Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2015 13:10

JTull wrote:Any update on IJT Sitara stall/spin tests?

Two possibilities
1. The tests have not yet been done
2. The tests have been done and obviously the plane has recovered from the stall or spin, or else we would not be asking for news

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 29 Oct 2015 14:17

You're a funny guy!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2015 14:37

JTull wrote:You're a funny guy!

Jokes apart I suspect it will have to be a series of tests and a detailed analysis of the telemetry and video data before anything is stated.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 29 Oct 2015 15:06

I agree. HAL is learning it's lessons in managing media better after lot of negative coverage over the years. LCA Mk-1A is an example. So is HTT-40. Hope they also learnt that they now have to deliver on promises.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Oct 2015 15:13

HTT-40 is a very welcome project from HAL nothing less that our Tejas program.

I remember back in 90's when they displayed the HTT-35 it was nothing short of WoW its its roomy cockpit and single piece bubble canopy with excellent view. Sad we didnt follow it then but hopefully HTT-40 will make up for it even for exports

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Oct 2015 15:15

shiv wrote:
JTull wrote:You're a funny guy!
Jokes apart I suspect it will have to be a series of tests and a detailed analysis of the telemetry and video data before anything is stated.

Okay, this is from the chaiwala source who was partially wrong last time:

IJT spin trials are not a one go thing plus these:
a) The aircraft will need to be fitted with Parachute recovery system
b) This system will require modifications on the aircraft
c) The modifications should not affect the aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft
d) These will take time specially given that no more chances can be taken and they are being absolutely sure.

Incase of any errors in news I apologise but couldn't help sharing anyways. I am waiting for the final news myself.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2015 15:39

^^There was an image of the IJT with spin parachute fitted - posted on here several months ago - so I suspect that is one thing that may have been done.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Oct 2015 15:40

pragnya wrote:http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/10/d ... ac-to.html

By Ajai Shukla
HAL, Bengaluru
Business Standard, 29th Oct 15

On Thursday, the defence ministry’s apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) will discuss a project the Indian Air Force (IAF) has tried for years to kill. However, the Hindustan Turbo Trainer - 40 (HTT-40) basic trainer aircraft has not just survived but will take to the skies shortly.

The HTT-40 project is alive because, even as the IAF insisted on a Swiss trainer --- the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II --- and on shutting the HTT-40 project to buy more Pilatus trainers; Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) proceeded with the Indian alternative.

In an unprecedented show of confidence, HAL allocated Rs 350 crore of internal funding for the HTT-40, after the IAF stonewalled HAL’s “detailed project report” (DPR), which asked for funds.

On Thursday, in a triumph for “Make in India”, HAL will brief the DAC that the HTT-40 is on track to fly before the financial year-end. Another two years will go in flight-testing and, by March 2018, the HTT-40 will be ready for serial production.

Despite IAF’s insistence that the HTT-40 cannot be built, three successive defence ministers --- AK Antony, Arun Jaitley and now Manohar Parrikar --- have steadfastly backed HAL. Now, their faith is being vindicated.

“The IAF is working closely with us and is now willing to fund the project. But we have decided to first fly the aircraft and then move the file for funding. This is HAL’s vote of confidence in the project,” said HAL chairman, T Suvarna Raju.

IAF head, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, addressing the media ahead of Air Force Day last month, publicly accepted the HTT-40. “As we get the HTT-40, indigenously built by HAL as a basic trainer, I think we will be well on our way in making up the deficiencies in our pilot training”, said Raha.

The IAF trains its fighter pilots in three phases. Stage-1 training of rookies, done on propeller-driven basic trainers will be on the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II and the HTT-40, when it joins the fleet. Next, pilots will graduate to Stage-2 training on the Sitara intermediate jet trainer (IJT), which is completing development. Then pilots do Stage-3 training on the Hawk advanced jet trainer (AJT), which HAL builds under licence from BAE Systems.

To bring the IAF around to accepting the HTT-40, the defence ministry cut a deal in the DAC in February. It was agreed the IAF would buy 38 more Pilatus trainers under the “options clause” of the May 24, 2012 contract for 75 PC-7 Mark II aircraft. HAL, in turn, agreed to pare down its HTT-40 order to 70 aircraft from the promised 106. HAL said at least 70 trainers were needed for economical production.

