Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Sep 2015 19:35

First you need to be a company with a big enough size to be able to have the investment and hardware in place, so that you'll be able to do the high end stuff.
Obviously we are not talking about writing some software to run a cash register.

The best achievement that the Pakis have is in writing silly viruses, and things like Axact - whose CEO was last heard vehemently defending his scamming as a valid business practice, and beseeching fellow pakis to spread the word far and wide

nits · Post by **nits** » 10 Sep 2015 09:59

Now this a News... True or not but suprising Russia considering selling fighter planes to Paki

Russia and Pak discussing Sell of SU-35 - From IDRW - http://idrw.org/russia-pakistan-holding ... -minister/

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 10 Sep 2015 12:22

nits wrote:Now this a News... True or not but suprising Russia considering selling fighter planes to Paki

Russia and Pak discussing Sell of SU-35 - From IDRW - http://idrw.org/russia-pakistan-holding ... -minister/

The Russians would be stupid to sell this plane to the Pakis. They would pissed off one of their best customer. How would this effect the PAK FA program ?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 10 Sep 2015 13:00

That's a physiological war by... how many new a/c have pakis purchased with "hard cash" in the last 3-4 decades?? I don't think Ruskis have the capacity ( because of their own AF upgradation work) or money to give cheap loans for purchasing . With Ruskis needing monies and pakis remaining bakis , i don't know how such deal is possible . Between any news of the money involved in purchasing the 4 Mi-35 helicopters ???

"Khan said Russia's current economic downturn has dictated the reduction in number for the time being.

"Initial requirement for Mi-35 was for 20 helicopters, which was supported with a line of credit provided by the Russians worth $2 billion," he said. "However, after the sanctions imposed on Russia by the EU and the USA, this line of credit was not possible."

Consequently, Pakistan's "Ministry of Defense was recently allocated funds to purchase four or five with eventual purchase of 20," Khan said."

Source :http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /32107279/

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 10 Sep 2015 13:52

F-7PG of fizzleya crashes
The F7-PG fighter jet was on a routine training mission when its engine caught fire and crashed on a fray near Mastung

Air force officials, Frontier Corps and Levies rushed to spot soon after the crash and cordoned the area, the wreckage of the plane had been confiscated.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 10 Sep 2015 13:53

Austin wrote:The Chinese Gave them a proven design of Nuclear Bum not the Bum itself , The Uranium etc came from Kahuta which itself was some stolen design by Khan Sahab. This happened in early 80's and in a book written by US author I dont remember the name now but read it in 90's the CIA was well aware of the Chinese-Pakistan nexus but due to Afghanistan they choose to look over , once Soviet withdrew the CIA confronted Benezar Bhutto with evidence and she pleaded her innocence , the POTUS decided not to ceritfy that Pakis can no long build a nuclear bum and so came the Pressler Ammednment and Sanctions, The cold testing of Pakistan Bum already happend in mid-80's

Nuclear Deception

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2015 14:04

i think idrw confused the su35 with the mi35 hind. these might not be new build but rus & usa have plenty of boneyard kit .

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 10 Sep 2015 14:13

Pindigenous drone now known to be chindigenous

Pakistan’s first indigenous armed drone is likely to have been supported, designed or supplied by China, according to defence analysts.

Neil Gibson, a weapons analyst with a weekly defence-based magazine, IHS Jane’s, said “close analysis of imagery released by Pakistan suggests at least a heavy debt to Chinese systems”. The Burraq, he added, “strongly resembles” China’s CH-3 UAV.

Pieter Wezeman, a senior researcher at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (Sipri), also believes China must have helped Pakistan if it did indeed produce a UAV that goes beyond basic reconnaissance.

“Developing a drone with armed capability is much more difficult than just a reconnaissance one because the reconnaissance one can be built with very basic technology, but integrating weapons is a different level,” he said. “Either it is a Chinese UAV or based on Chinese technology.”

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 10 Sep 2015 14:16

The report of "confiscated plane parts" tells you how Quetta has become tellibunniland.

