Indian Military Helicopters

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2015 20:58

Livefist has a article on the apache deal. it mentions if we get 12 out of 22 as longbows, thats higher than 1-in-3 in us army.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Oct 2015 21:17

Boeing prepares broad offset deal following Indian helicopter contract

Boeing is preparing a wide-ranging offset programme to accompany its sale to India of 22 AH-64E Apache and 15 CH-47F Chinook helicopters, IHS Jane's understands. In discharging its offset obligations Boeing will look to leverage its network of partnerships in India, which will support not only work on the two helicopter types ordered by New Delhi but a range of work on other Boeing defence programmes.

Discussions with Indian companies are continuing, with partnership announcements expected in the coming months.

Under the USD3 billion contract, Boeing is committed to a 30% offset liability, so work worth nearly USD1 billion must be assigned to Indian industry. Offset will be framed by India's Defence Procurement Procedure 2008 - the year in which the request for proposals for the helicopter procurement was drawn up.

An industry source told IHS Jane's that Boeing's offset package on the Chinook/Apache deal will be in line with New Delhi's 'Make in India' programme to promote the indigenous manufacturing base. The company aims to build a competitive supply-chain capability that can further support its programmes, said the source, who added, "Offset is one part of this strategy."

When announcing the contracts on 29 September, Pratyush Kumar, the president of Boeing India, referred to the Indian government's programme to boost industry.

"This acquisition enhances the Indian Air Force's capabilities and offers us an opportunity to further accelerate 'Make in India'," said Kumar. "Large sections of the Chinook fuselage are already manufactured in India and discussions are ongoing with our Indian partners to make Apache parts."

In looking to enter agreements with Indian offset partners, Boeing will seek to expand work already undertaken through teaming deals with state-owned and private-sector companies. Some of these arrangements support offset obligations linked to Boeing's previous sales to India, which include P-8I long-range maritime patrol aircraft and C-17 Globemaster III strategic transport aircraft.

Indian companies already manufacturing Chinook parts include Dynamatic Technologies, which builds aft pylons and cargo ramp assemblies, and Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL), which builds unspecified aerostructures. Companies involved in the P-8I programme include Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Electronics Corporation of India, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), Avantel, TASL, Dynamatic Technologies, and Tata Advanced Materials.

State-owned BEL and HAL are also contracted to provide components and systems for the Boeing F/A-18 fighter aircraft programme, while TAL Manufacturing Solutions - another Tata subsidiary - makes ground support equipment for the C-17.

Boeing's growing presence in the Indian defence market has yet to include foreign direct investment (FDI) but features industrial teamings geared towards discharging offset obligations and integrating local industry into its supply networks. As defence production costs less in India than in the West, this strategy is intended to support wide-ranging Boeing aerospace and defence programmes.

The Indian government's decision in 2014 to lift the cap on FDI from 26% to 49% has prompted Boeing to explore opportunities for investment, although its primary strategy in the market is certain to remain focused on building partnerships than can support both Indian industrial advancement and Boeing's cost effectiveness.

The FDI route has already been pursued by Boeing's competitors in India. For instance, Lockheed Martin operates a joint venture (JV) with TASL to produce aerostructures for C-130 Hercules transport aircraft and Airbus has established a JV with Larsen & Toubro to develop and manufacture radars, avionics, and electronic warfare systems. Both are based on 26:74 equity splits.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 02 Oct 2015 10:29

WHat happened to the C 295 Avro replacement contract awarded to TATA. No news on it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Oct 2015 13:25

Boost for HAL chopper complex plan in Bengaluru, Cabinet agrees to clear power lines

BENGALURU: The ground has been cleared for setting up of a helicopter complex in Tumakuru for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), state-run aircraft manufacturer, where Light Utility Helicopter or LUH will be made. The ground work for the complex is expected to begin in December.

While the plan was first proposed early last year, an issue pertaining to high tension wires running over the land locked for the purpose had been delaying things.

A senior state government official said that the Cabinet has agreed to remove these wires paving way for the helicopter unit. Reacting to this, HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju told TOI exclusively: "Activities that support Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), and Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv will also be taken up. Over all, the Gubbi Complex would concentrate on Helicopter manufacturing systems, assembly hangars, composites and component manufacturing factories and engine component manufacturing units."