Business Standard visited the HTT-40 design centre in HAL Bengaluru, where the first prototype is being assembled in the fabrication hangar. A Honeywell TPE-331-12B engine, a version of which is already flying with the IAF, navy and coast guard on the Dornier-228 aircraft, will power the HTT-40. The engine has arrived and is waiting to be fitted into the first prototype.

The design team calls the HTT-40 a “nice, simple aircraft”, which is unlikely to create problems in the crucial spin and stall trials. These prove that an aircraft a trainee pilot has stalled, or put into a spin, can bring itself back easily into level flight.

“We will set up our production line in HAL Bengaluru, with a rated output of 20 trainers each year. The first year we will build just two aircraft, eight in the second year and 20 aircraft from year-three onwards”, says the design team head.

Since the IAF has committed to buying just 70 HTT-40s, HAL might run out of orders by 2022. However, the HTT-40 could be built in larger numbers if the IAF rejects the Sitara. In that eventuality, the IAF chief has an alternative plan for Stage-2 training to be done using the expanded flying envelope of the Stage-1 trainers.

“As soon as we get the HTT-40… this aircraft will also be used in Stage-2 training if we find that it meets our requirements. If it doesn’t, the HTT-40 will be used only in Stage-1 training”, said Raha.

Isn't HTT-40 specs are better than PC-7-II? Plus, HAL can weaponize HTT-40. So it would probably be better for Stage-2 training than PC-7.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Oct 2015 16:08

shiv wrote:^^There was an image of the IJT with spin parachute fitted - posted on here several months ago - so I suspect that is one thing that may have been done.

Was it for this one or for the previous trial? Or will they leave it like that over time?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Oct 2015 16:09

srai wrote:
pragnya wrote:http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/10/d ... ac-to.html
...
“As soon as we get the HTT-40… this aircraft will also be used in Stage-2 training if we find that it meets our requirements. If it doesn’t, the HTT-40 will be used only in Stage-1 training”, said Raha.
Isn't HTT-40 specs are better than PC-7-II? Plus, HAL can weaponize HTT-40. So it would probably be better for Stage-2 training than PC-7.

I guess that is why it is slotted for Stage II in case it passes the requirements that IAF has for it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2015 16:22

deejay wrote:
shiv wrote:^^There was an image of the IJT with spin parachute fitted - posted on here several months ago - so I suspect that is one thing that may have been done.
Was it for this one or for the previous trial? Or will they leave it like that over time?

No idea really. I was surprised to see that image and it is the only image I have ever seen of a spin chute - assuming that that was what it was. Looked authentic though - at least It looked like what I would expect the size and position of a spin chute to be

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 29 Oct 2015 18:48

shiv, i have not seen it but probably you are referring to this (of LCA) -

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... covery.htm

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2015 20:17

pragnya wrote:shiv, i have not seen it but probably you are referring to this (of LCA) -

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfoc ... covery.htm

Nice! I had not seen this one. But I saw a pic of an IJT on the ground with a tail chute. It was posted on BRF. Need to locate that

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2015 20:22

OK here it is; IJT with spin chute fitted
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013/12/i ... -also.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jz-QSRw_Ft4/U ... /IJT+2.jpg

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Oct 2015 21:44

Deejay,

Is this what you saw the other day? It does look much better in Tippy grey.

Saras at the Ground Vibration Test facility at NAL.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Oct 2015 22:28

indranilroy wrote:Deejay,

Is this what you saw the other day? It does look much better in Tippy grey.

Saras at the Ground Vibration Test facility at NAL.

Yes, I think so. But I saw it from the rare end.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Nov 2015 03:42

Sale of F-35 to India not on the table right now, says US

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 05 Nov 2015 09:44

shiv wrote:
JTull wrote:Any update on IJT Sitara stall/spin tests?
Two possibilities
1. The tests have not yet been done
2. The tests have been done and obviously the plane has recovered from the stall or spin, or else we would not be asking for news

Paanwala reports - tests have failed. major redesign is needed.

