Indian Railways Thread

[chaanakya]

Vacuum Toilets in DBRT Rajdhani is installed on pilot basis from 14th Sep 2015 as per some news report.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... om-monday/

[SaiK]

{Deleted}

Please stop posting inane, unreadable nonsense like this. No one can even parse your question in such language. If you cannot write a clearly legible post that contributes to the body of knowledge regularly, please don't post in threads like this. It's not collaborative for others to spend time puzzling over what you're trying to ask and then figure out what to say while you contribute nothing meaningful.

[vsunder]

It is misleading to think that IR does not haul double stacked containers. It actually does from Kandla to Gurgaon, which in part coincides with the alignment that the Western DFC will take. In particular the Western DFC will take the same alignment as the IR tracks in the video linked below, passing through Abu Road--->Palanpur---> Mehsana( going South) and DFC tracks will be East of the IR tracks.
Here is the recent video of a long rake of double stacked container traffic between Palanpur and Abu Rd, hauled by a single WDG4 from Bhagat-ki-Kothi ( note the BGKT on the front of the loco)loco shed. Points to notice about the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHV1wSZcjuA


1. The wagons are BFKI wagons , but with no well as they have in other countries like China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_car

Arshyam:
The wiki entry above has a cryptic note, experiments for 25kv electrics for double stacked containers has begun, so this trial rumor may be correct, but where will they trial this, you need to have a stretch of track with very high OHE? Your other surmise is absolutely correct, note the phrase because of funds given by Japan in the wiki entry. I suppose the locos will have two sets of pantos, one for high OHE and one for the regular height traction cables.


Such well wagons would help in shaving some length from long pantos for electrics hauling double stacked container cars when the Western DFCC gets electrified. Secondly for the tunnel that is being built on the WDFC, it may help in cutting the cost of construction or else the tunnel will have to have an enormous aperture.
I really hope that IR switches to well wagons in large numbers.

2. The Western DFC alignment will run parallel to thee current IR rout route i.e Marwar Jn==>Abu Road==> Palanpur==> Mehesana , but it seems there is no activity yet on the stretch between
Palanpur north to Abu Road where the video was shot. The DFC tracks run east of the IR alignment so the activity should be across the tracks from where the videographer is standing. This is understandable. Only the Rewari( Haryana)-Iqbalgadh(Gujarat) (626 km) section has been tendered since 2013 to Sojitz Consortium, consisting of L&T and Sojitz for all aspects, civil and traction work, and the remaining sections of DFC have not been fully tendered only traction say etc, and Iqbalgarh is 7 miles north of where this video was shot. So we are at the junction of two segments of the project. Also the Sojitz Press release is very clear, Western DFC will be electrified, confirmed now.

https://www.sojitz.com/en/news/2014/11/20141119.php

So we will see long pantos, wow!! Maybe a first in the world! In the US such double stacked container trains run on mighty diesel power.

3. It is seen there is a railroad bed being constructed parallel to the tracks, but it is west of the IR alignment, while DFCC at this point will run East of the alignment all the way to Mehsana. So one concludes this is some doubling works going on unrelated to Western DFC.

Generally EDFC is ahead of Western DFC. Also in the video of the EDFC I posted from around Shikohabad, you can see clearly the blanket, it seems it is red stone dust. The document I posted from the Japanese consultants specify that this blanket should be laid to 0.6m wherever needed, esp. true of the clay soil of the Doab that will most certainly penetrate the ballast with heavy loads in the absence of blanketing.

Port Connectivity

(a) Kandla Port--Gandhidham--Palanpur( connects to DFC here)

(b) Pipavav port--Surendranagar--Viramgram--Mehsana( connects to DFC here)

(c) Mundhra port---Gandhidham and then (a) above

(d) Mumbai Port----Wadala---Kurla---Diva---Vasai Rd. ( connects to DFC here)

Other connections


1. Jodhpur--Luni---Marwar Jn.( connects to DFC here)

2. Okha--Rajkot---Surendranagar and then (b) above

3. Trombay(Turbhe)---Kurla and then see (d) above.

4. Hazira---Surat( connects to DFC here)

Having tracks with heavier axle loads may also help in transporting heavier Arjun MBT's close to the places from where deployment is easy. May make the the arguments of the IA a moot point.