The pic of Khalid on the last page seems to be with~~a LA Fayette class frigate, is the sub in France? Is the pic new or old?~~
Edit: I mistook / as 7. Seems to be another ship.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 10 Sep 2015 22:09

A hagiography of the Bandar. https://medium.com/war-is-boring/this-i ... 5bb9297261

Although, one has to admire how hard the PAF is backing this

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 10 Sep 2015 22:45

maxratul wrote:A hagiography of the Bandar. https://medium.com/war-is-boring/this-i ... 5bb9297261

Although, one has to admire how hard the PAF is backing this

The origins of the JF-17 lie in the Super-7 program, which was an upgrade of the J-7 design. The FC-1, now called JF-17, evolved from a single engine MiG-29 concept tentatively referred to as MiG-33. The MiG-33 of course, never happened.

Edit: added pic

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 10 Sep 2015 23:18

Aditya ji, I wonder why we also didnt buy an off the shelf design (plus talent) once the Soviet Union went tits up. Anyways, by all reports we have a much better product in hand now, so in the long run its all good i suppose.

to be honest, i actually clicked that article thinking that it was about the Bison since it talked about "Ultimate Mig 21." It turned out to be as close to paid propaganda as possible. Whether the end product is good or bad, the TSP is doing some real good marketing for this thing - I have seen some videos and brochures with better than average production quality.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Sep 2015 09:41

Conformal fuel tanks on one of these 3

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 14 Sep 2015 11:41

yes the bottom one .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Sep 2015 12:06

the final JF17 design also bears a startling resemblance to a yugoslav design. perhaps both share the same father in the mig-33.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Sep 2015 13:19

Something a Prof at IIT Bombay had suggested in Kate 70s or early 80s.

Actually in place of the LCA.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 14 Sep 2015 14:27

Singha wrote:the final JF17 design also bears a startling resemblance to a yugoslav design. perhaps both share the same father in the mig-33.

are you talking about the Novi Avion? IIRC that was a largely french assisted design.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 14 Sep 2015 23:25

maxratul wrote:
Singha wrote:the final JF17 design also bears a startling resemblance to a yugoslav design. perhaps both share the same father in the mig-33.
are you talking about the Novi Avion? IIRC that was a largely french assisted design.

He means the IAR-95. Which was Romanian and not Yugoslav.

For academic interests I would like to compare JF-17 with F/A-50, F-20 and FCK-1.

arun · Post by **arun** » 16 Sep 2015 13:16

Green on Green violence in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to determine who in the “Land of the Pure” is the Purest of them all, sees the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military target the local population of Wana for the acts of the Military’s own spawn and onetime “Strategic Assets”, the un-uniformed Jihadi’s of the Taliban, who have now turned to freedom fighter Mujahideen seeking to overthrow Punjabi domination.

India must use all resources at her disposal to hold the Punjabi dominated Military to account for indulging in acts of collective punishment, as this case of demolitions are. Collective Punishment is prohibited by the Geneva Convention and is a war crime. The Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has an established past history of using Collective Punishment targeting Pathan’s residing in FATA under the dubious legality of the Frontier Crime Regulations:

Shops razed after military convoy bombed in Wana

arun · Post by **arun** » 18 Sep 2015 15:27

X Posted from the “Siachen News & Discussion” thread.

The Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi Dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s futile attempt to challenge and occupy Indian territory on the Siachen Glacier is resulting in their running a high casualty rate. The Islamic Republics attempt has in the period between 2003-10 resulted in 213 deaths and does not count the 140 Uniformed Jihadi’s who died in a fatal avalanche that hit a uniformed Jihadi camp in April 2012.

[quote]Despite a ceasefire that has seen no targeted firing since a 2003 agreement, the Pakistan Army has been losing an average of 30 soldiers a year on Siachen. The deaths are associated with the perils of deployment at high altitude - medical complications, avalanches, bad weather and more. With a total of 213 deaths recorded at Siachen between 2003-10, the glacier has been taking its toll. The average of 30 deaths a year does not include the 140 soldiers that Pakistan lost in a fatal avalanche that hit a military camp in April 2012.

