Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 02 Dec 2015 07:43

^+1 absolutely.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 02 Dec 2015 08:07

The Bullet Proofs Jackets are not being ordered due to two main reasons inspite of funds being allocated. One - absurd ever changing requirements. Second- Multiple manufacterors which prevents a friendly bribe infused single vendor deal.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Dec 2015 09:18

I'm in Chennai for the last few weeks for my organization's continuity of business from the last deluge and ensuring that our Global & Indian customer commitments are met. I log in here and find this

kancha wrote:Harpreet ‏@CestMoiz But the Indian soldier / policeman fighting terrorists every single day, does so without the benefit of the same. Wonder how many MN Rais / Santosh Mahadiks would have been alive today

Kancha, I understand its Harpreet's comments, but before you posted this, did you confirm whether M N Rai or Santosh Mahadik die because of lack of BPJ's?

My understanding is that field areas, there is ample supply of BPJ's. Yes, those not working in the field, like inside EME Workshops or Hospitals, are not issued BPJs. Every IN Ship has adequate BPJs. Those who visited IN ships for Navy Day would've seen it.

1. No BPJ offers 360 degree foolproof protection. BPJ is basically a jacket with pockets for inserting armour panels. When a terrorist fires a burst, bullets may hit in the seam between pockets, or face or neck. If a full body suit is used, like bomb disposal squads use, mobility & agility is severely affected.

Even in Bomb Disposal Squad suits, only a visor covers the face where a bullet or bomb shrapnel can hit. And sappers know fully well that the Bomb Disposal Suit is for their psychological security, it wont save them from a high explosive IED or mine.

2. BPJ affects mobility - which is why officers & men wear them just before getting into action.

3. BPJ affects agility - which is why troops often discard them. In the Battle of Takar Gur, the US quick response team helidropped discarded their BPJ to lose weight, because they were finding it difficult to climb the mountain.

4. BPJ is uncomfortable - Try this yourself. Buy a photographer's jacket, stuff its pockets with stones, and go about your daily work & chores. Which is why personnel often do not wear it.

Now unless someone has specific information that M N Rai or Santosh Mahadik died because they did not have BPJs, this entire emotional nonsense needs to stop.

Gyan wrote:The Bullet Proofs Jackets are not being ordered due to two main reasons inspite of funds being allocated. One - absurd ever changing requirements. Second- Multiple manufacterors which prevents a friendly bribe infused single vendor deal.

Do you know of any specific cases or is this your fertile mind at work?

negi · Post by **negi** » 03 Dec 2015 07:49

Corruption in forces as my father says trumps anything else civilians are capable of because a lot of the stuff is not due to bad people but bad processes , while other parts of our system are being reformed the forces are the most rigid and stubborn about any kind of reforms . Best example is the logistics where IA has preferred vendors for rationing anything from say a pair of socks to a bottle of water , the amount of money involved here is so high that there are many distributors and manufacturers who only make for the IA these brand names do not even exist for outside world for they are selling at such jacked up prices to the IA that if they were to sell it outside in civillian space they would be called out and forced to reform . Also once you are in a vendor list IA is obliged to buy from that vendor only this creates highly bloated up prices anything available today in outside market for 'X" is purchased by the army for 'Y' where Y > X by a huge margin . IN and IAF are very small in terms of their logistical footprint and hence the rot is a bit less in these services.

My father tells me that when grandpa retired from the IA the bribe required to get the pension on time was INR 5 , iirc pension at that time was <100 INR a month. These were great Nehru and Indira days when everything and everyone in Sarkar was corrupt.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 05 Dec 2015 21:53

tsarkar ji, Col MN Rai took a burst in his chest. I am sure that over time, more details regarding how Col Santosh died would also become known.
But in the specific case of Col Rai, it may not have been due to non availability of a BPJ, but due to the fact that he might not have been wearing one. That said, I see that you agree with me that the present lot of BPJs is bulky, unlike a kevlar vest which affords more freedom of movement.