Another First Time in India

Apart from the long pantos, that may be a first in the world, another feature of the DFC will be there is no guard. Yes that is right, no caboose, last van whatchma call it. All trains will have EOTT( End of Train telemetry systems) that will eliminate the need for a guard. This will be a first for India on IR, Metros possibly have it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-of-train_device

[vsunder]

A very nice summary with slick graphics by Sojitz Corp, the prime Japanese contractor for western DFC. Compares IR with what DFC will do. An absolute game changer. 32.5 tonne axle load as opposed to 22.5 tonnes on IR, 15,000 tonne rakes as opposed to 4,000 tonne rakes on IR. 7.1 m double stacked containers on DFC as opposed to 4.265 m on IR. Plus the introduction of a host of modern technologies. See my post above, no caboose, last van etc, but EOT, Telemetry and Wilma in the engine doing HTD duty. See the post above.

https://www.lntecc.com/homepage/multisl ... sojitz.pdf

[arun]

"Jindal Steel and Power Limited (JSPL) has flagged off, what it claimed, India’s longest ever rails measuring 260 metres to the Dedicated Freight Corridor Corporation of India Limited (DFCCIL). The rails will be used for construction of the eastern corridor of the landmark 350-km dedicated freight railway network in India, the company said in a statement here." :

JSPL dispatches 260 mtr rails for freight corridor

[vsunder]

"Jindal Steel and Power Limited (JSPL) has flagged off, what it claimed, India’s longest ever rails measuring 260 metres to the Dedicated Freight Corridor Corporation of India Limited (DFCCIL). The rails will be used for construction of the eastern corridor of the landmark 350-km dedicated freight railway network in India, the company said in a statement here." :

JSPL dispatches 260 mtr rails for freight corridor

Jindal's rails reached too late for the first stretch, Durgauti-Sasaram(56 km) to be commissioned March 2016. Engine rolling has already taken place on 30th June. Sasaram is only a temporary junction station where DFC connects to IR. Maybe these rails are for the rest of the Mughalsarai-Son Nagar (118 km) section of which Sasaram-Durgauti is a piece and the other pieces, Khurja-Bhaupur(Kanpur) and Bhaupur-Mughalsarai for which the contract to GMR constructions has been awarded a few months ago. Regarding transporting 260m rails, the issues are already outlined above in the Powerpoint presentation I linked a few posts up. Lastly as I correctly surmised above, yes the DFC will not pass through Kanpur/Juhi marshalling yard but through Bhimsen in Kanpur dehat. Bhimsen will be a junction station with DFC meeting the IR tracks on the Kanpur-Jhansi branch line, another branch line from Banda comes and meets the Kanpur-Jhansi line here. So DFC simply bypasses major population centers, like it does Vadodara on the Western DFC.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=124598

You can read all of the above in the Press conference of Adesh Sharma GM of DFC Corporation. Here is a nice video of the tracks on the Durgauti-Sasaram section, taken by a Mughalsarai bound individual, you can see the Harsco Corp track laying NTC machine with the gantry device that moves the sleepers/ties from the back to the front where a clamp lays them out on the ground:( video posted Feb 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBg8CkaoYKc

Factoid: Banda is close to the massive fort of Kalinjar which resisted many an attack from early times. Sher Shah Suri was killed here. Also this part of Bundelkhand is famous for the legend of Alha and Udal, that bards used to sing about in my childhood days. It has a close parallel to another story about brothers that bards used to sing in Mangalore, 1800 miles away and the stuff for yakshagana, Koti-Chenayya, two brothers:( Know your India)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinjar_Fort

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alha

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koti_and_Chennayya

This India is gone, I feel lucky to have seen it, the whole big shebang lot from Mangalore to Mahoba, from Angadipuram to Agartala and beyond.

[vsunder]

Some videos of Western DFC being constructed.

Bridge over the River Purna, at Navsari, ( between Surat and Mumbai)Gujarat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVic5A-GMo4

Factoid: Navsari has/had a large Parsi population. The parents of Farrokh Bulsara a Parsi boy were from Navsari. He spent part of his childhood here. Later he came to be known as Freddie Mercury like thus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvsqnfijZ9o

Fanboi is talking and trying to impress LP, with Whatsapp and Suryanagari express and WCAM, but the real forest
is passing by, western DFC minor bridges flash by, unnoticed by all:( between Dahanu Road and Mumbai) Palghar to Boisar( bridges flash past on right, the Eastern side at 0:49, 2:28, 2:46) also note ALP calling out signals as Sachin remarked earlier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jIPOjgzL7c

Eastern DFC, bridge over the Son River, Son Nagar(Bihar)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XRBXbbYOUM

[vsunder]

Speeds of 42 trains on Western Railway and 17 on Central Railway upped from 100kph to 130kph from Oct 1. New time tables for all zones came out on Oct 1. Now Mr. Prabhu please ensure that the tripling between Kalyan and Kasara goes smoothly and then CR can also match WR for trains out of CSTM up through the Thull ghat. I will even clap if you triple, Bhusawal to Igatpuri, now you just get a thump in the back and just a Bravo as the article says, good show!!
http://www.mid-day.com/articles/indian- ... h/16584164

Like the 3 patti stations all in a row, Doddampatti, Dasampatti and Samalpatti.

