Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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csaurabh
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by csaurabh »

I am currently reading a book on Indian Mural Painting by an 'Indian' author . Now this book is pretty good as such, it has a good collection and adequate descriptions.

And yet every page has signs of a colonized mind at work. I reproduce a paragraph below
One religious and one secular figure, enveloped in clouds and surrounded by attendants belong to the 19th century. An artist conversant with Indian traditions may have incorporated a dark Sadhu-like guard with a bow. The typical Ladakhi physiognomy , cloud formations and the flying figure create a Tibetian ambience.
This sounds like a reasonable description, but actually doesn't make much sense. I am sure the person who originally painted it would have a completely different explanation.

Let's list down the problems

-garbage words 'religious' and 'secular'
-ambiguity in English- does the painting belong to 19th century or the attendants?
-'Tibetian' , 'Ladakh' ,'Indian' being exclusive categories..

And the worst part is that we have no alternative to this shoddy 'scholarship' that tries to hide behind 'peer reviews' and 'citations'..
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

csaurabh wrote:I am currently reading a book on Indian Mural Painting by an 'Indian' author . Now this book is pretty good as such, it has a good collection and adequate descriptions.

And yet every page has signs of a colonized mind at work. I reproduce a paragraph below
One religious and one secular figure, enveloped in clouds and surrounded by attendants belong to the 19th century. An artist conversant with Indian traditions may have incorporated a dark Sadhu-like guard with a bow. The typical Ladakhi physiognomy , cloud formations and the flying figure create a Tibetian ambience.
This sounds like a reasonable description, but actually doesn't make much sense. I am sure the person who originally painted it would have a completely different explanation.

Let's list down the problems

-garbage words 'religious' and 'secular'
-ambiguity in English- does the painting belong to 19th century or the attendants?
-'Tibetian' , 'Ladakh' ,'Indian' being exclusive categories..

And the worst part is that we have no alternative to this shoddy 'scholarship' that tries to hide behind 'peer reviews' and 'citations'..
My response here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1859901
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by abhischekcc »

There is no alliance, Jews have the Xians by their b@lls, and Xians have the Jews by their throat.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by svenkat »

http://swarajyamag.com/culture/am-i-a-hindu/
What’s common between me and my fellow Hindus? Not religion, not even cuisine. Not habits (not even in worship). Not even common Gods. Isn’t that true? In my grandfather’s generation, I have never seen any other form of worship than the worship of our communal deity (nor have I heard them speak of it). It’s only in my generation that for the people of my village it has occurred that someone living in Thirupathi or Sabarimalai could be a God. Even the worship of Murugan at Thiruchendur was not very prominent till a generation ago.

Till now, my village had worshipped only deities such as Karuppaswamy, Sudalaimadan, Kanniamman. My people (including me) knew of the Ramayanam as merely an epic (that too through Kambar, or pattimandrams).  There is no Siva temple or a Rama temple in the vicinity of our village or an easily accessible distance (there was none in the past too). As far as I know, there is none in my ancestors who have read the Gita or the Vedas or have even thought of doing so.

I believe you would have understood my question now. With all these, why am I still a Hindu? Or is the Hindu religion something that was thrust on me like the other religions?

From where did this religion come towards me? Is the distance the only differentiating factor between Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism? If it came in the recent past, did my ancestors have no religion before that? Did they have no form of worship? At the beginning of human history, there would have been no religion. I believe that all religions arose after that.

My question is – did my village not have any form of worship as its own? Or will this become a reality soon? The most significant change I notice in my generation is the food that is presented in temples. The educated (so-called) classes are keen to show themselves as abhorring the custom of eating meat in temples. For them, only the larger temples appear to be beautiful, potent and possessing divinity. My argument that we present to our deity what our deity likes fails to impress there. (I support vegetarianism solely on the basis of health. But this is different. They eat meat at home. But at the temple, they will do so with a guilty heart or will refuse.)

Similarly, I do not remember my grandfather or my grandmother performing offerings for the dead. What I learnt from that is that after the tenth day of rites, that’s it. Now, this habit is also on the rise.

My question is not whether these are for good or for bad. My question is whether the Gita and Vedas are to me what the Bible and Koran is? Or whether there is a connection between me and them.

Am not sure if I have put my question properly. But I have hopes that you would have understood me.

Regards,
Kaliraj.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Agnimitra »

X-post from Bharateeyam thread:

A good article by Aravindan Neelakandan on the Indic cultural approach to mental, intellectual and spiritual transition, syncretism and evolution:

Gods, God, Unity, Unit
That the samanvaya has been at work at in shaping the psyche of Hindu nation can be seen in the Gupta emperors adhering to the Vedic traditions patronizing the two of the greatest achievements of so-called heterodox Buddhism—the Ajanta caves and the university of Nalanda reached their pinnacle under the non-Buddhist Gupta kings.