He said that the ground breaking ceremony of the complex Helicopter Complex in Bidarehalli Kaval village (Gubbi Taluk) of Tumakuru district is now being planned. "...If everything goes well, it could happen as part of 75 years of HAL this year and the unit could be operational by 2017-18."

HAL will celebrate the platinum jubilee in the last week of December. The new complex will have the capacity to build the three-tonne class and 10-tonne class of helicopters. "Initially production of the three-tonne LUH (up to 50 helicopters annually) is planned but other activities will also begin soon," he said.

HAL signed a memorandum of understanding with Karnataka Police Housing and Infrastructure Development Corporation for the construction of a compound wall around the 610 acre plot. The PSU would also raise self-sustained township at Gubbi.

Although the official communication from the state is yet to reach HAL, Raju said the firm is glad that the state government, which had already allotted the land at a quick pace, for deciding to shift the high tension lines passing over the land.

"HAL is waiting and expecting further actions from the state government. Main issues related to land have been cleared. Some teething issues need to be sorted out. They include access to land demarcation process etc," Raju said.

He added that the complex will give boost to HAL's helicopter segment since the existing place in Bengaluru is saturated since activities related to research and development, production, overhaul and maintenance are taken up here. The Gubbi complex will also boost over-all helicopter production capacity at HAL to over 100 per year.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Oct 2015 15:53

the fact that it takes months of talks for the Govt to spend a few crores to move power lines out of a plot it itself had granted to a PSU (Another arm of the govt and a national asset) tells you something about how our system cares for urgency of work and red tape cutting.

in Cheen the district party leader would have made a few phone calls and got it done in a week.

in america , they would not only clear the lines but build roads, water, telecom and given all permits in a file before even handing over.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Oct 2015 16:24

Exactly babu giri and lazy politicos run amuck

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Oct 2015 20:08

Singha wrote:the fact that it takes months of talks for the Govt to spend a few crores to move power lines out of a plot it itself had granted to a PSU (Another arm of the govt and a national asset) tells you something about how our system cares for urgency of work and red tape cutting.

in Cheen the district party leader would have made a few phone calls and got it done in a week.

in america , they would not only clear the lines but build roads, water, telecom and given all permits in a file before even handing over.

While I fully agree that our politicos are deeply corrupt I think there is no point in giving the Chinese a special aura just to spite our politicos well known greed. The Chinese commie party and forces are deeply corrupt as well and nowadays they are producing fancy pictures of systems that they claim are ahead of the US without spending even 5 years in their development.

So while we hold our corrupt state governments responsible no need to make an imaginary post about Chinese greatness simply to rhetorically augment a point being made.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Oct 2015 07:00

For the record, Boeing’s press release confirming that an order for Chinook’s and Apaches’s have been placed:

Boeing Receives Order from India for 22 Apache and 15 Chinook Helicopters

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 06 Oct 2015 17:45

‘The LCH fills in an important gap for intercepting and engaging UAV’

Wg Cdr (retd) Unni Pillai, Chief Test Pilot (Rotary Wing) HAL

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Oct 2015 19:08

A Sharma wrote:‘The LCH fills in an important gap for intercepting and engaging UAV’

Wg Cdr (retd) Unni Pillai, Chief Test Pilot (Rotary Wing) HAL

Defense Space Agency Coming Up As An Interim Before Aerospace Command: ACM Arup Raha

The IAF’s requirement of the attack helicopters is independent of the Army Aviation Wing’s procurements. Our attack helicopters have a clearly defined role in our operational plans. Support to the Army is one of these roles. We intend to have three helicopter units equipped with attack helicopters to meet all envisaged operational roles, including AD against slow-moving aircraft during peacetime.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 07 Oct 2015 06:49

A Sharma wrote:‘The LCH fills in an important gap for intercepting and engaging UAV’

Wg Cdr (retd) Unni Pillai, Chief Test Pilot (Rotary Wing) HAL

After the Dhruv entered service, we found pilots were reporting that the controls were very light on Mk I and Mk II. So, we actually made the controls heavier keeping safety in mind. We have also had to retrain pilots coming to Dhruv from older platforms to refrain from jumping on to the controls the moment they enter bad weather. In Dhruv they have to let the autopilot do its job and you should just monitor and this has been reinforced at HATSOFF.
...

