Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

soumik · Post by **soumik** » 31 Oct 2015 15:24

I personally think that we may also be looking at buying the S400 as a kind of capability filler making up for our lack of squadrons vis a vis the PLAAF until the IAF is more robustly augmented by the PAKFA/AMCA .
Also used as an offensive defence asset it can also be used to reduce required squadron levels in the western front by denying the PAF the right to fly .
One further thing GADESI on DFI commented that each S400 battery comes with its own bodyguard of sorts made up of an equal number of PANTSIR batteries, could the gurus shed more light on whether we are also going to get PANTSIRS or not?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 31 Oct 2015 15:36

Just wondering, with Arihant close to being operational, it is likely to be nuclear armed even when at base (until the new under mountain shelters are ready), or atleast the n-tipped missiles will be close by. Wouldn't the whole area need to be under layered intense air/missile-defense cover? S-400 could fill a certain role. This could be the urgent operational requirement.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 31 Oct 2015 16:03

The Objective of S400s purcase is twofold, to threaten Pakistan with retaliatory action on case a terrorist attack and secondly to dissuade Russia from selling more weapons to Pakistan.

We never looked to threaten Pakistan seriously after Shakti tests. Our only response was Cold Start. Now to think of it, provide the strike corps some protection from the Nasr Rockets.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 31 Oct 2015 16:15

Austin wrote:... There was no need for 400 km SAM in our environment till yesterday and suddenly critical requirement arises today , Either they were negotiating secretly for long or its one of those critical op requirement as like past deals we will never know.

I suspect this comes from the non-arrival of DRDO's missile shield which seemed imminent a few years back, at least in a limited way over Delhi and Mumbai. Russian SAMs, especially the big ones, have always been top tier. I would like to see a roadmap where these systems will be augmented and eventually replaced by Indian systems down the line.

I doubt this procurement is to counter Nasr missile, whose flight time may not be enough for interception by a strategic SAM system.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 31 Oct 2015 16:53

S-400 carries the advantage of short launch time once approval is given unlike mobilization.

Americans may not be able to provide advance warning to Pakis in time for corrective action.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 31 Oct 2015 16:55

I still don't get it...why s400? Why now? I ask this in the specific context of the pad/ad...weren't these ready for deployment in 2012 itself according to VKS? Has there been some obstacle in this system? Or are they looking at a new measure altogether for the various reasons cited earlier?

Is it that the pad/aad are purely for bmd while s400 is a new layer of protection against the more traditional SAM threat..aircraft? If so, what are the likely placements? Defensive? cover cities and strategic locations or more aggressive gaining control over enemy airspace

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Oct 2015 17:33

Finally it is official! S400 under Make in India program.

http://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/20 ... kar_535281

Which issues will you raise with your Russian counterparts at the meeting?

I will put it like this. I have been reading about Russia since my childhood — Sputnik and all those magazines. Somehow they were delivered to my residence when I was at school and college long back. I have always seen Russia as an all-weather friend for India — the two countries have always had a great relationship. I believe that this relationship should be enhanced. My visit to Moscow will be an attempt to help the relationship blossom further. There are many issues that can always be in such relationships, and I think the best way is to have them resolved. I see a certain enthusiasm to resolve them from both sides as well as possibilities to involve Russia in the “Make it in India” program.

You’ve mentioned the “Make it in India” program launched by the Indian government to transform the country into a global manufacturing hub. Are there any joint projects between our countries as part of this program which are already taking shape?

They may not take final shape during my visit but we’d like to prepare some of them for Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Russia in December — for example, the project for joint production of Kamov Ka-226 helicopters. I hope to use my visit to have it inked on paper when the prime minister arrives. Also the purchase of S-400 missile systems. We anticipate these projects to be coordinated by next month.

There are also proposals for small private-sector companies interested in tying up with Russian companies to manufacture spares. Our industry representatives visited Russia in September and I think they have come up with a few proposals. I would in fact be raising the issue that since India depends much on Russian platforms, spares supplies in the future could make the use of these platform easier. Some of the key components would be manufactured in India under this “Make it in India” program. I expect some movement on that also.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2015 17:51

Kanson - that is not what the news item says. Only purchase of S 400

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Oct 2015 17:55

Cain Marko wrote:I still don't get it...why s400? Why now? I ask this in the specific context of the pad/ad...weren't these ready for deployment in 2012 itself according to VKS? Has there been some obstacle in this system? Or are they looking at a new measure altogether for the various reasons cited earlier?