The white Hun Mihiragula, despite his embracing the worship of Vedic deity Rudra, was defeated by a confederacy of Hindus under Narasimha Gupta (Baladitya) and Yasodharma about 528 CE. This event is highly glorified in ancient Indian history and has crucial import: though India had assimilated invading clans into her social fabric, Mihiragula was marked as an alien and driven out of India.

This is mainly because of his continued massacre of Buddhist monks and destruction of their monasteries. India’s core historical movement identifies anything that threatens the samanvaya and unity as alien and fights to remove invaders from its organism or detoxify the invader of the expansionist tendencies of monocultures, and assimilate them.
On a related note:
Religious Trauma Syndrome: How some organized religion leads to mental health problems
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

A religion, faith or book cannot be abuse but the people interpreting can make anything abusive.
Sickoolarism is built up on bullshit like this
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Agnimitra »

Yes. The article questions that notion.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Agnimitra wrote:Yes. The article questions that notion.
True. A bold article

One of the things that used to amaze me was the way in which religions like Christianity and Islam maintained a grip on societies that liked to call themselves "modern" by ensuring that religion is not criticized in any way.

These religions are simply a form of social control - as the article says:
“lean not unto your own understanding” or “trust and obey.”
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

svenkat wrote:http://swarajyamag.com/culture/am-i-a-hindu/
What’s common between me and my fellow Hindus? Not religion, not even cuisine. Not habits (not even in worship). Not even common Gods. Isn’t that true? In my grandfather’s generation, I have never seen any other form of worship than the worship of our communal deity (nor have I heard them speak of it). It’s only in my generation that for the people of my village it has occurred that someone living in Thirupathi or Sabarimalai could be a God. Even the worship of Murugan at Thiruchendur was not very prominent till a generation ago.

Till now, my village had worshipped only deities such as Karuppaswamy, Sudalaimadan, Kanniamman. My people (including me) knew of the Ramayanam as merely an epic (that too through Kambar, or pattimandrams).  There is no Siva temple or a Rama temple in the vicinity of our village or an easily accessible distance (there was none in the past too). As far as I know, there is none in my ancestors who have read the Gita or the Vedas or have even thought of doing so.

I believe you would have understood my question now. With all these, why am I still a Hindu? Or is the Hindu religion something that was thrust on me like the other religions?

From where did this religion come towards me? Is the distance the only differentiating factor between Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism? If it came in the recent past, did my ancestors have no religion before that? Did they have no form of worship? At the beginning of human history, there would have been no religion. I believe that all religions arose after that.

My question is – did my village not have any form of worship as its own? Or will this become a reality soon? The most significant change I notice in my generation is the food that is presented in temples. The educated (so-called) classes are keen to show themselves as abhorring the custom of eating meat in temples. For them, only the larger temples appear to be beautiful, potent and possessing divinity. My argument that we present to our deity what our deity likes fails to impress there. (I support vegetarianism solely on the basis of health. But this is different. They eat meat at home. But at the temple, they will do so with a guilty heart or will refuse.)

Similarly, I do not remember my grandfather or my grandmother performing offerings for the dead. What I learnt from that is that after the tenth day of rites, that’s it. Now, this habit is also on the rise.

My question is not whether these are for good or for bad. My question is whether the Gita and Vedas are to me what the Bible and Koran is? Or whether there is a connection between me and them.

Am not sure if I have put my question properly. But I have hopes that you would have understood me.

Regards,
Kaliraj.
There is also a pretty good answer there to the above letter, hope you all have read that.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Just so we are clear on the true purpose of the "religion" as we see from the practices of proselytizing religions point of view.

Legion is a military unit.
Re-Legion (or Religion) is returning folks to the military unit.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

Thoughts on the meat ban in Mumbai for a few days? Looks like the India of today has no place for the concept of Jiva Daya and Sarvo Daya. All are talking only about rights of the self, without any reference to obligations to anyone. Are humans not social beings? Does social harmony not vest in being able to respect the dominant values of a social group in a given local region.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:Thoughts on the meat ban in Mumbai for a few days? Looks like the India of today has no place for the concept of Jiva Daya and Sarvo Daya. All are talking only about rights of the self, without any reference to obligations to anyone. Are humans not social beings? Does social harmony not vest in being able to respect the dominant values of a social group in a given local region.
Shaurya - let me make a rhetorical argument but I'm serious and I am not taking sides on the meat issue.