In the final production version of the LCH, the glass cockpit will be from HAL and this has been developed in partnership with MCSRDC. As a result, it we will be able to integrate any new system onto the LCH, in a much faster manner. If the glass cockpit had been developed by a foreign vendor, then we would have needed to co-ordinate with that vendor for any weapons addition which would have been not only time consuming but also more expensive to make these changes.
...
Initially, we had IAI of Israel, then we decided to go with MCSRDC. In this interaction with IAI, we reached a certain level, then with MCSRDC we reached a different level. There has been a tremendous amount of work and people are very busy. We are trying to achieve commonality of displays, someone who has flown the Mk IV will not have any problem understanding the cockpit in the LCH.

Good stuff, wonder if NRURAV/autopilot is part of this glass cockpit? moving away from Israel might mean NRURAV was superceded as well?

Bringing the Naval ALH into context, can they make a gyrocopter mode out of it probably making it fuel efficient as only the pusher prop is engine driven

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 07 Oct 2015 13:04

‘The LCH fills in an important gap for intercepting and engaging UAV’

Wg Cdr (retd) Unni Pillai, Chief Test Pilot (Rotary Wing) HAL

Important point... and one which looks all set to happen more frequently in the future

Of course an even better option (once the technology matures) would be Air-Air optimized UCAVs intercepting and engaging UAVs

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Oct 2015 14:37

Manish_P wrote: Of course an even better option (once the technology matures) would be Air-Air optimized UCAVs intercepting and engaging UAVs

Could you say why you feel this is better, because I have reasons to feel otherwise.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Oct 2015 23:16

The air force will visually ID any object and convey a warning before shooting anything out of the sky. Warning is conveyed with hand gestures, certain maneuvering and flares. Try to take photo/video evidence (HUD recorder and like).

If the transgresser is found to be a UAV, then perhaps all that will not be required. But you still need to send your manned asset on an intercept course.

The LCH truly is an excellent platform for this role, in part thanks to twin set of eyeball mark-2. The only limitation will be achieving night time intercepts i guess.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Oct 2015 23:21

quoting my post on the subject (5 years back!)

Aditya G
Post subject: Re: Indian Military AviationPostPosted: 21 Nov 2010 11:30 am

shukla wrote:
IAF to provide aerial protection to major cities
Times of India

We need low speed handling aircraft like Hawk and LCH to do this. Fast jets such as Su-30 should be available on specific days.

Such missions should be done by secondary air force - i.e. Auxilliary Air Force (is anyone in the establishment listening?).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Oct 2015 20:41

People!!! You cannot miss this!!!

Unni Pillai
https://t.co/BdxAsyojSI

https://t.co/fYwH8E3i3S

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Oct 2015 21:21

wow. I hope unni sir and hari nair sir one day get properly recognized for their contributions.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 11 Oct 2015 08:37

^Nice videos, quite informative. Sad that we can't see documentaries and such in this vein.

It seems like a Dhruv presentation to the Thai military at U-Tapao Airfield. From what I can make out, they are quite impressed, particularly of the fact that it operates at 20k feet altitude (that too with 600 kg payload). The LCH (photos and info) has also made an impression it seems (at least the pilots who are being shown around).

Maybe, future customers?

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 11 Oct 2015 08:51

So looks like HAL gave a demo to Thai Airforce in 2011. I wonder why this news was never out.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 11 Oct 2015 09:10

sohamn wrote:So looks like HAL gave a demo to Thai Airforce in 2011. I wonder why this news was never out.

I do remember seeing those videos before most probably linked from BR itself.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Oct 2015 10:04

Can We start showing LCA to them as future customer??

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 11 Oct 2015 10:09

Do I detect a hint of pride on behalf of the Army pilot as he showed off the features of the chopper?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Oct 2015 10:25

pandyan wrote:Shiv saar - who is the officer in the second video explaining navigation systems and auto pilot etc

Don't know.

Incidentally the Dhruv has GPW - ground proximity warning that can be set from 15 sec before impact to 60 sec and the map also displays point of impact.

Gun is slewed to Helmet mounted sight.

Auto pilot reduces pilot workload

Great video for the jingo

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Oct 2015 13:37

hanumadu wrote:
sohamn wrote:So looks like HAL gave a demo to Thai Airforce in 2011. I wonder why this news was never out.
I do remember seeing those videos before most probably linked from BR itself.