IAF is not waiting for this plane.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 Nov 2015 10:23

Not a big issue, HTT-40 is a perfect fit for Stage-2 and CAS duties. LCA trainer with Non after burning Kaveri engine can be our Next AJT

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 05 Nov 2015 14:20

Not sure if this is the most suitable forum,

"http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 663839.cms"

The IAF is in the midst of Exercise Livewire, planned to validate the force's operational philosophy as well as to assist the young generation of air warriors in honing their skills in a near-wartime scenario.

The exercise began on October 31 and involves utilisation of air assets of all types available with the Indian Air Force.

Missions flown till date have placed emphasis on joint operations with the Indian Army and Navy, an IAF statement said today.

Integrating service elements to provide a better understanding of interoperability forms an important part of training.

In addition to air operations, ground defence is also being practised during the annual exercise.

Updation of security around frontline bases is an ongoing process and this too is being put to test during the exercise, it said.

Security of bases is critical. This government has clearly taken steps to protect key installations/offices of forces. Pretty evident at WAC office on NH8 or other places that could be on hit list as well.
Integration also reminds me of work towards ...CDS, seems like that has taken a lower priority as compared to operational preparedness.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Nov 2015 14:28

Gyan wrote:Not a big issue, HTT-40 is a perfect fit for Stage-2 and CAS duties. LCA trainer with Non after burning Kaveri engine can be our Next AJT

Mango question - Can it be used in war in case of need?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 05 Nov 2015 15:44

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Nov 2015 16:42

A Deshmukh wrote:...
Paanwala reports - tests have failed. major redesign is needed.
IAF is not waiting for this plane.

I have heard the same but I have also heard that the developers haven't given up or to be exact "they are still persisting"

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Nov 2015 20:00

IJT looks like a lost cause in current state. If HAL persists, it may hurt their case for HTT-40 as well.

We should take all the learning (from mistakes in design) from this program and apply on HTT-40. We cannot win all the battles, you win some you lose some.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Nov 2015 21:55

Unfortunately, IJTs problems are with its aerodynamics. Can't be carried over to the HTT-40. Deshmukhji, Deejay, did you guys ask for some extra supari in the paan from the paanwala?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 06 Nov 2015 09:11

Hmm... The spin test modifications are either complete or underway. There are number of modifications required for this which includes and is not limited to a separate meter in the cockpit. Not sure what this is exactly, the gent was careful as he knows I post on BRF.

There are some 03-04 specific mods and these have been carried out on the new build / latest build IJT which will be used for Spin Check. I also asked him why I saw recently a red and white painted IJT out on tarmac but he was not very forthcoming - he said it is an older bird, not sure why it was out recently.

On Saras, he said that IAF is not interested at all but ADA is persisting on that too.

Specific to LCA - Pilots and Technicians are coming over for the MCF (TETRA/ technical) course and after the course they are going back to their present Sqns. As and when the Aircraft are delivered the trained manpower pool will be used to be posted to Sqn. Otherwise, people will be wasting time on ground.

TIFWIW - accuracy will need to be checked from other sources.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2015 09:30

There is an old joke about trainee surgeons - "See one operation, do one and then start teaching others"

I suspect spin trials will be more comprehensive and take more time. We need to wait.

I am sad about Saras. It has taken so long after that fateful day when I saw that plane do a touch and go from the golf course and went home after the game to see images of the plane burning on the ground.

Anyone remember this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqt30aI3Zzw

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Nov 2015 09:37

MOD can buy Saras for paramilitary ( BSF/CRPF etc ) and for other government agency if IAF is not interested.

The push propeller design is nice concept provided ADA can complete the test program and get it certified for flight worthiness. As an R&D program Saras would have helped ADA gather useful data and expereince something they can use it in other programs

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2015 09:51

Here is a question that I have never seen asked on BRF:

Any country designing a new aircraft can have accidents and even "write-off" crashes related to that aircraft. But if that happens, on average, how long does the country take to get back to testing? How often do they simply cancel the whole program because of one accident?