If the government can ban Maggi noodles and everyone is happy with that, why does everyone get upset at the ban on sale of meat?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

csaurabh: Who is the author of that book "Indian Mural Painting" you are reading?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by csaurabh »

vayu tuvan wrote:csaurabh: Who is the author of that book "Indian Mural Painting" you are reading?
Mira Seth. Cover describes her as 'art historian'.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

I asked because I know a mural painter of indian origin who painted a large mural in basement of Art Institute of Chicago - a very famous place. He is a very sensible man who is settled in Nippon land.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Arjun »

Meat ban: Muslims can go to Pak, but where will you go, Shiv Sena questions Jains

WTF???

I am a Hindu, but I have to say Jains represent all that is good about Indian culture even better than Hindus. The stupid Shiv Sainiks better keep their traps firmly shut and learn to treat Jains with more respect.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by csaurabh »

Arjun wrote:Meat ban: Muslims can go to Pak, but where will you go, Shiv Sena questions Jains

WTF???

I am a Hindu, but I have to say Jains represent all that is good about Indian culture even better than Hindus. The stupid Shiv Sainiks better keep their traps firmly shut and learn to treat Jains with more respect.
Shiv Sena is right. Jains have an obsession with non-violence and vegetaranism. These are not qualities we need right now.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_29172 »

Arjun wrote:Meat ban: Muslims can go to Pak, but where will you go, Shiv Sena questions Jains

WTF???

I am a Hindu, but I have to say Jains represent all that is good about Indian culture even better than Hindus. The stupid Shiv Sainiks better keep their traps firmly shut and learn to treat Jains with more respect.
I respect them too Arjunji, but non-violence is not something we can afford right now. It's not as reactionary as you make it seem to be. Self defense even by violent means is a skill that everyone needs to learn. All this hoopla about non-violence doesn't cut it anymore.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Arjun »

csaurabh wrote:Shiv Sena is right. Jains have an obsession with non-violence and vegetaranism. These are not qualities we need right now.
:roll:

Perhaps you would much rather the country continue to gain fame for its Delhi 'rape culture' or Bengali 'hartal culture' rather than unmanly vegetarianism :rotfl:

Personally, I would much prefer vegetarian Jains being a symbol of aspirational India than brain-in-the-ass wild-eyed trishul-wielders. They are no shrinking violets either (Amit Shah and Togadia are Jains)...kind of like the way they administer Malabar Hill. :wink:
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_29172 »

Arjun wrote:
csaurabh wrote:Shiv Sena is right. Jains have an obsession with non-violence and vegetaranism. These are not qualities we need right now.
:roll:

Perhaps you would much rather the country continue to gain fame for its Delhi 'rape culture' or Bengali 'hartal culture' rather than unmanly vegetarianism :rotfl:

Personally, I would much prefer vegetarian Jains being a symbol of aspirational India than brain-in-the-ass wild-eyed trishul-wielders. They are no shrinking violets either (Amit Shah and Togadia are Jains)...kind of like the way they administer Malabar Hill. :wink:
Why exactly should anyone in India care what someone sitting halfway across the world thinks based on a bullshit bbc documentary? This non-violence and acceptance and candle light holding is the root cause of our demise in the first place. Non violence, patience and rationality are good and belong to certain communities of all religions, but not everyone can be a peace loving hippie especially when there are home grown terrorists popping up everywhere.

I respect Jain traditions as much as anyone else, but it shouldn't come at the cost of self preservation. Some obscure value or labels given by some idiot sitting halfway around the world isn't a good excuse to give up the right for self protection and the protection of our rights.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Arjun »

Alka_P wrote:This non-violence and acceptance and candle light holding is the root cause of our demise in the first place.
I would wager that there are more Wagah candle-kissers among "martial" Khatris than there are among Jains...Pls see my reference above to how Malabar Hill is run.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_22733 »

What is it with people associating vegetarianism with being a passive person with no control on one's fate or with the lack of ability to defend oneself? I ask that as a 100% pure non-vegetarian who was once a 100% puuure vegetarian.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_29172 »

Arjun wrote:
Alka_P wrote:This non-violence and acceptance and candle light holding is the root cause of our demise in the first place.
I would wager that there are more Wagah candle-kissers among "martial" Khatris than there are among Jains...Pls see my reference above to how Malabar Hill is run.
I suppose I am going really off topic here but this isn't a Jain or Buddhist or Gujrati or Punjabi issue. Non-violence as a concept is a stupid one and it was a disease/philosophical idea embedded in Indic thought perhaps from the time of Emperor Ashok who suddenly became a pacifist. Ofcourse just because he was peaceful doesn't mean his enemies shed their swords either. We all know how that turned out and how the philosophical doctrine of peacefulness dominated the political thought regardless of the ground realities.

I think self defense and defense of the community comes before non violence. At a local level, yes, disputes should be resolved peacefully. But when it comes to fighting invaders/ foreign extremists? violence is necessary.