My reference to Kalyan-Kasara third line is this:
http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-k ... st-2109713

The hard working Binoo Nair writes an article with the legwork I have come to expect of him. Kalyan to Kasara( last stop of EMU on the Mumbai CR network at the base of the Thul Ghat). On Kalyan to Kasara run trains to Howrah from Mumbai, to Delhi via Bhopal, suburban EMU's, and trains going to Patna, and Northeast India. All this on a double lined tracks. Once you build capacity here, things will free up. Interestingly in the difficult Thull Ghat, it is triple lined from Kasara to Igatpuri. Thull ghat has one of the steepest slopes for BG 1:37 ruling. It is a Class A line.

[arshyam]

^^ Saar, that article does not give a correct picture - a few trains have been speeded up by cutting their slack time (time allotted for engineering+traffic buffer). There is no way on earth that increasing the speed by 20kmph on a relatively short section can shave off 2:45 hours, which is the max reduction. Also, except the 2 Rajdhanis, Ahmedabad Shatabdi and the Ahmedabad Double decker, trains can run only up to 110 kmph, since they use the older ICF coaches. The 3 aforesaid trains (and maybe a few other upgraded ones) only can utilize this speed jump as they are equipped with LHB capable coaches. Even with these Rajdhanis, the speed up is due to increase in track speed from 110 to 130 upto Godhra Jn., and 100 to 110 from Godhra up to Ratlam (source: IRFCA). That being a long distance, they can utilize the additional speed to cut down travel time. Anyway, still a positive development, though not at the level of breathless coverage provided by the article .

Regarding the ghats, it beats me why CR added the third line through the ghats a long time ago, but has till date not added capacity between Karjat-Kalyan and Kasara-Kalyan. At least in case of Karjat, the new Karjat-Panvel bypass is useful to divert freight traffic to JNPT, but the Kasara line is severely congested. Do you know if the Bhor ghat line is Class A? (Karjat-Lonavala towards Pune). This is also tripled in the ghat section.

Arshyam:
The wiki entry above has a cryptic note, experiments for 25kv electrics for double stacked containers has begun, so this trial rumor may be correct, but where will they trial this, you need to have a stretch of track with very high OHE? Your other surmise is absolutely correct, note the phrase because of funds given by Japan in the wiki entry. I suppose the locos will have two sets of pantos, one for high OHE and one for the regular height traction cables.

I hope so, no point building some super duper locos and not being able to use them outside the DFC! Regarding long pantos, SER (or was it ECoR) had tried testing it out a decade or so ago. Ostensibly the reason was to support double stacking. I am not sure if the DFC locos will use these pantographs or will use some Japanese design.

Here's a random link that has a picture of what I am talking about:
http://www.worldrecordacademy.com/techn ... _90314.htm


From the link above:

The new generation pantograph developed by Stone India for the Indian Railways allows an increase in the highest of the overhead wires (catenary height) from the standard 6 meters to 7.5 meters-setting the world record for the High Reach pantograph for highest catenary for electric locomotives.

Such a device is suitable for locomotives to be used for running double-stack containers as envisaged in the upcoming dedicated freight corridors being implemented by Indian Railways. (enlarge photo)

This will also enable Indian Railways to introduce double-decker passenger trains in high density suburban passenger route. The pantographs have already been commissioned successfully after extensive test by Indian Railways.

I checked Stone India, and they seem to have a "high reach" pantograph, so it looks like the trials were indeed successful:

http://www.stoneindia.co.in/products/co ... rain-power

ABOH Pantographs

Air bellow high reach pantograph is direct air raising pantograph for use on 25 KV AC, 50 Hz electric locomotive for speed up to 150 kmph with inbuilt automatic dropping device facility . Pantograph is light weight, robust and compact,it has operating height of 3600 mm from lock down condition.

Port Connectivity

(a) Kandla Port--Gandhidham--Palanpur( connects to DFC here)

(b) Pipavav port--Surendranagar--Viramgram--Mehsana( connects to DFC here)

(c) Mundhra port---Gandhidham and then (a) above

(d) Mumbai Port----Wadala---Kurla---Diva---Vasai Rd. ( connects to DFC here)

Please include JNPT-Panvel-Diva- Vasai Rd and the Dahej port, connecting near Bharuch.

[vsunder]

^^^
1. Thanks for reminding me that all news has to be dissected carefully and analysed. The initial reports are always
optimistic no? Still something is happening.

2.

Regarding the ghats, it beats me why CR added the third line through the ghats a long time ago, but has till date not added capacity between Karjat-Kalyan and Kasara-Kalyan. At least in case of Karjat, the new Karjat-Panvel bypass is useful to divert freight traffic to JNPT, but the Kasara line is severely congested. Do you know if the Bhor ghat line is Class A? (Karjat-Lonavala towards Pune). This is also tripled in the ghat section.