Let me ask this about the US, Russia, China, France and the UK

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Nov 2015 10:13

^^^

HAL/ADA/NAL need to use their own test pilots and not completely rely on the IAF/IN for pilots. That would allow for more flexibility and to some degree "greater" risks to be taken. As is the IAF has trust issues with HAL/ADA and it doesn't help the cause if the IAF loses their pilots in R&D accidents while assigned to test pilot duties. They won't want to lose more of their fratinity or their pilots won't want to be posted on that duty--double whammy take risks as test pilot and hurt career prospects.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Nov 2015 10:24

yesterday 3:30 pm, I saw EMB145 radar coming in land @ HAL. looked quite impressive and warlike in dark grey livery.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 06 Nov 2015 11:13

srai wrote:^^^

HAL/ADA/NAL need to use their own test pilots and not completely rely on the IAF/IN for pilots. That would allow for more flexibility and to some degree "greater" risks to be taken. As is the IAF has trust issues with HAL/ADA and it doesn't help the cause if the IAF loses their pilots in R&D accidents while assigned to test pilot duties. They won't want to lose more of their fratinity or their pilots won't want to be posted on that duty--double whammy take risks as test pilot and hurt career prospects.

This is not right way to look at it. IAF or ASTE is not denying test pilots. All test pilots come from ASTE where the TP school is located. All services train their TPs at this school run by IAF. The NFTC Test Pilots are also from the same pool.

I was recently told that the TP pool of retired, old, young but alive is only 300.

Also, again death of the pilot will not stop the programme but design challenges may. If IAF was so averse to death of pilot or if there was some kind of fraternity thing about this IAF wouldn't fly. It perhaps is the most stupid way of looking at it.

Anyways, many TPs have moved to NFTC or HAL for good and are not part of IAF/IN anymore.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2015 13:32

srai wrote:^^^

HAL/ADA/NAL need to use their own test pilots and not completely rely on the IAF/IN for pilots. That would allow for more flexibility and to some degree "greater" risks to be taken. As is the IAF has trust issues with HAL/ADA and it doesn't help the cause if the IAF loses their pilots in R&D accidents while assigned to test pilot duties. They won't want to lose more of their fratinity or their pilots won't want to be posted on that duty--double whammy take risks as test pilot and hurt career prospects.

I have heard that the problem is not test pilots but bureaucratic regulations relating to flight safety certification after an accident. I think both CEMILAC and some other agency are involved. These agencies take time to certify a plane for flight after an accident and this takes ages. I suspect this red tape can be cut down. I think the agency has to decide what caused the accident and then accept that the cause they have identified is rectified.

Please don't take my word as the last word on the matter.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Nov 2015 15:13

deejay wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

HAL/ADA/NAL need to use their own test pilots and not completely rely on the IAF/IN for pilots. That would allow for more flexibility and to some degree "greater" risks to be taken. As is the IAF has trust issues with HAL/ADA and it doesn't help the cause if the IAF loses their pilots in R&D accidents while assigned to test pilot duties. They won't want to lose more of their fratinity or their pilots won't want to be posted on that duty--double whammy take risks as test pilot and hurt career prospects.
This is not right way to look at it. IAF or ASTE is not denying test pilots. All test pilots come from ASTE where the TP school is located. All services train their TPs at this school run by IAF. The NFTC Test Pilots are also from the same pool.

I was recently told that the TP pool of retired, old, young but alive is only 300.

Also, again death of the pilot will not stop the programme but design challenges may. If IAF was so averse to death of pilot or if there was some kind of fraternity thing about this IAF wouldn't fly. It perhaps is the most stupid way of looking at it.

Anyways, many TPs have moved to NFTC or HAL for good and are not part of IAF/IN anymore.

No offense to the TP or the IAF. What I was pointing out is the perception that spews out of news reports and other discussions. When TPs are part of the services, they are not part of HAL/ADA and so for products like Saras, IJT, and HTT-40 where the IAF is not fully into those programs how will IAF TP be assigned to those projects? There are some challenges managing TP for programs if they are not part of your workforce but provided by user who have their own priorities and reservations.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Nov 2015 15:44

NRao wrote:Sale of F-35 to India not on the table right now, says US

Updated: July 30, 2012

"This is not on the table right now. It has not been requested. We have not offered," Andrew Shapiro, Assistant Secretary of State, Bureau of Political-Military affairs, told a group of reporters in a breakfast meeting with the Defence Writers Group.