Don't take it the wrong way but should we start doing dharna at the border too? pakis also call themselves martials and they are typically only inerested in invasion not co existence. No one in their right mind would co-exist especially when you know the other party won't hit back.

It just makes it easier to invade and humiliate.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_29172 »

By the way, your food habits don't necessarily dictate your political thought. Veganism isn't an excuse for being a weakling. I am sure being non-violent and giving the other cheek is braver for you that cutting off the hand that attacks in the first place.

Frankly, these big talks about aman ki ayesha and non-violence are better suited for a politician's speech than as a national/religious doctrine. No wonder all these outsiders have managed to changed our religious and national history, turning what is sacred to us into "phallic symbols of primitive hindoo chimps", turning Sanskrit into some mumbo jumbo invented by europeans who "invaded" India, even though they can't produce sh*t for evidence. Wasn't being invaded by foreigners with much poorer military and economy enough?

How's that been for non-violence?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by rkirankr »

Even Dwaita IMHO separates the seeker & goal only till Moksha. Once Moksha is achieved, the seeker merges with Param. This is different from non-Indic dwaitas.
No the difference exists, but the seeker would have achieved self realization to his/her intrinsic capability and would enjoy complete Bliss
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

shiv wrote: Shaurya - let me make a rhetorical argument but I'm serious and I am not taking sides on the meat issue.

If the government can ban Maggi noodles and everyone is happy with that, why does everyone get upset at the ban on sale of meat?
:) On Maggi. As a student a long time ago, a story conveyed to me. A young girl from Japan on her first visit to the US exclaimed "Dad, they have McDonald's here too". The girl who had not stepped out of Japan, thought McDonalds are an invention of Japan. Similarly, My American children think Maggi is Indian! Strange ways does universalism works with the power to make local what was or is foreign.

A limited ban on meat eating is being viewed as "interference" by the state to dictate what goes on one's plate - as desired. To be clear, the ban on meat sale has been going on for many years, for two days and is applicable on slaughter houses only. Even this was not really enforced, except in some areas of the city - making it a ward level issue.

People are quick to bring in the concept of an individual's right and freedom to eat what one may desire. This aspect of a "rights" based framework that we do practice and the concept of free individual will - so long as someone is not being hurt is part of an alien framework.

I just wanted to emphasize that there is an obligation towards all animals, birds and fishes too. A huge portion of our population that is vegetarian and certainly the majority that is largely vegetarian would have no issues with this symbol otherwise put into practice frequently. Jiva Daya is very deeply ingrained in our systems through age old practices of Pancha Maha Yagna or the 5 daily offering including to animals. How many do we know, who feed animals, birds daily or ritually. If it takes a jain ritual and practice to remind us of these obligations well and good.

A symbolic one day vegetarian day with a complete ban on butchery, fisheries, retail and restaurants would be a a credible symbol to honor such a principle. But fear instead of a principle, it has as usual turned into a ruckus. Even the courts do no better and it is not their fault. The protection and promotion of such a principle is not in their law books.

There is a nice movie called "The ship of Theseus" in which a Jain group has to resort to using animal cruelty provisions of the law to try and stop or at least improve the conditions and treatment of birds to be slaughtered. It to me was an illustration of the lack of recognition of our deeply rooted principles. Watch the movie for other reasons too, it shows both sides of the issues, one that can be caused due to the extreme adherence of religious principles, a probing set of questions on the principles themselves and a robust defense of the same. I did not agree with all of the end result of that segment of the movie but it was an interesting debate to watch between an educated Jain monk and a young "universalist" principles enthusiastic lawyer set in where else the locales of Mumbai. Attaching the clip for you.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by vishvak »

A symbolic one day vegetarian day with a complete ban ..
In India, all such actions are part of traditions and no special day is needed to teach heatheins/pegeins. It is like saying that Hindoo can not tell difference between astronomy and omens, though Hindu calendars of various types have very deep and exhaustive references to Astronomy.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Satya_anveshi »

It is still a great idea (Vegetarian Day) to float from Indian side just like Yoga day. Even if it gets scuttled, we can get to brandish this idea and see where each of the country stands. It will be a pity if some other country takes this initiatives and we react to it. It would still be a net win.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Prem »

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... is/403195/
David Hume, the Buddha, and a search for the Eastern roots of the Western Enlightenmen

