Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Nov 2015 21:38

More likely the N-sub that we lease belongs to Yasen class (not some rust bucket). Very likely to have TOT that feeds into local SSN program.

So the price of the past lease taken for comparison may not be accurate in this case.

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 04 Nov 2015 21:56

What we need is dal roti and in massive quantities.

Cheap and plentiful cruise missiles
Massive investment in Smerch and Pinaka
Self propelled artillery
NVGs
BPJs
Portable anti tank weapons
Jammers
Secure comms

I wish parrikar would do something on the above items. Else expect TOI oiseaules to start propaganda on how the common jawan is deprived of basic equipment.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 04 Nov 2015 22:38

Well we must Admit the GOI and Mr. Parrikar surprised Me by such a fast pace of getting S400 done. Very Quick By India's defence procurement standards. Well Done. Only Few weapons makes Policy Change Easy . Way To Go.. Plus I also thank our beloved Dr APJ kalam For His Contribution in missile tech which made Us safe .. Shukriya Sir . Let we make India progress on your vision . Be in peace of God . Amen.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Nov 2015 03:20

Kanson wrote:What is the total combined order value of Akash SAM?

IA 2 regiments = 14,000 crore
IAF 1st order = 1,221 crore
IAF 2nd order = 4,279 crore (?)
------------
Total = 19,500 crore

The total cost of the order which includes hundreds of missiles is about Rs 19,500 crore, defence sources said.
Another report says,
The Director of the pivotal Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), A K Chakrabarti, confirmed to Business Standard during an exclusive visit to the Missile Complex that the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Army had already placed orders worth Rs 24,000 crore for Akash surface-to-air missiles.
Total value of Akash order is 19,500 or 24,000 crore ? Similarly, combined order value of MR-SAM/LR-SAM goes for more than 20,000 crores. Important note is these are not final figures; more orders will follow.

With this background, the figure 70,000 crore quoted for S-400 SAM doesn't look absurd.

Or, if we see the news involving two deals...
The mega deal, along with an agreement to get another nuclear submarine, is likely to be formally signed during the visit to Russia of Prime Minister Narendra Modi
then, 70,000 crore figure may be for both N-Sub and S-400.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 001_1.html
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 646_1.html
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 212_1.html
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/bus ... 13537.html

Total order for Akash till date is: The Indian military’s combined orders of AMS, including two radars, have a total worth of Rs 23,300 crore ($5.18 billion).
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/03/20 ... times.html

I hope the MOD clears a second proposal for the 16 Akash squadrons for IAF, whether Mk1 or Mk2.

We need to carefully manage our S-400 stocks and ring them with larger numbers of more inexpensive Akash type SAMs.

How I wish Trishul had not been cancelled!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Nov 2015 07:00

foreign maal is always on table to steal our money and destroy domestic projects.
we really need to fund and drive nirbhay, PAD, AAD, AD1/2, Astra1/2, MRSAM, pinaka2, akash2 to IOC and FOC on a war footing.
1000s of highly paid pensioned new jobs need to be created in drdo for lateral and fresh hires to fill up the pipeline and make sure seniors retiring have a next gen to hand over to.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Nov 2015 13:40

alexis wrote:^^
I dont know if S-400 has ABM capability or even if it has the capability, the version offered to us will not have such capability unless i see the same being demonstrated by IAF.

This is an interesting viewpoint. Based on this it could be said that we need no ABM cover at all because there is no demonstrable proof that Nasr or any other missiles or Pakistani warheads work unless their success is demonstrated to us.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Nov 2015 20:34

I don't understand all this talk ofc imposing nfz over tsp etc...the s400 radars will be limited by los, so oth targeting of low flyers will be possible only till horizon. Prolly a distance of a few dozen km is my guess. A fighter could fly low, pop up at around 100-200 km, release a cruise missile, dive again, Minimizing exposure to the s400. The cm could continue at low altitude and probably won't be detected till it is part horizon. Even worse would be a supersonic cm.

Of course, within the 400 km zone there might be available low level, oth targeting via other systems like the akazh, lrsam, and spider.
The 400km range sounds fab, but it is probably only for lumbering awacs types, which fly at high altitude

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Nov 2015 06:16

From today's TOI print edition:-
Astra to begin trials next month.
Revised Project Completion date December 2016.
To be integrated on Tejas.