(Btw, that twitter handle is mine and these are my own thoughts)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Dec 2015 00:53

kancha, i have posted the details in the SF thread. Suffice to state there is a significant shortage of modern BPJs and NVG authorized holding is also low. This is GOI data from a parliamentary submission. I would suggest you tweet to Raksha Mantri so he expedites the process and has the Army prioritize these from their side too.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 06 Dec 2015 01:14

From what I heard, Col Mahadik got hit in the head. There's a picture somewhere of troops carrying him out too.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 06 Dec 2015 02:18

I was reading about Paul Statzer, a US Army staff sergeant who had his jaw and entire left side of his head and a big chunk of his brain blown off but not only survived but became fully mobile and can walk, talk and play sports. I think there is hope for the TA Colonel who got injured and had his lower jaw shot off, that he will recover fully and will not be maimed for the rest of his life.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Dec 2015 02:59

Thats with the US medical system which insurance warts apart is the best in the world with regards to cutting edge tech and processes. In India, I wonder if the TA Col will even get a fraction of that care.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 06 Dec 2015 10:10

Karan M wrote:Thats with the US medical system which insurance warts apart is the best in the world with regards to cutting edge tech and processes. In India, I wonder if the TA Col will even get a fraction of that care.

I don't know so well about US, but our RR and similar hospitals are very good with excellent Orthopedic departments. I hope it goes well for the injured Col.

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 06 Dec 2015 10:25

Raja Bose wrote:From what I heard, Col Mahadik got hit in the head. There's a picture somewhere of troops carrying him out too.

The bullet that killed him struck his neck, an area that was not protected by his bullet-proof jacket.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/colonel- ... ay-1245051

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2015 10:49

Raja Bose wrote:I was reading about Paul Statzer, a US Army staff sergeant who had his jaw and entire left side of his head and a big chunk of his brain blown off but not only survived but became fully mobile and can walk, talk and play sports. I think there is hope for the TA Colonel who got injured and had his lower jaw shot off, that he will recover fully and will not be maimed for the rest of his life.

Airway, blood vessels and brain. If these three are recoverable - then life can be salvaged and rebuilt. Rebuilding jaws has been commonplace even since my student days (usually for cancer) -it's only got better now.. Usually injuries at and above eye level tend to be fatal unless a glancing blow simply takes off some skull and scalp

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 06 Dec 2015 12:10

His tongue is intact so I am hoping he fully regains ability to speak and eat. How do they reconstruct the lower jaw if its completely blown off (I cannot even imagine how horrific it looks). Where does the bone get grafted from?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2015 13:17

Raja Bose wrote:His tongue is intact so I am hoping he fully regains ability to speak and eat. How do they reconstruct the lower jaw if its completely blown off (I cannot even imagine how horrific it looks). Where does the bone get grafted from?

Rib used to be the norm. Newer prosthetics may be an option

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 06 Dec 2015 15:10

There are lot of options to reconstruct the lower jaw- flaps , a holding prosthesis etc to give form and later artificial dentures etc. These are all standard operations .They are done for bth trauma and cancer patients. Plastic surgeons and orofcial and ENT surgeons are involved in these.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Dec 2015 19:15

The Research & Referral (R&R) Hospital in Delhi is the best hospital in the army. But for the most advanced, it compares with best out in the India. Further, if there is requirement of treatment outside of army healthcare system, army will take care of it.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Dec 2015 19:26

A relative of mine in SF was sent to South Africa by the IA for facial reconstruction after a road accident.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Dec 2015 19:45

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 065166.cms

A serving Army man was arrested on Sunday by Delhi Police from Siliguri in West Bengal in connection with the alleged ISI-linked espionage racket, taking to five the number of people taken into custody in the case.

The accused, identified as Farid Khan, is an Army hawaldar who allegedly shared secret information with suspected intelligence operatives.

"He was arrested from Siliguri today by the eight-member Crime Branch team which was rushed there," joint commissioner of police (Crime) Ravindra Yadav said.

This is the fifth arrest in connection with the espionage racket allegedly headed by suspected ISI operative Kafaitullah Khan.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Dec 2015 20:01

shiv wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:His tongue is intact so I am hoping he fully regains ability to speak and eat. How do they reconstruct the lower jaw if its completely blown off (I cannot even imagine how horrific it looks). Where does the bone get grafted from?
Rib used to be the norm. Newer prosthetics may be an option

The titanium mesh seeded with bgf and stem cells can be used. Result is dramatic in the case of cancer. In this particular case, I'm assuming that the skin and underlying tissue have been lost due to trauma posing a greater reconstructive challenge.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2015 20:27

rohitvats wrote:The Research & Referral (R&R) Hospital in Delhi is the best hospital in the army. But for the most advanced, it compares with best out in the India. Further, if there is requirement of treatment outside of army healthcare system, army will take care of it.

I am myself impressed at the work that is happening in India now - stuff that I used to think I would never see in India. Makes me happy and proud - and glad that somehow, somewhere, something in the system is working.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 06 Dec 2015 20:50

Army ditches recruitment rallies for online process

Now, the Army would have a databank of candidates and would call them according to space and re sources available.