I had always been curious about Buddhism, although, as a committed atheist, I was suspicious of anything religious. And turning 50 and becoming bisexual and Buddhist did seem far too predictable—a sort of Berkeley bat mitzvah, a standard rite of passage for aging Jewish academic women in Northern California. But still, I began to read Buddhist philosophy.In 1734, in scotland, a 23-year-old was falling apart.As a teenager, he’d thought he had glimpsed a new way of thinking and living, and ever since, he’d been trying to work it out and convey it to others in a great book. The effort was literally driving him mad. His heart raced and his stomach churned. He couldn’t concentrate. Most of all, he just couldn’t get himself to write his book. His doctors diagnosed vapors, weak spirits, and “the Disease of the Learned.” Today, with different terminology but no more insight, we would say he was suffering from anxiety and depression. The young man’s name was David Hume. Somehow, during the next three years, he managed not only to recover but also, remarkably, to write his book. Even more remarkably, it turned out to be one of the greatest books in the history of philosophy: A Treatise of Human Nature.
In his Treatise, Hume rejected the traditional religious and philosophical accounts of human nature. Instead, he took Newton as a model and announced a new science of the mind, based on observation and experiment. That new science led him to radical new conclusions. He argued that there was no soul, no coherent self, no “I.” “When I enter most intimately into what I call myself,” he wrote in the Treatise, “I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception.”How did Hume come up with these ideas, so profoundly at odds with the Western philosophy and religion of his day?
Until Hume, philosophers had searched for metaphysical foundations supporting our ordinary experience, an omnipotent God or a transcendent reality outside our minds. But Hume undermined all that. When you really look hard at everything we think we know, he argued, the foundations crumble. Descartes at least had said you always know that you yourself exist (“I think, therefore I am”), but Hume rejected even that premise.How did Hume come up with these ideas, so profoundly at odds with the Western philosophy and religion of his day? What turned the neurotic Presbyterian teenager into the great founder of the European Enlightenment?In my shabby room, as I read Buddhist philosophy, I began to notice something that others had noticed before me. Some of the ideas in Buddhist philosophy sounded a lot like what I had read in Hume’s Treatise. But this was crazy. Surely in the 1730s, few people in Europe knew about Buddhist philosophy.
Still, as I read, I kept finding parallels. The Buddha doubted the existence of an omnipotent, benevolent God. In his doctrine of “emptiness,” he suggested that we have no real evidence for the existence of the outside world. He said that our sense of self is an illusion, too. The Buddhist sage Nagasena elaborated on this idea. The self, he said, is like a chariot. A chariot has no transcendent essence; it’s just a collection of wheels and frame and handle. Similarly, the self has no transcendent essence; it’s just a collection of perceptions and emotions.“I never can catch myself at any time ithout a perception.”That sure sounded like Buddhist philosophy to me—except, of course, that Hume couldn’t have known anything about Buddhist philosophy.
Or could he have?
I discovered that at least one person in Europe in the 1730s not only knew about Buddhism but had studied Buddhist philosophy for years. His name was Ippolito Desideri, and he had been a Jesuit missionary in Tibet. In 1728, just before Hume began the Treatise, Desideri finished his book, the most complete and accurate European account of Buddhist philosophy to be written until the 20th century. The catch was that it wasn’t published. No Catholic missionary could publish anything without the approval of the Vatican—and officials there had declared that Desideri’s book could not be printed. The manuscript disappeared into the Church’s archives.I consulted Ernest Mossner’s classic biography of Hume. When Hume wrote the Treatise, he was living in a little French town called La Flèche, 160 miles southwest of Paris. Mossner said Hume went to La Flèche to “rusticate,” probably because it was cheap. But he also mentioned that La Flèche was home to the Jesuit Royal College.
When I searched the library databases at Berkeley, I found hundreds of books and thousands of articles I could read about David Hume, but only two about Ippolito Desideri: one article and a drastically abridged 1932 English translation of his manuscript. The article had appeared in Indica, an obscure journal published in Bombay, in 1986. I had to get it shipped down from the regional storage facility, where millions of books and articles in Berkeley’s collection languish unread.
It mostly recapitulated what I had read before. But the author, an Italian named Luciano Petech, mentioned that he had edited a 1952 collection of missionary documents, I Missionari Italiani nel Tibet e nel Nepal, and that it included some Desideri manuscripts. And, in passing, he provided me with an interesting new detail. “In January 1727,” Petech wrote, “he left India, once more on a French ship, and arrived in Paris.”Desideri had come back to Rome through France—one more intriguing coincidence.The abridged Desideri translation could be read only in the Rare Book Room, so I headed there the next day. It was a beautiful book with red capital letters and romantic tipped-in photographs of majestic Buddhas and tranquil Himalayan valleys. I began to read eagerly.