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 06 Nov 2015 07:15

Agni-IV to be tested next week
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 848160.ece

Agni-IV, India’s surface-to-surface missile capable of carrying nuclear warheads, will be flight-tested next week, probably on November 9. The trial will take place on the Wheeler Island, off Odisha. The missile can cover 4,000 km. The Strategic Forces Command of the Services will fire the missile with a dummy payload of chemical explosives.

This is the fifth flight-trial of Agni-IV, originally called Agni Prime. Except the first trial, the three subsequent launches were successful. Agni-IV is a two-stage missile. It is 20 metres long and weighs 17 tonnes.

It was last flight-tested in December 2014 for a reduced range of 3,000 km.

K-4, another strategic missile that can be fired from submarines, is under development. It has a range of 3,000 km.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 06 Nov 2015 07:25

10 years in making, Astra advanced air combat missile may be ready in 2016

NEW DELHI: The missile's "muscle-power", in terms of range, has already been successfully tested nine times from Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets since last year. The "brains" will be tested next month. When the brains and brawn are tested together by mid-2016, India will finally be able to brandish its own Astra air-to-air missile.

India may have developed surface-to-surface nuclear missiles like the Agni-V, which can strike targets over 5,000-km away, but has struggled to develop a complex BVR (beyond visual range) air combat missile like Astra for over a decade now.

Once the all-weather Astra is ready, India will join a handful of countries like the US, Russia, France and Israel which have developed such sleek missiles capable of detecting, tracking and destroying highly-agile hostile supersonic fighters packed with ``counter-measures'' at long ranges. Indian fighters are currently armed with Russian, French and Israeli BVR missiles, which cost a packet in the absence of a cheaper indigenous alternative.

"The Astra missile, with a range from 44 to 60km, is coming up very well. I am confident it will be able to meet the revised project completion date of December 2016," said DRDO chief Dr S Christopher, talking to TOI on Thursday.

"After the Akash surface-to-air missile, Astra is the next advanced tactical missile to be made fully indigenously. We are also planning to integrate the missile with the Tejas light combat aircraft. The Astra-II will have a range of 100-km," he added.

The Astra project was sanctioned in March 2004 at an initial cost of Rs 955 crore. But the missile missed several deadlines due to persisting technical glitches, and could actually be fired from a Sukhoi-30MKI for the first time in May last year.

Since then, the 3.8-metre long missile, which flies at a speed of over four times the speed of sound at Mach 4.5, has been successfully fired with "pre-fed, fixed target coordinates" nine times. Next month, the "captive trials" will begin to complete the "electronic loop" or prove the missile's brains with "target lock-on and destroy" capabilities.

For this, the missile will be armed with terminal radio-frequency seekers but without any warheads or propellants. The subsequent stage will see the missile being fired in "full configuration" at "actual manoeuvring targets" mimicking enemy fighters by mid-2016.

DRDO says Astra has "excellent" ECCM (electronic counter-counter measures) to tackle jamming by hostile aircraft, active radar terminal guidance and other features for "high single-shot kill probability" in both head-on and tail-chase" mode. The IAF is keeping its fingers crossed.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 06 Nov 2015 07:29

Hurr durr it took 10 years, so India can't make a BVR

why don't these third rate liberal art drop outs stick to the topic instead of blabbering around like a bimbo?

Astra is here and that's the cool news.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2015 07:42

TSJones wrote:Surely, you guys won't accept delivery of the s-400 until you see the darn thing demonstrated in various scenarios? Geezus.......come on.

The US tests the Patriot system regularly on multiple target types.

Common sense tells us that the buyer must get a demo and that is what is done.

However unless I am mistaken - I suspect only the US actually delivers exactly what is promised because US laws probably prosecute bullshitters. I know for a fact that a lot of promises were not met with Russian, Israeli and Brit systems in the past.

But what I have read of India-Russia cooperation is that Russian methods of doing things fit in well with the medium tech level (and formerly low tech) level seen in India - for example the Front tyres for the MiG 21 were common to the Russian tractors that were also made in India. Als in some cases - Indian stuff was better than the OEM Russian stuff - eg in Sonar and Submarine batteries.