On the other hand, Indian casualties on glacier have progressively decreased over the years and are currently in single digits. Official data released in parliament shows that Indian soldiers have died due to climatic conditions at an average of 10 a year. In recent years this number has almost come down to single digits, with 5 sold ..

Read more at:

Bleeding in Siachen: Pakistan losing 30 soldiers a year on highest battlefield

arun · Post by **arun** » 18 Sep 2015 15:35

Freedom fighting Pathan Un-uniformed Jihadi's attack Punjabi dominated Uniformed Jihadi base at PAF Badaber in Peshawar.

Taliban attack on Pakistan base kills 20; 16 die in mosque

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 18 Sep 2015 18:33

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to IHS Jane's .

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory". The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.

In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform. At the time, the official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told IHS Jane's in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.

The discussions for the Su-35 are clearly indicative the PAF's continued search for a twin-engine long-range multirole fighter and follow the recent signing of a contract for four Mi-35s, with Pakistani officials saying further Mi-35 purchases will follow.

Western diplomats in Islamabad who closely follow Pakistan's hardware needs and purchases told IHS Jane's that Pakistan may have looked to Russia due to uncertainty over the reliability of buying large ticket items from the United States: the traditional favoured supplier for the country's armed forces.

However, the officials - and IHS analysts - believe that China is more likely to fill the gap in high-tech defence requirements created by US equivocation. "Looking at the Su-35 allows the PAF to take a closer look at Russian equipment, which they haven't done in the past, but my feeling is the next big fighter aircraft deal will take place with China," a Western official in Islamabad told IHS Jane's.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 18 Sep 2015 18:44

Pakistan is really playing smart here

-》Looks like more of handtwisting act to west that give pakis free F-16 's or they have options

-》 Our options Join JSF program ?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 18 Sep 2015 19:00

On the first part I feel it isn't as much s wanting free F-16's but more like wanting to bargain harder to get more material (and more sophisticated technology) from China. One can also not rule out that they really want some capable equipment and Chinese stuff they get isn't up to the hype they themselves created let alone anything that will give any serious headaches to the IAF. Going forward they would need access to modern electronic warfare systems, AESA radars and other higher end technology. The west isn't going to hand those over, and so far the Chinese are only giving them their second tier stuff. The only option is then to either reach out to Russia to diversify the supplier base at best and be in a better position to ask for more capability from their masters at worst.

On the second point the only long term answer is to double down on the LCA and AMCA.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Sep 2015 19:25

I will say something on a hunch. I am sure the Pakis "are talking" to the Russians about the Su-35. Everyone is allowed to talk about buying an aircraft. But there will not be any sale. I suggest re-check of this news after 6 months, 1 year and 18 months and of course I will need to be told that I was wrong in my prediction.

When was the Paris air show? June 2015? 3 months on - no Asian customer for the Paki JF 17 has been named. I say that was a lie. Please catch me and call me out if the customer is named and actually buys the JF-17.

There is also news that Pakistan is in the market for Mi-35s. This makes me wonder on so many counts. The US has supplied Viper Helos to Pakistan - which the Pakis have used to good effect as far as I can tell. More amusingly China "gifted" 3 Z-10s to Pakistan. Where are Pakistanis going to find money for Mi 35s and Su 35s? The Russians are not going to be giving easy credit terms to Pakistan considering their own economy.

Someone call me out and tell me I was wrong when it happens. That way I can reassess my own "analysis algorithms". I have seen too many announcements from Pakistan that tun out to be false.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Sep 2015 19:36

Shiv exactly. The Pakis are bombastic blowhards who routinely claim all sorts of sh!te this time around triggering a war between the russia rakshak and the US rakshaks on the bharat rakshak forum.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 20 Sep 2015 18:40

Not sure if posted before. From the Pics posted in paki forum looks like the Eurocopter was a total loss

Army helicopter crash lands during rescue

PESHAWAR: One of the three Pakistan Army transport helicopters that rescued victims of the attack on the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Badaber Camp crash landed here on Friday.