It’s a remarkable story. In his 20s, Desideri conceived his own grand project—to convert the Indies to Catholicism—and in 1716 he became one of the first Europeans to go to Lhasa, and the first to stay. He was passionate, emotional, and easily exasperated. He was also curious, brave, and unbelievably tenacious. Desideri sailed from Rome to India in 1712. In 1714 he began walking from Delhi across the Himalayas to Lhasa—a trek that lasted 18 months. He slept on the ground, in the snow, and struggled with snow blindness and frostbite. At one point he made his way over a rushing river by clinging precariously to a bridge made of two vine ropes. To get through the Ladakh desert, he joined the caravan of a Tartar princess and argued about theology with her each night in her tent.

When he finally arrived in Lhasa, the king and the lamas welcomed him enthusiastically, and their enthusiasm didn’t wane when he announced that he was a lama himself and intended to convert them all to Catholicism. In that case, the king suggested, it would be a good idea for him to study Buddhism. If he really understood Buddhism and he could still convince the Tibetans that Catholicism was better, then of course they would convert.Desideri accepted the challenge. He spent the next five years in the Buddhist monasteries tucked away in the mountains around Lhasa. The monasteries were among the largest academic institutions in the world at the time. Desideri embarked on their 12-year-long curriculum in theology and philosophy. He composed a series of Christian tracts in Tibetan verse, which he presented to the king. They were beautifully written on the scrolls used by the great Tibetan libraries, with elegant lettering and carved wooden cases. He worked on his Christian tracts and mastered the basic texts of Buddhism. He also translated the work of the great Buddhist philosopher Tsongkhapa into Italian.In his book, Desideri describes Tibetan Buddhism in great and accurate detail, especially in one volume titled “Of the False and Peculiar Religion Observed in Tibet.” He explains emptiness, karma, reincarnation, and meditation, and he talks about the Buddhist denial of the self.He spent the next 11 years writing and rewriting his book and appealing desperately to the Vatican to let him return to Tibet. It had clearly become the only place where he really felt that he was himself. In 1732 the authorities finally ruled—in favor of the Capuchins. His book would not be published and he could never return. He died four months later.Almost at the end of Desideri’s book, I came across a sentence that brought me up short. “I passed through La Flèche,” he wrote, “and on September the fourth arrived in the city of Le Mans.”La Flèche? Where Hume had lived? I let out an astonished cry. The librarians, accustomed to Rare Book Room epiphanies, smiled instead of shushing me.So Desideri not only had been to La Flèche but had also talked with the Jesuits at the Royal College at some length. Reading Petech with Blake,idence suggests that he had this manuscript with him as he made his way from France to Rome in 1727. When he got back to Rome, he revised his text considerably, and six months later he produced a new manuscript. In this version, Desideri writes, “When I returned through France and Italy to Tuscany and Rome, I was strongly urged by many men of letters, by gentlemen and by important personages, to write down in proper order all I had told them at different times.” The reason? The religion of Tibet was “so entirely different from any other,” he wrote, that it “deserves to be known in order to be contested.”So it was possible that Desideri had sent the Royal College at La Flèche a copy of this revised manuscript; the Jesuits regularly circulated such unpublished reports among themselves.
A later letter shows that Hume talked with at least one of those Jesuits at some length. He recalls walking in the cloister of the Royal College, his head “full of the topics of my Treatise,” with a Jesuit “of some parts and learning.” The Jesuit was describing a miracle, and this inspired Hume to come up with one of his cleverest skeptical arguments. Who was this Jesuit “of some parts and learning?” Could he have been one of the fathers who had met Desideri eight years earlier? And whoever he was, what else did he and Hume talk about?The Jesuits in the 1687 embassy, including Dolu, stayed in Siam for a year and spent a great deal of time with the talapoins—the European word for the Siamese Buddhist monks. Three of them even lived in the Buddhist monastery and followed its rules.In 1723, after his extraordinarily eventful and exotic career, Dolu retired to peaceful La Flèche for the rest of his long life. He was 80 when Hume arrived, the last surviving member of the embassies, and a relic of the great age of Jesuit science.
. One of the footnotes in the Spinoza entry was about “oriental philosophers” who, like Spinoza, denied the existence of God and argued for “emptiness.” And it cross-referenced another entry about the monks of Siam, as described by the Jesuit ambassadors. Hume must have been reading about Buddhism, and Dolu’s journey, in the very building where Dolu lived.I’d learned that Hume could indeed have known about Buddhist philosophy. In fact, he had written the Treatise in one of the few places in Europe where that knowledge was available. Dolu himself had had firsthand experience of Siamese Buddhism, and had talked at some length with Desideri, who knew about Tibetan Buddhism. It’s even possible that the Jesuits at the Royal College had a copy of Desideri’s manuscript.
i
Arjun
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Arjun »

So its not just Spinoza, but also David Hume - the two philosophers thought to be most responsible for Western enlightenment - who were 'inspired' by Indian thought, without crediting the source.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by JE Menon »