As many as 15,000 youth underwent physical tests as part of the new process in the third week of November. Many officers have called the move revolutionary.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 06 Dec 2015 23:10

Army chief reviews last phase of 'Drad Sankalp' in Thar

JAISALMER: Army chief General Dalbir Singh reviewed the final validation phase of the training exercise 'Drad Sankalp' by the Indian Army's Southern Command at Thar on Saturday.

The focus of the exercise has been on validation of operational preparedness of the formations and units to the evolving doctrine of the Indian Army to launch swift offensive in the desert terrain in a network-centric environment in close coordination with long range artillery and Air Force.

The exercise presented an excellent opportunity to the formations and units to gauge their operational preparedness while operating in a highly intense, dynamic and fluid operational environment.

Participation included entire spectrum of ground forces in conjunction with Indian Air Force.

The might of the Indian Army was on full display in fire power demonstration. Most modern equipment in the inventory of the Indian Army fired with precision in cohesion with each other, with the main attraction being T-90 tanks, which are counted amongst the most technologically advanced tanks in the world. During the exercise, combined arms of infantry and mechanized forces practised swift manoeuvres in coordination with airborne troops. Networked radars, UAVs and aerial surveillance platforms ensured continuous flow of information resulting in battlefield transparency which enabled commanders to assess and modify their operational plans to meet the emerging challenges. Such large scale exercises are conducted once in three to four years, in keeping with the changing security environment.

The exercise presented an excellent opportunity to the formations and units to gauge their operational preparedness while operating in a highly intense, dynamic and fluid operational environment. Participation included entire spectrum of ground forces to include fighting arms, combat support arms duly supported by services and logistics, Force Multipliers like Army Aviation, Special Forces and Electronic Warfare System in conjunction with Indian Air Force.

In the changing scenario, the Indian army looking to the increasing terrorism along with new challenges across the border, is trying to make its war talent strong and better. Especially in the context of fighting war in desert, Indian army units artillery, armed, mechanized together demonstrated it fire power.

Lethality and might of Indian Army was fully on display in this Fire Power Demonstration. Most modern equipment in the inventory of the Indian Army fired with precision in cohesion with each other, with the main attraction being T-90 tanks, which are counted amongst the most technologically advanced tanks in the world. As a part of the demonstration, a synchronized attack by Armoured, Artillery and Mechanized Infantry, was conducted to capture an enemy location. This started with Artillery bombarding the enemy location from a distance of 18-20 kms. The tanks then assaulted on the enemy location with speed and pin point accurate firing which was soon followed by dismounted attack by the Mechanized Infantry following the Tanks. A similar attack was launched wherein T-90 Tanks, BMP andArtillery guns destroyed enemy targets with their might and fire power The demonstration was conducted with speed and audacity, which reinforces the fact that the Indian Army is well equipped, trained and capable of achieving success in the contemporary battlefield of the future.

In this demonstration, army hit the targets using emergence sensor, satellite imagery and electronic sensor.

Defence Spokesman Lft. Manish Ojha said The Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General Dalbir Singh visited the exercise area yesterday. He interacted with the participants and witnessed the conduct of critical manoeuvres in deserts. The Army Chief was briefed by General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Southern Command, Lieutenant General Ashok Singh on the operational setting, plans and training objectives of the Exercise.

The COAS reviewed integrated operational manoeuvres of the formations, the aspect of synergy between Army and Air Force in launching coordinated air-land battle and the ability to orchestrate battle in network centric environment. The Army Chief complimented the formations and units for their high standards of training and plan execution at operational & tactical levels. Addressing Commanders, he also reiterated the importance of technology and innovation in the fast changing battle scenario, high standards of physical fitness, mental alertness and maintenance of high state of readiness of the equipment to take to field at short notice.

During the Exercise, combined arms of infantry and mechanized forces practices swift manoeuvres in coordination with airborne troops. Networked radars, UAVs and aerial surveillance platforms ensured continuous flow of information resulting in battlefield transparency which enabled Commanders to assess and modify their operational plans to meet the emerging challenges.

Such large scale exercises are conducted once in three to four years as part of operational validation of doctrinal tenets which are dynamic in nature, in keeping with the ever changing security environment.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2015 03:58

rohitvats wrote:The Research & Referral (R&R) Hospital in Delhi is the best hospital in the army. But for the most advanced, it compares with best out in the India. Further, if there is requirement of treatment outside of army healthcare system, army will take care of it.