Yes it was posted in BR before , always a pleasure to view Dhruv Cockpit and refresh memory , Thanks Shiv

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 12 Oct 2015 08:39

The Dhruv sure is advanced!,
there is a weather console, probably supported by a on-board weather radar, there was a video sometime back showing a radar antenna in the nose

a Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS), at 240kmph maximum speed, a 60 sec look ahead means 4km ranging, a passive system meaning that is just dependent on a detailed set of terrain maps and an altimeter, could possibly cover a larger area, but precludes really low level flights. The mention of google earth, their terrain maps show altitude increments in steps of 100m, is too coarse to be used as a primary tool.

while an active system which uses a terrain ranging radar in the direction of the flight, 4km range could be achieved by a missile seeker in the nose or above the cabin useful in low level flight, so it might be an active system.

the mention of Mi-17s being detected on take off from the Jammu airport means, nape-of-the-earth flying is needed, requiring the Dhruv to move from terrain avoidance to terrain following mode.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 12 Oct 2015 17:35

What was most satisfying for me was the fact that the IAF chappies were selling, with one chap occasionally chipping in to add one point or another... fantastic. Once long ago on BRF, shiv had modified the old slogan which some will remember "Be Indian, Buy Indian", to "Be Indian, Sell Indian"... that is what we're seeing here. Very pleasing indeed.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 13 Oct 2015 05:14

India to have three lines of light military choppers under ‘Make in India'

To meet the massive, urgent requirements of the armed forces, India is set to have three different lines of light military choppers, all of which will be manufactured under the 'Make in India' initiative.

Senior officials have told ET that despite a deal with the Russian government for Ka 226 helicopters, two other lines, including a western chopper that it still to be selected will be required to keep pace with the demand of the three forces.

Indicating that a major 'Make in India' project for the private sector to produce close to 200 helicopters in partnership with a foreign vendor is still alive despite the Kamov deal, a senior air force functionary said that tenders for the program would be out soon.

Indian requirement for light choppers is in excess of 800 with the older Cheetah/Chetak fleet moving towards the end of its service life.

While a competition to replace the choppers had been on in various forms since 2005, in a surprise move, the government announced a direct deal with Russia in May for 200 of the Ka 226 helicopters.

Sources said the Russian deal has, however, not progressed satisfactorily, as Moscow has not yet responded with full details of technical specifications and production plans in India since a formal letter was issued in May.

This had left doubts on whether a parallel competition for similar light choppers that more than a dozen Indian private companies including Tata, Mahindra, L&T and Reliance Defence Systems are bidding for would continue.

"The requirement is so large that a single line is not adequate. We will need to have more than one type of chopper just to meet our needs. Besides, the commercial market for these choppers is also large," a senior official told ET, adding that a 'western line' is fully in the picture.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Oct 2015 09:43

^^^ Reads like a lifafa-article. I could have taken it that three lines are required. But the third line has to be a "western chopper".

Hai re mere DDD* and DDM! Why have you become so transparent?

* Desh Drohi Dalals.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Oct 2015 16:56

Media reports that say that we may send attack helos to help fight ISIS/talibs in Afghanistan.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 14 Oct 2015 11:35

India to have three lines of light military choppers under ‘Make in India' - Economic Times

Indicating that a major 'Make in India' project for the private sector to produce close to 200 helicopters in partnership with a foreign vendor is still alive despite the Kamov deal, a senior air force functionary said that tenders for the program would be out soon.
Indian requirement for light choppers is in excess of 800 with the older Cheetah/Chetak fleet moving towards the end of its service life.

While a competition to replace the choppers had been on in various forms since 2005, in a surprise move, the government announced a direct deal with Russia in May for 200 of the Ka 226 helicopters.

Sources said the Russian deal has, however, not progressed satisfactorily, as Moscow has not yet responded with full details of technical specifications and production plans in India since a formal letter was issued in May.

I hope from now onwards Philip sir will not press for any Indo-Russian collaborations.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 14 Oct 2015 11:54

^One can hope for the dog's tail to be straight, but you know how that would end.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 14 Oct 2015 12:44

Folks, do a factual rebuttal of Philip, please!