^^A fantastic read. Thanks for that Jhujar.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Multatuli »

Rajiv Malhotra tweeted this:

Historians Admit To Inventing Ancient Greeks

http://www.theonion.com/article/histori ... eeks-18209
shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Multatuli wrote:Rajiv Malhotra tweeted this:

Historians Admit To Inventing Ancient Greeks

http://www.theonion.com/article/histori ... eeks-18209
That is a satirical site, but they may not know how close to the truth they might be.
Multatuli
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Multatuli »

Oops! The name of the website seemed familiar. I only read the first paragraph. However, I am sure that future research/scholars will prove that most of the civilizational advances credited to the Greeks/Romans have their roots elsewhere.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ramana »

X-post
XXXX wrote:Books and travel broaden mind by introducing ideas, people and technique. After a very brief visit to the modern countries of Italy and Greece whose current territories claim ancestry to the ancient Roman and Greek Civilization, I am become more angry, sad and determined that Indian Civilization has to find its place once again.

BRF talks about Indian Civilization being the only continual one; and there in lies both the advantages and disadvantages. Right from tourism to soft power these countries have used their connection to the ancient history to jump over all their flaws and fails. Instead of finding meaningful reforms and evolving the Indian governments from 1947 have let India rot.

After reading and talking about the innumerable killings and wars that Romans and Greeks plunged their own citizens and rest of the World, I wonder how the West still looks upon these so much. Definitely there has been shinning areas and times, and Italy and Greece have correctly chosen to highlight them. The big advantage they have is their ruins; and now I wonder if Hindus did not cremate but bury their dead, probably more ruins would have been found and cherished.

Rome, Athens, Macedonia, Turks, Christians, Egyptians, Israeils .....wow they fought and killed each other on the basis of religion and ethnicity. The plunder, destruction, rape of women, torture of humans, butchering and razing cultures across Europe and Asia is shocking, yet the West has been able to bury them like the white pumpkin being buried in a mound of rice. Sure the Indian Kings must have involved in some of them, after all there were good and bad Kings. But there is no recorded history, nor oral history of such nature and magnitude of wrath and wreckage in India.

Is it because of the continuous nature of Indian civilization that we continue to see the blemishes of the past and link to the flaws of the current, sometimes rightly sometimes incorrectly. No civilization is flawless, some of its people were treated unfairly by it. But we measure the past using the metrics of the present.

After the trip, I want to become even more Hindutva, and even more Chankian. Is it wrong to hate Congress to the core even more now? And even more than Congress, I think I hate us for electing Congress year and year. For electing corrupt politicians, and tolerating the so-called-Indian system. Maybe the people were too tolerant since 1947 like Cho Ramaswamy said.

After 500-700 years, these 60 odd years would look minuscule and the then Indians would consider the cost of the birth pangs of a modern India.

If India has to grow, its people and politics have to change. More than throwing away a political party, what is needed is a course correction - change of mindset. I do not know if the mindset needs to be changed first to throw away the wrong parties, or should the wrong parties be thrown first to change the mindset. I guess arguments can be made for both sides. However, the creation of a positive narration about India is an instrument to achieve both. And currently the story tellers of the narration have a different idea of the past, present and future. RSS and BJP need to create and nurture, NOW, the story tellers. Any waste of time delays regaining the glory. Maybe in 700 years, a delay of 2 or 3 years is not even a footnote in the pages of history.

The combined destruction and trouble between the Christians, Muslims, Communists and these dynasties (that had slaves) caused on this World is unparalleled.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Why exactly do Indians get upset by the Nazi Swastika? The Swastika is a Hindu symbol borrowed by Germans, while the British killed more Indian and looted more from India than the Germans or even Nazis.

The word "Nazi" is used to refer to members of a particular political ideology - although almost all of Germany was deeply involved in the actions taken by that political party. Anti-Semitism is hardly a German speciality - but in Nazi Germany it was used as way of killing the "other". India got lucky because of Germany and its attack on other European colonial powers. Britain would have had less incentive to pack up and leave if Germans had not been affected by the attitudes of European governments after WW 1. But I digress.

We Indians who speak English and read English are taught to get upset at the Nazi Swastika symbol. We rationalize that we are feeling empathy towards the "just" victors of the great European war of 1939 to 1945. We don;t even get so upset with Pakistanis who killed 3 million Hindus in living memory. Because the Swastika was borrowed from India and because it is associated with Nazi genocides, it is being used as a symbol in Western Anglophone nations to associate Hindus with genocides.