S400 can come in different configuration. Let see what components of S400 is getting negotiated.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Oct 2015 18:07

shiv wrote:Kanson - that is not what the news item says. Only purchase of S 400

Yes, purchase is the word used, Let see!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2015 18:31

I would be much happier to see Ka 226 and MTA come to fruition rather than manufacture of S-400. Purchase of S-400 brings an evil smile on my face. That I don't mind

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 31 Oct 2015 18:48

As long as desi programs are not rescinded, it is Ok.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2015 19:20

small excerpt from s400 wiki:

The new anti-ballistic missiles 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 to enter service in 2014 supposedly add inert/kinetic anti-ballistic capability to the system.[40] The same missiles will also be used by the S-500, which has a clearly stated anti-ICBM role.

The 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 models will be the first Russian missiles with inert warheads, which can destroy nuclear warheads by force of impact, i.e., by hitting them with precision at great speed. No explosives are needed: engineers’ estimates show that a collision at a speed of 7km/s would be sure to destroy just about any flying object.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2015 19:22

the 77N6-N on integration test rig

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2015 19:27

the S400 missiles might fit in where the PAC3, Thaad and 2 lower levels of SM3 are in the below graph.
it will overlap with the AAD & PAD.
the future AD1/2 might go where the upper 2 levels of SM3 are going.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Oct 2015 19:37

Singha wrote:the 77N6-N on integration test rig

9M96 SAM of S-400

Singha , 77N6-N series of missile has nothing to do with S-400 SAM but S-500 series SAM whose goal is anti-icbm and anti-sat in LEO orbit.

Almaz has just released one official picture of S-500 system that is its TEL and judging by its the size of the launcher its a bigger system, You can make your own judgement from official picture

http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/373/re5ri.jpg

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 31 Oct 2015 20:00

Singha wrote:the S400 missiles might fit in where the PAC3, Thaad and 2 lower levels of SM3 are in the below graph.
it will overlap with the AAD & PAD.
the future AD1/2 might go where the upper 2 levels of SM3 are going.

THAAD is the only weapon that I know off that can do (and has done) both Endo and Exo intercepts but is naturally just for anti-missile ops, SM3 is only exo and also for anti-missile ops only with the Block IIA having a very high ceiling . PAC-3 MSE is the only current ground based weapon for both anti-missile and against air-breathing threats for the US Army along with the older patriot variants.

Don't go by the range since these are different weapons. SM3's range is immaterial for threats that are in the terminal phase for example and are inside the atmosphere where the US Navy uses the SM2 and SM6's. THAAD is a weapon that essentially combines portions the endoatmospheric envelope of the SM6 with portions of the exoatmospheric envelop of the SM3 which makes it a unique weapon compared to the USN's AEGIS or the MDA's larger weapons.

member_29089 · Post by **member_29089** » 31 Oct 2015 21:01

er.. Why are we discussing S400 purchase in this thread..

Anyway, NaMo, Doval, Parrikar may know something we don't.

My theory is that the S400 is Paki specific.

** They may want to negate the paki nuclear-tipped cruise missile threat
** Pakis may be aquiring 5-10 chinese stealth planes in the coming years, and S400 might make them think twice before a misadventure.
** Pakis will also be getting Chinese armed drones and need to detect them early and shoot them down if inside our territory
** psychological effect on paki pilots

(not sure if our AWACS and S400 would / should be networked - may require ToT)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Oct 2015 21:14

Can have no fly zone in Pakistan without mobilizing cold start.

Pak will takeover Afghanistan.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Oct 2015 23:01

ramana wrote:Can have no fly zone in Pakistan without mobilizing cold start.

Pak will takeover Afghanistan.

S400 along with Krasukha 4 at Attari practically shut down whole Paki airspace except in paki Shalwar after meal. Now all we need to do is burn through all of their communication and control equipment to periodically administer Thappar on Dufferdeen Miskeen of Pindi. Parrikar will soon be known as Farrikar for being author of Daily Spotting Of Brown Daar on Paki Salwar gaming.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Nov 2015 16:38

Breaking news: BrahMos hits target in maiden test firing from destroyer INS Kochi

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Nov 2015 16:56

BrahMos missile test-fired from new naval ship, hits target - PTI, Economic Times

Supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, with a strike-range of over 290 kms, was today test-fired from the navy's newest stealth destroyer INS Kochi successfully hitting a decommissioned target ship in the Arabian Sea.

The second of Project 15A 'Kolkata-class' guided missile destroyers test-fired the advanced missile system as part of 'Acceptance Test Firing' during a naval drill being conducted along the country's west coast.