Given the scrapping of the MMRCA and 'bogged-down' state of the Rafale deal, its more than likely that they've discussed it. I suspect the ACM Raha may have taken a close look at it during his visit to Nellis, NV, which would explain some of his subsequent statements to the press ("I may wish to have Rafale. But there are equally good aircraft...There are alternatives. I cannot say I only want Rafale.")

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 06 Nov 2015 18:17

srai wrote:
No offense to the TP or the IAF. What I was pointing out is the perception that spews out of news reports and other discussions. When TPs are part of the services, they are not part of HAL/ADA and so for products like Saras, IJT, and HTT-40 where the IAF is not fully into those programs how will IAF TP be assigned to those projects? There are some challenges managing TP for programs if they are not part of your workforce but provided by user who have their own priorities and reservations.

You don't get it.

As of now all aircraft with ADA (DRDO) are being tested by NFTC pilot and their Service of origin does not necessarily dictate testing. Plus many pilots have permanently moved to NFTC and not on deputation, so why would IAF exercise control on them?

Similarly their are TPs who are permanently with HAL.

Instead of trying to blame IAF for not letting TPs to test Saras or IJT or HTT 40 have the developers offered them for testing? Can the TPs just start testing aircraft when they are not even on flight line for testing? Has there been even one reported case of testing being held up because IAF did not allow its TPs to test a plane? Has there been a case of a TP refusing to test a plane once it was offered on the flight line for reasons like "not an IAF plane, I won't test it"?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Nov 2015 18:53

Updated: July 30, 2012

thx.

{I always search with a time limit set, but I did not bother to check that time stamp in this case.}

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Nov 2015 20:10

Deejay, thanks for the paan and supari. Anything on what continues to be the problem. Is it still stalling too fast, or is the wing drop still being noticed?

Srai sahab, TPs are not the problem. The highlight of a TP's career is to be able to fly new machines. Nobody shies away from that. NAL is a bunch of scientists with very limited manufacturing power. There is a funds crunch and no interest from the user. Progress is currently at a snail's pace. It is a sad story.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 06 Nov 2015 21:20

No Indranil, sorry, no updates on actual flights.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Nov 2015 03:06

deejay wrote:
srai wrote:
No offense to the TP or the IAF. What I was pointing out is the perception that spews out of news reports and other discussions. When TPs are part of the services, they are not part of HAL/ADA and so for products like Saras, IJT, and HTT-40 where the IAF is not fully into those programs how will IAF TP be assigned to those projects? There are some challenges managing TP for programs if they are not part of your workforce but provided by user who have their own priorities and reservations.
You don't get it.

As of now all aircraft with ADA (DRDO) are being tested by NFTC pilot and their Service of origin does not necessarily dictate testing. Plus many pilots have permanently moved to NFTC and not on deputation, so why would IAF exercise control on them?

Similarly their are TPs who are permanently with HAL.

Instead of trying to blame IAF for not letting TPs to test Saras or IJT or HTT 40 have the developers offered them for testing? Can the TPs just start testing aircraft when they are not even on flight line for testing? Has there been even one reported case of testing being held up because IAF did not allow its TPs to test a plane? Has there been a case of a TP refusing to test a plane once it was offered on the flight line for reasons like "not an IAF plane, I won't test it"?

Deejayji, good to have discussion with you on this topic. Always good to have insider info on how things are structured and work behind the scenes. Those are the very questions that need to be clarified. How has NFTC program evolved in the last 10-years as more and more indigenous platforms for testing have become available along with domestically upgraded platforms? One of the things you pointed out was that permanent move is also possible now. Before it was only deputation. When did that change take place? How does promotions work for the permanent movers? How are roles divided up between services TP on permanent move vs deputed one vs ex-services TP vs HAL-employed TP (are they part of NFTC)? Future evolution? Outsiders like me only hear selective sound bites in news media/public forums and our perceptions are shaped by them like for example one that I have heard a few times is if LCA had crashed, especially early on, it would have been the end of that program and so the designers had to go over and above to ensure mishaps didn't occur (inferred as: flight testing occurred at slower pace).