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 06 Nov 2015 08:10

Just a thought, but it looks like China might deploy stealth fighters before the AMCA materializes and the same will probably be sold to the Pakis as well. Given the S-400's claims of anti-stealth capabilities, could there be some thought of providing a counter-balance for the interim period till the AMCA (or FGFA) come online? That's something the Rafale can't provide for all it's capabilities. Put together Anti-Ballistic/ Cruise Missile + Anti-Stealth + Offensive Capabilities and the S-400 starts making sense to me. And if it's deployment gives breathing space for the AMCA, so much the better.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Nov 2015 08:22

vonkabra - in which case the IAF will need to buy additional anti-stealth radars which come as options, namely the multi-band Nebo AESA systems.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Nov 2015 08:40

TSJ
Stop trolling.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 06 Nov 2015 10:37

Saars,
just want to understand this point: is there any difference in time factor: I mean is S400 delivered faster than say Rafales?

The first Rafales will come in by 2017 at the earliest, more likely 2018.

Link

I mean,"when will s400 be inducted?"

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 06 Nov 2015 10:37

Question is, will the Russians let us integrate the Barak MRSAM and AKash with the S-400 Radar for a seamless AD grid. Outsourcing, make in India and all that can come later.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Nov 2015 10:38

If we really want warning time nothing beats AWACS. I am waiting for Parrikar to push through another 6 Embraer based AEW. Ideally, a dozen of these along with 6 phalcon + 6 DRDO AWACS.

Even better would be to see some Airborne weaponized AWACS. Whatever happened to the Boeing ABL project?

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 06 Nov 2015 11:01

Paul wrote:Question is, will the Russians let us integrate the Barak MRSAM and AKash with the S-400 Radar for a seamless AD grid. Outsourcing, make in India and all that can come later.

I am not Sure but mostly its yes as other Russia platforms are integrated with other stuff mostly isreal and Indian stuff. I read somewhere that all these radars will be integrated mostly greenpine radar with S400. We are good at integrating different systems within one. Exemple SU30 MKI .. S400 MKI

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Nov 2015 12:39

I wonder where that leaves the BarakMR 120km? the 9m96E family overlaps this and the rus will be loathe to leave any meat on the table.

could be DOA now.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Nov 2015 12:53

Singha wrote:I wonder where that leaves the BarakMR 120km? the 9m96E family overlaps this and the rus will be loathe to leave any meat on the table.

could be DOA now.

Barak-MR is 150 kM range

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Nov 2015 13:28

Singha wrote:I wonder where that leaves the BarakMR 120km? the 9m96E family overlaps this and the rus will be loathe to leave any meat on the table.

could be DOA now.

Yes. While S-400 order provides exponential air defensive capability to the IAF, the size of the order being reported (i.e. 12 systems or $11 billion) means indigenous SAM R&D efforts, including JVs, are not a necessity. S-400 system uses multiple missiles to do SR, MR, LR and some BM intercepts. Given these systems will be around for the next 3 decades, indigenous efforts will languish quite a bit. For the user, I don't think they care whether the product is indigenous or import as long as it fulfills its high set of requirements.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 06 Nov 2015 15:33

10 years in making, Astra advanced air combat missile may be ready in 2016

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 682035.cms

NEW DELHI: The missile's "muscle-power", in terms of range, has already been successfully tested nine times from Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets since last year. The "brains" will be tested next month. When the brains and brawn are tested together by mid-2016, India will finally be able to brandish its own Astra air-to-air missile.

India may have developed surface-to-surface nuclear missiles like the Agni-V, which can strike targets over 5,000-km away, but has struggled to develop a complex BVR (beyond visual range) air combat missile like Astra for over a decade now.

Once the all-weather Astra is ready, India will join a handful of countries like the US, Russia, France and Israel which have developed such sleek missiles capable of detecting, tracking and destroying highly-agile hostile supersonic fighters packed with ``counter-measures'' at long ranges. Indian fighters are currently armed with Russian, French and Israeli BVR missiles, which cost a packet in the absence of a cheaper indigenous alternative.

"The Astra missile, with a range from 44 to 60km, is coming up very well. I am confident it will be able to meet the revised project completion date of December 2016," said DRDO chief Dr S Christopher, talking to TOI on Thursday.

"After the Akash surface-to-air missile, Astra is the next advanced tactical missile to be made fully indigenously. We are also planning to integrate the missile with the Tejas light combat aircraft. The Astra-II will have a range of 100-km," he added.

The Astra project was sanctioned in March 2004 at an initial cost of Rs 955 crore. But the missile missed several deadlines due to persisting technical glitches, and could actually be fired from a Sukhoi-30MKI for the first time in May last year.