Yes, I agree strange, absolutely. They did the harder section a long time ago through the mountains and let the easier one in the plains languish. That too it will take them 11 years to make the 67km track if the article is to be believed. The project was first broached in 2009 and it will be complete 5 years from now. I do not think Karjat-Pune is Class A, but Lonavala to Pune is going to be tripled,
was that not in the last budget? I suppose you can ask the same question here too. My guess is that they fear a derailment in the ghats ( Bhor and Thul) may really mess things up big time, so three lines gives them a measure of reliability. There is some recent case of a goods derailment at Igatpuri outer and this blocked one line, but they had two, so they managed. They were also lucky that it was at the tail end of Thul Ghat.

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/g ... 52173.html

3. Thanks for digging these pics and schematics of the long pantos. Speeds on the DFC are 100kph and the pantos are rated for 150kph from your post. The electrics will be new, the Sojitz brochure said the rakes will be 15,000 tonne rakes, so need a lot of tractive power to haul them at 100kph. Need some serious Japani maal, the WAG-5 in the article will not make it.

4. The port connectivity routes are from the DFC display at Vibrant Gujarat.

Thanks for all the comments and digging this info up as you promised.

[chaitanya]

National War Memorial, new AIIMS & bonus for railway employees: 7 things Cabinet cleared today

3) In an early Diwali cheer, the Cabinet okayed a proposal to give productivity linked bonus to about 12.58 lakh railway employees. The financial implication of payment of 78 days' bonus to railway employees has been estimated to be Rs 1,030.02 crore. The wage calculation ceiling prescribed for payment of PLB to the eligible non-gazetted railway employees is 3,500/- per month and the maximum amount payable per eligible railway employee is Rs 8,975 for 78 days.

[chetak]

So I feel in very many cases, there are checks and balances but the "single point of failure", is when multiple people forget (at the same time) to do their duties as per the procedure.

When such incidents occur it is uncommon for any single action or ‘failure’ to be wholly responsible. It is far more likely that a series of seemingly minor events all happen consecutively and/or concurrently so on that one day, at that one time, all the ‘holes’ line up and a serious event results. On investigation it becomes clear that multiple failings occurred and the outcome appears inevitable, but for those working in the system it can be shocking as they have often worked with these same environmental conditions and small errors or slips occurring regularly without harm ever occurring as a result.

The Swiss Cheese model of accident causation is a model used in risk analysis and risk management, including aviation, engineering, healthcare, and as the principle behind layered security, as used in computer security and defense in depth. It likens human systems to multiple slices of swiss cheese, stacked side by side, in which the risk of a threat becoming a reality is mitigated by the differing layers and types of defenses which are "layered" behind each other. Therefore in theory, lapses and weaknesses in one defense do not allow a risk to materialize, since other defenses also exist, to prevent a single point of weakness. The model was originally formally propounded by Dante Orlandella and James T. Reason of the University of Manchester,[1] and has since gained widespread acceptance. It is sometimes called the cumulative act effect.

Although the Swiss cheese model is respected and considered to be a useful method of relating concepts, it has been subject to criticism that it is used over broadly, and without enough other models or support

[Gus]

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 498_1.html
All the 60,000 coaches in Indian Railways will soon be provided with user-friendly dustbins, Railway Minister Suresh Prabhu on Friday said.

Barring air-condition (AC) and a few non-AC sleeper coaches, majority of coaches currently don't have dustbins resulting in problems in disposing garbage by the passengers in moving trains.

[Gus]

http://www.thestatesman.com/news/india/ ... 95879.html
The Indian Railways on Friday launched facilities for booking of paperless unreserved tickets as well as platform tickets to cut queues at reservation counters.

Most of the new facilities are aimed at the Mumbai suburban sections to begin with where 75 lakh passengers use the local train services to commute.

The new services are in tune with Prime Minister Narendra Modi's 'Digital India' mission and seek to help passengers save time by booking tickets right at their home before travelling, Railway Minister Suresh Prabhu said as he launched the IT-enabled passenger services here.

The paperless platform ticket programme would cover the major sections in the Mumbai suburban sections, as well as New Delhi and Hazrat Nizamuddin stations here.

[vsunder]

Power point Presentation by SER, of track linking and commissioning on important tripling and doubling projects outlined in my earlier posts. Slides show the total ineptitude of UPA and the progress after 2014 and targets in 2015-2016. Already the achieved results are double that of UPA and the fiscal year has not ended. As explained the projects aim to establish triple lines to mine heads for rapid evacuation of coal and minerals, facilitate movement of coal and minerals on the important Howrah-Nagpur-Mumbai trunk line and build up capacity and augment the various branch lines linking this important trunk line to various steel plants, ancillary industries and mine and pit heads in Jharkhand, Chattisgarh and Odisha.

http://www.ser.indianrailways.gov.in/up ... ements.pdf

[Austin]

Check the pictures in the link

Maharajas’ Express: World’s leading luxury train bags global luxury award

[Austin]

It says Talgo trains can run between 180-220 km per hours
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/sli ... 355155.cms

Can our current track take this speed ?
What prevents our current trains to run at high speed ? Is it the engine cannot do more than 120-130 ?