Anyways, do read the article carefully, before making judgements in this particular matter. Like indranilroy said, the article sounds like a lifafa. But against the Kamov deal.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 15 Oct 2015 20:12

Vishnu Som ‏@VishnuNDTV 11m

-Setback for HAL: Ecuador grounds all remaining Dhruv choppers and unilaterally cancels contract with HAL
-4 of 7 Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters supplied to Ecuador have crashed, 2 because of pilot error.
-My HAL sources tell me all components and spares were provided in time contrary to Ecuadorian complaints.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Oct 2015 22:53

arun wrote:For the record, Boeing’s press release confirming that an order for Chinook’s and Apaches’s have been placed: Boeing Receives Order from India for 22 Apache and 15 Chinook Helicopters

Per The Aviationist

The improved version of Chinook.CH-47F is equipped with @Honeywell_Aero T55-GA-714A engines w/ excellent “hot and high” capability as well featuring secure comms, self-protection system and adv datalink system .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Oct 2015 23:13

Nick_S wrote:Vishnu Som ‏@VishnuNDTV 11m

-Setback for HAL: Ecuador grounds all remaining Dhruv choppers and unilaterally cancels contract with HAL
-4 of 7 Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters supplied to Ecuador have crashed, 2 because of pilot error.
-My HAL sources tell me all components and spares were provided in time contrary to Ecuadorian complaints.

Not a setback. HAL will have contract cancellation provisions when they signed up.
Also HAL needs to act like a business and not a govt agency when dealing with foreign customers.

srai · Post by **srai** » 16 Oct 2015 03:32

indranilroy wrote:^^^ Reads like a lifafa-article. I could have taken it that three lines are required. But the third line has to be a "western chopper". Hai re mere DDD* and DDM! Why have you become so transparent?

* Desh Drohi Dalals.

DDM -> Desi Dalal Media

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Oct 2015 09:57

Ecuador Dhruv accident pilot error steep bank at low level
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SSDPtEpw-E

Also see
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/10/ ... limit.html

The three member HAL-team of experts, which includes company official KM Bhat, along with Chief Test Pilot Wg Cdr (Retd) Unnikrishna Pillai (who trained the Ecuadorian pilots in 2008) and HAL's Chief Designer of the Rotary Wing R&D Centre, Prasad Sampath, have started work alongside the Accident Investigation Board inquiring into Tuesday's Dhruv crash. Incidentally, the two pilots who miraculously survived the accident, were discharged from hospital yesterday and on the same day, also provided testimony to the Board.

Ok here's the very latest. According to my sources in Ecuador, the ill-fated helicopter is likely to have come under the air forced downward by the rotors (rotorwash) of one of the other Dhruv's flying in the formation. At this point, complications may have started when the pilots Luis Armas and Ivan Abril made an attempt to recover from the ensuing sharp left bank (this is visible in the video). In technical terms, the pilot encountered a cyclic limit to the right (saturation of cyclic - the stick for lateral movement of the helicopter), as a result of which they found they had no further cyclic available at their disposal to stabilise or roll back out of the left turn. In well-documented helicopter flight dynamics, when cyclic saturation is reached, there is an abrupt loss of available lift to counter the turn.

It is understood that the Dhruv flight manual and training programme contains a specific module on recovering from a cyclic limit situation, and the Ecuadorian pilots underwent this process as part of their training in 2008. The training however, taught them how to recover from this situation when the chopper's altitude was at least 1,000 feet. Therefore, considering that the Dhruvs were flying at just 70-meters above the ground -- and if this theory holds -- then the pilots would not have had a chance to recover either way.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 16 Oct 2015 15:34

Another

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 16 Oct 2015 19:00

auto rotating choppers are able to execute full flare just before touchdown as they enter the ground effect, reducing the forward speed and hence any residual impact velocity, with loss of collective as such at low altitude, can they make the tail rotor more powerful to correct the attitude required for a full flare touchdown?

a downwash from a nearby chopper messing up the aerodynamics is similar to situations encountered during bad weather and while in low level flight, so the autopilot taking control as mentioned in the recent article should extend to such rough landing scenario as well?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 16 Oct 2015 21:31

Another aspect seen is the main rotor doesn't articulate wrt the airframe, maybe that feature helps if the collective is saturated?

here is a video of the main rotor making an angle with the airframe so much so that it cut off the refueling probe