Since then, the 3.8-metre long missile, which flies at a speed of over four times the speed of sound at Mach 4.5, has been successfully fired with "pre-fed, fixed target coordinates" nine times. Next month, the "captive trials" will begin to complete the "electronic loop" or prove the missile's brains with "target lock-on and destroy" capabilities.

For this, the missile will be armed with terminal radio-frequency seekers but without any warheads or propellants. The subsequent stage will see the missile being fired in "full configuration" at "actual manoeuvring targets" mimicking enemy fighters by mid-2016.

DRDO says Astra has "excellent" ECCM (electronic counter-counter measures) to tackle jamming by hostile aircraft, active radar terminal guidance and other features for "high single-shot kill probability" in both head-on and tail-chase" mode. The IAF is keeping its fingers crossed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Nov 2015 18:37

by going slow on the Barak8 to fund its own iron dome/david sling, israel missed a huge opportunity with the Barak MR which is surely DOA.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Nov 2015 19:08

^^ viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5092&p=1928455#p1928455

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Nov 2015 19:17

Singha wrote:by going slow on the Barak8 to fund its own iron dome/david sling, israel missed a huge opportunity with the Barak MR which is surely DOA.

Its not just that... they killed their hard won credibility thanks to the Barak and squandered it over Barak-8.. the result is their proposal to develop a national missile defence system for India (which would have meant a competitor to the S-400) was clearly rejected, and the S-400 selected instead..

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Nov 2015 19:33

Singha wrote:by going slow on the Barak8 to fund its own iron dome/david sling, israel missed a huge opportunity with the Barak MR which is surely DOA.

Do you mean the IA's MR-SAM? Will they purchase an alternative (TEL-based Akash Mk2) or drop it entirely in favour of an LRSAM i.e. S-400 (which is an import for all its strengths)?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Nov 2015 19:36

ldev ji, on the paki missiles, the longer shaheen once will be aided by post-mid course gravity to slam us. i'd think we would use our own PAD & AAD for ballistics. I am thinking S 400 more on the longer range cruise missiles.

per wiki
Operational
range
400 km (40N6 missile)
250 km (48N6 missile)
120 km (9M96E2 missile)
40 km (9M96E missile)
Speed
Mach 6.2 (48N6)
Mach 2.9 (9M96E2)
Mach 2.3 (9M96E)

so, mach 6 for 250km range is what the max we can look for.
Austin, what would be 40n6 max mach?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Nov 2015 22:31

ldev wrote:On the other hand, because of the mobile nature of the S400 system, 100% against Pakistan and to a certain extent against China, it will be able to track, if placed say 100 kms from the Pakistan border, any ballistic missile launch, anywhere in Pakistan, the missile will have a gigantic rcs at launch and the S400 will be able to detect it out to 600 kms and use the 40N6 missile to its full range of 400 kms.

However, development/deployment of the AAD/PAD has to continue to protect against longer range IRBMs/SLBMs.

Hmm Idevji, I am a bit skeptical of this...how can the S400 radar overcome LOS limitation? IOWs, it can truly detect and engage low altitude launches within the horizon limitation ~ 100km at most if the mast mounted radar provides that kind of elevation. At very long ranges and high altitudes - the radar should detect the missile, but well past the launch phase?. However, the missile should become visible to the radar sometime in the boost phase. once it starts tracking, it is only a matter of time before the incoming target is within the range of its own missiles...

Just my understanding of this fwiw.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 07 Nov 2015 06:26

Thank you Disha and Idev, wonder what kind of RCS the guidance radar can track @ max range...400km of missile.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 07 Nov 2015 11:03

See after 7:50 (or soo) loved the multiple launches of this missile system

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 07 Nov 2015 11:36

Dear All,
After little search on YouTube . found the S400 Factory in Russia . must see video

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/?gl=IN#/watch?v=dGavg6MZX1Q[/youtube]

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 07 Nov 2015 13:23

BrahMos land missile successfully test-fired
Vimal Bhatia,TNN | Nov 7, 2015, 12.50 PM IST
JAISALMER: The Indian Army successfully conducted test firing of BrahMos land-attack cruise missile against a designated target at Pokhran test range on Saturday morning.

The missile was test launched by a mobile autonomous launcher (MAL) and met all the mission objectives.