The world's fastest cruise missile, after performing high-level and extremely complex manoeuvres, successfully hit decommissioned target ship 'Alleppey' located at a distance covering nearly the full range of the missile with high precision, defence officials said.

"After two successful test trials from INS Kolkata in June 2014 and February 2015, today's test firing from INS Kochi has validated the newly commissioned ship's systems.

"BrahMos as the prime strike weapon will ensure the warship's invincibility by engaging naval surface targets at long ranges, thus making the destroyer another lethal platform of Indian Navy," Sudhir Mishra, CEO and MD of BrahMos Aerospace said.

The navy commissioned INS Kochi on September 30, this year. The 7,500-ton indigenously developed warship incorporates new design concepts for improved survivability, stealth, sea-keeping and manoeuvrability.

The warship has the advanced capability of carrying a total of 16 BrahMos missiles in two 8-cell vertical launch systems, besides other sophisticated weapons and sensors.

BrahMos missile having supersonic speed of Mach 2.8, a very low-cruising altitude of 10 metres at terminal phase and pin-point accuracy, will make the warship one of the deadliest in the Indian Navy fleet, the officials said.

The two-stage BrahMos missile has been jointly developed by India and Russia. It has been in service with the Indian Navy since 2005.

Today's launch was the 49th test-firing of the missile.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Nov 2015 06:56

shitanshu kar on twitter has a few more scorpene pics

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 02 Nov 2015 10:27

Karan M wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:Even if an acquisition of the S400 is considered it will likely be limited by its high costs. A single battery is rumored to cost upto 500 million $. That said it is a very powerful system and much better value for money than those Rafales.
Lets see, at $500 Mn - you could get 4 Rafales or around 8 Su-30s. But at the end of the day a SAM system is basically defensive, when deployed aggressively it can exclude certain aircraft from its zone but it has limitations in terms of reach and self protection too. Whereas a fighter is more of an offensive, flexible system. Strike or interception.. so not exactly apples to oranges.

Yes Sir , I agree but see what a SAM saves a tank regiment? Airbases ? Men in Uniform ? Plus all logistics and other supplies on the. Ground . Sam systems may not have flexible of offensive capacity but they are highly crucial for saving the assets on the ground . so we can't take it out as such. They can save rafale or MKI on the ground and runways on which they take off and land. Plus for AC you need time and load for interception at short notice and make cover flying repeatedly on the skies. But a S400 system can work 24/7 all days all the year on the ground with low operating cost than Fighter AC. So all systems works in tandem to each other to ensure safety . One can't Replace others importance in the war .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 10:35

S-400s dont accompany tank regiments in our deployment model so lets leave that out. Agree with the rest.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 02 Nov 2015 12:04

Devesh Sharma ‏@devesh_s_sharma 13h13 hours ago
INS Kochi 'returning' BrahMos missile to protest against rising intolerance in Modi's India!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 14:08

soumik wrote:I personally think that we may also be looking at buying the S400 as a kind of capability filler making up for our lack of squadrons vis a vis the PLAAF until the IAF is more robustly augmented by the PAKFA/AMCA .
Also used as an offensive defence asset it can also be used to reduce required squadron levels in the western front by denying the PAF the right to fly .

S400, Tejas induction, Pechora upgrade, additional Akash squadrons, Su-30 serviceability up.. whats not to like?

One further thing GADESI on DFI commented that each S400 battery comes with its own bodyguard of sorts made up of an equal number of PANTSIR batteries, could the gurus shed more light on whether we are also going to get PANTSIRS or not?

I don't think we are buying Pantsirs.. no mention of that. Would be overjoyed if we get a few multi band NEBO radar complexes (VHF AESA) w/S-400. They would effectively make the S-400 future proof.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 02 Nov 2015 15:08

S-400 is ideal both in terms of Pak and Chinese threat, we can enforce no fly zones without ever crossing the border. It will be become harder for both sides to find ways into our airspace with aircraft, UAVS, cruise missiles and some SR/IRBMs. If indeed the order is for 12 Systems, this is pretty big since we can effectively cover the entire country with a protective blanket. The long ranges of the existing missiles alone allow 3 Systems to cover the entire Paki frontier and 4 for the entire Chinese frontier, 4 can cover all of the West, south and south west. 1 can cover all of Andaman. With in each System, various battalions and fire units can be spaced out. A battalion can be placed up to a 100 km away from the Command Centre.