[Suraj]

The tracks and signaling I would think. WAP5s are based on the Swiss Railway Re460s, which run at 200km/h . Even Talgo is not one kind of train, but an articulation technology that's been implemented in a range of trains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo . The AVE 102 Talgos run at 300-330km/h between Madrid and Barcelona.

[Sachin]

Can our current track take this speed ?
What prevents our current trains to run at high speed ? Is it the engine cannot do more than 120-130 ?

As Suraj rightly pointed out the alignment of the tracks, and the signal system in place would have an impact on the overall speed of the train. In non-automatic block territories lots of signal operations are still done manually, with lots of phone calls and manual switch pulling etc. Secondly, many routes are double line (or even worse single line). So in such routes sooner or later a high speed train would encounter a slow moving train ahead of it. So there again continuous runs at high speed cannot be maintained.

[Austin]

Thanks Suraj , Sachin , So the whole High Speed Thinge can only be run on dedicated tracks for high speed trains , even upgrade the current one would involve many things in between

[Kashi]

Thanks Suraj , Sachin , So the whole High Speed Thinge can only be run on dedicated tracks for high speed trains , even upgrade the current one would involve many things in between

It is preferable to run them that way. There are instances where High-speed trains share the same tracks with other trains for a part of their route (Akita-Shinkansen in Japan, TGV and ICE in Switzerland etc.), but then they no longer remain "High-speed".

Akita-Shinkansen for instance drops down to 130km/h on the shared tracks as compared with 320 km/h on the Shinkansen-only tracks.

[Theo_Fidel]

IR thinks the existing infrastructure, once decongested/upgraded/remove freight/etc can be speeded up to 200-250 kmph type speeds for passenger. No major show stoppers apparently… ..no plans for 300 kmph+ on existing lines...

[Suraj]

Thanks Suraj , Sachin , So the whole High Speed Thinge can only be run on dedicated tracks for high speed trains , even upgrade the current one would involve many things in between

You don't necessarily need dedicated lines for ~200km/h . The Spanish RENFE runs Alvia services at upto 250 km/h on a combination of dedicated high speed lines and regular track. The famous Spanish high speed rail crash was an Alvia train whose driver brainlessly took a 80km/h curve on regular track at 160km/h . You do need uncongested tracks. Single/double tracks don't work because you'll easily catch up against slower traffic. In cab signaling is necessary. One of Talgo's benefits is that they claim their articulation technology lets trains handle regular tracks with less vibration, by seating the bogie between coaches. Anyway that is upto RENFE to prove by running their trains on our tracks to demonstrate their technology. I have traveled on the AVE and Alvia. AVE does run at 300km/h peak speed on dedicated high speed lines, but Shinkansen was much smoother.

IR will get a lot more system throughput and running speed simply by at least tripling track in the trunk corridors. A double track system is pretty much a road with one lane in each direction, and its throughput is gated by the slowest train on it. Sure you can get around it using offset tracks in places, but that is a maintenance load, especially with largely manual signaling.

[arshyam]

All this Talgo-Ralgo stuff is brochuritis to an extent. We already have locos and coaches capable of 160kmph (the WAP-5 was tested upto 184kmph 10+ years ago and a new 200kmph variant rolled out recently) and can run them across the country if tracks permitted it. But our fastest track is capable of 150 (perhaps 160 now) for a 160-odd KM distance between Palwal - Agra Cantt, and only the Bhopal Shatabdi and the Mumbai Rajdhanis can make use of it by travelling at 150 and 140 peak speed respectively. Mind you, peak speed NOT average speed. And even they achieve such speeds at the cost of other trains - just ask the pax in trains leaving from Delhi in the evening, how mercilessly they are sidelined to allow the Rajdhanis to overtake.

Here's a list of top speeds on various trunk lines (from my memory, so the boundaries aren't exact. Listing them to show the current system capability)

Delhi Mumbai:
Delhi - Mathura - Agra: 150 Raj/110 Ordy.
Mathura - Kota: 130 Raj/110 ordy
Kota-Ratlam-Godhra: 110 all
Godhra - Vadodara - Surat: 120 Raj/110 Ordy.
Surat - Borivali: 130 Raj/110 ordy

Delhi Kolkata:
Ghaziabad - Kanpur - Allahabad- Mughalsarai: 130 Raj/110 Ordy.
Mughalsarai-Gaya-Asansol: 110 (all) (there is a ghat section somewhere that reduces speed even more)
Asansol - Barddhaman - Howrah: 130 Raj/110 Ordy.