Though there were rumours that the helicopter was hit by the terrorists during the takeoff from the airbase, security officials and Director General Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Major General Asim Salim Bajwa denied these reports.

They said it was a transport helicopter that developed a technical fault and crash landed before the take-off. According to security officials, the pilot, co-pilot and other staff in the helicopter remained unhurt. The helicopter, however, was damaged.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 20 Sep 2015 19:41

A Sharma wrote:.

They said it was a transport helicopter that developed a technical fault and crash landed before the take-off. According to security officials, the pilot, co-pilot and other staff in the helicopter remained unhurt. The helicopter, however, was damaged.

How in the world can a heli crashland BEFORE taking off??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Sep 2015 13:58

From AFM

BELL HELICOPTER has received its first export order for the AH-1Z Viper, from Pakistan. US Naval Air Systems Command awarded a $581,113,421 contract on August 25 covering AH-1Zs for both the Pakistan Army Aviation
Corps and US Marine Corps.

It was not specified how many of the AH-1Zs are for Pakistan, but only 10% of the contract sum relates to Pakistan. The US had approved sale of 15 AH-1Zs to Pakistan earlier this year but this initial order may be for only two.

58 million - 2 helos and the Pakis are going to buy Mi 35 and Su 35. Anyone believe that?

Sorry OT but I am emigrating and would like to conclude a quick sale of a red sandstone fort I own in Delhi. Please leave a message here if anyone wants it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Sep 2015 14:12

^^ Shiv , They have purchased or atleast mentioned to have signed a deal for 4 x Mi-35M but the rest of stuff like Su-35 etc are just hot air.

Not many years age PAF chief said they would buy couple of squadrons of J-10 from China soonas substitute for F-16 and recently about purchasing J-20/31 but nether has seen the light of the day

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Sep 2015 19:19

knowing the paki tendency to sell stuff, china will be wary of revealing their latest avionics, radar and ECM on the J-10C to the pakis, one will be rerouted from the airport CKD box itself to langley, virginia.

they are pretty secular in this business...make $ from all sides.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Sep 2015 21:58

PAF Chief was on record in interview to AFM that they would buy 2-3 Squadrons of J-10 instead of pursuing F-16 but that seem to have gone no where so far.

Now with their economic situation they need to be have pinned all their hopes on JF-17 Block 1/2/3 model for mass produce fighter and Upgrading their existing F-16 with Sniper pod/EW etc and some upgrade via Turkey for top end spectrum.

I am not sure what happens to their existing fleet of Mirages and older F series types ( Mig-19 etc ) perhaps they might be upgraded.

In any case as JTull has mentioned with Nuclear Weapons and Delivery system that covers entire India thats their Insurance for Survival

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 22 Sep 2015 22:15

With China in the equation, I'll not discount Su-35 talks completely.

When RD-33 was first mentioned then BRFites discounted it completely but it did happen.

Same thing repeated when Mi-17 talks were in progress but we were not concerned as it is a transport heli.

Now we know that China is negotiating for Su-35. I'll not doubt it's determination if it decides that it needs to arm Pakistanis with the same by passing through just like the RD-33!

That said, J-11 sale is more likely though!

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Sep 2015 23:19

I find the Mi-35 sale at least plausible, as Pakistan has historically been an operator of Mi-8s and Mi-17s since the 1960s. The Mi-35 uses the same engines. Russian kit is uncomplicated and hardy, which suits a lot of operators not looking for a 'sensor-shooter network' and all that jazzy stuff.

Lets not forget they do operate IL-78Ms and RD-33 (JF-17) as well, which probably is not independent of Russian support.