Karan Sahab, I am sure the Pantsir will be acquired too, those S-400 sites will be vulnerable especially in our mountainous areas with plenty of known blind spots. The enemy flying low, between valleys can remain hidden, this is where the Pantsir would address known blind spots with both its missiles and auto cannon, it can shred such enemy designs into pieces.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 15:20

S-400 will be part of a multi-layered defense with SpyDer, Akash and MRSAM..
IMHO more than Pantsirs we need SkyShield equivalents for cost effective coverage against PGMs..

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Nov 2015 18:26

Heh Katoch was contemptuous that Akash could not fire on the move. And here is the "designed for mobility" Tor which entered into service in 1986 and its status today, per Wiki.

wn by its NATO reporting name, SA-15 "Gauntlet". A navalized variant was developed under the name 3K95 "Kinzhal", also known as the SA-N-9 "Gauntlet". Tor was also the first air defence system in the world designed from the start to shoot down precision guided weapons like the AGM-86 ALCM[2] day and night, in bad weather and jamming situation.[3] Tor can detect targets while on the move. The vehicle must stop intermittently when firing,[4][5] although trials are being conducted to eliminate this drawback.[6]

Just goes to show how brochure bashing is the norm & how missing unobtainium is then flogged by those who don't care to look into the details..

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Nov 2015 21:46

Cross post.

I just saw a tender for Vane type Parachute system Type A as per spec. no. ARDE/Pinaka/Parachute/01/2015 as per list 3. It is supposed to be used on Pinaka Mk2 to deliver "remotely delivered munitions". So, I started to look up for "remotely delivered munitions, and chanced onthis paper.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Nov 2015 21:56

Cross-post

RCI is seeking collaboration from Thales to develop 384X288 MWIR FPA based refractive system. They have issued a single-vendor tender.

RCI has developed 1st version of IIR seeker based on 128X128 LWIR FPA with a gear drive gimbal system. To improve the resolution, the following developments have been taken up.
a) 384X288 MWIR FPA based refractive system
b) Direct drive servo system
c) A catadioptric optical system

During the development the following issues have been observed.
I. Sun light from well outside the FOV causing image disturbance
II. Direct drive performance limitation during forward acceleration
Thales to take up the study and analysis of these systems and issues.

RCI will provide relevant information as follows.
a) Electro – Optical Subsystem
 Optics Specification
 Optics design and optics unit realization
 EO Testing
b) Seeker Servo System
 System performance specifications, Gimbal configuration, Specifications of servo components used, Mechanical drawings including masses & Moment of Inertias and Transfer functions .
 Test results of frequency response, time response of servo loops ( Stabilization, Position and Track loop), measurement of Field of regard, Isolation and decoupling values.
 Vibration levels , carrier body and trajectory motions expected etc.
 Documentation on design and test evaluation of Seeker servo system.

Thales Study will address the following aspects
a) Electro Optical System
 Stray light computation using CODEV
 Opto-mechanical analysis
 Test methodology for optical systems
 Control of stray light in the present optical systems
 Integration and alignment of optical systems including a refractive system and catadioptric systems
b) Seeker Servo System
 Define design inputs and loop configurations for better servo performance.
 Thales may define additional test procedures ( friction , un balanced mass measurements, resonance curve and LOS stabilization error etc) to be conducted so that RCI will carry out those tests and report the measurements .
 Study on improvement performance in terms of enhancement of stabilization bandwidth and Disturbance rejection i.e. Isolation ( by compensating non linearities like friction , body couplings, cross coupling , Gimbal resonance, flex lead torque due to cooling tube & cables and feed forward path).
 Enhancement of Distrubance rejection at 21Hz sine wave coming from the Helicopter body disturbance.
 Suggestion on hardware issues related to mechanical , electrical, cables & coolant tube routing, test evaluation procedures , tuning of controller to match with hardware results and stabilization requirement with respect to integration time etc. RCI will implement design modifications and carry out the measurements.
 Nonlinear Simulink model for servo loops (Stabilization, Position and Track loops). Simulation on isolation, decoupling, LOS stabilization accuracy plots, imbalance torque due to boost phase accelerations etc. and comparison with hardware results.

Interestingly,

Justification for single tender
Choice of going on single tender to M/S Thales is due to the following reasons.

USA does not respond to requests for selling FPAs also. Hence approaching USA may not yield any useful outcome.

Israeli defence firm are generally interested in selling their product than carrying out such analysis and help.

M/S Thales has completed such study for Programme AD for the front end Optronic seeker. M/S Thales has the expertise in designing and developing IIR seekers. They have provided technology base for developing IIR seekers in Air Defence mode. M/S Thales is ready to take up such study and analyse the issues as given in the scope of workand suggest remedial measures.