Delhi Chennai:
Delhi-Agra: 150 Raj/110 Ordy.
Agra - Lalitpur (MP): 130 Raj/110 Ordy.
Lalitpur (MP) - Bhopal - Nagpur-Kazipet-Sec'bad/Vijayawada - Chennai: 120 Raj/110 Ordy.

Howrah-Chennai and Mumbai-Chennai are max 110 for all trains, subject to restrictions for ghat section, etc. Mumbai-Chennai is not even fully doubled. And all goods trains are restricted to 75kmph, with an average of 25-30 kmph overall speed. Only exception are the so-called container Rajdhanis, which can run at 100. I mentioned goods since they share tracks with the trains on the trunk routes and everywhere else.

Also, the above are the max permissible speeds, which will happen only when trains get all clear signals. Given the realities of traffic, the key metric is the average speeds of trains. With the above tracks, and the 160 Kmph rolling stock, even the so-called superfast Rajdhanis eke out an average of 85-87 kmph average. This should be the focus, not some imported tech that can run in bursts of 180 for a few km at a time.

All these trunk routes don't have auto signalling for their full extent as mentioned above. So even these fast Rajdhanis have to run on block territory with manual controls. Point is, Talgo tech is welcome, but it won't be as ground-breaking as people might expect, since the reason for low speeds is NOT capability of rolling stock, but congestion and old signalling tech. Talgo cannot fix all that. Then, vsunder saar had mentioned the track beds being very old and designed for lighter shorter loads, will Talgo's articulation tech need higher loading? (I don't think so, since passenger trains are generally lighter, but it will be good to have some confirmation from gurus). Of course, when it comes to Railways, DDM is on point there too, and they don't drop the ball. Hence the flights, oops, trains of fancy in some articles

[Karthik S]

IR can save a lot of money this way:

http://www.railnews.co.in/adani-to-supp ... -per-unit/

Indian Railways have been procuring power through the State Utilities at an average rate of Rs 6.75 per unit. Adani Power Ltd have been awarded the contract at a landed tariff of Rs 3.69 per kWH (unit) for a period of three years,” Indian Railways said in press statement issued after inking the pact

[Dipanker]

IR can save a lot of money this way:

http://www.railnews.co.in/adani-to-supp ... -per-unit/

Indian Railways have been procuring power through the State Utilities at an average rate of Rs 6.75 per unit. Adani Power Ltd have been awarded the contract at a landed tariff of Rs 3.69 per kWH (unit) for a period of three years,” Indian Railways said in press statement issued after inking the pact

I am not sure about saving in this case, as state govt. themselves are part of govt. and thus it is govt. money being transferred from one govt. dept. (Railways) to another (State govt.). Beside the state govt. gets vital revenue to fund its programs.


{Deleted}

[Austin]

We are aiming at investing Rs 8.5 lakh crore in five years in Railways: Suresh Prabhu

On key numbers that are driving the IR

Railways has to be a profitable organisation. It has to be economically sound. So, unless it is commercially driven, it can't serve social interests. The Railways has suffered in the past mainly because of lack of investments. In fact, the Railways is a story of numbers. Falling operating ratio is a number; falling electrification is a number; falling track renewal is a number. But the question is how we will arrange the money to to correct those numbers. But arranging money should not be just going to the finance ministry (with a begging bowl). The finance ministry is not waiting with unlimited amount of money to be splurged. The finance ministry is not Bill Gates or Emir of Kuwait — sitting with a lot of money and not knowing how to spend it.

So, I began with the number of Rs 8.5 lakh crore (total investments in IR for five years, as was announced in his first Rail Budget in February this year). In my opinion we should be able to double that number to (close to) $300 billion in the next five years. This number is required for the railways to be up and going.

On analysis of 100 terabytes of annual data

Raw data has no value unless those are analysed properly. Pentagon may be collecting more data than us. Google every day collects so much of data. But data finally needs to be used for management solutions. So, I am converting our data collection department into a data analysis department. Data per se has no meaning unless you convert those data into actionable points. We should not just collect data, We should not just collect data, we should be able to analyse those data for our decision-making process. We must use the data for outcomes.

On overhauling the railway accounting system

We are changing the accounting system completely. It's not just about moving from single entry to double entry accounting as has been suggested by some committees. We are going beyond it. We are converting budgeting to expenditure to output to outcome. We are integrating management information and management accounting, costing etc all into one. We are in the process of roping in some of the best IT companies to provide us the software solution. Because of the sheer volume of data that we have it's far more important for IR than any other department to work on a management information system. And the management information system must capture the operating data in a manner that those can be interpreted and used. Our ultimate objective of data is to take informed management decisions.

[Austin]

8,5 lakh crores comes to $150 billion and now they are talking of $300 billion , where are they going to get that kind of money ?