If at all Pakistan was negotiating a fighter purchase with Russia, it should be the cheaper, RD-33 equipped MiG-29. Which does not make sense in any case as they have F-16s and JF-17s available.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 23 Sep 2015 06:20

if you google hard enough you will find out that Pakistan Operates a couple of Mi-35 (ex Afghan Air Force from the Soviet Times).
They familiarity with the craft and are probably looking to get lower and dirtier with these crafts in the FATA areas.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Sep 2015 06:32

Buying less than one squadron of fighters makes sense only for small air forces like Burundi or Congo. Minor servicing will be done by technicians from the exporting country and major overhaul will require the aircraft to be taken elsewhere. If larger numbers are operated then local overhaul service centers will need to be established. Some countries - eg Gulf nations may be happy to pay for foreign workers to build and those centers. But when you have a huge air force and want to be as independent as possible - ensuring that under the worst possible circumstances you still have a large number of aircraft that are airworthy or serviceable - you need to invest a lot more in the infrastructure and personnel. That does not come cheap. I am certain that India's prolonged negotiations for DPSA and AJT and now Rafale are held up on issues like these. But I digress. I see no possibility of Pakistan investing in any significant number of Su-35s in the short to medium term. Someone please call me out after it actually happens and the first Su-35 lands in Pakistan. Till then it is all hot air.

member_28613 · Post by **member_28613** » 23 Sep 2015 23:30

* No J-10Bs, not anymore.
* J-31 = Long shot to replace all F-16s eventually.
* Su-35s = To replace F-7PGs & Maritime strike variant Mirage-Vs.
* JF-17 Block-1/2/3 = to replace A-5 Fantan (all replaced), F-7P (2nd Sq replaced), Mirage-III and Mirage-V.
* Mi-35s = For Special Forces tier-1 SOTF for night ops.
* AH-1Z Viper = 15 to spearhead the rotary strike element.
* Z-10X Thunderbolt = 3 prototypes in Pakistan for testing, intended to eventually replace all AH-1F/S Cobras, almost 55-60 of them.

Austin wrote:PAF Chief was on record in interview to AFM that they would buy 2-3 Squadrons of J-10 instead of pursuing F-16 but that seem to have gone no where so far.

Now with their economic situation they need to be have pinned all their hopes on JF-17 Block 1/2/3 model for mass produce fighter and Upgrading their existing F-16 with Sniper pod/EW etc and some upgrade via Turkey for top end spectrum.

I am not sure what happens to their existing fleet of Mirages and older F series types ( Mig-19 etc ) perhaps they might be upgraded.

In any case as JTull has mentioned with Nuclear Weapons and Delivery system that covers entire India thats their Insurance for Survival

member_28613 · Post by **member_28613** » 23 Sep 2015 23:35

Mi-35s will go to Special Forces after the US refused to sell C/A-130 Spooky gunship for fire support. It can be used as a combat search and rescue, battle taxi (carries 8 soldiers) and supplies. Can take a good beating, comes with good firepower and has very high speed and mobility. These helis are not meant for replacing Cobras, thats going to be a 2 tier model with Ah-1Z and Z-10s replacing them.

Aditya G wrote:I find the Mi-35 sale at least plausible, as Pakistan has historically been an operator of Mi-8s and Mi-17s since the 1960s. The Mi-35 uses the same engines. Russian kit is uncomplicated and hardy, which suits a lot of operators not looking for a 'sensor-shooter network' and all that jazzy stuff.

Lets not forget they do operate IL-78Ms and RD-33 (JF-17) as well, which probably is not independent of Russian support.

If at all Pakistan was negotiating a fighter purchase with Russia, it should be the cheaper, RD-33 equipped MiG-29. Which does not make sense in any case as they have F-16s and JF-17s available.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Sep 2015 23:49

>>* Su-35s = To replace F-7PGs & Maritime strike variant Mirage-Vs.

And chances of that sale happening? Nil.

PS: Per forum rules, you need a human name.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 23 Sep 2015 23:54

LoL Su-35 will not happen. Its a bluff. J-11 has a chance.