I lived pretty close to R&R and my goonda kallij is right behind it. Those guys are some of best in the world.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Dec 2015 09:44

>>I am myself impressed at the work that is happening in India now - stuff that I used to think I would never see in India. Makes me happy and proud - and glad that somehow, somewhere, something in the system is working.

For paying customers, Indian private hospitals are in my opinion the best value for money proposition in the world. The whole world should look at India as their location of choice for a range of treatments and care. Especially the care part. No one cares for a patient better than an Indian nurse. Some doc could probably explain what the treatments are.

Definitely something to make us happy and proud.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 07 Dec 2015 09:51

^^^Adding to the care part, no one makes better nurse than ladies from democratic socialist republic of Kerala. They're absolutely fantastic. Well read, speak good English and very professional. There was a time when Army Medical Corps was overwhelmingly dominated by them. While ladies from larger geography have made appearance, most are still from Kerala.

Even in the leading private hospitals in NCR, you'll find nursing staff to be from Kerala. Lately, women from NE states have also made good inroads. Very professional, courteous and competent people. I'd trust them with my life (as do so many soldiers in Services) any day.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Dec 2015 10:04

^^I have a story to tell in that regard. My (now old) mum wanted to be a nurse. She was born just before independence. The division of properties in Kerala during and after the British era, and Commie interventions - along with massive family incompetence - had a tremendous impact on our lands in the Palakkad-Mannarkad zone. To the point where by the time she was about 5-6 yrs, they were reduced to one meal a day. The tharavad was devastated, for the most part (my grandma was the "tharavatillama" - basically the mother of the tharavad). Desperate situation. Mom could not go to school past the age of 9, and along with that ended her hopes of becoming a nurse. She taught herself English however, and then she taught me. But she refuses to speak it - blaming the ills of India on three parties: the Brits, Gandhi and the Commies (in that order). I may have imbibed some of that

Needless to say, to me mother is god.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 07 Dec 2015 10:07

But, why Gandhi?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Dec 2015 10:28

In her view, his words and actions were primarily responsible for our losses - and it was quite a bit. Plus, remember she lived through the Moplah rebellion - which for some reason she attributed to Gandhi. She does not hate the guy or anything, just no regard. So when there's a song and dance about Gandhi on some issue on TV or wherever, she may say something like "awhhh.. namalley ellavaraiyum ubadhravicha motathalayan"... Translates roughly as: "Awhhh, the baldy who harmed us all"... Father of course just looks heavenward and and asks for tea.

I have been cursed with a "big picture" mind, so I don't share her views on that. But I'm not going to make a case about it, against the woman who sacrificed her life so I could have the one I'm having now.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 07 Dec 2015 10:34

I think your mother is a very intelligent woman that she was able to look through the smoke and mirrors.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 07 Dec 2015 10:43

Thanks JohneeG, she is

It's OT. Back to Indian army. Sorry people...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Dec 2015 13:40

RoyG wrote: The titanium mesh seeded with bgf and stem cells can be used. Result is dramatic in the case of cancer. In this particular case, I'm assuming that the skin and underlying tissue have been lost due to trauma posing a greater reconstructive challenge.

Spoke to a friend whose line is this sort of stuff and say that fibula osseo-myo-vascular free graft is routine now.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 09 Dec 2015 19:47

http://www.financialexpress.com/article ... er/165410/

Jawans’ wait for 1.86 lakh bullet-proof jackets gets longer
The procurement of the jackets was approved by the defence acquisitions council in Oct 2009
By: Huma Siddiqui | New Delhi | November 14, 2015 12:57 AM

Fresh request for proposals (RFPs) are expected to be floated by the ministry of defence (MoD) for the procurement for 1,86,138 bullet-proof jackets, which was approved by the defence acquisitions council in October 2009.
According to defence ministry sources, “In a meeting which took place last week between the six vendors and senior army officers, the decision was taken to scrap the existing RFP for 1 lakh-plus bullet-proof jackets. The six Indian vendors, including SM Group, Indian Armour, Shri Lakshmi Defence Solutions, Tata Advanced Materials and MKU, failed to meet the technical parameters or GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) laid down by the army.”
At a cost of Rs 50, 000 each, these 1.86 lakh jackets were to be inducted by 2012 and this was to be followed by another order of 1.67 lakh jackets. However, as many as 41 RFPs of the Indian Army had fallen through over a period of 18 months ending March 2012 because they had not met the technical parameters.
“That not one of the six competitors could come up with a jacket that meets the army’s requirement clearly indicates that it wants a jacket that no manufacturer is in a position to make and probably not even the most beleaguered troops are using anywhere in the world. Initiating a new case with revised specifications might well end up in a similar situation,” pointed out an industry observer.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Dec 2015 20:48

“That not one of the six competitors could come up with a jacket that meets the army’s requirement clearly indicates that it wants a jacket that no manufacturer is in a position to make and probably not even the most beleaguered troops are using anywhere in the world. Initiating a new case with revised specifications might well end up in a similar situation,” pointed out an industry observer.

tragi-comedy

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Dec 2015 21:29

There should be two levels of GSQR, current and future.