[panduranghari]

Austin,
We already have enough funds within the country. The government is trying its best to mobilise them. People trust Modi government. However, it will take time for people to believe the government has its best interest at heart.

When I say funds - I mean gold. And gold will move when the conditions are right.

Now what will be the condition when gold will move? When its priced high enough that people believe its carry is more expensive than its utility. Gold at rupees 2500/g may not lead to stocks moving. However, will gold at 10000/g or even higher lead to the outflow from homes into the government gold schemes?

My belief is - YES. It will move and it will lubricate the trade that needs a sound foundation. Western countries will see this and want to participate in this modern day gold rush. It will be like Klondike gold rush x 100.

Everyone will want a piece- RUssians, AMericans, Europeans. They will bring technology in for the returns that they are almost guaranteed. There pension funds which are pretty much bankrupt will want money.

Of course all this to be TFWIW. Time of all will prove all things.

[Austin]

Well gold is what people have and if they give it to the government what chance is there they will get it back ?

We are talking of $30 billion investment in IR each year for next 5 years , May be they can moblise it or may be Foreign investors might pour in money. Time will tell.

They are perhaps better off part privatising IR and giving it to some big Indian Pvt Companies to manage , In the lines of how Metro is managed

[Rahul M]

problem is that the money making sections of IR are the ones that fund the social responsibility ones, which are loss making. mindless privatisation will leave IR with only the burden but none of the financial muscle to carry it.

[Supratik]

Yes, it is not possible to privatize freight or premium services at this stage. Should focus on privatizing station-based development. Meanwhile there are complaints of terrible food being served by IRCTC on premium trains. Suresh Prabhu needs a wake-up call.

[Austin]

Also, the above are the max permissible speeds, which will happen only when trains get all clear signals. Given the realities of traffic, the key metric is the average speeds of trains. With the above tracks, and the 160 Kmph rolling stock, even the so-called superfast Rajdhanis eke out an average of 85-87 kmph average. This should be the focus, not some imported tech that can run in bursts of 180 for a few km at a time.

All these trunk routes don't have auto signalling for their full extent as mentioned above. So even these fast Rajdhanis have to run on block territory with manual controls. Point is, Talgo tech is welcome, but it won't be as ground-breaking as people might expect, since the reason for low speeds is NOT capability of rolling stock, but congestion and old signalling tech. Talgo cannot fix all that. Then, vsunder saar had mentioned the track beds being very old and designed for lighter shorter loads, will Talgo's articulation tech need higher loading? (I don't think so, since passenger trains are generally lighter, but it will be good to have some confirmation from gurus). Of course, when it comes to Railways, DDM is on point there too, and they don't drop the ball. Hence the flights, oops, trains of fancy in some articles

arshyam , Thanks for the informative write up

If what you suggest is true and we do have WAP-5 that can do 180 and latest one can do 200 then isnt it better of investing money on modernising Tracks and Signal associated infra to say double the average speed compared to what it is today.

Even achieving this would reduce the transport time to half.

Whats the point in opting for Talgo or some high speed project when there are bottleneck that these new trains might not be able to overcome it

[Austin]

Not sure if this was posted before

Palace on Wheels - Rated No. 4 Luxury Train in the World

[Karthik S]

My understanding is that even if you upgrade the tracks and signalling, locomotive hauled trains can't sustain the same average speed as a train set.

[Sachin]

My understanding is that even if you upgrade the tracks and signalling, locomotive hauled trains can't sustain the same average speed as a train set.

Not an engineer by any terms, but train sets generally have coaches which have small engines inside them (like what we see in suburban trains or MEMUs). Where as in a traditional train, the loco is the heavy-duty man and literally pulls all the coaches. So this pulling would perhaps take more efforts and time. Where as in train-sets and MEMU it is more of a group effort which many more coaches in the rake having the facility to self propel.

[hanumadu]

An average speed of 150 kmph would do wonders. Imagine the savings for passengers who don't have to buy a meal or more than one bottled water and of course the convenience of a short journey. People would be happily willing to put some of the savings towards the ticket price. There are a lot of people who commute hours together to work. Many years ago, I saw people from vijayawada commute to hyderabad ( 4 hours one way in satavahana) for work. At that time satavahana was fast and clean. Last time I was on it in couple of years ago, it was crowded, dirty and slow. For a city like hyderabad, 150kmph would open a world of opportunities for people in warangal, nalgonda, mahboognagar and medak.

[Theo_Fidel]

My understanding is that even if you upgrade the tracks and signalling, locomotive hauled trains can't sustain the same average speed as a train set.

The TGV is locomotive hauled. It does have one at each end though.

The trainset (MU) advantage is more space, more seats, cheaper tickets, so it has pretty much become world standard.
Even on IR, the locomotive on front means 72-80 forgone tickets/seats, in a chair car 150 seats lost...

