build Kamov-226 chopper

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 20 Sep 2015 06:11

The drama never ends... just fed up with this bs really. It's 2015, LUH is ready but the forces still want phoren maal as usual. Just fly something made in India for once, work on it, improve it. Russian maal isn't superior in quality either so what is this stupidity about

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Sep 2015 06:40

Alka_P wrote:The drama never ends... just fed up with this bs really. It's 2015, LUH is ready but the forces still want phoren maal as usual. Just fly something made in India for once, work on it, improve it. Russian maal isn't superior in quality either so what is this stupidity about

Alka_P - I think that emotional support for India should not allow misinformation to be posted as truth. The LUH is getting ready. It has not had its first flight yet and it will be at least 4 years if there are no major hurdles discovered as occurred with IJT. Meanwhile our old Cheetahs are getting long in tooth and we cannot keep on supplying our troops in remote areas unless we get helos soon. Our favourite UPA government helped botch the earlier decision to induct LUH and now we are stuck in a corner. Those Ka 226s are needed and if that can help private players to join the defence manufacturing game it will be good for the country in the long run helping to set up parallel manufacturing lines and skilled personnel.

Please let us not try and cover up misinformation in the form of well meaning, well intended "my heart is in the right place" posts.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 20 Sep 2015 07:13

Alka_P wrote:The drama never ends... just fed up with this bs really. It's 2015, LUH is ready but the forces still want phoren maal as usual. Just fly something made in India for once, work on it, improve it. Russian maal isn't superior in quality either so what is this stupidity about

why Kamov being invited for our light helicopter requirement ??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Sep 2015 09:23

Shaun wrote:
Alka_P wrote:The drama never ends... just fed up with this bs really. It's 2015, LUH is ready but the forces still want phoren maal as usual. Just fly something made in India for once, work on it, improve it. Russian maal isn't superior in quality either so what is this stupidity about
why Kamov being invited for our light helicopter requirement ??

It is not an invitation

A few years ago there was competitive bidding for 197 light helicopters. We need 380 and HAL will not be able to meet those numbers of light helos. Three companies responded -Bell Textro 407, Eurocopter Fennec and Ka-226

Bell pulled out leaving the other two.

Fennec won had issues:

The first finalist is Eurocopter. HAL and Eurocopter predecessor Aerospatiale have a long-standing relationship, and past Indian Army helicopters have generally been modified Aerospatiale designs. The Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec won the Army’s v1.0 competition, and price negotiations were underway when a questionable technicality led India to cancel the deal.

The AS550 reportedly needed several modifications for India’s requirements, including ‘bulge doors’ so soldiers on stretchers wouldn’t have to fold their legs at 70 degrees in order to fit inside. A Technical Oversight Committee cleared the modified machine, despite a tender clause ruling out modifications. Reports from India also speak of failure in some high-altitude trials, which is surprising for a helicopter type that has landed atop Mount Everest. Unfortunately, the reports aren’t specific concerning which exact tasks were the problem.

Fennec was later eliminated on grounds of corruption or kickback or something leaving Ka 226

Here is some info about Ka-226 from the same link posted above:

Russia’s Kamov had responded to the AAC’s v1.0 Request For Proposal back in late 2003, alongside Bell and Eurocopter. Its Ka-226 Sergei uses the same counter-rotating design as Kamov’s other helicopters, which serve in roles with the Indian Navy. The Ka-226 also has a somewhat unusual feature – it can become a skycrane by detaching its body pod. Other mission pods can also be fitted for specialty roles, which gives the helicopter considerable versatility.

In the 1st competition, the Ka-226 was eliminated early during the paper evaluation, because it had been unable to obtain acceptable flight certification in time. Kamov unsuccesfully asked to be re-inserted in 2005, and the formal re-tender led Kamov to bid again, but the up-engined Ka-226T soon ran into certification issues of its own. Ka-226Ts replace Rolls Royce 250C engines with French Turbomeca Arrius 2G2s. That delivers better performance at altitude, but certification generally takes at least 2 years, and the new design had rolled out just 9 months before the 2010 trials.

The Ka-226 is reported to be significantly cheaper than its rivals. On the flip side, it has few customers at this point, even as problems with other Russian equipment and policies are creating pressure to diversify India’s supplier base away from Russia. Nevertheless, it was a finalist alongside the A550 Fennec.

Anyhow Ka 226 now has a better engine and has one advantage that people keep quoting - there is no tail rotor and that makes it easier to land in small helipads in mountains, apart from the fact that the actual cabin it carries can be changed for different roles

This is the Ka-226 without any cabin - which can be fitted separately depending on role

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 20 Sep 2015 10:13

my bad , shiv saab , the question should be why KA-226 got selected for light helos ?? Anyway sir , your posts should enlighten those posters who are questioning the very purpose of this exercise i.e., to add capacity and Make in India effort

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Sep 2015 11:37

The more I read into it, this is going to be like PC-9 vs HTT-40, especially if "Make in India" assembly is going to be done by other private entities. They have all the incentive to get more follow-on orders for Ka-226; why stop at 200 units? By the time HAL's LUH is ready for production in a few years, these guys making Ka-226 would do everything in their power to eat into the other "Made in India" 187 HAL LUH. GoI can't object too much since after all it is "Make in India". Given past history and attitudes, the armed forces would most likely agree saying they want to "standardized" on one platform and of course they distrust HAL. The future doesn't look good for HAL's LUH.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 20 Sep 2015 12:02

^^^^ That's an absurd logic...competition and scale is what we require in defense production.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Sep 2015 12:04

srai wrote:By the time HAL's LUH is ready for production in a few years, these guys making Ka-226 would do everything in their power to eat into the other "Made in India" 187 HAL LUH. GoI can't object too much since after all it is "Make in India".

srai - the private sector needs to get there first. No point thinking about what they might do after they get there. If we are going to allow the private sector into manufacturing defence equipment it would be wrong to think up every excuse possible to say how our dear PSUs will be affected. Remember that the government retains the power to simply nationalize something on some excuse or other. That was done for both HAL (which was Walchand Hirachand) and Air India (Tata Airlines?) if you recall.