Current/immediate GSQR should be peer reviewed by people in industry/R&D before approved and future one should only be targeted for research agencies like DRDO. Also it might be what IA wanted was not yet produced in India or under export restriction.

A little pre-planning and foresight will help a lot.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Dec 2015 22:51

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... %20BPJ.pdf

RFI for Bullet Proof Jacket, 22 Jul 2010

Although RFI does not talk about specific technical parameters, I do not see anything in particular or special which IA asked for. Unless they were asking for protection against 7mm burst at close range (which they face regularly and still doable), don't understand what they could have asked that no one could manufacture.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 10 Dec 2015 00:19

Sid wrote:There should be two levels of GSQR, current and future.

Current/immediate GSQR should be peer reviewed by people in industry/R&D before approved and future one should only be targeted for research agencies like DRDO. Also it might be what IA wanted was not yet produced in India or under export restriction.

A little pre-planning and foresight will help a lot.

THAT Would be Pilatus redux

a. Would set a Future GSQR that no vendor anywhere on earth would be able to satisfy & no other major airforce have the need even. Will sent DRDO in that wild goose chase with progressively higher and higher hoops to jump through as time goes by and desi geek&nerds make dogged progress.

b. In the mean-a-while, will get the brightest and shiniest available in the international market; will continue import the same in piece meal basis with latest upgrades at greatest price hikes showing various urgent reasons and finally close the future GSQR with tarring and feathering of DRDO for their utter incompetence to deliver unobtenium.

c. If the new pesky 'techno' defmin dares to cut through the shenanigans, will provide anonymous quotes to assorted LeMs about tinkering with the quality of the systems at the cost of the poor jawan's life. *

The drama will go on. All honest and above board only. Anyone pointing out such obvious pattern that the current process throws up in almost every new procurement would be asked to take a gun and stand in siachen before opening their mouth. Bloody civilians!!!!

* This is doing many rounds nowadays if anyone taps the grapevine and can hear about the grave danger of LCA, Insas Excalibur and other 'khadi gramodyog' products being shoved down the throat. Sometimes even coming out in the open ala how bad Aakash is for mobile army.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 10 Dec 2015 00:56

^^that's true, easier said then done

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Dec 2015 02:40

Sid wrote:http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... %20BPJ.pdf

RFI for Bullet Proof Jacket, 22 Jul 2010

Although RFI does not talk about specific technical parameters, I do not see anything in particular or special which IA asked for. Unless they were asking for protection against 7mm burst at close range (which they face regularly and still doable), don't understand what they could have asked that no one could manufacture.

Some of the things could be opposing requirements like
* Max level protection zz for lowest weight yy
* Mulitple hits xx without deteriorating protection levels zz
* Protection coverage xyz vs low maneuverability impact abc
etc.

It would seem like it's another case where the user pulls the best tit-bits from multiple brochures and then lumps it as a requirement without understanding the limits and trade-offs of design.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Dec 2015 02:42

Sid wrote:http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... %20BPJ.pdf

RFI for Bullet Proof Jacket, 22 Jul 2010

Although RFI does not talk about specific technical parameters, I do not see anything in particular or special which IA asked for. Unless they were asking for protection against 7mm burst at close range (which they face regularly and still doable), don't understand what they could have asked that no one could manufacture.

This earlier GSQR was superceded by another one. See the excerpt i posted earlier.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Dec 2015 06:21

Today it is 44 years since the start of the "Meghna airlift" and the "Sylhet airlift". These events were the masterful use of helicopters by the IAF and Army to transport troops across broad rivers in east Pakistan, bypassing Pakistani centers of resistance and bottling up Pakistani troops so that the Indian army advanced towards Dhaka and liberated Bangladesh in what was later to be called a "Blitzkrieg without tanks"

It was this logistical effort that shortened the war and for those of us who were watching the war from newspapers and radio it was amazing and exhilarating to see a war start, feel anxious and then a sudden jubilant end in just over 2 weeks!

I have tried to tell the story of that airlift in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7v9-UJ4xj0