Hence single tender procurement is being pursued.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Nov 2015 22:17

Interesting...

Hyderabad-based DRDL which is leading the Countries Astra Missile Project speaking to media personnel confirmed that Current Astra BVRAAMs which boosts of compact dimensions will make them an obvious candidate for Internal weapons bays of the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation fighter aircraft FGFA and Indian AMCA fighter aircraft.

Astra which is single stage, smokeless, solid fuelled missile has a length of 3570mm and a body diameter of 178mm but weights only 154kg which make it lightest in its class.

Astra is capable of targeting high maneuvering 9g enemy targets at high altitudes in the head-on chase up to 80km range while in the tail chase it has range of 20km and 100 km against non-maneuvering targets and at close range missile it can be fired in Lock-on Before Launch (LOBL) mode and is packed with a 15kg high explosive warhead.

MK2 version currently under development reportedly will have a range of 150km and in a tail chase of 35km and will use a dual pulse rocket motor . DRDO is also working on Rocket/Ramjet Propulsion for greater range and enhanced kinematics performance for a newer variant which will make its debut beyond 2020.

http://idrw.org/astra-bvraams-will-be-c ... more-77295

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Nov 2015 22:51

indranil, Long ago IITM had a dept of precision engineering and instrumentation in the Mech Engg. area. All those specs look like from such graduates.

Is this above tender for the Helina?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Nov 2015 23:22

They did not specify, but I am assuming so.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Nov 2015 00:23

Helicopter body mentioned. So yes, helina.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Nov 2015 00:49

KaranM, How many blades for LCH?

I don't get why LWIR is being swapped for MWIR? I understand MWIR FPA has better resolution (384*288)/(128*128). Is it detection at longer range from air?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Nov 2015 07:36

LCH has 4 blades:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/ ... 790876.jpg

IMO, that they are changing FPA for a higher res seeker at this stage shows seeking LOBL at long ranges is definitely a possible consideration.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Nov 2015 07:53

Karan M wrote:S-400 will be part of a multi-layered defense with SpyDer, Akash and MRSAM..
IMHO more than Pantsirs we need SkyShield equivalents for cost effective coverage against PGMs..

Ok, so I went back and looked at the S-400 and BMD. It like the DRDO system is mostly an end game system based on sensor/missile sensor limitations, though the DRDO system is being extended higher up.

Its performance in the role is limited by its radars (~230-400km for 0.4mtr sq targets & LRTR is 600km for 0.1 sqmtr). The radar has to be aligned in a specific BMD role (tilted) & in a specific mode. Plus, no clear indication of what kind of resolution the radars are capable of for long range missiles (1.5k km or more), trajectories tested for, discrimination between decoys. Dedicated radars for specific tailored missiles (eg PDV w/LRTR & MFCR and AAD w/MFCR). The latter are all things our local BMD is working on. The S-400 will be suboptimal in that role. Note the S-300V series were always better and specific for BMD than the S-300 PMU1/2.

Basically, we need the DRDO BMD as the S-400 is not ideal for the role and will have to be compromised (until and unless we overinvest in acquisition & guidance radars for both functions and even there it will have limitations). The good thing about S-400 is it adds another layer for cruise missile interception if radars are on mast and also allows us to target cruise missile carrier platforms esp. fighters.

So the DRDO BMD must go on. The S-400 cannot replace it.
PDV w/IIR or multisensor EKV & AAD to hit leakers w/existing LRTR and MFCR
AD-1 and AD-2 for longer range missiles w/long range LRTR and MFCR

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Nov 2015 08:00

as a data point thales has signed a mou with IISc for projects. as a first step they will sponsor 4 phd students.
iisc is the place where a lot of drdo staff go for Mtech(many) and phd(few).

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/ban ... 825167.ece

The Indian Institute of Science (IISc.) has entered into a Memorandum of Understanding with Thales, a well-known name in aerospace, transport, defence and security sectors, to create a jointly supervised IISc.-CNRS Ph.D. fellowship scheme scheduled to start at the end of 2015. This is aimed at strengthening Indo-French scientific cooperation through close collaborations between Indian and French laboratories, and to boost industrial research by strong inter-connections with academic institutions, a release said.

In the first edition of the programme, up to four fellowships from India will be funded. The students benefitting from these jointly supervised Ph.D. fellowships will have a Ph.D. supervisor in India and a co-supervisor in France (from one of the identified CNRS laboratories). A joint degree option between IISc. and French institutions will be explored in the future.

The proposed scheme for the Ph.D. fellowships involves IISc., selected research institutes in France, Thales in India and France, the release added.