"BrahMos missile system, the most lethal and potent weapon system for precision strike available with Indian Army, has proved again its effectiveness in today's successful launch," Sudhir Mishra, chief of BrahMos Aerospace remarked telephonically.

Dr. S Christopher, secretary (defence R&D and DG DRDO) congratulated Indian Army and BrahMos Aerospace on the successful flight test.

The Indian Army has already inducted three regiments of BrahMos in its arsenal. All are equipped with Block-III version of missile, which was recently tested on May 8-9, 2015.

The land-attack version of BrahMos has been operational since 2007. The fire-and-forget BrahMos has the capability to take on surface-based targets by flying a combined hi-lo trajectory, thus evading enemy air defence systems.

Inclusion of the powerful weapon system in Indian Army has given it a distinct operational advantage to knock down any enemy target even in the most difficult and hidden terrains.

The BrahMos missile, having a range of 290-km and a Mach 2.8 speed, is capable of being launched from land, sea, sub-sea and air against sea and land targets.

BrahMos is a joint venture between DRDO of India and NPOM of Russia.

Half century! Was checking how many tests Tomahawk had gone through , and found

The Tomahawk is a highly accurate, GPS enabled precision weapon that has been used over 2,000 times in combat, and flight tested more than 500 times.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Nov 2015 14:23

I wonder what sort of things can be localised in this whole S-400 package?

Surely the logistics and launcher vehicles can be sourced locally. I mean, it took them almost 17-18 years to locally source the tyres for Su-30s. We don't servicing rates to drop because we can't source an axle for a truck, and end up paying arm and a leg for everything.

Then we do have excellent missile production experience, so final assembly of those could also be done locally.

Anything else?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Nov 2015 14:32

Couple of pics to keep jingos happy

First, what is this missile? It is not a Buk or kashmir. Dafuq is it? The single arm launcher is in neutral position as well ... so it is coming from the VL cells.

This one is a Brahmos...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Nov 2015 14:53

The first one is Klub ofcourse , pointed nose indicates its the supersonic 2nd stage anti-ship variant

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 07 Nov 2015 16:51

ranjan.rao wrote:The Indian Army has already inducted three regiments of BrahMos in its arsenal. All are equipped with Block-III version of missile, which was recently tested on May 8-9, 2015.

wiki wrote:Block III had advanced guidance and upgraded software, incorporating high manoeuvres at multiple points and steep dive from high altitude. The steep dive capability of the Block III enables it to hit targets hidden behind a mountain range.

Does it mean the first two regiments are also upgraded to Block 3? hinting that all are mountain capable and then more indigenization is also achieved

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Nov 2015 19:38

Austin wrote:The first one is Klub ofcourse , pointed nose indicates its the supersonic 2nd stage anti-ship variant

Thanks Austin. I was too used to blunt nose missiles popping out!

So this is the 3M-54E round.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Nov 2015 20:29

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:Just high level claims but no specifics about BMD tests (what kind of targets, trajectories, target discrimination) or what anti-jamming measures (raw power or more ECCM ie filtering or receiver sensitivity or coding..) or the specific tests which would tell us what kind of ECM was used.
Sure when IAF buys these they will ship one S-400 system to you to find these capabilities

For every Indian system we have inducted or tested we have a fair amount of data on several of these parameters. In short, what you have more or less admitted is there is no clear data easily at hand for the S-400 which is my exact point. There's been a lot of "we are now BMD proof now we have S-400" sorta posts, but very little to actually indicate that is the case. One can at least postulate the ECCM will be good based on general advances in Russian industry & prior history w/S-300PMU1/PMU2 etc but the actual tests against BMD optimized targets would tell us what is what.

Jokes apart I will see if there is brochure of radar that will list that out

Its not brochures but actual tests we need to track down. The radars themselves are firmly far behind the LRTR class system anyhow but that's the tradeoff for mobility & iterative development (vs abinitio) S-400 took.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Nov 2015 20:33

Cain Marko wrote:Thank you Disha and Idev, wonder what kind of RCS the guidance radar can track @ max range...400km of missile.

scary question especially considering advancements in stealth skins to deflect/absorb radiations., and i dunno if any electro-optical ir sensor can track and lock at very long ranges.

right now advantage ballistics with stealth technology especially the IRs and ICs. we need AAD/PAD to think about this in detail. i dunno even if the israeli radar systems suffice. better get MAD to deny the first strike.