[Suraj]

The TGV is locomotive hauled. It does have one at each end though.

The trainset (MU) advantage is more space, more seats, cheaper tickets, so it has pretty much become world standard.
Even on IR, the locomotive on front means 72-80 forgone tickets/seats, in a chair car 150 seats lost...

This is an interesting question. EMUs will add a power/mechanical maintenance load for all the cars, as opposed to just the locomotives. On the other hand locos generate more track wear. EMUs accelerate faster. This EMUs vs locomotives blog lists things out well. Europeans often go for locomotives for cultural and technological reasons: both French and Spanish rail and track are separate companies (SNCF vs RFF, RENFE vs ADIF), so to the trainmaker 'tracks are not our problem'. Japan Railway in comparison maintains the Shinkansen track.

We may have a tough decision to make between locomotive and EMU semi HSR, because the use of tilting trains or Talgo articulation on non-dedicated HSR track geometry, is harder with EMUs. I know Shinkansen EMUs have tilting, but it's not very dramatic, compared to the UK Intercity ones for example. The British turned to tilting technology to get around the inability to relay straighter track in their small geographic confines, and we will probably be as constrained by lack of space.

[chaanakya]

Ok Here is brief tour report.

First NDLS
It was disappointing. Unclean. Swaccha Bharat concept has not touched it a wee bit.

On Rajdhani.
I had tickets on Rajababu and Sayal raja wait listed and ECR King Patna Rajdhani confirmed. So started with Patna Rajdhani for Bihar Journey. Had to make quite a detour and passed though hotspots of elections areas.

ECR King was clean. First A/c is as good as one can get on train journey in India but not as good as that in Rajababu which is cared for by staff very exceptionally with lot of newer facilities being introduced first.

Food quality was good. better than what I had in DBRT RAj. Staff were courteous and helpful. Serving was offered though declined.Tray had paper with scheme details of Govt of India like JDY, Sukanya Samridhi Yojana and Atal pension Yojana.

Train maintained timings.

Upto Kanpur it is Automatic signalling except in few places. Train toutinely maintained 130+ kmph for fairly long time with occasionally dropping on caution and stations. Max speed recorded between Delhi and Kanpur was 135 kmph. between Mugalsarai and Patna it kept at 110+ kmph.

Toilets and bathroom were clean. No Bio toilet. But had closed container type. Had a non working pressure flush. Had to use emergency flush. Missed dust bins near wash basin.But staff collected all garbage with coupe dustbins provided in each coupe or cabin. bathrooms were of old design , I think.

There was one staff for cleaning who went to sleep promptly after dinner was served.

Liveries were good.Steam Clean and press wrapped in manila cover.

On Stations en route

After Aligarh stations were clean. Kanpur was also clean. Almost zero litter. Surface quality of platform was not so good. noticed that work was going on in some stations.

Patna was very dirty. Seems no effort was made to clean. Waiting room was so so and toilet was horrible. Broken and dirty ones . Had to run away. Got next train after an hour and had a sigh of relief. never again I am going to make patna as transit . Officers there should be sacked pronto.

Up to barh and Mokama cleanliness concept was absent. beyond that stations were clean and well almost litter free. but some Biharis in Bihar being what they are couldn't resist spoiling the place. But they were few. majority tried to keep place clean.
Stations were spruced up in a temporary drive for face lift. I hope they improve it further. Standard was not upto what I have seen in TN but still some change for better.

Special Sqd was there to check ticketless travelers. And they were there in all shape and sizes, Railway men, Students, Home guards, advocates, daily passengers. All arguing with squad till GRP appeared to catch them. Threatening officers as if it was their right to travel in 2AC ( Onward train had only 2AC for remaining part of my journey)

Politics was ho topics a that was poll day for phase 2. And Niku being the choice of most of the persons including temporary visitors selling their wares.Although Hawkers were less.

This was an express train. There was adequate cleanliness in the bogie. It routinely touched 100+. Bogie was ICF coach. Toilet was kept clean for most part of the journey and at some junction cleaning crew came for cleaning it.

Swaccha Bharat concept has made a dent in the psyche of the people, officials and users. There was hesitation to litter and usually they searched for Bins. Children giving disapproving glances to adult was high point for me. Now people are opening stopping others from littering, well except in and around Patna.

Need to take the momentum to next level by providing high quality facilities in model stations. Drawing up standards for Stations constructions and passenger convenience. Ticketless travel is a big menace in Bihar. It is a matter of their right. TTEs make the most of the situation.


On a side note:

It was very important for me to see the progress of addition tracks from Delhi to Kanpur. The work is almost complete and part of tracks seemed operational. Didn't read anywhere that CRS had cleared it. Must have missed the news. Work was fast paced.