While Hindus display impotent anger at the use of the Swastika in this manner, the same angry Hindus accept that the Swastika is a symbol that should be hated and it was the "good forces" of Europe that won over evil. Really? Nazis were anti-semitic, yes. But the main reason they were hated by other European power is because Nazi upset the European applecart. Nazi Germany helped to make European colonial excesses look good. Developments in photography and radio certainly aided that cause. Colonial excesses were forgotten and the meek exit of effete European power from colonies were made to appear as if there was some "new enlightenment" and freedom was an act of kindness.

When we blindly get upset at the use of the Nazi symbol, we are in a sense protesting against ourselves. It was the British that committed excesses against us, and it was Nazi Germany that reduced British power. For us it is Hobson's choice: if we curse the Nazi symbol - we are support what the British did to us and cursing a Hindu symbol that was misused and is still used against Hindus. If we refuse to accept the Swastika as evil, we get associated with Genocide in a world that chooses not to recall British or Islamic pogroms.

We need to sort out what we are doing by reacting in the "neither here nor there" mode about stuff that is used against us.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

^^The above is where I see some meeting of the minds, between India, China, Japan and other Asian nations. IF India is able to assert her powers and along with China is in a position to challenge western hegemony, can envision the excesses of the colonial era being made into a major point of solidarity for the Asian peoples. Maybe evolve force structures and treaties to keep the erstwhile colonists out. But for that, powers like India and China have to assure other Asian nations that their sovereignty is well respected and their security assured by the major powers of Asia. Anyways, a far off project but the seeds have to be sown.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

shiv wrote: While Hindus display impotent anger at the use of the Swastika in this manner, the same angry Hindus accept that the Swastika is a symbol that should be hated and it was the "good forces" of Europe that won over evil. Really? Nazis were anti-semitic, yes. But the main reason they were hated by other European power is because Nazi upset the European applecart. Nazi Germany helped to make European colonial excesses look good. Developments in photography and radio certainly aided that cause. Colonial excesses were forgotten and the meek exit of effete European power from colonies were made to appear as if there was some "new enlightenment" and freedom was an act of kindness.

...
We need to sort out what we are doing by reacting in the "neither here nor there" mode about stuff that is used against us.
You nailed it!
One point about the Swastika - this symbol must be sequestered back as an Indian one. That by itself is a worthy project, if anyone is interested I can share some ideas. The colors used to represent this symbol are also important - mostly in saffron, red or yellow in India, where the Nazi one is typically black. In the Indian experience - both Nazi Germany and the other European Colonials were monsters intellectually borne of the same barren mother.
The Germans merely 'purified' the colonial perspective of the 'other'....
ShauryaT wrote: IF India is able to assert her powers and along with China is in a position to challenge western hegemony, can envision the excesses of the colonial era being made into a major point of solidarity for the Asian peoples. Maybe evolve force structures and treaties to keep the erstwhile colonists out.
Multiple problems with your assumptions - the Indian and Chinese experiences and desires are vastly different, especially in regards to colonialism and the havoc it wrought on these erstwhile ancient powers... China formed more of her experience from the colonization by the Yuan (Mongolia) and Qing (Manchuria). Their interludes with European powers while perceived as shameful by the Chinese, did not really translate into - 'living with the enemy' so to speak. India on the other hand, learnt to 'live with the enemy' - both Islamic and European - fought them, copulated with them, made mental and physical progeny with them... the Indian experience is vastly different in all sense of colonial experience. Watching Modi at Wembley - I was overwhelmed by how much the Indian civilization has suffered, but what resilience enables it to still come up for air singing, dancing, playing, offering solutions... a lesson even if OT here... to any civilization that wants models to emulate. No civilization on Earth has survived, nay thrived onslaughts, what sheer genius enabled this!
The Chinese diaspora cannot dream to do this...

The allure of an empire, even a centrally strong nation-state afflicts both India and China, but they have different causes, capabilities and experiences and therefore will result is vastly different outcomes. The Indian nation-state will be a reluctant hegemon, whereas the Chinese will actively attempt to be one. The former due to her colonial experience will downplay her power, whereas the Chinese will 'punch above their weight' to appear strong in the face of blatant brittleness. I could go on... but... Ironically, for India, my choice is to protect the underlying civilizational substrate, the allure of the nation-state lasts but briefly in geological timespan of civilizations. This too is a factor in India's reluctant rise as a power. If India gets it right, she will find a balance between a central core surrounded by weaker but aligned states diffused into the Indian civilizational ethos and manage to act as a fulcrum in Eurasia.

My long winded way of saying - there is no major point of solidarity against erstwhile colonialist for the Asian peoples.
If an Indian Universalism was birthed, I dare say it was at BRF by some of us :mrgreen:
India is quite alone, unique and pivotal to Eurasian affairs going forward.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

^^^ Shiv, I used what you wrote on this dailykos.com comment. In retrospect, I should have asked you first. Apologies!

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/11 ... t_58282176
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